So I finally have a decent job and I've been thinking that I want to build Death and Taxes in Legacy on MTGO. Always been a huge fan of the deck, and now I might finally have the means to make a Legacy deck. Then I looked at the price of Rishadan Port. Holy cow. It is literally HALF of the ~$1000 that Death and Taxes costs to build from scratch online.
Now get this - according to MTGGoldfish.com, Death and Taxes will cost between $1000 - $1100 to build. $970 of that money is allocated as follows: 4 Wasteland ($377.84) and 4 Rishadan Port ($592.60).
I know MTGO has a lot of backdoor ways to "print" these cards in MTGO - as a promo for certain achievements, or in smaller, exclusive sets like Vintage Masters and others, etc. Does WotC have an incentive to reprint these? I'm no economist, but the HUGE price tag on the above two cards are entirely secondary market. It doesn't affect Wizards' primary bottom dollar whether 4 Wasteland cost $3, $3000, or $377.84. People don't buy these from them directly. Does it cost them in other ways? Maybe I guess. Sure they hit MTGO retailers pockets a bit by reprinting Rishadan Port and Wasteland. But I think the opportunity is greater for Wizards - more people might play Legacy and other formats online if the price tag on some of these decks just dropped by a few hundred bucks.
Thoughts? Also, any theories behind the way Wizards print runs these older, expensive, exclusive cards in MTGO would be great to talk about too.
So I finally have a decent job and I've been thinking that I want to build Death and Taxes in Legacy on MTGO. Always been a huge fan of the deck, and now I might finally have the means to make a Legacy deck. Then I looked at the price of Rishadan Port. Holy cow. It is literally HALF of the ~$1000 that Death and Taxes costs to build from scratch online.
Now get this - according to MTGGoldfish.com, Death and Taxes will cost between $1000 - $1100 to build. $970 of that money is allocated as follows: 4 Wasteland ($377.84) and 4 Rishadan Port ($592.60).
I know MTGO has a lot of backdoor ways to "print" these cards in MTGO - as a promo for certain achievements, or in smaller, exclusive sets like Vintage Masters and others, etc. Does WotC have an incentive to reprint these? I'm no economist, but the HUGE price tag on the above two cards are entirely secondary market. It doesn't affect Wizards' primary bottom dollar whether 4 Wasteland cost $3, $3000, or $377.84. People don't buy these from them directly. Does it cost them in other ways? Perhaps, but unquantifiable. Sure they hit MTGO retailers pockets a bit by reprinting Rishadan Port and Wasteland. But I think the opportunity is greater for Wizards - more people might play Legacy and other formats online if the price tag on some of these decks just dropped by a few hundred bucks.
Thoughts? Also, any methodologies or theories behind the way Wizards print runs these older, expensive, exclusive cards in MTGO would be great to talk about too.
It's a fair bet to be a MOCS promo sometime. If they do a vintage masters 2, or a Legacy masters (paper or online only) it could easily be in tehre.
Distinguish between undersupplied and over-demanded cards.
The former are very likely to see reprints, the latter less so.
Masques block cards, even commons, are in extremely short supply. While triple Mercadian and MMN were both reasonable draft formats for the era, the addition of Prophecy made the draft experience terrible, and the combined packs manage to make it even worse. Cards with any tournament results from Masques block are undersupplied and will be reprinted.
On the flip side some cards are expensive because they are in very high demand but are fairly well supplied (Spellskite, Mox Opal, or to a lesser extent Goblin Rabblemaster). These cards aren't as sure to see reprints.
Cards that cannot be acquired at any price are bad for WotC. High priced cards that are available are somewhere between a mild nuisance and a good thing.
I'll take 'why is Mike Turian still employed?' for $1000 Alex.
I swear he throws darts to see which promo they should release.
Does it cost them in other ways? Maybe I guess.
The thing is if they make it a promo, they get people playing a lot more events to earn QPs. So they're probably losing money having trash like vengevine as the MOCS promo.
The one downside of lowering the price of those cards is that it makes drafting those unpopular formats even worse. It's better for limited players but worse for constructed players.
The cards they reprint are completely random. Like Worth said he'd never reprint FoW in a masters edition set. And they nuked the price from 160 to ~35 with all the reprints. Why they don't want to do this for wasteland or port doesn't make any sense.
The thing is if they make it a promo, they get people playing a lot more events to earn QPs. So they're probably losing money having trash like vengevine as the MOCS promo.
Is there any reason to believe the amount of extra money they stand to make is at all significant? All you've done is identify a plausible causal mechanism for high value promos making WotC money, we don't have any idea of how much money is actually involved in this, how elastic demand for QP-yielding events truly is, or how much WotC values the "specialness" of one-off reprints which they have previously cited as a reason for not simply printing off sheets of the most expensive cards. I don't see how that's enough to proclaim that Mike Turian should be fired for costing them an unspecified amount of potential revenue in this way. To answer the thread topic, they have an incentive but clearly not a large one, to conclude based on essentially no evidence that it is in fact a large incentive and that they are therefore being incompetent is sort of question begging.
He should be fired for many things, but that's a different thread.
I also stated that it's better for limited players that the prices are high, but you cherry picked quotes :\
My apologies for not including that part of your post. It was my impression that it did not appreciably contribute to the conclusion you drew. Really, though, the exact same criticism could be applied to that point in that it's a plausible mechanism but it's not supported by any real data. So there's a plausible reason why reprinting these high-value cards would make WotC more money and there's a plausible reason why it would make them less money, without any solid way of determining how much money. How does that lead to a conclusion that WotC is doing something wrong? Moreover, doesn't this abundance of unknowns suggest a potential explanation for "random" reprints; cards that appear to be selected with no thought of variables of which we are aware but which might have clear differences in terms of variables of which we are not aware?
TSE is in the rotation and is a fairly popular format when it rolls around. Wasteland was about $50 a year ago, and I'm willing to bet this list is thought up way in advance. During that time Wasteland spiked to $150 and then fell back to where it is now.
Mercadian Multipack was/is not a popular draft format. People would rather grind MOCS points on Khans or any other format than play that nonsense which is why they are so high. I think the only way you're going to see a huge port nerf is with Legacy Masters or something like that.
The Nerfs of both Jace TMS and FoW do show that Wizards really doesn't care all that much about maintaining secondary prices on mtgo the way they do in paper.
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Out of the blackness and stench of the engulfing swamp emerged a shimmering figure. Only the splattered armor and ichor-stained sword hinted at the unfathomable evil the knight had just laid waste.
Dang the images are down. Were they in the card file?
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Out of the blackness and stench of the engulfing swamp emerged a shimmering figure. Only the splattered armor and ichor-stained sword hinted at the unfathomable evil the knight had just laid waste.
TSE is in the rotation and is a fairly popular format when it rolls around. Wasteland was about $50 a year ago, and I'm willing to bet this list is thought up way in advance. During that time Wasteland spiked to $150 and then fell back to where it is now.
Mercadian Multipack was/is not a popular draft format. People would rather grind MOCS points on Khans or any other format than play that nonsense which is why they are so high. I think the only way you're going to see a huge port nerf is with Legacy Masters or something like that.
The Nerfs of both Jace TMS and FoW do show that Wizards really doesn't care all that much about maintaining secondary prices on mtgo the way they do in paper.
It's TTT that's needed, not TSE. In TSE, you are 1 in 40 (roughly) to open a Wasteland personally. For comparison, in triple Khans, you are (roughly) 1 in 40 to open Sorin.
They need to bite the bullet on Masques and say 'We screwed up' and run MMN drafts that you can enter using the full-block packs.
TSE is in the rotation and is a fairly popular format when it rolls around. Wasteland was about $50 a year ago, and I'm willing to bet this list is thought up way in advance. During that time Wasteland spiked to $150 and then fell back to where it is now.
Mercadian Multipack was/is not a popular draft format. People would rather grind MOCS points on Khans or any other format than play that nonsense which is why they are so high. I think the only way you're going to see a huge port nerf is with Legacy Masters or something like that.
The Nerfs of both Jace TMS and FoW do show that Wizards really doesn't care all that much about maintaining secondary prices on mtgo the way they do in paper.
It's TTT that's needed, not TSE. In TSE, you are 1 in 40 (roughly) to open a Wasteland personally. For comparison, in triple Khans, you are (roughly) 1 in 40 to open Sorin.
They need to bite the bullet on Masques and say 'We screwed up' and run MMN drafts that you can enter using the full-block packs.
You notice how Kamigawa is hardly ever a retro draft either. They tried Onslaught Block drafts a couple years ago and the EV was so bad that I wonder if there was some influence in putting those in Khans. Port is a problem since it's a named place. I think the best place to stick it would be in a Legacy Event Deck to go with the 2 already in the store.
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Out of the blackness and stench of the engulfing swamp emerged a shimmering figure. Only the splattered armor and ichor-stained sword hinted at the unfathomable evil the knight had just laid waste.
That would only be an impediment to printing it in a Standard-legal set and I think they'd never do that anyway. It's not like the fetchlands where there were already very close counterparts that were Modern legal. Nothing stopping them from putting it in a Duel Deck or Commander or something like Conspiracy (the reprints weren't required to be flavoured as part of Fiora) beyond True-Name Nemesis style concerns. Or, as you say, they could make another online-only event deck and put it in there.
Port will never be in DD or Commander since it is too valuable. It will never be in standard or modern since it is too oppressing. Only place it can get reprinted are:
Conspiracy-style set, except more competitive
Judge Foil/GP Foil
Legacy/Vintage Masters
From the Vault is a reasonable landing spot. And if they do a real life Legacy Master's, which I think they would, it would be in there.
I saw that on twitter. I thought it was just a sweet alter. Dang those eyes in foil....
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Out of the blackness and stench of the engulfing swamp emerged a shimmering figure. Only the splattered armor and ichor-stained sword hinted at the unfathomable evil the knight had just laid waste.
Quickly scanned the thread and didn't see mention of it but Tempest Remastered is coming and wasteland is in at rare. Ohh and a few other lesser money cards as well scattered about.
I missed the boat on the floor for Wasteland after Tempest Remastered, but I just got my playset for 200, I feel OK about that price. Still cheaper than I paid for my playset in paper. I'm not so sure what to think about Rishadan Port. My only fully, completely, 100% finished and built legacy deck in paper is Death & Taxes, and I was hoping to build it in MTGO, but I dunno... that price on Rishadan Port is insane. Is it the most expensive card in MTGO? I think it is. It's higher than Black Lotus! What I *really* don't get, though, is why is Misdirection as high/higher than Black Lotus? That card has no business being over $100.
What I *really* don't get, though, is why is Misdirection as high/higher than Black Lotus? That card has no business being over $100.
Supply and demand. Masques block drafts were not as popular as VMA was. Also, people only need 1 Black Lotus but tend to want/need more than 1 Misdirection in their decks that use it.
What I *really* don't get, though, is why is Misdirection as high/higher than Black Lotus? That card has no business being over $100.
Supply and demand. Masques block drafts were not as popular as VMA was. Also, people only need 1 Black Lotus but tend to want/need more than 1 Misdirection in their decks that use it.
I don't know, most lists I've seen that call for Misdirection only want one copy, but then I'm looking at Vintage so maybe it's different in Legacy. You're right on the supply thing, though. Everything in VMA is cheap as chips right now because it was relatively recent and drafted a lot, and complimentary cards like Misdirection and Wasteland rose as people started to buy into Vintage.
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Now get this - according to MTGGoldfish.com, Death and Taxes will cost between $1000 - $1100 to build. $970 of that money is allocated as follows: 4 Wasteland ($377.84) and 4 Rishadan Port ($592.60).
I know MTGO has a lot of backdoor ways to "print" these cards in MTGO - as a promo for certain achievements, or in smaller, exclusive sets like Vintage Masters and others, etc. Does WotC have an incentive to reprint these? I'm no economist, but the HUGE price tag on the above two cards are entirely secondary market. It doesn't affect Wizards' primary bottom dollar whether 4 Wasteland cost $3, $3000, or $377.84. People don't buy these from them directly. Does it cost them in other ways? Maybe I guess. Sure they hit MTGO retailers pockets a bit by reprinting Rishadan Port and Wasteland. But I think the opportunity is greater for Wizards - more people might play Legacy and other formats online if the price tag on some of these decks just dropped by a few hundred bucks.
Thoughts? Also, any theories behind the way Wizards print runs these older, expensive, exclusive cards in MTGO would be great to talk about too.
It's a fair bet to be a MOCS promo sometime. If they do a vintage masters 2, or a Legacy masters (paper or online only) it could easily be in tehre.
The former are very likely to see reprints, the latter less so.
Masques block cards, even commons, are in extremely short supply. While triple Mercadian and MMN were both reasonable draft formats for the era, the addition of Prophecy made the draft experience terrible, and the combined packs manage to make it even worse. Cards with any tournament results from Masques block are undersupplied and will be reprinted.
On the flip side some cards are expensive because they are in very high demand but are fairly well supplied (Spellskite, Mox Opal, or to a lesser extent Goblin Rabblemaster). These cards aren't as sure to see reprints.
Cards that cannot be acquired at any price are bad for WotC. High priced cards that are available are somewhere between a mild nuisance and a good thing.
I swear he throws darts to see which promo they should release.
Does it cost them in other ways? Maybe I guess.
The thing is if they make it a promo, they get people playing a lot more events to earn QPs. So they're probably losing money having trash like vengevine as the MOCS promo.
The one downside of lowering the price of those cards is that it makes drafting those unpopular formats even worse. It's better for limited players but worse for constructed players.
The cards they reprint are completely random. Like Worth said he'd never reprint FoW in a masters edition set. And they nuked the price from 160 to ~35 with all the reprints. Why they don't want to do this for wasteland or port doesn't make any sense.
Is there any reason to believe the amount of extra money they stand to make is at all significant? All you've done is identify a plausible causal mechanism for high value promos making WotC money, we don't have any idea of how much money is actually involved in this, how elastic demand for QP-yielding events truly is, or how much WotC values the "specialness" of one-off reprints which they have previously cited as a reason for not simply printing off sheets of the most expensive cards. I don't see how that's enough to proclaim that Mike Turian should be fired for costing them an unspecified amount of potential revenue in this way. To answer the thread topic, they have an incentive but clearly not a large one, to conclude based on essentially no evidence that it is in fact a large incentive and that they are therefore being incompetent is sort of question begging.
I also stated that it's better for limited players that the prices are high, but you cherry picked quotes :\
My apologies for not including that part of your post. It was my impression that it did not appreciably contribute to the conclusion you drew. Really, though, the exact same criticism could be applied to that point in that it's a plausible mechanism but it's not supported by any real data. So there's a plausible reason why reprinting these high-value cards would make WotC more money and there's a plausible reason why it would make them less money, without any solid way of determining how much money. How does that lead to a conclusion that WotC is doing something wrong? Moreover, doesn't this abundance of unknowns suggest a potential explanation for "random" reprints; cards that appear to be selected with no thought of variables of which we are aware but which might have clear differences in terms of variables of which we are not aware?
Mercadian Multipack was/is not a popular draft format. People would rather grind MOCS points on Khans or any other format than play that nonsense which is why they are so high. I think the only way you're going to see a huge port nerf is with Legacy Masters or something like that.
The Nerfs of both Jace TMS and FoW do show that Wizards really doesn't care all that much about maintaining secondary prices on mtgo the way they do in paper.
http://forums.classicquarter.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=2125
Yeah, I'd say very likely that we get a Port MOCs promo with that judge art.
It's TTT that's needed, not TSE. In TSE, you are 1 in 40 (roughly) to open a Wasteland personally. For comparison, in triple Khans, you are (roughly) 1 in 40 to open Sorin.
They need to bite the bullet on Masques and say 'We screwed up' and run MMN drafts that you can enter using the full-block packs.
You notice how Kamigawa is hardly ever a retro draft either. They tried Onslaught Block drafts a couple years ago and the EV was so bad that I wonder if there was some influence in putting those in Khans. Port is a problem since it's a named place. I think the best place to stick it would be in a Legacy Event Deck to go with the 2 already in the store.
That would only be an impediment to printing it in a Standard-legal set and I think they'd never do that anyway. It's not like the fetchlands where there were already very close counterparts that were Modern legal. Nothing stopping them from putting it in a Duel Deck or Commander or something like Conspiracy (the reprints weren't required to be flavoured as part of Fiora) beyond True-Name Nemesis style concerns. Or, as you say, they could make another online-only event deck and put it in there.
From the Vault is a reasonable landing spot. And if they do a real life Legacy Master's, which I think they would, it would be in there.
thalia confirmed in paper
http://www.reddit.com/r/magicTCG/comments/30i7v0/new_wmc_promothalia_guardian_of_thraben/
I saw that on twitter. I thought it was just a sweet alter. Dang those eyes in foil....
http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/card-image-gallery/tempest-remastered-card-image-gallery-2015-03-30#
Supply and demand. Masques block drafts were not as popular as VMA was. Also, people only need 1 Black Lotus but tend to want/need more than 1 Misdirection in their decks that use it.
I don't know, most lists I've seen that call for Misdirection only want one copy, but then I'm looking at Vintage so maybe it's different in Legacy. You're right on the supply thing, though. Everything in VMA is cheap as chips right now because it was relatively recent and drafted a lot, and complimentary cards like Misdirection and Wasteland rose as people started to buy into Vintage.