To toss this out there I could Potentially step up and host on Sundays (if your unable to find someone to host both days) Or I could be a backup host at least (I hosted tourneys for Traders/Alphabot for years back in the day) However Fridays are out of the question for me as I can't even play on Fridays currently as I do World of Warcraft carries as a side job and our Friday run is right at tourney time :(.
I have uploaded BFZ list to gatherling, so you can now register BFZ cards without using placeholders.
Also, I have added Price of Progress to legal list since it has been pointed out to me that there is a Theme Set Deck version that is both cheap enough and in stock. However, this is the last time I will add foil cards or cards from "non-regular" sets to the legal list after the rotation. There is probably dozens of "legal cards" that escape the list that MTGO Traders send me (this list includes only non-foil cards) and the filtering that I use (I exclude sets like TDO, Elves and Goblins etc., because those cards are not always in stock), and lately people have started messaging me why is this or that card (like Exhume from Graveborn, Lightning Bolt from Fire and Lightning, etc.) not legal. This means I have to then update all three lists for the card which wasn't even supposed to be legal under the criteria that has been used for creating Heirloom lists since way back I can remember. This is the second time I am doing this this rotation, and I don't want to start setting the precedent where I will go and change the lists everytime somebody finds some foil or a special version of a card that is cheap enough that can be legal. So from now on, let's make it official: Heirloom legality is determined from the following sets: regular sets, Commander decks (or online equivalents like Legendary Cube), Planechase, Modern Masters, VMA, Master Editions, Tempest Remastered (and other similiar sets in the future). Foil cards are not used in determining legality and neither are sets not listed above. (And let me repeat, this is nothing new, just stating that I will firmly stick to the method that has been always used, but maybe never formally stated which could cause confusion at times).
EDIT: On the other hand, I can manually check these "found cards" at each rotation, because I know how cards like Lightning Bolt, Exhume, etc. are important for Heirloom archetypes. I will create a list of those special versions that people found to be cheap and in stock and I will manually check them each time when creating legality list. I just won't be updating the lists in the middle of rotations anymore. So, what I said above still count, I will just add an exception that I will create a special list of "non-regular-version" cards that people have found (and will find in the future) and I will consider this list of cards every time I will create a legality list.
Why is not Lightning Bolt legal in this rotation?
Lightning Bolt from Fire and Lightning is on stock under 0.13...
I have uploaded BFZ list to gatherling, so you can now register BFZ cards without using placeholders.
Also, I have added Price of Progress to legal list since it has been pointed out to me that there is a Theme Set Deck version that is both cheap enough and in stock. However, this is the last time I will add foil cards or cards from "non-regular" sets to the legal list after the rotation. There is probably dozens of "legal cards" that escape the list that MTGO Traders send me (this list includes only non-foil cards) and the filtering that I use (I exclude sets like TDO, Elves and Goblins etc., because those cards are not always in stock), and lately people have started messaging me why is this or that card (like Exhume from Graveborn, Lightning Bolt from Fire and Lightning, etc.) not legal. This means I have to then update all three lists for the card which wasn't even supposed to be legal under the criteria that has been used for creating Heirloom lists since way back I can remember. This is the second time I am doing this this rotation, and I don't want to start setting the precedent where I will go and change the lists everytime somebody finds some foil or a special version of a card that is cheap enough that can be legal. So from now on, let's make it official: Heirloom legality is determined from the following sets: regular sets, Commander decks (or online equivalents like Legendary Cube), Planechase, Modern Masters, VMA, Master Editions, Tempest Remastered (and other similiar sets in the future). Foil cards are not used in determining legality and neither are sets not listed above. (And let me repeat, this is nothing new, just stating that I will firmly stick to the method that has been always used, but maybe never formally stated which could cause confusion at times).
EDIT: On the other hand, I can manually check these "found cards" at each rotation, because I know how cards like Lightning Bolt, Exhume, etc. are important for Heirloom archetypes. I will create a list of those special versions that people found to be cheap and in stock and I will manually check them each time when creating legality list. I just won't be updating the lists in the middle of rotations anymore. So, what I said above still count, I will just add an exception that I will create a special list of "non-regular-version" cards that people have found (and will find in the future) and I will consider this list of cards every time I will create a legality list.
Why is not Lightning Bolt legal in this rotation?
Lightning Bolt from Fire and Lightning is on stock under 0.13...
I have uploaded BFZ list to gatherling, so you can now register BFZ cards without using placeholders.
Also, I have added Price of Progress to legal list since it has been pointed out to me that there is a Theme Set Deck version that is both cheap enough and in stock. However, this is the last time I will add foil cards or cards from "non-regular" sets to the legal list after the rotation. There is probably dozens of "legal cards" that escape the list that MTGO Traders send me (this list includes only non-foil cards) and the filtering that I use (I exclude sets like TDO, Elves and Goblins etc., because those cards are not always in stock), and lately people have started messaging me why is this or that card (like Exhume from Graveborn, Lightning Bolt from Fire and Lightning, etc.) not legal. This means I have to then update all three lists for the card which wasn't even supposed to be legal under the criteria that has been used for creating Heirloom lists since way back I can remember. This is the second time I am doing this this rotation, and I don't want to start setting the precedent where I will go and change the lists everytime somebody finds some foil or a special version of a card that is cheap enough that can be legal. So from now on, let's make it official: Heirloom legality is determined from the following sets: regular sets, Commander decks (or online equivalents like Legendary Cube), Planechase, Modern Masters, VMA, Master Editions, Tempest Remastered (and other similiar sets in the future). Foil cards are not used in determining legality and neither are sets not listed above. (And let me repeat, this is nothing new, just stating that I will firmly stick to the method that has been always used, but maybe never formally stated which could cause confusion at times).
EDIT: On the other hand, I can manually check these "found cards" at each rotation, because I know how cards like Lightning Bolt, Exhume, etc. are important for Heirloom archetypes. I will create a list of those special versions that people found to be cheap and in stock and I will manually check them each time when creating legality list. I just won't be updating the lists in the middle of rotations anymore. So, what I said above still count, I will just add an exception that I will create a special list of "non-regular-version" cards that people have found (and will find in the future) and I will consider this list of cards every time I will create a legality list.
Why is not Lightning Bolt legal in this rotation?
Lightning Bolt from Fire and Lightning is on stock under 0.13...
Why is not Lightning Bolt legal in this rotation?
Lightning Bolt from Fire and Lightning is on stock under 0.13...
I don't see any of them on stock in the webstore.
Someone must bought them, but it was on stock and Lordpipas(and tons of other people)) saw it on stock yerterday... In few moments it comes back to stock, its common it on stock
waiting for the list too and did you send in the e-mail to traders with the back weeks yet was going to use the credit from my win to build a whole new deck once I get it :). deciding between HateBear Stax and LD ramp
Looking foward to sunday got a new deck to bring to the party. Still waiting on my e-mail from traders to finish my Azban Siege Rhino deck but I got something even More spicy for This sunday. Anyone like a little Sam Black Control deck
If anyone is around and wants to test new format TheUsualSuspect in game hit me up i'm always around and always bored.
i'm for letting it be legal in blue and see whats happened it can always be banned later in everything if need be.
Also I think Cloudpost should be watched closely... with todays win 7-0 and holinca winning with it a few weeks back not saying it needs a ban but if it starts winning every week. (I drew badly in the finals and think I could have won with better draws but definitely watch it over the next months)
(also even though I feel like I'm bugging at this point I still have no e-mail from Classic Heirloom 10.70 so if you did report it could you please look into it for me)
It's not just about if Swords to Plowshares should be allowed in blue decks or not. It's about partial bans and partial restrictions, so if we unbanned StP in blue decks, we also had to allow Decree of Justice.
Is the format ready for a full control deck with these cards? I wasn't around when they were banned, but I'm guessing they might have been a bit oppressive in order for this rule to take place. A quick deck search in gatherling for heirloom decks with decree show mostly holica's deck with it's 122-17 record... it looks scary
For this reason, I would like to hear the opinion of heirloom veterans. Was UW control too oppressive?
Only after we answer that can we discusse the ban/unban of these cards.
you also have to take that into context though that Holica is one of the best players we have in heirloom..
Like ive played in 9 events with 6 top 4's 66% top 4 ratio (and 1 of the times I missed was playing boggles as a joke going 0-3) and i'm pretty sure that he over hundred's of events and years of playing he has probably close to the same top 4% if not higher.
So just to toss this out there so the veteran's can look over my work here and critique what im saying. Lets look at his deck under a microscope and see why the ban is a mistake.
4 Counterspell (not legal anymore but easily replaced with mana leak)
4 Day of Judgment (strong but taps you out)
4 Fact or Fiction (If any card should be banned this is the card)
4 Preordain (not legal anymore)
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Decree of Justice (if you feel its an issue ban it outright)
2 Anticipate (1 for 1)
2 Dissipate
2 Ratchet Bomb (relatively weak these days)
1 Detention Sphere (just rotated back in and is pretty strong)
1 Elixir of Immortality
1 Forbid (need FOF card advantage to waste buyback usually)
1 Future Sight
1 Miscalculation
1 Scrabbling Claws
I don't see how this decks is that broken.... then I look at what other people were playing and I start to see something.. The competition wasn't nearly as strong as it is now. None of the red decks were as fast or consistent as our RDW is right now. No zoo decks running maindeck Smiter. and Every week that I see holinka losing it was to an agro deck. Which our format is now dominated by. Bloodbraid elf also was not legal back in those day's from what I can see as no RG list is running it.
There are so many cards now that the power level of todays format is significantly higher than the power level of that format. You give me my zoo deck and let me play vs the decks in that format and ill 9-1 vs any 10 decks that played in some of those tourneys. Basically my point is this. STP doesn't make UW destructive and DOJ is honestly kinda just a meh card but if people feel that's the issue outright ban DOJ.
My suggestion is this
Unban Swords in all decks
Ban DOJ for all decks (no deck runs it anyways as its only use is in control decks which its already banned in)
Ban Fact or Fiction if the deck starts dominating (Fact or fiction should have been the card banned in the first place as its the only way to gain true advantage Trading stp for a creature 1 for 1 doesn't win you the game Getting 4 cards off Fact or Fiction does)
DISCLAIMER I'm not a control deck fan and personally would rather control decks not be good in heirloom but I'm just fighting for STP so hard for the principle of the thing :).
Ban DOJ for all decks (no deck runs it anyways as its only use is in control decks which its already banned in)
Decree of Justice was just a strong finisher due to the cycling, (eot make a ton of soldiers) however it's easy to replace with any number of win conditions. I honestly don't think it needs a ban.
Ban Fact or Fiction if the deck starts dominating (Fact or fiction should have been the card banned in the first place as its the only way to gain true advantage Trading stp for a creature 1 for 1 doesn't win you the game Getting 4 cards off Fact or Fiction does)
I agree with this. Fact or Fiction is actually what makes the strategy so dominating. Keep in mind that Fact or Fiction was at one time restricted in Vintage and banned in legacy. This card is insane. I love casting it, but I can also see why we may need to ban it. I believe that we should unban Swords to Plowshares and Decree and then see how the format changes. The argument at the time was that fact or fiction could be replaced with any draw spell, but Fact or Fiction is one of the most powerful card advantage spells available in heirloom. Thirst for Knowledge is good, but it's not as good as fact or fiction.
I don't see how this decks is that broken.... then I look at what other people were playing and I start to see something.. The competition wasn't nearly as strong as it is now. None of the red decks were as fast or consistent as our RDW is right now. No zoo decks running maindeck Smiter. and Every week that I see holinka losing it was to an agro deck. Which our format is now dominated by. Bloodbraid elf also was not legal back in those day's from what I can see as no RG list is running it.
There are so many cards now that the power level of todays format is significantly higher than the power level of that format. You give me my zoo deck and let me play vs the decks in that format and ill 9-1 vs any 10 decks that played in some of those tourneys. Basically my point is this. STP doesn't make UW destructive and DOJ is honestly kinda just a meh card but if people feel that's the issue outright ban DOJ.
Keep in mind that we had Goblins and Ooze combo. Both were fast and consistent, and both sometimes lost to Holica. These decks also have cards that are now banned due to power level.
What you didnt't tell, gumgod, is the fact that Holica's UW control deck ruled Heirloom for half a year! 6 months! It was pure luck that I won the finals! You can see that I lost 0-2 to Holica - bull*****, I was utterly destroyed, as usally - in the 4th round in the same event! In fact, I played that deck for severeal months and lost all (!) encounters with holica, just not the finals:-), so the record must be something 1:15.
The simple rule of that days were: If holica attend the event, he wins.
In the end,I gave up and copied most of holica's deck and so did many others, before the bannings we practically had only UW or Oozedecks as winners( Ooze could win when holica was absent in an event).
The old players remember, that it was consensus, it's just boring. Even holica admitted that he was bored.
So all bannings came together, and it was ( I think) the first time we banned cards not for their personal power or effect only, but instead for preventing 2 certain decks, that completely dominated Heirloom that time.
If you think the powerlevel is much higher than before, and want to remove the bannings for UW, it would be only fair to remove the Ooze bans(Dark ritual and Ooze),too, I think. However, it still feels like opening Pandora's box again for me
that goblin deck honestly seems worse than the Red decks we have running around now in terms of how fast it wins. yes goblins has some ability to play the long game with card advantage but in terms of speed the deck just seems slow even with piledriver.
and its funny you mention ooze because that could probably be unbanned as long as ritual stayed banned. and the deck wouldn't even be that good.
Every control deck that has ever been dominant in the history of Magic has been fueled by its ability to Generate Card advantage (Fact or Fiction is the culprit here not STP) and honestly as we have seen the last 2 weeks with Holinka's cloudpost control deck and the mono blue cloudpost that won this week. Fact or Fiction is the real key to control dominating. a Resolved FoF basically reads you win the game regardless of what other color your playing. If something is going to be banned Fact or Fiction should be it.
If anyone wants I'm also willing to play matches in practice to prove this.. Build holinka's full control deck with no FoF's and play me 10 matches with me playing zoo/reanimator/jund/RDW/even the cloudpost control decks that have won the last 2 weeks.
I'm pretty confident that ill win 6/10 vs Holinka's U/W control deck if I played 2 matches vs it with each of those 5 decks.
To toss this out there I could Potentially step up and host on Sundays (if your unable to find someone to host both days) Or I could be a backup host at least (I hosted tourneys for Traders/Alphabot for years back in the day) However Fridays are out of the question for me as I can't even play on Fridays currently as I do World of Warcraft carries as a side job and our Friday run is right at tourney time :(.
Gatherling is 100% update. It is a hard process. We hace 17000 card and i can add a pool of 500 / 800 cards.
Checker is 0% update. It is ofline
In a few days, i will put in the forum the list with the rotation in/out.
L. Bolt is not legal as you know. His price is more than 0.13 c.
I lost all my decks...
Why is not Lightning Bolt legal in this rotation?
Lightning Bolt from Fire and Lightning is on stock under 0.13...
I hope that Lightning bolt is allowed
I don't see any of them on stock in the webstore.
Someone must bought them, but it was on stock and Lordpipas(and tons of other people)) saw it on stock yerterday... In few moments it comes back to stock, its common it on stock
I think that someone sabotaged the lightning bolt...
Allright holica??
hahahaha
It is back to stock
Anyway, you can use Checker and Gatherling for create yours decks.
If anyone is around and wants to test new format TheUsualSuspect in game hit me up i'm always around and always bored.
http://www.strawpoll.me/10406425
Also I think Cloudpost should be watched closely... with todays win 7-0 and holinca winning with it a few weeks back not saying it needs a ban but if it starts winning every week. (I drew badly in the finals and think I could have won with better draws but definitely watch it over the next months)
(also even though I feel like I'm bugging at this point I still have no e-mail from Classic Heirloom 10.70 so if you did report it could you please look into it for me)
you also have to take that into context though that Holica is one of the best players we have in heirloom..
Like ive played in 9 events with 6 top 4's 66% top 4 ratio (and 1 of the times I missed was playing boggles as a joke going 0-3) and i'm pretty sure that he over hundred's of events and years of playing he has probably close to the same top 4% if not higher.
So just to toss this out there so the veteran's can look over my work here and critique what im saying. Lets look at his deck under a microscope and see why the ban is a mistake.
4 Counterspell (not legal anymore but easily replaced with mana leak)
4 Day of Judgment (strong but taps you out)
4 Fact or Fiction (If any card should be banned this is the card)
4 Preordain (not legal anymore)
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Decree of Justice (if you feel its an issue ban it outright)
2 Anticipate (1 for 1)
2 Dissipate
2 Ratchet Bomb (relatively weak these days)
1 Detention Sphere (just rotated back in and is pretty strong)
1 Elixir of Immortality
1 Forbid (need FOF card advantage to waste buyback usually)
1 Future Sight
1 Miscalculation
1 Scrabbling Claws
25 Lands
5 Island
4 Glacial Fortress (not legal)
4 Sejiri Refuge
3 Ghost Quarter
3 Tranquil Cove
2 Calciform Pools
2 Plains
1 Buried Ruin
1 Urza's Factory
I don't see how this decks is that broken.... then I look at what other people were playing and I start to see something.. The competition wasn't nearly as strong as it is now. None of the red decks were as fast or consistent as our RDW is right now. No zoo decks running maindeck Smiter. and Every week that I see holinka losing it was to an agro deck. Which our format is now dominated by. Bloodbraid elf also was not legal back in those day's from what I can see as no RG list is running it.
There are so many cards now that the power level of todays format is significantly higher than the power level of that format. You give me my zoo deck and let me play vs the decks in that format and ill 9-1 vs any 10 decks that played in some of those tourneys. Basically my point is this. STP doesn't make UW destructive and DOJ is honestly kinda just a meh card but if people feel that's the issue outright ban DOJ.
My suggestion is this
Unban Swords in all decks
Ban DOJ for all decks (no deck runs it anyways as its only use is in control decks which its already banned in)
Ban Fact or Fiction if the deck starts dominating (Fact or fiction should have been the card banned in the first place as its the only way to gain true advantage Trading stp for a creature 1 for 1 doesn't win you the game Getting 4 cards off Fact or Fiction does)
DISCLAIMER I'm not a control deck fan and personally would rather control decks not be good in heirloom but I'm just fighting for STP so hard for the principle of the thing :).
Decree of Justice was just a strong finisher due to the cycling, (eot make a ton of soldiers) however it's easy to replace with any number of win conditions. I honestly don't think it needs a ban.
I agree with this. Fact or Fiction is actually what makes the strategy so dominating. Keep in mind that Fact or Fiction was at one time restricted in Vintage and banned in legacy. This card is insane. I love casting it, but I can also see why we may need to ban it. I believe that we should unban Swords to Plowshares and Decree and then see how the format changes. The argument at the time was that fact or fiction could be replaced with any draw spell, but Fact or Fiction is one of the most powerful card advantage spells available in heirloom. Thirst for Knowledge is good, but it's not as good as fact or fiction.
Keep in mind that we had Goblins and Ooze combo. Both were fast and consistent, and both sometimes lost to Holica. These decks also have cards that are now banned due to power level.
Goblins: (Goblin Piledriver is now banned)
http://gatherling.com/deck.php?mode=view&id=31411
Here you can see goblins took 1st, but still only had a 50% win rate vs Holica
http://gatherling.com/deck.php?mode=view&id=31687
Ooze combo: (Dark Ritual and Necrotic Ooze are now banned)
http://gatherling.com/deck.php?mode=view&id=31535
The simple rule of that days were: If holica attend the event, he wins.
In the end,I gave up and copied most of holica's deck and so did many others, before the bannings we practically had only UW or Oozedecks as winners( Ooze could win when holica was absent in an event).
The old players remember, that it was consensus, it's just boring. Even holica admitted that he was bored.
So all bannings came together, and it was ( I think) the first time we banned cards not for their personal power or effect only, but instead for preventing 2 certain decks, that completely dominated Heirloom that time.
If you think the powerlevel is much higher than before, and want to remove the bannings for UW, it would be only fair to remove the Ooze bans(Dark ritual and Ooze),too, I think. However, it still feels like opening Pandora's box again for me
and its funny you mention ooze because that could probably be unbanned as long as ritual stayed banned. and the deck wouldn't even be that good.
Every control deck that has ever been dominant in the history of Magic has been fueled by its ability to Generate Card advantage (Fact or Fiction is the culprit here not STP) and honestly as we have seen the last 2 weeks with Holinka's cloudpost control deck and the mono blue cloudpost that won this week. Fact or Fiction is the real key to control dominating. a Resolved FoF basically reads you win the game regardless of what other color your playing. If something is going to be banned Fact or Fiction should be it.
If anyone wants I'm also willing to play matches in practice to prove this.. Build holinka's full control deck with no FoF's and play me 10 matches with me playing zoo/reanimator/jund/RDW/even the cloudpost control decks that have won the last 2 weeks.
I'm pretty confident that ill win 6/10 vs Holinka's U/W control deck if I played 2 matches vs it with each of those 5 decks.
Didn't we ban ritual before ooze? I actually just picked up some buried alive again so I could build ooze... You know for science....