Here's an interesting one. Pauper tournament match, game 3, I have a 1-0-1 lead (having forced a draw in game two thanks to, of all things, Crypt Rats).
I'm playing a mono-black deck against my opponent's mono-white, and he drops a Circle of Protection: Black. I know for a fact that there is absolutely no way I can win once this is in play, barring my opponent doing something really stupid and tapping all of his mana on his turn. I can't win, but I'm still trying to play out the game, forcing him to burn time activating his CoP 2-3 times every turn while I just play a land, swing with my dudes, and F6, waiting for him to come up with some actual method of killing me.
Is there anything wrong with this?
(Endnote: I did lose that game, but won game 4 and the match without the clock becoming a huge factor for either of us.)
I don't see anything wrong with making him play it out if you're willing to. You don't know if he's going to make a mistake that let's you win. Same as there's nothing wrong with making someone playing a combo deck, actually go through the full combo and kill you. You are under no obligation to concede.
Activating irrelevant abilities in order to force the opponent to waste time is completely different. That is stalling and it's clearly against the rules.
Ive lost matches in tournaments i feel i should have won to people "playing the clock" like you did. It is the most frustrating feeling in the world. my most memorable was one of my first drafts online and we had a long back and forth game 1 which i eventually won. game 2 went faster. game 3 we both started with about 10 minutes left. my opponent would take a really fast turn, then set all his stops for my turn and would sit for between 2-10 seconds between ok's and activate abilities for nothing just to make me waste time. It was very annoying and then bam i lose to time with him at 2 life.
I think what you did was a pretty crappy thing to do. There are few things more frustrating in Magic than people who try to abuse the time limit in this manner. I would never do it online or in real life and would be fairly quick to call a person out doing such a thing as it's incredibly unsportsmanlike.
Isn't this issue solved by using auto-yield and/or F6? The scenario
from the op is definitely scummy but on the other hand if you're not familiar with the interface then you probably shouldn't be playing in tournaments.
I sorta understand why they warned you but its freekin chess clocks! I suppose the autoyield thing is punishing on people unfamiliar with the software, and leads to some annoying lines of go for 000000000 then something like 3 with crypt rats aiming to not let them respond with what they'd want to respond with. Even with that though, its a chess clock, and the other player used his time to the last 30 seconds, and ran out due to something you could do and he could have dealt with (with autoyield). I mean, if someone gets up and takes a whiz midgame making you lose 10 secs due to opening another tab, can you call stalling? If someone plays a bunch of irrelevant spells before they die is that stalling? If someone has no outs in their deck and just plays fast, is THAT stalling? In the end, mtgo has a clock, and unless they want to be specific with what you can and can't do stalling wise, i can't see how its fair to punish you,
I don't see anything wrong with making him play it out if you're willing to. You don't know if he's going to make a mistake that let's you win. Same as there's nothing wrong with making someone playing a combo deck, actually go through the full combo and kill you. You are under no obligation to concede.
Activating irrelevant abilities in order to force the opponent to waste time is completely different. That is stalling and it's clearly against the rules.
Exactly. This is 100% my opinion as well.
And for those advocating auto-yielding: have you actually tried to auto-yield to stuff before? Like many other MTGO "features", it is faulty and does not guarantee the end result. Chances are you'll end up losing even more time, after having to go through a couple of extra clicks to even mark the auto-yield function.
And for those advocating auto-yielding: have you actually tried to auto-yield to stuff before? Like many other MTGO "features", it is faulty and does not guarantee the end result. Chances are you'll end up losing even more time, after having to go through a couple of extra clicks to even mark the auto-yield function.
Just click F6? I've never had a problem with that. Well, that's not true...sometimes, I click it accidentally and don't have enough time to undo it when I needed to...but I've never had a problem with it FAILING to auto-yield.
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Just click F6? I've never had a problem with that. Well, that's not true...sometimes, I click it accidentally and don't have enough time to undo it when I needed to...but I've never had a problem with it FAILING to auto-yield.
F6 wouldn't work for his opponent in that situation. The OP was activating the Crypt Rats' ability while his opponent was going off. Had he F6'd, he'd probably miss his combo altogether.
I'm not taking about people who play slow or think out their main phase or their declare attackers phase or take a minute or figure out a response to an action I make. I have notice some players will move their priority breaks without any length of time than on your declare attackers phase they just don't pass priority for like 45 seconds to maybe even a minute. A couple times when learning the mtgo interface I would think I was lagging and maybe double click through my attack phase. Today in a draft I notice again the same behavior. Moving through priority with no waiting as soon as it got to my declare attackers if I was in a position to deal combat damage to him he would take up to a minute on each turn of mine to pass priority. Is that also stalling by rules ?
I'm not taking about people who play slow or think out their main phase or their declare attackers phase or take a minute or figure out a response to an action I make. I have notice some players will move their priority breaks without any length of time than on your declare attackers phase they just don't pass priority for like 45 seconds to maybe even a minute. A couple times when learning the mtgo interface I would think I was lagging and maybe double click through my attack phase. Today in a draft I notice again the same behavior. Moving through priority with no waiting as soon as it got to my declare attackers if I was in a position to deal combat damage to him he would take up to a minute on each turn of mine to pass priority. Is that also stalling by rules ?
No. MTGO has a chess clock, so him "stalling" that way is actually a benefit to you, since all it does is deplete his own clock, inching him closer to a loss. It's not like real life, where delaying like that inches the game towards a draw and/or win for him given the appropriate conditions, nor is it like the previous examples in this thread, where players are activating unnecessary abilities for the sole purpose of depleting their opponent's clock.
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Yes. As the above poster has noted, the definition of stalling is different on MTGO where each player has his own clock. If the opponent is simply running out his own clock, I don't think you can accuse him of cheating by stalling.
In fact, if he wanted to cheat by stalling, he would be doing the exact opposite - he would be playing his early turns really fast so that if the game drags on to the later stages he won't be the one to run out of his clock.
No they play their turn fast/normal than on your beginning of combat phase they have a break set and sit on priority for almost a minute if and only if your going to have the ability to cause combat damage. If I have zero creatures out, they don't sit on the break. Even with no mana open and no blockers they sit on the break. When I first dealt with this I thought maybe it was lag and clicked the mouse and boom I'm out of my combat phase. Yesterday the op was very obvious on what he was doing.
Something all of you are missing and I hate to point out. To all the people who ask why his opponent didn't auto-yield to the ability or some such. When you are storming you have lots of mana in your pool. When you have mana floating you cannot yield to ANY ability at all. You can select auto-yield to this ability all day long but the facts are, it won't work. So the opponent had no choice but to respond to the ability.
No they play their turn fast/normal than on your beginning of combat phase they have a break set and sit on priority for almost a minute if and only if your going to have the ability to cause combat damage. If I have zero creatures out, they don't sit on the break. Even with no mana open and no blockers they sit on the break. When I first dealt with this I thought maybe it was lag and clicked the mouse and boom I'm out of my combat phase. Yesterday the op was very obvious on what he was doing.
Yeah, but...all he's doing is running down his own clock.
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Agreed with all that it is a scumbag move. If someone wants to play optimally, and have opponent play things out, that seems fine to me. With something like this that does nothing but waste clock, that is really unsportsmanlike and does not belong in the game. For those saying the opponent just played faster....it is an ability he could do over, and over, and over, however many times he wanted. If the opponent even had twenty minutes left on the clock, he could still do this and it would just turn the whole game into a race of if the opponent can use less time clicking "ok" than him using crypt rats ability, (unless opponent just wants to give up on storming and basically forfeit the game.) Really bad behavior for the game, and I think not getting a banning or suspension of some sort was being let off very light
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Isn't this issue solved by using auto-yield and/or F6? The scenario
from the op is definitely scummy but on the other hand if you're not familiar with the interface then you probably shouldn't be playing in tournaments.
I agree with this. Ops actions may be questionable but no action, even a warning, should have been taken.
I agree with this. Ops actions may be questionable but no action, even a warning, should have been taken.
You think the opponent should be forced to f6 and give up his own turn when trying to combo out? F6 would not solve this issue at all as he did it during opponents turn.
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You think the opponent should be forced to f6 and give up his own turn when trying to combo out? F6 would not solve this issue at all as he did it during opponents turn.
He doesnt have to f6. he can auto-yield to just the crypt rats ability and still combo off. If his combo involves creatures then i guess he should of just played faster. 25 minutes should be more than enough to finish a match, if op's opponent wants to complain it should be to wizards about them taking away an extra 5 minutes not too long back not about his opponent activating an ability repetitively. Aside from questionable sportsmanship, i find no reason op should be at fault.
The OP intended to exploit the clock to win the match. This is defined in the MTR as Stalling, and is illegal. (Is Cheating, actually)
You can argue with the rules if you like, but the MTR apply to sanctioned magic as much as the Comp Rules do.
The difference between other violations and cheating is intent, in all circumstances. If the intent of his actions was to do something other than screw with the opponent's clock, this wouldn't be cheating. This is not hard to understand, people. It actual doesn't matter what the action that's being taken is, the question is simple: is that action intended to cause the clock to affect the match.
He doesnt have to f6. he can auto-yield to just the crypt rats ability and still combo off. If his combo involves creatures then i guess he should of just played faster. 25 minutes should be more than enough to finish a match, if op's opponent wants to complain it should be to wizards about them taking away an extra 5 minutes not too long back not about his opponent activating an ability repetitively. Aside from questionable sportsmanship, i find no reason op should be at fault.
Auto yielding with mana in your pool generally doesn't work, (I will assume that he would have mana in his pool since opponent was playing storm.) While I agree that 25 minutes is more than enough time for a match, the crypt rats ability can be activated an infinite amount of times, and could be stalled down to 0 no matter how much time was left.
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On Magic Online each player has a time bank of 25 minutes for the entire match. Each player's clock ticks down when they have priority or are resolving a spells/abilities.
They are likely on the look out for that considering that its been brought up recently by several people.
I think most people will take a win on a timeout if possible, forcing a timeout via a repeat ability is pretty cheap, but your opponent should have auto-yeilded. Thus I don't think you're any more of a giant douche than anyone else.
I'd take the warning and be careful. I certainly wouldn't use the crypt rats trick again. I might move some of my more valuable cards I'm not using right now to another account just to be sure.
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I really don't understand how people keep saying he should of used auto yield. The opponent was in the middle of going off with storm, he almost certainly had mana in his pool. Auto yield does not work in this situation! The OP could of clicked the crypt rats for 0 as many times as he would of liked and turned it into a race of who can click faster before someone runs out of time no matter how much time was on clock.
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and the guy activating the ability for 0 would always win that race because he can auto-yield his own effects and the opponent can't because of mana in the pool. Therefore gaming the interface mechanics to win, thus CHEATING.
As a side note, it doesn't actually matter if what you're doing is successful or a good way to cheat: if you're trying to cheat, you're cheating. Even if you're very bad at it.
So the fact that a player can spam Crypt Rats to time out their opponent is bad, but it's not cheating just because it's effective. If they tried some other method to time their opponent out that was less clever (like trying this trick when the opponent can auto-yield) that's still cheating.
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I don't see anything wrong with making him play it out if you're willing to. You don't know if he's going to make a mistake that let's you win. Same as there's nothing wrong with making someone playing a combo deck, actually go through the full combo and kill you. You are under no obligation to concede.
Activating irrelevant abilities in order to force the opponent to waste time is completely different. That is stalling and it's clearly against the rules.
It was my first time playing the format. I had no idea CoP: Black was a card in it. :-P
from the op is definitely scummy but on the other hand if you're not familiar with the interface then you probably shouldn't be playing in tournaments.
http://cubetutor.com/viewcube/1959
And for those advocating auto-yielding: have you actually tried to auto-yield to stuff before? Like many other MTGO "features", it is faulty and does not guarantee the end result. Chances are you'll end up losing even more time, after having to go through a couple of extra clicks to even mark the auto-yield function.
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Just click F6? I've never had a problem with that. Well, that's not true...sometimes, I click it accidentally and don't have enough time to undo it when I needed to...but I've never had a problem with it FAILING to auto-yield.
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No. MTGO has a chess clock, so him "stalling" that way is actually a benefit to you, since all it does is deplete his own clock, inching him closer to a loss. It's not like real life, where delaying like that inches the game towards a draw and/or win for him given the appropriate conditions, nor is it like the previous examples in this thread, where players are activating unnecessary abilities for the sole purpose of depleting their opponent's clock.
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In fact, if he wanted to cheat by stalling, he would be doing the exact opposite - he would be playing his early turns really fast so that if the game drags on to the later stages he won't be the one to run out of his clock.
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Yeah, but...all he's doing is running down his own clock.
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I agree with this. Ops actions may be questionable but no action, even a warning, should have been taken.
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You think the opponent should be forced to f6 and give up his own turn when trying to combo out? F6 would not solve this issue at all as he did it during opponents turn.
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He doesnt have to f6. he can auto-yield to just the crypt rats ability and still combo off. If his combo involves creatures then i guess he should of just played faster. 25 minutes should be more than enough to finish a match, if op's opponent wants to complain it should be to wizards about them taking away an extra 5 minutes not too long back not about his opponent activating an ability repetitively. Aside from questionable sportsmanship, i find no reason op should be at fault.
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You can argue with the rules if you like, but the MTR apply to sanctioned magic as much as the Comp Rules do.
The difference between other violations and cheating is intent, in all circumstances. If the intent of his actions was to do something other than screw with the opponent's clock, this wouldn't be cheating. This is not hard to understand, people. It actual doesn't matter what the action that's being taken is, the question is simple: is that action intended to cause the clock to affect the match.
Auto yielding with mana in your pool generally doesn't work, (I will assume that he would have mana in his pool since opponent was playing storm.) While I agree that 25 minutes is more than enough time for a match, the crypt rats ability can be activated an infinite amount of times, and could be stalled down to 0 no matter how much time was left.
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They are likely on the look out for that considering that its been brought up recently by several people.
I think most people will take a win on a timeout if possible, forcing a timeout via a repeat ability is pretty cheap, but your opponent should have auto-yeilded. Thus I don't think you're any more of a giant douche than anyone else.
I'd take the warning and be careful. I certainly wouldn't use the crypt rats trick again. I might move some of my more valuable cards I'm not using right now to another account just to be sure.
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So the fact that a player can spam Crypt Rats to time out their opponent is bad, but it's not cheating just because it's effective. If they tried some other method to time their opponent out that was less clever (like trying this trick when the opponent can auto-yield) that's still cheating.