MUC and Delver decks aren't doing anything really too broken with Gush though. It's an insane card, but the reason it's banned in Legacy is because it fuels incredibly broken combos.
I was actually just trying to say that they need to keep a close eye on Gush. For now it seems fine, but I feel like they have to watch it as new cards are released as some new interaction can work with the power of Gush to be broken at any time.
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I think the strongest part of the Delver deck is Cloud of Faeries + Spellstutter Sprite. Break that combo up and you severely weaken the deck.
But is there honestly a reason to? I can kind of understand the want of Invigorate bans, but Delver isn't oppressive or even that unfun to play against.
I was actually just trying to say that they need to keep a close eye on Gush. For now it seems fine, but I feel like they have to watch it as new cards are released as some new interaction can work with the power of Gush to be broken at any time.
man i wish they had lifted the bad on Stone forger Mystic on std she is not so OP without the hawks, also with ancient grudge back on the saddle swords and batterskull can be keep in check easy.
It's funny people are making a big deal out Faeries. As long as your deck packs enough threats and make it out of the first few turns, you'll usually win the attrition game with them, assuming you're not playing a home brew.
Gush is just fine as is. It's not fueling anything unfair and most Faeries lists aren't exactly abusing it. You'll see a pair of them at most, but usually at 1 like the other guy stated.
Why are we even discussing crippling Faeries anyway? What's the point of weakening a deck when it keeps other decks in check? Blows my mind how people can get frustrated over a simple control/aggro deck.
Right now, there's some really good rock/paper/scissors interaction between the tier 1 decks in the meta. Once people start packing hate for Infect (which isn't hard for most colors) then believe me, people will then go back to complaining about another card, like any random card in Storm decks.
When there's a deck that creates a Rock/Scissors meta-game, then that's when you have bannings. Looking at the data on MTGO/Dailies, the format's fine. Some decks aren't even packing hate for Infect. Imagine if these pack farmers/grinders started to change out their sideboard cards from their net decks. There's just a small influx of people jumping on the bandwagon, just like how idiots started coming to SCG opens with burn decks in the Legacy portions. They think they can get away with it, but that's up to how the meta reacts to them. Ultimately they just scrub out x-2 and just hit up the EDH tables.
It's not hard to beat a deck with such a narrow linear strategy.
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MUC does way more then keep other decks in check, it has significantly dominated the format when it comes to ending in the money... as far as banning fae they could go after the sprite and keep fam storm alive along with MUC
and infect is so brutal because it can win out so fast, sure you can side in hate in some decks, but if they have the t2 win and youre on the draw you're at one mana and can be SoL... as I keep saying it wont change anytime soon, but there has been a recent increase in infect showings
MUC does way more then keep other decks in check, it has significantly dominated the format when it comes to ending in the money... as far as banning fae they could go after the sprite and keep fam storm alive along with MUC
and infect is so brutal because it can win out so fast, sure you can side in hate in some decks, but if they have the t2 win and youre on the draw you're at one mana and can be SoL... as I keep saying it wont change anytime soon, but there has been a recent increase in infect showings
i think youre right, if wizard ban cloud of faeries familiar storm is dead.
But i think its the only way to give MUC less power, cloud of faeries alows ninja on turn 2, counter in turn 2, snap in turn 2
turn 1:
delver
turn 2:
flip delver
cloud of faeries,
atack delver, ninja.
about the other bans i would like to see capsize banned, that card holds back all of the 3 colored decks, and is just so broken with glimmerpost, and all of the cards post decks have.
the last card is invogorate, with apostle blessing, and vines you cant have this card in a metagame, i know you have hate against infect but turn 2 kill or turn 2 8 counters is just to good.
What value does this format get from Familiar Storm existing? That deck is a blight. The only reason not to kill it is that it's not that good right now.
Cloud of Faeries is just too good. It enables a tempo deck that pushes any sort of midrange out of the format and has no bad match-ups. Cloud of Faeries is in no way a fair card. I truly think this format would be better if the blue tempo decks had to actually tap mana to put threats into play.
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i agree with all the arguments against cards based on how they feel. but the data isnt showing any reason to make bannings, the format is still pretty vibrant.
heres an idea to end the dominance of faeries: print desert at common. that card should be common anyway
yeah I made mention of that before... that perhaps the answer is to try restricting some of the cards instead of a straight removal from format, but (at least in the case of Capsize) some decks are already running 1-ofs and a restriction would have 0 effect
What value does this format get from Familiar Storm existing? That deck is a blight. The only reason not to kill it is that it's not that good right now.
Yeah, not looking forward to AVR rotating in and that deck getting ghostly flicker.
Restricting a bunch of cards instead of banning 1 or 2 or 3 (Cloud of Faeries, Invigorate, and Cloudpost are my choices) would in general increase the randomness of games.
1/60 is pretty slim odds for drawing that copy. It might actually shake the format up a bit. I know if cranial plating got changed to being restricted I'd definitely try to make an affinity deck with 4x fling and 4x trinket mage
Restricting is miserably worse than banning. The reason the only format that has a restricted list is Vintage is, of course, that Vintage's whole schtick is that you can play every card. Every other format bans - because banning leads to healthier formats.
My "dream banlist" for Pauper is something like:
Frantic Search
Cranial Plating
Gush
Cloud of Faeries
Invigorate
Blue tempo decks are a fair bit weaker, Infect has to look for more consistency instead of just being a die roll deck, and overall the format is healthier.
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The problem with Gush is that it fuels ridiculous turns where the tempo player can put a threat into play, counter a spell, and draw cards. Normally, you can do one of those things in the early game, and two of those things in the mid game. Gush allows for all three as early as turn three.
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Can someone explain to me why its considered necessary for combo decks to exist? In legacy its ok because force of will exist.
Call me crazy but when I play magic I want to actually be able to affect the outcome of whether or not I win. Not play a land, then next turn die.
I understand answers exist, but when they can kill you before you have the mana for those answers, what the hell is the point of those answers? Are you just hoping they don't go off by the time you get the mana on board and have the answers in hand?
Again, in legacy force of will keeps combo decks honest. What answers are there in pauper that don't require mana?
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Originally Posted by Massive Marc
You know back in the old days, when there wasn't EDH, these "griefer" cards in decks were the norm. If you played a Winter Orb when you're opponents were tapped out, it was a good play. Now, you get people tell you they wanna punch you ? It's really sad how carebare this format is, to the point that some loser has to rip up your cards.
in Pauper there isn't a need to have an answer to storm for 0 mana because no combo deck is that effective.... there are only three combo decks in Pauper atm Storm, Fam Storm, and Infect... of those only Storm and Infect can win on turn 2 and even then Storm is more likely to be unable to kill you until turn 3-4... as kruemel said there are answers to these within those 2-3 turns... you're arguing why does it have to exist at all and I'd say why remove it entirely? there's no reason to, they can easily tone down these decks with the banning/restricting of a key card or two
What are you suppose to do when they kill you before you have the mana to play your answers? Just accept the luck of it? I don't like that because in that situation there is not a single thing I was able to do to try to affect the outcome of the game.
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Originally Posted by Massive Marc
You know back in the old days, when there wasn't EDH, these "griefer" cards in decks were the norm. If you played a Winter Orb when you're opponents were tapped out, it was a good play. Now, you get people tell you they wanna punch you ? It's really sad how carebare this format is, to the point that some loser has to rip up your cards.
just about every game out there shoots for that rock/paper/scissors model in order to balance things out so no one thing is stronger then the other
I put together a chart showing the breakdown for this over a month of Pauper results here, but you'll see that combo is only a quarter of the decks and in a more popular format like modern its only 21%... in most formats combo is the smallest of the three deck types and while they have the power to get those fast early wins they come around so rarely that it seems not worth removing all together
yeah exploration is definitely a card
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But is there honestly a reason to? I can kind of understand the want of Invigorate bans, but Delver isn't oppressive or even that unfun to play against.
Sure, if they reprint Fastbond or Exploration at common.
Gush is just fine as is. It's not fueling anything unfair and most Faeries lists aren't exactly abusing it. You'll see a pair of them at most, but usually at 1 like the other guy stated.
Why are we even discussing crippling Faeries anyway? What's the point of weakening a deck when it keeps other decks in check? Blows my mind how people can get frustrated over a simple control/aggro deck.
Right now, there's some really good rock/paper/scissors interaction between the tier 1 decks in the meta. Once people start packing hate for Infect (which isn't hard for most colors) then believe me, people will then go back to complaining about another card, like any random card in Storm decks.
When there's a deck that creates a Rock/Scissors meta-game, then that's when you have bannings. Looking at the data on MTGO/Dailies, the format's fine. Some decks aren't even packing hate for Infect. Imagine if these pack farmers/grinders started to change out their sideboard cards from their net decks. There's just a small influx of people jumping on the bandwagon, just like how idiots started coming to SCG opens with burn decks in the Legacy portions. They think they can get away with it, but that's up to how the meta reacts to them. Ultimately they just scrub out x-2 and just hit up the EDH tables.
It's not hard to beat a deck with such a narrow linear strategy.
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and infect is so brutal because it can win out so fast, sure you can side in hate in some decks, but if they have the t2 win and youre on the draw you're at one mana and can be SoL... as I keep saying it wont change anytime soon, but there has been a recent increase in infect showings
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UBUB Control/TeachingsBU
Ha! My Pauper UG Post Deck Showed!
Classic
BPoxB
Legacy
GB Eva Depths (Primer By Me) BG
Monthly Academy Showcase!
An Introduction to Competitive Pauper! *Updated*
Pauper Meta Analysis & What Wizards Left Out!
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i think youre right, if wizard ban cloud of faeries familiar storm is dead.
But i think its the only way to give MUC less power, cloud of faeries alows ninja on turn 2, counter in turn 2, snap in turn 2
turn 1:
delver
turn 2:
flip delver
cloud of faeries,
atack delver, ninja.
about the other bans i would like to see capsize banned, that card holds back all of the 3 colored decks, and is just so broken with glimmerpost, and all of the cards post decks have.
the last card is invogorate, with apostle blessing, and vines you cant have this card in a metagame, i know you have hate against infect but turn 2 kill or turn 2 8 counters is just to good.
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WSoul Sisters
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BUGRRestore Balance
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EDH:
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GWURoon of the Hidden Realm
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it is, Infect is more consistent than Storm at winning on turns 2-3
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BMBCB
UBUB Control/TeachingsBU
Ha! My Pauper UG Post Deck Showed!
Classic
BPoxB
Legacy
GB Eva Depths (Primer By Me) BG
Monthly Academy Showcase!
An Introduction to Competitive Pauper! *Updated*
Pauper Meta Analysis & What Wizards Left Out!
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Cloud of Faeries is just too good. It enables a tempo deck that pushes any sort of midrange out of the format and has no bad match-ups. Cloud of Faeries is in no way a fair card. I truly think this format would be better if the blue tempo decks had to actually tap mana to put threats into play.
heres an idea to end the dominance of faeries: print desert at common. that card should be common anyway
Deck List:
BMBCB
UBUB Control/TeachingsBU
Ha! My Pauper UG Post Deck Showed!
Classic
BPoxB
Legacy
GB Eva Depths (Primer By Me) BG
Monthly Academy Showcase!
An Introduction to Competitive Pauper! *Updated*
Pauper Meta Analysis & What Wizards Left Out!
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Yeah, not looking forward to AVR rotating in and that deck getting ghostly flicker.
1/60 is pretty slim odds for drawing that copy. It might actually shake the format up a bit. I know if cranial plating got changed to being restricted I'd definitely try to make an affinity deck with 4x fling and 4x trinket mage
My "dream banlist" for Pauper is something like:
Blue tempo decks are a fair bit weaker, Infect has to look for more consistency instead of just being a die roll deck, and overall the format is healthier.
Call me crazy but when I play magic I want to actually be able to affect the outcome of whether or not I win. Not play a land, then next turn die.
I understand answers exist, but when they can kill you before you have the mana for those answers, what the hell is the point of those answers? Are you just hoping they don't go off by the time you get the mana on board and have the answers in hand?
Again, in legacy force of will keeps combo decks honest. What answers are there in pauper that don't require mana?
You know back in the old days, when there wasn't EDH, these "griefer" cards in decks were the norm. If you played a Winter Orb when you're opponents were tapped out, it was a good play. Now, you get people tell you they wanna punch you ? It's really sad how carebare this format is, to the point that some loser has to rip up your cards.
Deck List:
BMBCB
UBUB Control/TeachingsBU
Ha! My Pauper UG Post Deck Showed!
Classic
BPoxB
Legacy
GB Eva Depths (Primer By Me) BG
Monthly Academy Showcase!
An Introduction to Competitive Pauper! *Updated*
Pauper Meta Analysis & What Wizards Left Out!
Found at MTGO Academy!! Same Great Series, Same Great Content, Great New Home!! (yes that is me shamelessly trolling for more readers :))
Check me out on Twitter & Get a little MTGO Therapy
You know back in the old days, when there wasn't EDH, these "griefer" cards in decks were the norm. If you played a Winter Orb when you're opponents were tapped out, it was a good play. Now, you get people tell you they wanna punch you ? It's really sad how carebare this format is, to the point that some loser has to rip up your cards.
just about every game out there shoots for that rock/paper/scissors model in order to balance things out so no one thing is stronger then the other
I put together a chart showing the breakdown for this over a month of Pauper results here, but you'll see that combo is only a quarter of the decks and in a more popular format like modern its only 21%... in most formats combo is the smallest of the three deck types and while they have the power to get those fast early wins they come around so rarely that it seems not worth removing all together
Deck List:
BMBCB
UBUB Control/TeachingsBU
Ha! My Pauper UG Post Deck Showed!
Classic
BPoxB
Legacy
GB Eva Depths (Primer By Me) BG
Monthly Academy Showcase!
An Introduction to Competitive Pauper! *Updated*
Pauper Meta Analysis & What Wizards Left Out!
Found at MTGO Academy!! Same Great Series, Same Great Content, Great New Home!! (yes that is me shamelessly trolling for more readers :))
Check me out on Twitter & Get a little MTGO Therapy