Hello!
Long time ago I saw a guy who posted a link to his site / blog where he explained how to play drafts at MTGO reducing costs almost to 0. I cant find this site / his thread on forum. Could you help me with that? Im very interested in his site.
Here's the thing, you aren't going to go infinite on drafts. Ever. The EV just isn't good enough to do it. As for reducing costs, you can do that, by buying packs from bots, as they will cost less than MSRP. But in order to even make enough to go "infinite" drafting you have to play 8-4's. Which means that you need to sustain a 67% winning percentage and on top of that, that loss can't come in your first two matches. Sealed requires a 75% winning percentage, but that loss can come in any of the 4 rounds, which actually makes it way easier to actually keep going infinite. In addition, if all you play is sealed, going 3-1 actually gives you buffer room to allow for 2-2 scrub outs by paying out 9 packs, which makes the 2-2's able to be accounted for in the long term winning percentage, which makes the actual required winning percentage to keep going infinite playing sealed far lower.
The idea is to win, then sell rares/packs to get tix back in order to enter again. With sealed its far easier to do so. With draft, its almost impossible to do so.
What everyone is syaing is correct. You aren't going infinite drafting (only a small handful are good enough to do this). If you become good (but not one of the best players in the game), you can probably get to where you average paying 1 or 2 tix per draft, which is a pretty good deal.
Going infinite playing constructed is possible (although unortunately you don't get to play as much since they chopped the daily event schedule). It's a grind though, and you aren't really making money (well maybe like half of minimum wage), and you'd likely be much better off just doing something you actually enjoy.
What everyone is syaing is correct. You aren't going infinite drafting (only a small handful are good enough to do this). If you become good (but not one of the best players in the game), you can probably get to where you average paying 1 or 2 tix per draft, which is a pretty good deal.
Going infinite playing constructed is possible (although unortunately you don't get to play as much since they chopped the daily event schedule). It's a grind though, and you aren't really making money (well maybe like half of minimum wage), and you'd likely be much better off just doing something you actually enjoy.
I often wonder if anyone at all is going infinite solely by drafting. Even running hot with an unsustainable (for me) 75% match win rate in 21 BTT drafts (playing a variety of 8-4, swiss, and 4-3-2-2), I'm still down about 25 tix overall. And I wonder whether anything much higher than 75% is sustainable for even the very best. You can watch someone like Luis Scott-Vargas draft on his channel, and he'll have runs where he scrubs out in rounds one or two 3 drafts in a row, meaning just like that, he's down 9 packs and 6 tix. He's probably among the best players of all time, and yet the inherent variance in the game guarantees he'll lose a significant portion of the time. I feel like the margin between an elite player and just a good 8-4 player is something like 60-40, and that's not enough for going infinite over the long run.
But he doesn't maximize his EV all the time. He doesn't play during the hours when the competition is the weakest and he doesn't try to sell his rares/mythics/boosters when they are at their highest. If you use the beta client you could also scout your opponents and only join when you see no one you recognize.
Starting mtgo now and going infinite would mean you'd have to be very disciplined and you'd have to follow market trends, as well as being an excellent drafter.
That's incredibly tedious and i'm not sure how much fun you'd have doing that.
If you're not one of the best drafters in your area, you should probably look at mtgo drafting as entertainment and not a self sustaining hobby.
But he doesn't maximize his EV all the time. He doesn't play during the hours when the competition is the weakest and he doesn't try to sell his rares/mythics/boosters when they are at their highest. If you use the beta client you could also scout your opponents and only join when you see no one you recognize.
Starting mtgo now and going infinite would mean you'd have to be very disciplined and you'd have to follow market trends, as well as being an excellent drafter.
That's incredibly tedious and i'm not sure how much fun you'd have doing that.
If you're not one of the best drafters in your area, you should probably look at mtgo drafting as entertainment and not a self sustaining hobby.
As for the infinite thing, as the guy said, he's clearly a very good drafter, but not the best of the best. Guys like Ben Stark, Dustin Faeder, Hannes, Brian Wong, Karem, and a few others are/were infinite drafters in their grinding days. The best player in my area is in an infinite drafter, I have confirmed it. He's also an elite player though, and a guy who would be a pro tour mainstay if he dedicated the time to it (or if you coudl still qualify on rating). But yes, it's exceedingly rare, and most people who say they are infinite drafting are lying. Actually going infinite on MODO requires absurd discipline and tons of constructed grinding. No thanks.
But MODO drafting is great practice, even though it's going to cost you money. I used to draft a lot on MTGO, and as I said, was a 1750-1800 drafter. Which probably puts me in the top 25% of MODO drafters, but nothing special, and not close to going infinite. But at my local store, I absolutely demolished people, and it was a decent local store with lots of PTQ regulars and competitive players. The summer of the core set with bloodthirst (can't remember which that was), I had something like 5 losses the entire summer. I qualified for a PT on rating playing nothing but local drafts and one limited GP. And on MODO, I was nothing but a good but unremarkable drafter.
@spairy
I agree on your points on going infinite by drafting. I would however change
"Actually going infinite on MODO requires absurd discipline and tons of constructed grinding"
into
"Going infinite on MODO requires discipline and Constructed".
It really isn't that difficult if you don't constantly jump between decks and lie in the top 25% of Constructed players. This is naturally assuming you don't have to cover a ton of Limited losses.
I've argued with people over the number of cards in a deck many times, and I feel that having a high number of "good cards" is better than having a small number of "really good" cards. I laugh at the people who argue that with a smaller deck you're more likely to draw what you need, because if you get in that situation you're gonna NOT end up drawing it many many more times than you would.
@spairy
I agree on your points on going infinite by drafting. I would however change
"Actually going infinite on MODO requires absurd discipline and tons of constructed grinding"
into
"Going infinite on MODO requires discipline and Constructed".
It really isn't that difficult if you don't constantly jump between decks and lie in the top 25% of Constructed players. This is naturally assuming you don't have to cover a ton of Limited losses.
This is a really good point that I think we need to discuss more when we talk about infinite. It's really easy to go infinite in a format that the decks never really change (Momir, Pauper). It's harder in a format where the decks change a lot like standard or even modern because to be truly infinite you have to pay for your deck changes too. You could be infinite from trading. (Technically I haven't spent a dime in the last 3 months but then again due to time constraints I've only played 2 tournaments. I don't really call that infinite). Or you could be playing to fund limited which is where I think most people want to be, or some combination. Bankroll matters too. Just being able to sell your packs at the right time could net you 30-50 more tix over the course of a season. That's 6-10 drafts depending on how good you are.
I think we need to start asking people who want to be infinite what they are hoping to do.
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I'm not new to magic but fairly new to MTGO. I read up a bit on best ways to start out and EV and yada yada. I dabbled here and there, trying out pauper, looking in to cheaper block decks, but I can tell you that Sealed Dailies are far and away the best way to get started and net value. I don't like saying "Go infinite" just because it's too all-or-nothing but I can honestly tell you that I have probably spent $40'ish on sealed. That was the first 2. I have yet to put another dollar on and this is after something like 12-18 dailies or so? I'm not sure where to locate an actual number but it's a rough guess.
Like people have said, going 3-1 in the Sealed Daily will give you 9 packs. Let's just assume we can never go 4-0. At 3-1, you get to re-enter with 6 of the packs and 2 tix. You can sell 1 pack to get somewhere around 2.5-3.5 tix for that extra entry fee. You are left over with .5-1.5 tix, 2 packs, and (the most overlooked part so far imo) the 6 packs of cards you opened in the event. As all of this "going infinite" stuff is going on, you are having 6 chances every event at opening cards that are worth a notable amount. I have had a few times I would go 2-2 and get my 3 packs but sell some card I opened for 10-20 tix and not care a bit. I have accumulated some play-sets of cards that I am able to just keep holding on to if I want. I've had instances where I was getting low on tix/packs so I'd sell a chunk of the rares I had opened and be back up to 30 tix or something. Just last week I was building and had a Brimaz. My white was pretty good so he was being played. It was the 3rd Brimaz I have gotten from Sealed and knew it was something like 15 or 16 tix (?) so I was happy enough. When I began round 1 and looked at my opening hand. It wasn't until then I noticed it was foil. I got 45 tix for it. I could have went 0-4 but due to the fact you're passively acquiring cards in all of this, I got lucky and got a random 45 tix.
So my main point, play Sealed. Read up on what's good and some general archetypes to watch for and you shouldn't ever do worse than 2-2 which is still 3 packs.
I'm not new to magic but fairly new to MTGO. I read up a bit on best ways to start out and EV and yada yada. I dabbled here and there, trying out pauper, looking in to cheaper block decks, but I can tell you that Sealed Dailies are far and away the best way to get started and net value. I don't like saying "Go infinite" just because it's too all-or-nothing but I can honestly tell you that I have probably spent $40'ish on sealed. That was the first 2. I have yet to put another dollar on and this is after something like 12-18 dailies or so? I'm not sure where to locate an actual number but it's a rough guess.
Like people have said, going 3-1 in the Sealed Daily will give you 9 packs. Let's just assume we can never go 4-0. At 3-1, you get to re-enter with 6 of the packs and 2 tix. You can sell 1 pack to get somewhere around 2.5-3.5 tix for that extra entry fee. You are left over with .5-1.5 tix, 2 packs, and (the most overlooked part so far imo) the 6 packs of cards you opened in the event. As all of this "going infinite" stuff is going on, you are having 6 chances every event at opening cards that are worth a notable amount. I have had a few times I would go 2-2 and get my 3 packs but sell some card I opened for 10-20 tix and not care a bit. I have accumulated some play-sets of cards that I am able to just keep holding on to if I want. I've had instances where I was getting low on tix/packs so I'd sell a chunk of the rares I had opened and be back up to 30 tix or something. Just last week I was building and had a Brimaz. My white was pretty good so he was being played. It was the 3rd Brimaz I have gotten from Sealed and knew it was something like 15 or 16 tix (?) so I was happy enough. When I began round 1 and looked at my opening hand. It wasn't until then I noticed it was foil. I got 45 tix for it. I could have went 0-4 but due to the fact you're passively acquiring cards in all of this, I got lucky and got a random 45 tix.
So my main point, play Sealed. Read up on what's good and some general archetypes to watch for and you shouldn't ever do worse than 2-2 which is still 3 packs.
The value of an opened pack is documented at somewhere around 1 tix for the majority of sets. If you conservatively estimate this at 5 tix for the 6 packs you open, you can count out teh 2 tix rake and one pack, meaning you need to average 5 packs won to stay afloat. I don't know what kind of winning percentaget hat requires.
So my main point, play Sealed. Read up on what's good and some general archetypes to watch for and you shouldn't ever do worse than 2-2 which is still 3 packs.
Is there any good site or place where I can read about good archetypes for sealed / draft?
Only considering income from selling cards at bot buy prices - any better price you negotiate is a trading profit, and having trading subsidize limited play is not going 'infinite on draft'. All of this assumes sensible rare-grabbing (i.e. never pass a 5 ticket card ever, take a 3 ticket card over anything but the best of bombs, etc).
Realistically, if you are in the top 10% of drafters, you can draft cheaply, with prizes won providing you a big subsidy on entry fees. In my best formats I fit this category.
If you are in the top 1% of drafters, you can draft for almost nothing but will need to occasionally buy tickets.
If you are in the top 0.1% of drafters, you can draft as much as you want.
If, however, you are not in the top 1% of drafters but think you are (and this group is large), expect a big credit card bill if you become an MTGO addict. People like you subsidize the top 0.1%.
starcitygames/tcgplayer/channelfireball are all great sites. All of it is free except for certain articles of SCG. They write about various things so scroll around a bit and people will be discussing sealed
Realistically, if you are in the top 10% of drafters, you can draft cheaply, with prizes won providing you a big subsidy on entry fees. In my best formats I fit this category.
If you are in the top 1% of drafters, you can draft for almost nothing but will need to occasionally buy tickets.
If you are in the top 0.1% of drafters, you can draft as much as you want.
If, however, you are not in the top 1% of drafters but think you are (and this group is large), expect a big credit card bill if you become an MTGO addict. People like you subsidize the top 0.1%.
This.
I've gone infinite for short periods of time but it's hard to sustain in the long run. I suspect a lot of people go infinite for the short term and then hope to sustain it in the long term, thinking they are in the top 1%. Realitistically, you're probably just in the top 10% and on a hot streak. At least for me, it takes a lot of grinding and mental exhaustion adds up over time. I also find midnight-4AM hours (ET) are generally easier to win. I never play prime time evenings. Mental discipline is hugely important as it's really easy to end up "on tilt" after a bad beat and then sign up for another draft when you probably shouldn't be playing.
After a long hiatus, I got back on MTGO for Limited after the BNG season started. I've put in $120 between March and April and have gotten a TON of drafts (and some Sealed) out of it and am near complete sets of both THS and BNG to cash out (20 cards short between the two, mostly mythics.. which are not cheap to buy from bots and may take a while to earn from drafting). If I complete those sets, it'll easily be worth the investment. But from my amassed draft cards I've had to sell 3 Stormbreath Dragon, 1 Elspeth, 2 Kiora, 1 Brimaz and some gods (cards now missing from my sets) in order to sustain draft fees during the slumps where I was just scrubbing out on mulls to 5 or land floods in round 1. Variance is a thing and you need some way to survive it.
In 8-4s, my win rate is about 67%, which I think is not terrible but still keeps me in the red since I cannot make the finals every time. Although with that win rate my EV should be highest in 8-4, my pockets aren't deep enough to always stick with it. Sometimes I draft what I believe to be a legitmately amazing deck and lose in 3 games round 2 to turn 4 Kiora+walls in both games 1 and 3. Other times I just get outplayed. 8-4s are full of legitimately amazing players. It's hard to consistently beat at least two of them each time. Magic is a game of variance.
I've made the most consistent returns (although not necessarily most packs) out of 4-3-2-2s, despite the lower EV, since I find the competition easier and winning at least 1 round guarantees you a worst case of -1 pack. I've played Swisses on recommendation from everyone saying 4-3-2-2s are a trap, but I hate them. Even though I've almost always gotten 2-3 packs (it's really really hard to lose in the loser bracket on Easy mode even with a garbage hand), the rounds take FOREVER to play out. If there's at least one slow new player, they don't get eliminated and they hold back the time to complete every single round. People typically take longer for deck construction too. This extra waiting time adds considerable boredom to the process. Being forced to play out all 3 rounds just to get 2-3 packs also adds considerable mental exhaustion over time with low max payout to look forward to. So I generally avoid Swiss.
I agree that Sealed can be the best way to profit. I've played a couple sealed events and going 3-1 or 4-0 nets you both decent QP and a solid bank of packs. Sealed is a different skill than drafting, probably less practiced by grinders. I would play more Sealed if not for the restriction of needing to be available at a very specific time (for the scheduled event) and sign up early enough in advance.
So my main point, play Sealed. Read up on what's good and some general archetypes to watch for and you shouldn't ever do worse than 2-2 which is still 3 packs.
Is there any good site or place where I can read about good archetypes for sealed / draft?
Most of the discussion revolves around draft, but I would like to point out that our very own MTGS limited forum is very good and very helpful. It includes frequent visits by plenty of grinders and a few pros.
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I'm currently still using the initial $50 I put in last year, I do scheduled sealed twice a week and a draft almost every night. I got really lucky opening a few amazing scheduled sealed pools and going 4-0 in them. That helped supply my draft packs. Only problem I see is that whenever I'm up lets say.... 20packs, I would lose to rng and get mana flooded or mana screwed. However I do feel I win more often due to my opponents getting rocked by rng than myself. 8-4 and scheduled sealeds are a definite must if you are attempting to run "infinite".
I'm currently still using the initial $50 I put in last year, I do scheduled sealed twice a week and a draft almost every night. I got really lucky opening a few amazing scheduled sealed pools and going 4-0 in them. That helped supply my draft packs. Only problem I see is that whenever I'm up lets say.... 20packs, I would lose to rng and get mana flooded or mana screwed. However I do feel I win more often due to my opponents getting rocked by rng than myself. 8-4 and scheduled sealeds are a definite must if you are attempting to run "infinite".
My rating was 1860+ for a while (~6 months) but I wasn't very close to infinite. Part of it is that I didn't really try to optimize anything like playing the most profitable formats, saving packs to sell for the right time, etc. I would usually just buy tickets/packs from the store since I hate using bots. I just want to play the game; WoTC should be embarrassed that it's so inconvenient to manage your cards/packs because they don't include any features directly into the product. Having bot chains do this is not a great solution.
My rating was 1860+ for a while (~6 months) but I wasn't very close to infinite. Part of it is that I didn't really try to optimize anything like playing the most profitable formats, saving packs to sell for the right time, etc. I would usually just buy tickets/packs from the store since I hate using bots. I just want to play the game; WoTC should be embarrassed that it's so inconvenient to manage your cards/packs because they don't include any features directly into the product. Having bot chains do this is not a great solution.
The overall weakness of Theros plus the +$20 redemption fee on top of it makes it one of the cheapest standard blocks ever. If you don't use bots it is then even harder to go infinite. Wizards is not ashamed, but is very glad you spend your money in their stores instead of trading with bots. How do you refill your tickets anyway if you don't trade? When I was 1860+ I was even infinite while being in Swiss queues (but that was not in Theros).
I did sell some of the high valued cards to bots (5+ tickets), but I don't want to spend time optimizing selling bulk rares or whatever. I'd rather pay an extra $2/draft than have to deal with the terrible trading UI :).
While 'going infinite' is cool for bragging rights, practically it doesn't matter much if you have a source of income. The difference between 'earning' $1/draft and paying $1/draft is quite small even if you draft twice a day.
Just for the record, you can't "go infinite" temporarily. That's nonsense and takes away all meaning from the term. It simply means you had a good streak, which pretty much every competent (or lucky) drafter has had at some point.
Anyway, rating alone is by no means the only relevant factor. If you're 1800 in swiss, you're paying more to draft than someone who's 1800 in 8-4s or constructed or just special events with better payouts. Even then, while you expect it to average out the more you play, there are undeniably people who have had far, far better pack opening luck than others. An 1800 player could play exactly the same amount and the same type of events as an 1830 player and still be paying less for drafts on average (or winning more on average). More importantly, most of the people who say they're going infinite with nothing but 8-4s are lying. You see it all the time. Not because it's impossible, just because it's very rare.
My rating was 1860+ for a while (~6 months) but I wasn't very close to infinite. Part of it is that I didn't really try to optimize anything like playing the most profitable formats, saving packs to sell for the right time, etc. I would usually just buy tickets/packs from the store since I hate using bots. I just want to play the game; WoTC should be embarrassed that it's so inconvenient to manage your cards/packs because they don't include any features directly into the product. Having bot chains do this is not a great solution.
The overall weakness of Theros plus the +$20 redemption fee on top of it makes it one of the cheapest standard blocks ever. If you don't use bots it is then even harder to go infinite. Wizards is not ashamed, but is very glad you spend your money in their stores instead of trading with bots. How do you refill your tickets anyway if you don't trade? When I was 1860+ I was even infinite while being in Swiss queues (but that was not in Theros).
I did sell some of the high valued cards to bots (5+ tickets), but I don't want to spend time optimizing selling bulk rares or whatever. I'd rather pay an extra $2/draft than have to deal with the terrible trading UI :).
While 'going infinite' is cool for bragging rights, practically it doesn't matter much if you have a source of income. The difference between 'earning' $1/draft and paying $1/draft is quite small even if you draft twice a day.
That difference is $1460. You have to be making a LOT of money for that to not matter. Like 7 figures money. That's a vacation, or a mortgage payment on a nice house.
And yes, everything Jermo is saying is correct. There are very few going infinite on 8-4s. And by very few, I mean a small handful, the top 0.1% of drafters.
That difference is $1460. You have to be making a LOT of money for that to not matter. Like 7 figures money. That's a vacation, or a mortgage payment on a nice house.
And yes, everything Jermo is saying is correct. There are very few going infinite on 8-4s. And by very few, I mean a small handful, the top 0.1% of drafters.
It's a bit over $100 a month on his hobby that would consume 3-5 hours a day of time. It's $40-60 a weekend to play an average golf course (4 hours). Heck, people spend that at the bar every weekend really easy. People drop $60 on 2 weeks of the latest video game.
Don't forget at $2 a draft and 2 drafts a day our hypothetical drafter cracked 2190 packs (10 physical cases of product) or an average of 9 full sets and an additional 9 rares sets if it were all 3x of one set. I did this w/ core set draft a few years ago. I put about $450 into the client and cashed out enough to finish the downpayment on my current house.
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That difference is $1460. You have to be making a LOT of money for that to not matter. Like 7 figures money. That's a vacation, or a mortgage payment on a nice house.
And yes, everything Jermo is saying is correct. There are very few going infinite on 8-4s. And by very few, I mean a small handful, the top 0.1% of drafters.
It's a bit over $100 a month on his hobby that would consume 3-5 hours a day of time. It's $40-60 a weekend to play an average golf course (4 hours). Heck, people spend that at the bar every weekend really easy. People drop $60 on 2 weeks of the latest video game.
Don't forget at $2 a draft and 2 drafts a day our hypothetical drafter cracked 2190 packs (10 physical cases of product) or an average of 9 full sets and an additional 9 rares sets if it were all 3x of one set. I did this w/ core set draft a few years ago. I put about $450 into the client and cashed out enough to finish the downpayment on my current house.
Calculations of going infinite include the value of the cards you opened.
If you were able to substantially profit playing nothing but 8-4 drafts, you're among the top 1% of drafters. That's awesome, but for 99% of the MTGO population, that's not the case.
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Long time ago I saw a guy who posted a link to his site / blog where he explained how to play drafts at MTGO reducing costs almost to 0. I cant find this site / his thread on forum. Could you help me with that? Im very interested in his site.
The idea is to win, then sell rares/packs to get tix back in order to enter again. With sealed its far easier to do so. With draft, its almost impossible to do so.
Going infinite playing constructed is possible (although unortunately you don't get to play as much since they chopped the daily event schedule). It's a grind though, and you aren't really making money (well maybe like half of minimum wage), and you'd likely be much better off just doing something you actually enjoy.
I often wonder if anyone at all is going infinite solely by drafting. Even running hot with an unsustainable (for me) 75% match win rate in 21 BTT drafts (playing a variety of 8-4, swiss, and 4-3-2-2), I'm still down about 25 tix overall. And I wonder whether anything much higher than 75% is sustainable for even the very best. You can watch someone like Luis Scott-Vargas draft on his channel, and he'll have runs where he scrubs out in rounds one or two 3 drafts in a row, meaning just like that, he's down 9 packs and 6 tix. He's probably among the best players of all time, and yet the inherent variance in the game guarantees he'll lose a significant portion of the time. I feel like the margin between an elite player and just a good 8-4 player is something like 60-40, and that's not enough for going infinite over the long run.
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/limited-sealed-draft/548400-hello-and-some-random-thoughts-on-drafting-from-an
But he doesn't maximize his EV all the time. He doesn't play during the hours when the competition is the weakest and he doesn't try to sell his rares/mythics/boosters when they are at their highest. If you use the beta client you could also scout your opponents and only join when you see no one you recognize.
Starting mtgo now and going infinite would mean you'd have to be very disciplined and you'd have to follow market trends, as well as being an excellent drafter.
That's incredibly tedious and i'm not sure how much fun you'd have doing that.
If you're not one of the best drafters in your area, you should probably look at mtgo drafting as entertainment and not a self sustaining hobby.
As for the infinite thing, as the guy said, he's clearly a very good drafter, but not the best of the best. Guys like Ben Stark, Dustin Faeder, Hannes, Brian Wong, Karem, and a few others are/were infinite drafters in their grinding days. The best player in my area is in an infinite drafter, I have confirmed it. He's also an elite player though, and a guy who would be a pro tour mainstay if he dedicated the time to it (or if you coudl still qualify on rating). But yes, it's exceedingly rare, and most people who say they are infinite drafting are lying. Actually going infinite on MODO requires absurd discipline and tons of constructed grinding. No thanks.
But MODO drafting is great practice, even though it's going to cost you money. I used to draft a lot on MTGO, and as I said, was a 1750-1800 drafter. Which probably puts me in the top 25% of MODO drafters, but nothing special, and not close to going infinite. But at my local store, I absolutely demolished people, and it was a decent local store with lots of PTQ regulars and competitive players. The summer of the core set with bloodthirst (can't remember which that was), I had something like 5 losses the entire summer. I qualified for a PT on rating playing nothing but local drafts and one limited GP. And on MODO, I was nothing but a good but unremarkable drafter.
I agree on your points on going infinite by drafting. I would however change
"Actually going infinite on MODO requires absurd discipline and tons of constructed grinding"
into
"Going infinite on MODO requires discipline and Constructed".
It really isn't that difficult if you don't constantly jump between decks and lie in the top 25% of Constructed players. This is naturally assuming you don't have to cover a ton of Limited losses.
This is a really good point that I think we need to discuss more when we talk about infinite. It's really easy to go infinite in a format that the decks never really change (Momir, Pauper). It's harder in a format where the decks change a lot like standard or even modern because to be truly infinite you have to pay for your deck changes too. You could be infinite from trading. (Technically I haven't spent a dime in the last 3 months but then again due to time constraints I've only played 2 tournaments. I don't really call that infinite). Or you could be playing to fund limited which is where I think most people want to be, or some combination. Bankroll matters too. Just being able to sell your packs at the right time could net you 30-50 more tix over the course of a season. That's 6-10 drafts depending on how good you are.
I think we need to start asking people who want to be infinite what they are hoping to do.
Like people have said, going 3-1 in the Sealed Daily will give you 9 packs. Let's just assume we can never go 4-0. At 3-1, you get to re-enter with 6 of the packs and 2 tix. You can sell 1 pack to get somewhere around 2.5-3.5 tix for that extra entry fee. You are left over with .5-1.5 tix, 2 packs, and (the most overlooked part so far imo) the 6 packs of cards you opened in the event. As all of this "going infinite" stuff is going on, you are having 6 chances every event at opening cards that are worth a notable amount. I have had a few times I would go 2-2 and get my 3 packs but sell some card I opened for 10-20 tix and not care a bit. I have accumulated some play-sets of cards that I am able to just keep holding on to if I want. I've had instances where I was getting low on tix/packs so I'd sell a chunk of the rares I had opened and be back up to 30 tix or something. Just last week I was building and had a Brimaz. My white was pretty good so he was being played. It was the 3rd Brimaz I have gotten from Sealed and knew it was something like 15 or 16 tix (?) so I was happy enough. When I began round 1 and looked at my opening hand. It wasn't until then I noticed it was foil. I got 45 tix for it. I could have went 0-4 but due to the fact you're passively acquiring cards in all of this, I got lucky and got a random 45 tix.
So my main point, play Sealed. Read up on what's good and some general archetypes to watch for and you shouldn't ever do worse than 2-2 which is still 3 packs.
The value of an opened pack is documented at somewhere around 1 tix for the majority of sets. If you conservatively estimate this at 5 tix for the 6 packs you open, you can count out teh 2 tix rake and one pack, meaning you need to average 5 packs won to stay afloat. I don't know what kind of winning percentaget hat requires.
Is there any good site or place where I can read about good archetypes for sealed / draft?
Realistically, if you are in the top 10% of drafters, you can draft cheaply, with prizes won providing you a big subsidy on entry fees. In my best formats I fit this category.
If you are in the top 1% of drafters, you can draft for almost nothing but will need to occasionally buy tickets.
If you are in the top 0.1% of drafters, you can draft as much as you want.
If, however, you are not in the top 1% of drafters but think you are (and this group is large), expect a big credit card bill if you become an MTGO addict. People like you subsidize the top 0.1%.
This.
I've gone infinite for short periods of time but it's hard to sustain in the long run. I suspect a lot of people go infinite for the short term and then hope to sustain it in the long term, thinking they are in the top 1%. Realitistically, you're probably just in the top 10% and on a hot streak. At least for me, it takes a lot of grinding and mental exhaustion adds up over time. I also find midnight-4AM hours (ET) are generally easier to win. I never play prime time evenings. Mental discipline is hugely important as it's really easy to end up "on tilt" after a bad beat and then sign up for another draft when you probably shouldn't be playing.
After a long hiatus, I got back on MTGO for Limited after the BNG season started. I've put in $120 between March and April and have gotten a TON of drafts (and some Sealed) out of it and am near complete sets of both THS and BNG to cash out (20 cards short between the two, mostly mythics.. which are not cheap to buy from bots and may take a while to earn from drafting). If I complete those sets, it'll easily be worth the investment. But from my amassed draft cards I've had to sell 3 Stormbreath Dragon, 1 Elspeth, 2 Kiora, 1 Brimaz and some gods (cards now missing from my sets) in order to sustain draft fees during the slumps where I was just scrubbing out on mulls to 5 or land floods in round 1. Variance is a thing and you need some way to survive it.
In 8-4s, my win rate is about 67%, which I think is not terrible but still keeps me in the red since I cannot make the finals every time. Although with that win rate my EV should be highest in 8-4, my pockets aren't deep enough to always stick with it. Sometimes I draft what I believe to be a legitmately amazing deck and lose in 3 games round 2 to turn 4 Kiora+walls in both games 1 and 3. Other times I just get outplayed. 8-4s are full of legitimately amazing players. It's hard to consistently beat at least two of them each time. Magic is a game of variance.
I've made the most consistent returns (although not necessarily most packs) out of 4-3-2-2s, despite the lower EV, since I find the competition easier and winning at least 1 round guarantees you a worst case of -1 pack. I've played Swisses on recommendation from everyone saying 4-3-2-2s are a trap, but I hate them. Even though I've almost always gotten 2-3 packs (it's really really hard to lose in the loser bracket on Easy mode even with a garbage hand), the rounds take FOREVER to play out. If there's at least one slow new player, they don't get eliminated and they hold back the time to complete every single round. People typically take longer for deck construction too. This extra waiting time adds considerable boredom to the process. Being forced to play out all 3 rounds just to get 2-3 packs also adds considerable mental exhaustion over time with low max payout to look forward to. So I generally avoid Swiss.
I agree that Sealed can be the best way to profit. I've played a couple sealed events and going 3-1 or 4-0 nets you both decent QP and a solid bank of packs. Sealed is a different skill than drafting, probably less practiced by grinders. I would play more Sealed if not for the restriction of needing to be available at a very specific time (for the scheduled event) and sign up early enough in advance.
Most of the discussion revolves around draft, but I would like to point out that our very own MTGS limited forum is very good and very helpful. It includes frequent visits by plenty of grinders and a few pros.
What is your limited rating?
I did sell some of the high valued cards to bots (5+ tickets), but I don't want to spend time optimizing selling bulk rares or whatever. I'd rather pay an extra $2/draft than have to deal with the terrible trading UI :).
While 'going infinite' is cool for bragging rights, practically it doesn't matter much if you have a source of income. The difference between 'earning' $1/draft and paying $1/draft is quite small even if you draft twice a day.
Anyway, rating alone is by no means the only relevant factor. If you're 1800 in swiss, you're paying more to draft than someone who's 1800 in 8-4s or constructed or just special events with better payouts. Even then, while you expect it to average out the more you play, there are undeniably people who have had far, far better pack opening luck than others. An 1800 player could play exactly the same amount and the same type of events as an 1830 player and still be paying less for drafts on average (or winning more on average). More importantly, most of the people who say they're going infinite with nothing but 8-4s are lying. You see it all the time. Not because it's impossible, just because it's very rare.
That difference is $1460. You have to be making a LOT of money for that to not matter. Like 7 figures money. That's a vacation, or a mortgage payment on a nice house.
And yes, everything Jermo is saying is correct. There are very few going infinite on 8-4s. And by very few, I mean a small handful, the top 0.1% of drafters.
It's a bit over $100 a month on his hobby that would consume 3-5 hours a day of time. It's $40-60 a weekend to play an average golf course (4 hours). Heck, people spend that at the bar every weekend really easy. People drop $60 on 2 weeks of the latest video game.
Don't forget at $2 a draft and 2 drafts a day our hypothetical drafter cracked 2190 packs (10 physical cases of product) or an average of 9 full sets and an additional 9 rares sets if it were all 3x of one set. I did this w/ core set draft a few years ago. I put about $450 into the client and cashed out enough to finish the downpayment on my current house.
Calculations of going infinite include the value of the cards you opened.
If you were able to substantially profit playing nothing but 8-4 drafts, you're among the top 1% of drafters. That's awesome, but for 99% of the MTGO population, that's not the case.