It would seem to appear so from this quote by Aaron:
Magic Online
Although as I write this in late November, 2013, it is the proverbial elephant in the room, I do think it's fair to remind people that, in general, Magic Online works and works well, allowing thousands of people to play formats of every stripe using just about every card ever printed at any time of day or night, every day of the year. We have a never-ending rapid stream of set deployments in paper that Magic Online is able to keep up with, which is a real testament to the teams that make that happen.
But there have been problems—this year, last year, every year. It's the nature of the beast, unfortunately, and trust me when I say that no one wants Magic Online to be all that it can be more than us. I am encouraged by what's happening here behind the scenes. Worth Wollpert and the Magic Online team are committed to both making improvements and keeping all of you informed of what's happening moving forward, so stay tuned.
Everyone always brings up the coders. The coders likely are not the problem. Too many years of too many mistakes. The managment is mismanaging the platform and designs. V4 isn't just poorly coded, it is poorly designed and implemented.
Everyone always brings up the coders. The coders likely are not the problem. Too many years of too many mistakes. The managment is mismanaging the platform and designs. V4 isn't just poorly coded, it is poorly designed and implemented.
It's poorly coded too if they can bring in a 3rd party team and increase the speed 3-4x.
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Out of the blackness and stench of the engulfing swamp emerged a shimmering figure. Only the splattered armor and ichor-stained sword hinted at the unfathomable evil the knight had just laid waste.
It's poorly coded too if they can bring in a 3rd party team and increase the speed 3-4x.
Yes and no. The V4 codebase is now 4~ years old, and WPF is a newer platform. They have done changes in the design over the years. Also V4 was originally made by Stainless Games, same guys from DOTP.
I think everyone realizes that MTGO is completely inadequate with the exception of the 1 or 2 people (who we probably don't even know the names of) that can actually do something about it.
The bottom line is that we don't know what exactly went wrong and who really deserves the blame. It's rather pointless to speculate along those lines.
But to answer the OP's question: From the linked article, I don't think they've made the hard choices they need to make yet. Basically, I'm looking for two things. The first is the decision to stop wasting resources on V4 and start work on V5. The second is recognition of the real issues which are keeping MTGO from being a modern game.
The bottom line is that we don't know what exactly went wrong and who really deserves the blame. It's rather pointless to speculate along those lines.
But to answer the OP's question: From the linked article, I don't think they've made the hard choices they need to make yet. Basically, I'm looking for two things. The first is the decision to stop wasting resources on V4 and start work on V5. The second is recognition of the real issues which are keeping MTGO from being a modern game.
In my opinion there are a couple of main issues.
- I don't really think WPF is the right platform to be building the client on, I don't really think its designed for this kind of project
- If I was to guess, one of the main issues is the initial design, there were gaping flaws in those initial steps (you only need to look at how the beta was when it was first released, or if you were in the closed beta, how it was just before release) and I think they have had to spend far too much time trying to 'fix' these initial mistakes instead of just totally redesigning the bits that didn't really work. I suspect whoever was responsible for that initial design is still involved and is part of the reason why things can't move forward as much as they should.
- It *feels* like they are simply not getting the right people in to do the work that needs to be done (before they brought in a third party company to do re-writes of parts of the client) there seems to be too much emphasis on 'MTG developers who can do some coding' instead of actually getting programmers in who can do the work.
I agree that they do still have hard choices to make and it will be interesting this year to see if they can actually go through with that and do what they need to do. I have a bad feeling though that we are going to be in a very similar sounding position in 12 months time. I hope I am wrong, but after so many years, the same promises start to lose any meaning.
Not only that, they are also hiring a Sr. Product Manager. An interesting tidbit from that ad:
- Business owner for products/projects currently budgeted at more than $3.5M for 2014
I'm wondering if this number is the revenue stream, or the budget ($ + man hours) to spend? I think it's the latter, and for all the digital initiatives, not just MtGO (also: DotP, probably websites?)
Yesterday I thought: MTGO is an ideal platform to introduce online-specific sets. Think of -cards with random effects such as the Astral cards,
-cards that don't require counters to give something a permanent effect so you can give something +2/0 (not until end of turn) without memory issues
-forget DFC and go for triple or quadruple faced cards
(These things actually sound now like Hex)
And then I remembered they don't even have the mundane cards right and the online things are even getting axed (Momir dailies).
EDIT
On topic: perhaps they realize MTGO is inadequate, but the bad decisions continue such as that new Daily schedule or the removal of ratings for personal use. I don't expect any change soon because the people that are responsible will stay making bad decisions and no coders can help that. Even if I can scroll 1000x faster through my collection I still don't expect MTGO being turned in some Magic paradise.
It always make me feel a little more sad when I see that they prefer people making a name for themselves in the community over people excelling at the particular career. Though I feel part of this is they probably don't pay well.
Every week or so, at my LGS the question is asked, "So why does MTGO suck so much? It has for years and they don't seem to care to do anything about it?" This is at a Modern tournament with 20 participants, one of whom plays MTGO. Literally 8-10 others have tried it, found the client archaic, clumsy, unintuitive, and basically taking the game and making it crappier to play, then shoving it out the door with 256 color VGA crap card images.
In the words of Top Gear... how hard can it be? Can't they see they're losing MILLIONS? When I'm sitting in a room weekly surrounded by people who actively wish that the online experience was worth participating in... someone doesn't deserve their job at WOTC/Ha$bro, because they haven't been trying for a decade.
I've been using MTGO since v1. I really don't understand all of this hate for MTGO. It allows you to play casual or ranked games 24/7 in any format you want. from any where in the world.
The minor interface issues are meaningless to me compared to that. I have been using the beta client exclusively for about a year. It's come a long way. A few minor gripes aside I think its pretty much perfect from an end user's standpoint.
For all you haters, can you please state specifically why you think MTGO is so bad? Please do not use subjective arguments like "the colors are ugly". Instead you can say "I don't like the lack of custom skins" or whatever.
Most of the changes they made in V4 are hardly improvements. The changes are lateral moves.
Why did they spend 4 years on something that is barely better than the current pile of crap?
People want a real upgrade and not a polished turd.
Still not hearing any actual specific problems. I dare you to come up with a compelling reason the program is bad that isnt completely subjective like "it looks bad" or "my pentium 4 comp runs it slow".
Still not hearing any actual specific problems. I dare you to come up with a compelling reason the program is bad that isnt completely subjective like "it looks bad" or "my pentium 4 comp runs it slow".
My AMD PHENOM BLACK II (6 core X-64 2.2GHZ per Core) with 16GB of ram cannot run the BETA without it being slower than V3 and outright crashing regularly. I forgot to turn of foil animation, and some jerk with his all foil commander deck lagged my out my computer so bad I had to pull the power cord.
It also is stupid. They went a little too extra window, too the point where it is very easy to have 20 extra windows juggling around in multiplayer (3-headed giant is unplayable entirely). Also in multiplayer you can really only ever see 2 players fields at the same time. Even with the play window on its own monitor.
Multi-player in the BETA does not work.
There are just a few reasons why the coding is bad.
That is just issues with the beta.
For general MTGO issues:
The support team does not seem to know the rules. When you submit rules errors to them, they will inform you that the cards work correctly, unless you send them citations from multiple judges that the rules in fact don't work that way. I was told they don't have their own rules team to make sure the interactions are correct and rely on players to report bugs, that they ignore unless enough players report it as a bug. Which was enough to make me quit beta testing for them since I don't like being unpaid labor, I also no longer play very many pay entry tournaments after that experience.
Multiplayer games in general are SLOOOOW. I don't mind people being slow to respond to triggers. But all it takes is 1 person with a 200 card deck and everyone just got 1 second of lag added to their clicks. The game has a limit of about 1000 cards on the field before it becomes a slog. If you have more than 50 cards in hand, it doesn't handle that well. Foils, should be removed from the game. Background images are lame and being able to insert your own custom one shouldn't be a pain.
Also, I am paying WAY too much money for them to not actually fix any of the issues I care about. Every year they make multiplayer worse and harder to find.
I really don't get the hate. Does the client work? Yes. Can I log on, any time, and play some cards? Yes. Just because something doesn't have whatever you believe to be some "zomg must-have feature" (that likely isn't even as "must have" as you adamantly believe), doesn't mean that it's a bad client.
I use the v3, I don't have a problem with the cosmetics, or the functionality - it plays exactly as intended.
I can make a whole list and it will take me very long and I am preaching to the quire anyway, so I can perhaps concentrate everything it in one example: leagues.
It's actually spelt "choir". Just wanted to fix that for you.
I really don't get the hate. Does the client work? Yes. Can I log on, any time, and play some cards? Yes. Just because something doesn't have whatever you believe to be some "zomg must-have feature" (that likely isn't even as "must have" as you adamantly believe), doesn't mean that it's a bad client.
You have very low standards. Do you live in a cardboard box?
After having played Oblivion I bought for the price of 2 drafts Skyrim. It is nice to see the differences between those two games and to see what you can achieve in 5 years. I am on MTGO now for 5.5 years and yes it works, but almost nothing is improved in that time, if not stripped down. Quite disappointing if you consider the kind of money people spend on MTGO.
I actually prefer Oblivion to Skyrim. Maybe it's because it's easier to break, maybe it's because I know this game inside and out more. Whatever it is, I still prefer it to Skyrim.
someone doesn't deserve their job at WOTC/Ha$bro, because they haven't been trying for a decade.
I can hear it in Worth's voice every time he post's an announcement. "This is the best we can do. Hasbro says more bricks less straw."
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Out of the blackness and stench of the engulfing swamp emerged a shimmering figure. Only the splattered armor and ichor-stained sword hinted at the unfathomable evil the knight had just laid waste.
Objectively, the program uses way too much memory and still mismanaged the huge amount it takes, at least the Beta does. After 10 matches, you pretty much need to restart it regardless of your computer as the program will crash itself just from memory leaks.
To the people who are defending the client: Yes you can get on and play games sucessfully, but that should not be our only expectation. A piece of software should be a reflection of the revenue that it generates. The current client is something that you would expect out of a startup company trying to get their foot in the games industry and doesn't have the revenue to develop or support a high end piece of software. With a company at the level of Hasbro and the longevity of MTGO we should not have to settle for a mere functional game and have to overlook things like ascetics, ease of use, or technical issues like memory leak.
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Modern xWBreakfast at Urza'sxW UWGBantUWG GWRNaya ZooRWG
To the people who are defending the client: Yes you can get on and play games sucessfully, but that should not be our only expectation. A piece of software should be a reflection of the revenue that it generates. The current client is something that you would expect out of a startup company trying to get their foot in the games industry and doesn't have the revenue to develop or support a high end piece of software. With a company at the level of Hasbro and the longevity of MTGO we should not have to settle for a mere functional game and have to overlook things like ascetics, ease of use, or technical issues like memory leak.
well said....being that's its now 2014, one would think after 8+yrs of mtgo (successful revenue stream) one would be able to play online via a Tablet/Ipad device...but Hasbro has not reinvested, but rather just simple cash machined it.
*** on side note...With the coinciding paths of the Counterfeiting issue and the prospect of a future 'MTG Movie', imagine if Hasbro had already updated and invested in a state of art MTGO platform: just how much better equipped would they be able to weather both of these potential storms?
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Is it possible that it will actually get some much needed resources (competent programmers) to make MTGO what it can be? Full article https://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg%2Fdaily%2Ffeature%2F281
Modern
xWBreakfast at Urza'sxW
UWGBantUWG
GWRNaya ZooRWG
Everyone always brings up the coders. The coders likely are not the problem. Too many years of too many mistakes. The managment is mismanaging the platform and designs. V4 isn't just poorly coded, it is poorly designed and implemented.
It's poorly coded too if they can bring in a 3rd party team and increase the speed 3-4x.
Yes and no. The V4 codebase is now 4~ years old, and WPF is a newer platform. They have done changes in the design over the years. Also V4 was originally made by Stainless Games, same guys from DOTP.
A comic about the world's most addictive game, Magic: The Gathering.
But to answer the OP's question: From the linked article, I don't think they've made the hard choices they need to make yet. Basically, I'm looking for two things. The first is the decision to stop wasting resources on V4 and start work on V5. The second is recognition of the real issues which are keeping MTGO from being a modern game.
Practice for Khans of Tarkir Limited:
Draft: (#1) (#2) (#3) (#4) (#5)
In my opinion there are a couple of main issues.
- I don't really think WPF is the right platform to be building the client on, I don't really think its designed for this kind of project
- If I was to guess, one of the main issues is the initial design, there were gaping flaws in those initial steps (you only need to look at how the beta was when it was first released, or if you were in the closed beta, how it was just before release) and I think they have had to spend far too much time trying to 'fix' these initial mistakes instead of just totally redesigning the bits that didn't really work. I suspect whoever was responsible for that initial design is still involved and is part of the reason why things can't move forward as much as they should.
- It *feels* like they are simply not getting the right people in to do the work that needs to be done (before they brought in a third party company to do re-writes of parts of the client) there seems to be too much emphasis on 'MTG developers who can do some coding' instead of actually getting programmers in who can do the work.
I agree that they do still have hard choices to make and it will be interesting this year to see if they can actually go through with that and do what they need to do. I have a bad feeling though that we are going to be in a very similar sounding position in 12 months time. I hope I am wrong, but after so many years, the same promises start to lose any meaning.
http://www.reddit.com/r/magicTCG/comments/1ungq3/want_to_make_magic_with_us/
Not only that, they are also hiring a Sr. Product Manager. An interesting tidbit from that ad:
- Business owner for products/projects currently budgeted at more than $3.5M for 2014
I'm wondering if this number is the revenue stream, or the budget ($ + man hours) to spend? I think it's the latter, and for all the digital initiatives, not just MtGO (also: DotP, probably websites?)
Please no.
It always make me feel a little more sad when I see that they prefer people making a name for themselves in the community over people excelling at the particular career. Though I feel part of this is they probably don't pay well.
If only Wizards was located in an area where they could find competent software developers...
A comic about the world's most addictive game, Magic: The Gathering.
In the words of Top Gear... how hard can it be? Can't they see they're losing MILLIONS? When I'm sitting in a room weekly surrounded by people who actively wish that the online experience was worth participating in... someone doesn't deserve their job at WOTC/Ha$bro, because they haven't been trying for a decade.
The minor interface issues are meaningless to me compared to that. I have been using the beta client exclusively for about a year. It's come a long way. A few minor gripes aside I think its pretty much perfect from an end user's standpoint.
For all you haters, can you please state specifically why you think MTGO is so bad? Please do not use subjective arguments like "the colors are ugly". Instead you can say "I don't like the lack of custom skins" or whatever.
Want List for Magic Online Features
Do you play V3 or V4/beta?
Please let this lead to improvements with Magic Online!....
They aren't really going to switch to this Beta are they?
MTGO user interface
Most of the changes they made in V4 are hardly improvements. The changes are lateral moves.
Why did they spend 4 years on something that is barely better than the current pile of crap?
People want a real upgrade and not a polished turd.
Still not hearing any actual specific problems. I dare you to come up with a compelling reason the program is bad that isnt completely subjective like "it looks bad" or "my pentium 4 comp runs it slow".
My AMD PHENOM BLACK II (6 core X-64 2.2GHZ per Core) with 16GB of ram cannot run the BETA without it being slower than V3 and outright crashing regularly. I forgot to turn of foil animation, and some jerk with his all foil commander deck lagged my out my computer so bad I had to pull the power cord.
It also is stupid. They went a little too extra window, too the point where it is very easy to have 20 extra windows juggling around in multiplayer (3-headed giant is unplayable entirely). Also in multiplayer you can really only ever see 2 players fields at the same time. Even with the play window on its own monitor.
Multi-player in the BETA does not work.
There are just a few reasons why the coding is bad.
That is just issues with the beta.
For general MTGO issues:
The support team does not seem to know the rules. When you submit rules errors to them, they will inform you that the cards work correctly, unless you send them citations from multiple judges that the rules in fact don't work that way. I was told they don't have their own rules team to make sure the interactions are correct and rely on players to report bugs, that they ignore unless enough players report it as a bug. Which was enough to make me quit beta testing for them since I don't like being unpaid labor, I also no longer play very many pay entry tournaments after that experience.
Multiplayer games in general are SLOOOOW. I don't mind people being slow to respond to triggers. But all it takes is 1 person with a 200 card deck and everyone just got 1 second of lag added to their clicks. The game has a limit of about 1000 cards on the field before it becomes a slog. If you have more than 50 cards in hand, it doesn't handle that well. Foils, should be removed from the game. Background images are lame and being able to insert your own custom one shouldn't be a pain.
Also, I am paying WAY too much money for them to not actually fix any of the issues I care about. Every year they make multiplayer worse and harder to find.
I use the v3, I don't have a problem with the cosmetics, or the functionality - it plays exactly as intended.
It's actually spelt "choir". Just wanted to fix that for you.
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
You have very low standards. Do you live in a cardboard box?
I actually prefer Oblivion to Skyrim. Maybe it's because it's easier to break, maybe it's because I know this game inside and out more. Whatever it is, I still prefer it to Skyrim.
Nope. I just don't need things to be flashy in order to use them.
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
I think it's called Stockholm syndrome. Most Magic Online players suffer from it.
A comic about the world's most addictive game, Magic: The Gathering.
I can hear it in Worth's voice every time he post's an announcement. "This is the best we can do. Hasbro says more bricks less straw."
Modern
xWBreakfast at Urza'sxW
UWGBantUWG
GWRNaya ZooRWG
well said....being that's its now 2014, one would think after 8+yrs of mtgo (successful revenue stream) one would be able to play online via a Tablet/Ipad device...but Hasbro has not reinvested, but rather just simple cash machined it.
*** on side note...With the coinciding paths of the Counterfeiting issue and the prospect of a future 'MTG Movie', imagine if Hasbro had already updated and invested in a state of art MTGO platform: just how much better equipped would they be able to weather both of these potential storms?