Don't let me confuse you into thinking that I am going to run a deck without islands.
Traditionally I've run a 15/14/11/10/10 Setup (M/S/I/P/F) due to abilities and my ideal curveout is
3 Mountain
2 Swamp
1 Plains
1 Island
1 Forest
The need for blue seems to be concentrated in the small drops while things like this:
Seem to really be putting late game islands as a liability.
Not running islands forbids the upkeep on 3 elder dragons but I rarely see them as the number of 8 drops has increased.
Do you think its worth it as a general strategy to not drop islands after T4 or as a general rule of thumb would you still curve into islands preemptively?
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Out of the blackness and stench of the engulfing swamp emerged a shimmering figure. Only the splattered armor and ichor-stained sword hinted at the unfathomable evil the knight had just laid waste.
I've been playing my island as my 8th land unless I get an ability needing it otherwise. Islandwalk is the most common land walk and there are a number creatures that cannot attack without the opponent controlling an island. I haven't looked at the number closely enough to determine if it is even worth playing islands at all.
I agree with xger, unless I get something like waterfront bouncer or Vodalian Illusionist or some other bonkers ability I try to domain only on 8 and even then I might only go for a forest and plains.
I generally play an island much earlier than most. I like playing an island on turn 3, to avoid losing islandhome guys like Vodalian Knights. While this does leave me more open to islandwalk guys, I just hate getting blank creatures and try to minimize that happening. Also, islandwalk is not the most common landwalk. I just did a gatherer search and swampwalk is the most common with 49 creatures, followed by forestwalk at 42, and islandwalk comes in third with 36 creatures (one of which is Stormtide Leviathan which will chomp you regardless).
I generally play an island much earlier than most. I like playing an island on turn 3, to avoid losing islandhome guys like Vodalian Knights. While this does leave me more open to islandwalk guys, I just hate getting blank creatures and try to minimize that happening. Also, islandwalk is not the most common landwalk. I just did a gatherer search and swampwalk is the most common with 49 creatures, followed by forestwalk at 42, and islandwalk comes in third with 36 creatures (one of which is Stormtide Leviathan which will chomp you regardless).
Hm, I thought island walk was the most. Maybe I'm thinking they are the biggest? As far as early drops and island home the odds just don't sway me.
Islandwalk is the biggest among the fat creatures. Inkwell Leviathan being the one most people think of. The only 8 drop with forestwalk is Chorus of the Conclave which almost nobody is happy to see.
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Out of the blackness and stench of the engulfing swamp emerged a shimmering figure. Only the splattered armor and ichor-stained sword hinted at the unfathomable evil the knight had just laid waste.
Here's the thing. Benthic Behemoth and Inkwell leviathan are the biggest landwalkers. However, if you are on the domain plan, the only time this matters is on turn 8 if your opponent is on the play. If you play your island turn 8 you are just as open to the fatties after that as if you played it on turn 3. Obviously if you are on the "just play mountains and swamps" plan a lot of people seem to like this will not be the case. But as I previously stated, I prefer minimizing the amount of blanks I hit, including the elder dragons. You are three times as likely to hit a blue elder dragon as your opponent is to hit behemoth, and inkwell isn't too much of a concern as most games top out at 8.
Well let's be fair if you're doing it right your island is played on t8, so the new donk doesn't matter. I have a preference of 3 mtn 2 forest then one of each of the others but that's just me.
Well let's be fair if you're doing it right your island is played on t8, so the new donk doesn't matter. I have a preference of 3 mtn 2 forest then one of each of the others but that's just me.
Why 2 forest? I only care about forests if I'm going to 10 and might hit Krosan Cloudscraper.
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Out of the blackness and stench of the engulfing swamp emerged a shimmering figure. Only the splattered armor and ichor-stained sword hinted at the unfathomable evil the knight had just laid waste.
I'm somewhat revising my thoughts on 9 drops but 8's still seem better in a vacuum.
Any thoughts on that?
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Out of the blackness and stench of the engulfing swamp emerged a shimmering figure. Only the splattered armor and ichor-stained sword hinted at the unfathomable evil the knight had just laid waste.
There's actually only 103 8 drops; two of them are unhinged cards. Some thoughts on your previous post:
I am very surprised that you consider Bringer of the Blue Dawn "bad." The ability to continue to make drops while building to 11, 12, and eventually 15 drops can be VERY strong if you can survive more than a few turns. I also would not consider red bringer an "out" card. It really only helps you race except in specific situations like when you have a sac outlet. It's also worth noting that while you consider a 5/5 trample a bad creature, you left several creatures such as Thousand-legged Kami off your bad 8 drop list, and the difference between such a creature and a bad bringer is pretty negligible.
In regards to your instant out count, I think you should count Sanguine Praetor on the list of 8 drops, as we can assume you would be able to leave a swamp up if you are deciding between 8 and 9 drops. By that rationale Bloodfire Colossus could be an instant out as well, but we cannot assume you have both R and B to leave up, and in situations where Bloodfire would save you Kuro most likely would as well. So if you need an instant out, I would count the percentages at 3.9% for 8 drops (only counting either Praetor or Colossus), 3.3% for 9 drops if Kuro will not save you, and 6.7% if Kuro will save you. So if you need an out RIGHT NOW, figure out if Kuro will work and act accordingly. It's also occasionally relevant that Kederekt Leviathan is the only slam-bang, save you from anything creature on this list.
Overall, we seem to agree that 8 drops are usually better if you are behind, while 9's are better if you are ahead. If it is even, I think the decision is harder. 8 drops are more high risk, high reward, while 9 drops have a more consistent average power level and provide less "oops I win" or "oops I lose" moments.
Don't get me wrong I don't think bringer of the blue dawn is bad in an average game of Momir when you are even or ahead, however it can be pretty disappointing when your opponent has an overwhelming board position or has you on a <6 turn clock (the times when you would be trying to flip an out). Especially if they have some dumb thing like a darksteel colossus a bringer of the green dawn could by you some extra time against some ground monsters or red dawn could put him on just as tight of a clock and help unclutter the board. Its great if you can wait 6 turns to coin toss an emmy or 7 to get a Draco though. I have just lost so many games when I flipped nine repeatedly got bringer of the esper's dawn and then went back to 8 because my opponent got some monster like stormtide and they didn't really affect the board or do anything to his big monsters.
I counted bloodfire and sanguine predator as not instant outs in the case you are trying to answer a broken earlier drop (they exist) or something with higher toughness than 6 or you are on a reasonable clock 4-5 turns and are on 8 thinking of going to 9. I should probably classify it as etb outs.
Today because I have too much time I went through all of the CMC6+ creatures in magic (yes all 969) and am running some stats on them like flier percentages, etb outs, "sorcery outs", game swingers, wreck your boards, instant wins, and instant losses, blanks, and average dude size. Expect to see a write up tomorrow. I can also share the excel doc I am working out of in case you want to add something.
But back on the topic at hand I was blown out by sundering titan with blue elder dragon in play the other day. Afterwards I really feel like having domain is a huge liability rather than an asset. I think it is best to keep BBBRRRGG going to 8, I feel it minimizes vulnerability to land walk and sundering titan while maximizing the ability to use abilities and pay for upkeeps. As many late game haymakers (6+) cards have a (B)BB or RRR upkeep or require (B)BB or Rx to activate or have a powerful secondary G ability.
Sundering Titan makes you think that every time it falls on you, but it doesn't guarantee anything. I had an opponent come back from losing 4 lands and beat me the other night, so I'm not worried about it.
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Out of the blackness and stench of the engulfing swamp emerged a shimmering figure. Only the splattered armor and ichor-stained sword hinted at the unfathomable evil the knight had just laid waste.
Sundering Titan makes you think that every time it falls on you, but it doesn't guarantee anything. I had an opponent come back from losing 4 lands and beat me the other night, so I'm not worried about it.
It's also a less than 1% chance to hit. Just keeping the 5 elder dragons in mind being worried of Sundering Titan seems ill advised. I've won plenty more games where keeping an elder dragon alive was key than I've lost to Sundering Titan
My preferred opener is UR into a maximum of BBB and hitting domain by 8. I usually try to maintain two blue sources in play or hand until I make my 4CC, because of the bounce effects on theMasters. Yes, it sucks that Sundering Titan gives you the business, but it's not always the be-all end-all; you can still win with existing fliers if your opponent bricks.
There are a heck of a lot of BBB activations and upkeeps, so I try to hit it by turn six (Demonic Hordes lock isn't good or bad, per se). Being able to activate things like Helldozer and Kalitas, Bloodchief of Ghet really allow you to just upend games in your favor.
As for the Elder Dragons, they still pack a punch as 7/7 fliers with technical upside (the worst is probably Nicol Bolas because hands are usually empty at this point, followed by Chromium). Vaevictis Asmadi usually leads the pack in flexible firebreathing. I usually want to domain up for those types of cards anyways.
I read this thread much earlier today and it stuck in the back of my mind. Well, it turns out I played a momir event today and I was actually digging playing 5 lands! I know one event doesn't exactly constitute an adequate sample size but you've converted me to a believer in 5 color. Firebreathing and effects similar to pestilence demon are still important but I like to have 1 of each land available. I actually won a game off of Angus Mackenzie HAHAHAH my opponent was none too happy.
Anyway I just wanted to say thanks and that yes I believe it comes down to luck and personal preference. I am far too lazy to do any math in defense of this new stance but all I know is that sundering titan is about a 0.9% probability. There are 5 elder dragons (~4-4.5% of getting one on any random 8 mana activation) that can usually end the game in 2-3 turns on their own (depending on how things have been going up to that point) so I think the risk is worth the reward. I mean, would you try to win off Ambassador Laquatus because you're afraid of platinum emperion? The mountain/swamp thing made sense at first but I'll definitely be testing more 5 color matches - I only usually play 1-2 momirs per week but I'll report back when I have more experiences!
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Traditionally I've run a 15/14/11/10/10 Setup (M/S/I/P/F) due to abilities and my ideal curveout is
3 Mountain
2 Swamp
1 Plains
1 Island
1 Forest
The need for blue seems to be concentrated in the small drops while things like this:
Seem to really be putting late game islands as a liability.
Not running islands forbids the upkeep on 3 elder dragons but I rarely see them as the number of 8 drops has increased.
Do you think its worth it as a general strategy to not drop islands after T4 or as a general rule of thumb would you still curve into islands preemptively?
Theros Myth Origins Part 1 WUBRG Part 2 GRBUW Born of the Gods
Beta Client Tutorial
Momir Basic Primer
Full article list
Hm, I thought island walk was the most. Maybe I'm thinking they are the biggest? As far as early drops and island home the odds just don't sway me.
Theros Myth Origins Part 1 WUBRG Part 2 GRBUW Born of the Gods
Beta Client Tutorial
Momir Basic Primer
Full article list
Chile!
Why 2 forest? I only care about forests if I'm going to 10 and might hit Krosan Cloudscraper.
For some reason I thought Sisters was a 7 drop.
Pestilence Demon and Sanguine Praetor were the ones I was thinking of.
I'm somewhat revising my thoughts on 9 drops but 8's still seem better in a vacuum.
Any thoughts on that?
Don't get me wrong I don't think bringer of the blue dawn is bad in an average game of Momir when you are even or ahead, however it can be pretty disappointing when your opponent has an overwhelming board position or has you on a <6 turn clock (the times when you would be trying to flip an out). Especially if they have some dumb thing like a darksteel colossus a bringer of the green dawn could by you some extra time against some ground monsters or red dawn could put him on just as tight of a clock and help unclutter the board. Its great if you can wait 6 turns to coin toss an emmy or 7 to get a Draco though. I have just lost so many games when I flipped nine repeatedly got bringer of the esper's dawn and then went back to 8 because my opponent got some monster like stormtide and they didn't really affect the board or do anything to his big monsters.
I counted bloodfire and sanguine predator as not instant outs in the case you are trying to answer a broken earlier drop (they exist) or something with higher toughness than 6 or you are on a reasonable clock 4-5 turns and are on 8 thinking of going to 9. I should probably classify it as etb outs.
Today because I have too much time I went through all of the CMC6+ creatures in magic (yes all 969) and am running some stats on them like flier percentages, etb outs, "sorcery outs", game swingers, wreck your boards, instant wins, and instant losses, blanks, and average dude size. Expect to see a write up tomorrow. I can also share the excel doc I am working out of in case you want to add something.
But back on the topic at hand I was blown out by sundering titan with blue elder dragon in play the other day. Afterwards I really feel like having domain is a huge liability rather than an asset. I think it is best to keep BBBRRRGG going to 8, I feel it minimizes vulnerability to land walk and sundering titan while maximizing the ability to use abilities and pay for upkeeps. As many late game haymakers (6+) cards have a (B)BB or RRR upkeep or require (B)BB or Rx to activate or have a powerful secondary G ability.
It's also a less than 1% chance to hit. Just keeping the 5 elder dragons in mind being worried of Sundering Titan seems ill advised. I've won plenty more games where keeping an elder dragon alive was key than I've lost to Sundering Titan
Theros Myth Origins Part 1 WUBRG Part 2 GRBUW Born of the Gods
Beta Client Tutorial
Momir Basic Primer
Full article list
There are a heck of a lot of BBB activations and upkeeps, so I try to hit it by turn six (Demonic Hordes lock isn't good or bad, per se). Being able to activate things like Helldozer and Kalitas, Bloodchief of Ghet really allow you to just upend games in your favor.
As for the Elder Dragons, they still pack a punch as 7/7 fliers with technical upside (the worst is probably Nicol Bolas because hands are usually empty at this point, followed by Chromium). Vaevictis Asmadi usually leads the pack in flexible firebreathing. I usually want to domain up for those types of cards anyways.
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Anyway I just wanted to say thanks and that yes I believe it comes down to luck and personal preference. I am far too lazy to do any math in defense of this new stance but all I know is that sundering titan is about a 0.9% probability. There are 5 elder dragons (~4-4.5% of getting one on any random 8 mana activation) that can usually end the game in 2-3 turns on their own (depending on how things have been going up to that point) so I think the risk is worth the reward. I mean, would you try to win off Ambassador Laquatus because you're afraid of platinum emperion? The mountain/swamp thing made sense at first but I'll definitely be testing more 5 color matches - I only usually play 1-2 momirs per week but I'll report back when I have more experiences!
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