Pauper Banlist

  • #1
    I recently got into pauper, and came across the pauper banlist in the WOTC Pauper Defintion.

    After a bit of digging here and on the web, I couldn't find anything detailing when these bans were made. I was curious if anyone knows when? I can see how Cranial Plating fits into affinity, and Frantic Search is obviously a powerful card, but I'm curious if these bans were reactionary or did the format start with these?

    Just for fun: I also noticed that a couple of extremely common pauper cards are banned in Modern. Currently Cloudpost and Preordain. What are some cards you'd nominate for banning in pauper?

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    RWUBG
  • #2
    I know that Frantic Search was reactionary, as Temporal Fissure/some other decks were playing it to great effect. As far as I know, the other banned cards have always been banned (though I'm not sure).

    There are a few cards that could be considered ban-worthy, but I think Glimmerpost may be the most reasonable. Post decks are the most prevalent "oppressive" archetype in the metagame, as they not only hose some aggressive/rogue decks, but also other control decks. I think it's sort of like Zoo was in Modern (before Wild Nacatl was banned), in the sense that all other forms of control decks feel obsolete when compared to post variants.

    I could certainly be wrong though. Other cards that could be banned (though probably shouldn't since they don't warp the metagame in a significant way) include Invigorate and... maybe Rite of Flame? Something to mitigate the frequency of turn 2 kills in the format.
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  • #3
    I can speak from experience regarding Frantic Search. It was banned last June after Familiar storm took over the pauper meta.

    A sample decklist:
    The plan is to draw many many cards by using cost reductions/free spells to generate tons of mana, then Temporal Fissure all of your opponent's permanents, plus your Mnemonic Wall so you can just do it again every turn for the rest of the game (Wall+Fissure bounces two things, so even if they have a 1-drop to keep playing off their single land, they're still completely locked out). Frantic Search was a totally broken enabler for this deck.
    Not only was the deck too good, but it took forever to win--unlike, say, TPPS, the "one big turn" from Familiar storm didn't kill you; it simply bounced all your stuff and left you to be beat down with 1- and 2-power dorks--and it was generally miserable to play against. Discard didn't work, because they just outdrew you, aggro just got stopped cold by the reset--except for burn, in case you were wondering about the sideboard--and Hindering Touch wasn't enough of an answer for control. It was exceedingly difficult to put on enough pressure while stopping their game plan, because either multiple bouncelands or multiple Familiars could combine with the untap spells to generate enough mana to go off.

    As for Cranial Plating, that ban has been with the format since before it was sanctioned. I know there was no small debate about the banning in the player community back before it was an official format, but I don't know exactly when it happened--it was before my time.

    EDIT: "There were two popular versions of Pauper in existence before we created ours: one that banned Cranial Plating, and one that banned Cranial Plating and the artifact lands. We agreed that Cranial Plating was too good, but it is our belief that the format can handle an Affinity deck without it, so we chose to leave the artifact lands alone." - Tom LaPille, 19 December 2008
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  • #4

    EDIT: "There were two popular versions of Pauper in existence before we created ours: one that banned Cranial Plating, and one that banned Cranial Plating and the artifact lands. We agreed that Cranial Plating was too good, but it is our belief that the format can handle an Affinity deck without it, so we chose to leave the artifact lands alone." - Tom LaPille, 19 December 2008


    Both excellent responses! Thanks for sating my curiosity. I can definitely see how infuriating that Temporal Fissure deck could be, and I find that tidbit about the splitting of the format fascinating, thanks for digging that up.

    Quote from DimeCollectoR

    There are a few cards that could be considered ban-worthy, but I think Glimmerpost may be the most reasonable.


    Glimmerpost over Cloudpost? I don't necessarily disagree, I'm just curious why you think that. I take it that it's not that you're banning the lifegain, but just trying to limit the ramp to 4. Still I think with 8 posts being so extremely core to that deck, you're probably neutering it by the removal of the Glimmerposts anyway. Do you think that anyone would use Cloudpost without Glimmerpost?

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  • #5
    The mono green post version with crop rotation and the likes could likely survive through the banning of Glimmerpost in some fashion, as could the mono white rebel one, I suppose. I'm not sure the U/R Post deck in the form we currently know it would still exist without Glimmerpost, but it just might. In any case I'd agree with banning Glimmerpost over Cloudpost as that should neuter the decks enough without completely invalidating the strategy, should it come to it. Right now the Metagame seems healthy enough and has adapted to the abundance of UR Post lists a fair bit.
  • #6
    While I agree there is a lot of power in posts I don't agree with the banning of Glimmerpost. Currently we have MUC, IzzetPost, and Storm, which stay on the top three, but rotate in order as far as most played. Killing off IzzetPost still leaves storm and MUC heavily dominating the format and I'm not sure that's really where we want to be. IzzetPost is getting heavy complaints, but interestingly enough its no more prevalent then MUC or Storm and no one cries over them.

    Deck List:
    Pauper
    BMBCB
    UBUB Control/TeachingsBU

    Ha! My Pauper UG Post Deck Showed!

    Classic
    BPoxB

    Legacy
    GB Eva Depths (Primer By Me) BG


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  • #7
    Frantic Search's ban wasn't neccesary to me. Mainly because at the time it was banned - the Temporal decks weren't even being played that much.

    But Cranial Plating was a MUST ban from what I've heard. And after seeing Modern Affinity in action - I can understand why.

    ---
    As far as future bannings...

    The pauper meta itself seems pretty healthy. Someone over at PDC magic recently did an 8 day study of EVERY game played in the dailies (he watched each one) and he did a breakdown of all the matches. I think the main point of it was to show what beats what; but really - it did a better job in showing that just about all 12 of the archtypes in pauper have about a 50% winning percentage (other than MBC which did horrible; and UB Post which hardly anyone played).

    Here's the chart: http://pauperpalace.files.wordpress.com/2012/03/pauperresults1.jpg

    However, does that mean Glimmerpost shouldn't be banned??? A card (imo) should only be banned if it's preventing a lot of other decks from being competative. I honestly don't know any decks that could become more competitive if UR Post was hurt. I don't know of any Tier 2 decks out that that are being held down just because of Post.

    ---

    I do feel like there should be a legacy like version of pauper though. With a HUGE ban list (and restricted cards too). The problem is - the MTGO people seem content on just supporting Classic Pauper, so it probably wouldn't take off.
    Last edited by MedRage: 3/14/2012 11:01:57 AM
  • #8
    Cranial Plating was a necessary ban, from the get-go. It's a healthy deck that is able to serve as a "Check," for other deck's power.

    Frantic Search, equally so. It was almost impossible to beat, and was boring as hell to play against.

    8post is fine. It's not oppressive (even if I hate playing against it- given that I run MBC), and the current format is diverse. If it weren't for the fact that Draft and Standard are good for once, Pauper would still be the most balanced format.


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  • #9
    Quote from Zelderex
    Frantic Search, equally so. It was almost impossible to beat, and was boring as hell to play against.


    Goblins, Affinity, TPPS, and Burn all had pretty good matchups against it (especially pre-board; post-board Temporal decks could transform and became a little more tricky.) What really had a hard time against it was control; and I don't think that's a bad thing. I mean, control decks still have a hard time against it; but it's a little more manageable for them now.

    I agree with the banning though; I can recall 5-10 minute turns or endless bouncing... Which can potentially discourage people from playing the format.
  • #10
    Quote from MedRage
    Frantic Search's ban wasn't neccesary to me. Mainly because at the time it was banned - the Temporal decks weren't even being played that much.


    While it was on the way down as the banning came into effect, it was topping out before that at 20-25 percent of successful dailies.

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    Modern
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    RU Splinter Twin UR
    UGR Scapeshift RGU
    UR Storm RU
  • #11
    Personally I would like to see Storm nurfed, but as I understand control decks find it fairly easy to handle.

    Modern doesn't have the tools to handle Pre T4 storm. (Hydroblast et)
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  • #12
    Honestly, the fast mana of Cloudpost doesn't really accomplish anything extremely degenerate in Pauper, short of rebel chains. If either locus land were banned, UR Post would just turn into UR Tron - which is worse, but not terrible. The reason Cloudpost is banned in Modern is that 12-post decks playing Vesuva could power out some extremely degenerate things with all the mana, but UR Post is just a big mana control deck.
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  • #13
    Quote from straanger
    Both excellent responses! Thanks for sating my curiosity. I can definitely see how infuriating that Temporal Fissure deck could be, and I find that tidbit about the splitting of the format fascinating, thanks for digging that up.



    Glimmerpost over Cloudpost? I don't necessarily disagree, I'm just curious why you think that. I take it that it's not that you're banning the lifegain, but just trying to limit the ramp to 4. Still I think with 8 posts being so extremely core to that deck, you're probably neutering it by the removal of the Glimmerposts anyway. Do you think that anyone would use Cloudpost without Glimmerpost?


    Cloudpost is very slow to achieve a win condition. However, it is able to stall the game/lock it out because of Glimmerpost. In tandem with Capsize, UR/Grixis/Mono U Post can continuously gain life at a rate that other decks cannot outperform. It also reduces redundancy in their decks by a significant amount. That was basically my reasoning.
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  • #14
    Quote from JustSin
    While I agree there is a lot of power in posts I don't agree with the banning of Glimmerpost. Currently we have MUC, IzzetPost, and Storm, which stay on the top three, but rotate in order as far as most played. Killing off IzzetPost still leaves storm and MUC heavily dominating the format and I'm not sure that's really where we want to be. IzzetPost is getting heavy complaints, but interestingly enough its no more prevalent then MUC or Storm and no one cries over them.


    How are you 100% certain that a lack of Izzet would allow Mono U (I'm assuming you're talking about Faeries?) and Storm decks to dominate (also, what is your definition of dominating the format)? It might just allow other control decks (that are inferior to the Post synergies) to actually see play, not to mention non-control decks that are unplayable because of terrible post matchups. Just making conjecture, and I'm not saying you're wrong, but I do think you are asserting too much authority/certainty on what the metagame would look like in the event of some Post-related banning. Also: there are complaints about Storm in Pauper, in fact, I'm kinda surprised you haven't heard someone complain about dying on turn two to a combo deck in this format.
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  • #15
    Glimmerpost is the card to ban if it becomes degenerate, for sure. I still have gripes about the ban of Cloudpost in Modern. No Glimmerpost means that the deck has to cope with a horrible Aggro matchup, but that's besides the point, and you can argue about the Modern banlist for almost six solid months (just ask Slipknot).

    I had totally forgotten about Rebel-Post. How're the prices looking on that these days?


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  • #16
    Quote from DimeCollectoR
    How are you 100% certain that a lack of Izzet would allow Mono U (I'm assuming you're talking about Faeries?) and Storm decks to dominate (also, what is your definition of dominating the format)? It might just allow other control decks (that are inferior to the Post synergies) to actually see play, not to mention non-control decks that are unplayable because of terrible post matchups. Just making conjecture, and I'm not saying you're wrong, but I do think you are asserting too much authority/certainty on what the metagame would look like in the event of some Post-related banning. Also: there are complaints about Storm in Pauper, in fact, I'm kinda surprised you haven't heard someone complain about dying on turn two to a combo deck in this format.


    No I totally understand and glad to try and explain my thoughts (and do apologize if I sound too sure, I'm not trying to convey myself as an expert, as I don't even think Wizards has any idea how it all lands). Ok so to justify this I'm going to use this as a base of numbers that I can refer to. Now this is not a list based on number total showing up to play, but instead number who managed at least a 3-1 showing over a specific period of time, thus in my opinion showing the "strongest" decks in the format based on the proposed idea that the more often a deck lands "in the money" the better off it is considered.

    Now based off those numbers alone (and yes I realize they are weeks old, but its a solid base as I haven't finished this past week's numbers) we see that Storm, MUC, and IzzetPost are the top three showing decks. Now MUC I am talking about the many variations of Delver/Faeries control that we see too often and excluding the "big mana" MUC, which runs 8post. If you look at the #3 and #4 decks we have Goblins and Affinity, which show 10 and 19 places below third respectively. If you wanted to go out and say the way to show without is just slide one up then you'd have Infect in the top five based on that week. Just looking at a four day section of last week we see MUC at 36, IzzetPost at 33, and oddly Storm at 23.

    The decks that I feel are losing out based on the fact that they cannot compete are those who cannot run the sideboard LD such as MWA, which I believe personally is falling out of favor due to the increase in creature control in the format, not simply because of the IzzetPost match (and even then Prismatic Strands is a great slow). Even then you take a look at MUC and Affnity and those lists don't even care about posts.

    If you take a look at the decks and the showings I think that removing Glimmerpost is kind of the wrong problem. This would pretty well slow if not kill IzzetPost and DimirPost as well as eliminating the rare rogue deck of Rogues, the big mana green, and big mana blue control. You mentioned the increase in other control decks as a result of the void and outside of new creations the only other ones I can think of is MBC and Teachings, which will still struggle to MUC, which I think is the real thing that people seem to be overlooking.

    When we look at IzzetPost I feel like the worse card in this match is actually Capsize. This is the one that gets the most abuse in this match as it allows Glimmerpost to be played to no end. If there was any card I would remove from that deck then Capsize would be it. It eats time, it makes the game non-interactive, and is capable of stupid plays. Restricting it is no help either due to Mystical Teachings and Forbidden Alchemy.

    Now MUC in all its forms is I guess a necessary evil, however I feel its too dominate in a format that can't get help against it. Counter, draw, go. It's horrible to play against no matter which deck you're running. When it comes to sideboarding etc. I still feel that beating MUC comes down to luck in them getting a bad draw.

    I also totally agree that Storm is a hard thing to beat too and have personally lost turn 2 against a version featuring Kiln Fiend. That being said, however, I have only lost turn 2 once. Three or four is not uncommon, but I guess I don't hate it as much because I usually run black featuring main deck Echoing Decay (totally not helpful when you face the Grapestorm versions though!). What it really comes down to with Storm is the fact that it's like the only combo deck for Pauper and getting rid of it would unhinge R-P-S.

    Ok so that was a bit longer wall of text then I expected, but if you didn't get where I was going with it all the bottom line is this... I don't think that getting rid of 8post decks will increase other decks showings as much as you think since they already have hard games to compete with in MUC and Storm.

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    Pauper
    BMBCB
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    Ha! My Pauper UG Post Deck Showed!

    Classic
    BPoxB

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  • #17
    Quote from Zelderex

    8post is fine. It's not oppressive (even if I hate playing against it- given that I run MBC), and the current format is diverse. If it weren't for the fact that Draft and Standard are good for once, Pauper would still be the most balanced format.


    Quote from BonSequitur
    Honestly, the fast mana of Cloudpost doesn't really accomplish anything extremely degenerate in Pauper, short of rebel chains.


    This is generally my feeling, and I don't think that it deserves to be banned. 8post doesn't seem to be too powerful, but I think something that was mentioned a few times is just how these posts are slipping into several of the most popular archetypes right now, in MUC and IzzetPost / Storm varieties. Still, it seems mostly healthy, but I'd be weary of when it starts to become included in other popular archetypes.

    Quote from DimeCollectoR
    Cloudpost is very slow to achieve a win condition. However, it is able to stall the game/lock it out because of Glimmerpost. In tandem with Capsize, UR/Grixis/Mono U Post can continuously gain life at a rate that other decks cannot outperform. It also reduces redundancy in their decks by a significant amount. That was basically my reasoning.


    I definitely see where you're coming from now. I thought you were focused more on one of Glimmerpost's attributes than both combined.

    Quote from JustSin

    When we look at IzzetPost I feel like the worse card in this match is actually Capsize. This is the one that gets the most abuse in this match as it allows Glimmerpost to be played to no end. If there was any card I would remove from that deck then Capsize would be it. It eats time, it makes the game non-interactive, and is capable of stupid plays. Restricting it is no help either due to Mystical Teachings and Forbidden Alchemy.


    This card has been mentioned a lot of time in this thread. This card really is brutal. I let out a resounding sigh every time I see it played against me and either get locked / lifegained every turn for the rest of the game.

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  • #18
    Ok I hate to double post, but I just finished the numbers on 3/5-3/11 and it reinforces my earlier point...

    1. MUC - 73
    2. IzzetPost - 57
    3. Goblins - 43
    4. Storm - 32
    5. Infect - 28

    I think by focusing on 8post you're really missing the bigger picture including DE #3529220 where 7 out of 14 decks that "placed" were MUC in one form or another. How can that be overlooked???

    Deck List:
    Pauper
    BMBCB
    UBUB Control/TeachingsBU

    Ha! My Pauper UG Post Deck Showed!

    Classic
    BPoxB

    Legacy
    GB Eva Depths (Primer By Me) BG


    Monthly Academy Showcase!
    An Introduction to Competitive Pauper! *Updated*
    Pauper Meta Analysis & What Wizards Left Out!
    Found at MTGO Academy!! Same Great Series, Same Great Content, Great New Home!! (yes that is me shamelessly trolling for more readers :))
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  • #19
    Quote from JustSin
    Ok I hate to double post, but I just finished the numbers on 3/5-3/11 and it reinforces my earlier point...

    1. MUC - 73
    2. IzzetPost - 57
    3. Goblins - 43
    4. Storm - 32
    5. Infect - 28

    I think by focusing on 8post you're really missing the bigger picture including DE #3529220 where 7 out of 14 decks that "placed" were MUC in one form or another. How can that be overlooked???


    So, not at all trying to force any point of my own, or take away from what you're saying. But I'm curious if you have any idea, even roughly, how many of those MUC and Storm decks had posts? I mean, if IzzetPost is the only thing using 8post, and doesn't even hold a majority, then clearly it seems pretty reasonable.

    The point is, I don't know if anyone is really concerned about IzzetPost, but just that 8post is becoming a powerful tool for several archetypes including MUC.

    People are strange.
    RWUBG
  • #20
    I haven't been paying attention in a while, people have been playing 8-post in MUC?
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  • #21
    Quote from BonSequitur
    I haven't been paying attention in a while, people have been playing 8-post in MUC?


    I don't know about top8 finishes, but I've seen this a number of times in modo, first around the casual scene and then some in tournament practice. But I'm not sure it's making it into tournaments yet. DimeCollectoR mentioned it too:

    Quote from DimeCollectoR
    In tandem with Capsize, UR/Grixis/Mono U Post can continuously gain life at a rate that other decks cannot outperform.

    People are strange.
    RWUBG
  • #22
    Quote from straanger
    So, not at all trying to force any point of my own, or take away from what you're saying. But I'm curious if you have any idea, even roughly, how many of those MUC and Storm decks had posts? I mean, if IzzetPost is the only thing using 8post, and doesn't even hold a majority, then clearly it seems pretty reasonable.

    The point is, I don't know if anyone is really concerned about IzzetPost, but just that 8post is becoming a powerful tool for several archetypes including MUC.


    storm doesn't run posts that'd be silly lol but there were only 2 MUC decks that were using that old 8post list, its not very popular and not very strong imo

    Deck List:
    Pauper
    BMBCB
    UBUB Control/TeachingsBU

    Ha! My Pauper UG Post Deck Showed!

    Classic
    BPoxB

    Legacy
    GB Eva Depths (Primer By Me) BG


    Monthly Academy Showcase!
    An Introduction to Competitive Pauper! *Updated*
    Pauper Meta Analysis & What Wizards Left Out!
    Found at MTGO Academy!! Same Great Series, Same Great Content, Great New Home!! (yes that is me shamelessly trolling for more readers :))
    Check me out on Twitter & Get a little MTGO Therapy

  • #23
    Quote from JustSin
    storm doesn't run posts that'd be silly lol but there were only 2 MUC decks that were using that old 8post list, its not very popular and not very strong imo


    Yeah I'm not even sure why I mentioned Storm there. Anyway it looks like we'd simply be banning post because of IzzetPost and that's definitely not the way to go.

    People are strange.
    RWUBG
  • #24
    Quote from JustSin
    Ok I hate to double post, but I just finished the numbers on 3/5-3/11 and it reinforces my earlier point...

    1. MUC - 73
    2. IzzetPost - 57
    3. Goblins - 43
    4. Storm - 32
    5. Infect - 28

    I think by focusing on 8post you're really missing the bigger picture including DE #3529220 where 7 out of 14 decks that "placed" were MUC in one form or another. How can that be overlooked???


    Personally I don't like combining Mono U Faeries with Mono U Control simply because the creature counts/game plan are so different. Granted, Faeries still occupies a vast majority of Mono U decks that are around, but its creature base is very soft to other premiere decks in the format IMO.
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  • #25
    Delver Aggro, Faeries and MUC are sort of on a continuum. Honestly if there's a card that is breaking the format, it's the synergy between Cloud of Faeries, Spellstutter Sprite and Gush.
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