Fair warning, this is a 3-0 draft in which I drafted a pretty great deck. But there are still plenty of things I feel like I did wrong, or at least questionably, and would appreciate feedback.
Okay, a bomb rare in FRF, big surprise. And yes, it really is a bomb for anyone who disagrees. Also of note is Heelcutter, and as a distant third, Lightform.
Nice to pick up a Beastmaster 2nd pick. I think it's usually incorrect to pass this despite the bomby nature of FRF rares, so my neighbor must have gotten something good. Something hopefully not green. This makes me want to play UG, but here's the thing: I HATE the UG deck, and hardly ever go for it. This is going to be one of my first attempts at it in a long time.
Pack 1 pick 3:
Typhoid Rats
--> Ethereal Ambush
Enhanced Awareness
Gurmag Angler
Return to the Earth
Mardu Scout
Archers of Qarsi
Fierce Invocation
Feral Krushok
Qarsi High Priest
Cached Defenses
Crucible of the Spirit Dragon
Scoured Barrens
I guess this seals it. The next best card is Typhoid Rats, and I don't think you go into black on the basis of Rats, do you? Are they a high enough pick to justify that, if I'm already probably UG?
Pack 1 pick 4:
Ancestral Vengeance
War Flare
Soul Summons
Sultai Skullkeeper
Reach of Shadows
Harsh Sustenance
Collateral Damage
Temur Runemark
--> Write into Being
Rite of Undoing
Diplomacy of the Wastes
Swiftwater Cliffs
There's a Reach of Shadows, and the whole Sultai thing is calling, but the biggest thing I remember about this deck is that it never has enough creatures. Is this a terrible pick? There's also a Rite of Undoing, but I don't feel like it matches up very well with what I have so far.
Pack 1 pick 5:
Ancestral Vengeance
War Flare
Soul Summons
Sultai Skullkeeper
Collateral Damage
Temur Runemark
--> Write into Being
Renowned Weaponsmith
Sibsig Muckdraggers
Vaultbreaker
Dismal Backwater
Basically the same pick as before, without the cause for debate. I note the Backwater and am sad it isn't likely to table, but at this point Temur is still possible. I haven't committed to much of anything besides blue.
Speculative, based on the black I've seen so far. Not much else to take anyway.
Pack 1 pick 8:
Pressure Point
--> Whisk Away
Sandblast
Map the Wastes
Ainok Guide
Renowned Weaponsmith
Winds of Qal Sisma
Hewed Stone Retainers
Seems late, happy to pick up good removal. (All-star in the deck, as it turned out.)
Pack 1 pick 9:
Hooded Assassin
Grim Contest
Dragon Bell Monk
Great-Horn Krushok
Ambush Krotiq
Gore Swine
--> Jungle Hollow I didn't take the Contest here, not sure if that's right or not. It's a good card, don't get me wrong, and it fits the sort of deck I'm thinking about and has synergy with Beastmaster. I just really like lands over speculative picks, even if I'm really really likely to play them. I dunno. How wrong am I here?
Pack 1 pick 10:
Pressure Point
Map the Wastes
Lightning Shrieker
Ainok Guide
Sage's Reverie
--> Thornwood Falls
This is easy. If I was Abzan I might consider the Guide just for Outlast combo-ness over an on-color dual, but it seems pretty bad in Sultai.
Pack 1 pick 11:
--> Enhanced Awareness
Archers of Qarsi
Feral Krushok
Cached Defenses
Crucible of the Spirit Dragon
Well, this was my third choice from this pack, so I guess I'll take it? (I note it ended up as the last cut from my maindeck and I never wanted to side it in, so maybe I overvalue it in this type of deck?)
Pack 1 pick 12:
Ancestral Vengeance
War Flare
--> Sultai Skullkeeper
Temur Runemark
Skullkeeper could make the main if end up drafting a few good Delve cards I want to keep in. Also a relevant sideboard card against faster decks, maybe? I brought it in once for that reason.
I have two black duals, but I think I'm not going to end up base black here, and Vengeance seems awful in that scenario. Weaponsmith is a joke. Runemark is high variance but at least it's a strong tempo play. (I ended up siding it in twice and it did good work both matches. I wouldn't take it earlier than this though.)
Pack 1 pick 14:
Sibsig Host
--> Mardu Runemark
This is 90% a mispick I think. I don't mind hating an aggro card over something I'm definitely not going to play, but 1) no one plays this main (although I would probably be sad if they did), and 2) Host is actually a reasonable sideboard card against the sorts of decks that would consider running it.
Pack 1 pick 15:
--> Sultai Runemark
Ironically, I sided this in, too. Not as good as the green one, but I still got valuable tempo out of it that saved a game I probably would have otherwise lost.
------ KTK ------
Pack 2 pick 1:
Alabaster Kirin
Tormenting Voice
Naturalize
War Behemoth
Sidisi's Pet
Glacial Stalker
--> Thornwood Falls
Ponyback Brigade
Jeskai Banner
Weave Fate
Chief of the Edge
Abzan Battle Priest
Highspire Mantis
Kheru Lich Lord
Forest
I have nothing much to reanimate. Infiltrator is a nonbo with Lich Lord since it can never be unblockable that way, and it'll just be a vanilla 2/3. And the card just isn't that great anyway. That said, Glacial Stalker might have been right? I keep undervaluing boring creatures, which is what this deck is all about. But blah, first pick Stalker is just ugh...
Yes I have an unhealthy love for mana fixing, but what else am I going to take in this pack? Alpine Grizzly? Arrow Storm? Scavenger? None of those compete with a triland, right?
I debate Quiet Contemplation over this. Not sure which is better here. Chill is mostly for racing, QC is for a longer game, and I have no idea where I really fall on that scale at this point.
I considered taking the Colossodon here, and in retrospect I think it would have been slightly better? I found myself wishing for a big creature more often than I found myself wishing for cards, but that may have mostly been because of the card quality of the third pack, which we'll get to.
I hate seeing cards like Ponyback Brigade go this late when I can't take them. Someone's getting a gift. I'm not taking a second Weave Fate, though, which makes me regret the last pick even more.
Pack 2 pick 10:
Salt Road Patrol
Sultai Banner
Kin-Tree Warden
--> Disdainful Stroke
Seek the Horizon
Mountain
I don't need the Banner, I took all the awesome fixing from before! I never sided this in, but I might have, and then I would have felt like a genius! More seriously, Warden was almost certainly the better sideboard card if that's what I wanted.
Definitely good karma. This is another card people underrate *so* badly. Best card in the deck.
Pack 3 pick 7:
War Behemoth
Swift Kick
--> Singing Bell Strike
Shambling Attendants
Weave Fate
Jeskai Banner
Gurmag Swiftwing
Take Up Arms
Forest
I go back and forth on this card. 7th pick seems high, but I could use the removal in the early game. I think if I had picked up a Kin-Tree Warden earlier, it would have filled that slot better, thinking about it now, but it didn't occur to me at the time. Turns out it did its job fine this time around, so I won't complain.
Pack 3 pick 8:
Erase
Tormenting Voice
Whirlwind Adept
Efreet Weaponmaster
Lens of Clarity
--> Cranial Archive
Witness of the Ages
Forest
It'd have to be a weird game for me to want to side this in, but I do have Sultai Ascendancy and a little insurance against grindy decks can't be a bad thing. Witness and Adept would probably not make the main and I can't imagine wanting to ever side them in.
Oh good, I've been thinking one of these would be nice. 9th pick in third pack is about as late as possible, so this was a bit of a lucksack to see this table.
So I basically am mostly blue, with a totally awesome mana base. No way I can lose with a mana base this great, right?[/spoiler]
[spoiler=games]Match 1 Game 1: Opponent curves out Gurmag Swiftwing, Watcher of the Roost, Alabaster Kirin, and proceeds to try to race. I start with Jeskai Sage and Write into Being, and then Injury his Kirin so it's a 0/1, but I'm still a little bit behind. Turn 5 Ethereal Ambush helps with that. He's still trying to race and I find out why when he casts Harsh Sustenance to try to win, but I have Throttle for the save and he concedes.
I figure if he wants to race then I'll let him race and side in a couple of 2-drops instead of Ascendancy or Weave Fate. Game 2: He starts with Typhoid Rats into Ainok Bon-Kin while I go Rakshasa Deathdealer into Jeskai Infiltrator. He tries to hold me off with the Rats while he Outlasts; I hit it with Crippling Chill to get past but he has Pressure Point to stop the Infiltrator anyway. Next turn he Despises me to find I have Ethereal Ambush and Whisk Away waiting for him and casts Soul Summons. On my turn I attack into his 4/3 first striker and manifest, he realizes he has no good blocks and just ragequits.[/spoiler]
Match 2 Game 1: I lead with Write into Being, then Sultai Ascendancy. Opponent has Alpine Grizzly into Sultai Flayer, with Bant colored lands? Guess he's 5-color. I try to catch up on the board with Ethereal Ambush and kill his Grizzly. He just casts Ainok Guide to fetch a Swamp. I'm feeling reasonably stable and flip up Tuskguard Captain from face-down mode to outlast it, but then he casts Armament Corps. I have Whisk Away in hand for the now 5/6 Flayer and Ascendancy shows me Throttle for the Corps, and I foolishly put it in my hand immediately, failing to realize I can't cast both. So I Whisk his 5/6 and take 4, and then he casts Kin-Tree Invocation to get a 4/4 for 2, followed by Hewed Stone Retainers. So I'm facing three 4/4s with a 3/4 and a manifested land. I get Thousand Winds and again foolishly put it in my hand instead of a land I could really use, even though I really want to cast Throttle and don't have the mana to use both again. So I cast Throttle and he responds with Abzan Charm and I lose horribly after playing horribly.
I side out the Tuskguard Captain and something else in favor of both on-color Runemarks on the basis that I need something to let my creature keep up with his if he gets going like that again. This may have been wrong. Game 2: I keep a hand of 6 lands and Ascendancy, which is pretty much the perfect opener I think? Not that I do much correctly with it. I draw Hooting Mandrills and *could* lay it turn four by milling away a Throttle, but I decide I'd rather have the defensive spell because he's shown me so many 4/4s. This is so wrong. Never do that. Anyway, he's on nothing but Ainok Guide so I feel okay in laying a turn 4 Jeskai Windscout. He continues to have nothing and so instead of pushing my advantage with a big 4/4 I play Write into Being for value (and incidentally manifest Infiltrator. So sweet). He finally has a play, which is Armament Corps again, sigh. He comes in for three with his Guide and I'm not gonna block it with my sweet manifest of course. On my turn I get clever and attack into his Corps with my Windscout and manifest, and flip up Infiltrator to create two blockers, and then cast the Mandrills for 1 mana. Good right? Except the stupid Throttle I'd been saving, and gimping myself to get hold of, can't be cast with this line! So the Throttle sits dead in my hand as I watch my opponent Savage Punch my Mandrills and then play a 7/7 Kin-Tree Invocation. He attacks with his 3/3 Guide and 7/7 Corps, I double block the Guide with my two manifests and he gets lucky and kills the Infiltrator, leaving me with 6 land, a manifested land and a tapped Windscout, I'm at 7 life, with Throttle and Thousand Winds in hand, and he has a 7/7 token and a 5/5 Corps. Contrary to what the recording says, the Ainok Guide did not magically become a 12/12 right here; unfortunately, the recording got corrupted around this point and so I can't be super specific as to what happened from here. I recall chumping the token and Throttling the Corps next turn when he attacked, so things weren't completely hopeless, but what followed was an incredibly fun match where Ascendancy did serious work keeping me in the game at 1 life until I literally drew my whole deck, and ended up killing him on the last possible turn. It was great, even if I did get there by totally being awful. Game 3: He got started first with Ainok Guide into Heir of the Wilds while I did the Sultai Ascendancy into Hooting Mandrills thing, correctly this time. He plays Cached Defenses to make his Guide a 4/4 and attacks with just his Heir for 3. I'm cool with that, take my turn, do nothing, and then Ambush his Heir next turn when he tries to do it again. Then Singing Bell Strike on his Guide and Sultai Runemark on my Mandrills put me way out ahead, until he Savage Punches on his turn to clear the board. It was a 3 for 2 for him, but I have Ascendancy and a clear board now, which basically means I win? A consecutive Pine Walker, Jeskai Windscout, Whisk Away, and Rakshasa Deathdealer confirms that to be true. On to match 3! Match 3
Game 1: This game was crazy. He goes turn 2 Chief of the Edge, turn 3 Outcast, turn 4 Mardu Hordemate, all while I manage a morphed Krumar Bond-Kin and a Sultai Charm on the Outcast to stem the bleeding slightly. I had Ascendancy in hand but no way is that going to be useful in time right now. On his next attack I block his 2/1 warrior token and unmorph to kill it, and of course he has the Feat of Resistance to kill my only creature. My board is empty, and I'm at 16 life since he's been declining to attack with the Chief up to this point (although I'm sure it was a mistake at least on the last turn, since he obviously has Feat). Anyway, I topdeck Thousand Winds, but can only play a tapland this turn, so I have to play it face down and hope to draw a basic on my next turn I also play Singing Bell Strike on his 3/3 Hordemate before he plays Dragon Bell Monk attacks me down to 13, again declining to attack with his Chief. And so of course, I do draw a basic, and play it. I *really* want to blow him out this turn and take over the game, but he just attacks with his 1/1 flying token and plays a morph. What a letdown; I get the only guy in the world who plays around Thousand Winds when he's one turn away from winning. I don't flip because there's not much point: I have nothing else in my hand of note and I'm not stabilizing any other way here. On his turn he flips up a morph as Sage-Eye Harrier and baits my trick a bit harder with it also, for 4 total instead of 1. I shrug and bite the bullet and flip up the Winds to bounce his token, flier, and the Hordemate I tapped down earlier with SBS. On my turn I finally play Ascendancy and Hooting Mandrills (lucky topdeck ahoy) to hopefully stabilize at 13 life against his three creatures, and attack with Winds. But this dude is not even close to being out of gas. This whole time he's only played 4 lands and he's still got a full grip of cards. He plays Soul Summons and Typhoid Rats and attacks with everything; I block the Chief, finally, and go to 7. On my turn Ascendancy shows me Ambush so I attack with the Winds again to get him down to 10. He attacks with everything again and has another Feat of Resistance to push his Dragon Bell Monk through, so I take 5, killing his Rats and token and leaving him with the Monk and a manifest. I chose not to block with my other manifest because it was Jeskai Windscout and I was greedy. But of course he had Mardu Hordemate #2 to follow all this up. I set up Weave Fate into Throttle (and Write into Being) with Ascendancy to kill his Hordemate but I can't attack safely anymore, and I'm tapped out, so I leave all my guys behind. He replays his Harrier and passes, on my turn Ascendancy gives my Whisk Away (whew!) and I play Write to manifest Tuskguard Captain. I feel a bit safer since I have removal and can also flip up Windscout to block the flier if I need to, so I attack with Winds to get him to 5. On his turn he slams Rush of Battle but I trade away/chump everything and Whisk his Harrier Away and survive, leaving him with a manifest, and then he follows up with Gurmag Angler! This guy's deck is insane. I have never seen a limited deck capable of this much sustained pressure. Because of Rush of Battle, he's at 8 life and my only creature is Winds again, and I'm stuck at 2, so I can't attack, but I pick up Debilitating Injury off Ascendancy to kill his manifest and not just die. He plays Harrier for a third time (:p) and passes. I play Abzan Beastmaster; if he has any trick at all at this point I'm basically dead but I think I've about exhausted his resources because he just plays Soulflayer and passes. From there I'm drawing two cards a turn and Ascendancy means I get to pick what they are, and he can't keep up anymore and just loses to skybeats, but sheesh. That was a hard game. Game 2: Not as good as the first, he misses an early land drop and I get an early Mandrills and his deck just folds. Kind of a shame, it was the only really bad game of the afternoon, but I guess game 1 made up for it.[spoiler]
Pack 1 pick 6: Rugged Highlands over Jeskai Sage (UGxx ideally wants to splash both red and black cards, not run mediocre blue ones)
Pack 2 pick 3: Dragonscale Boon over Hooting Mandrills (I always find better delve cards to run like Treasure Cruise)
Pack 2 pick 6: Rugged Highlands over Krumar Bond-Kin (again, fixing over mediocrity)
Pack 2 pick 8: Longshot Squad over Weave Fate over Tusked Colossodon
Pack 2 pick 9: Weave Fate over Naturalize (these two packs together mean you effectively chose Naturalize over Longshot Squad, and there's no way that's correct)
Pack 3 pick 5: Snowhorn Rider over Sultai Charm (the payoff for taking the red fixing)
Pack 3 pick 6: Archers' Parapet over Sultai Ascendancy (I think this card is pretty terrible in limited)
Pack 3 pick 7: Shambling Attendants over Singing Bell Strike (my one delve card)
I would have run Wetland Sambar and Sultai Skullkeeper over Singing Bell Strike and Sultai Ascendancy in your final list. Your deck looks sorta decent, but let's look at the number of evasion creatures you have: 3. Proactive 2-drops: 2. I think you could very easily fall behind to a normal draw form the opponent and even if they are slow, you could have a board stall with them chipping away with a flyer.
I side out the Tuskguard Captain and something else in favor of both on-color Runemarks on the basis that I need something to let my creature keep up with his if he gets going like that again. This may have been wrong.
Yeah, I think that was incorrect. Outlast creatures are a pretty good way of stabilising vs 4/4s.
I keep a hand of 6 lands and Ascendancy, which is pretty much the perfect opener I think?
No, that seems terrible. You do nothing to affect the board on either turn 2 or 3, basically guaranteeing that you will be on the back foot the entire game. And you don't have any great stabilising bomb like Duneblast to catch you up (I guess thousand winds kinda counts).
p1p4: I'd have taken Reach of Shadows over Write into Being. But I don't have any issues going into Sultai.
p1p9: Grim Contest over Jungle Hollow. Good removal, and particularly good in Sultai when you get the right cards.
p1p13: Ancestral Vengeance, though I'm not necessarily looking to play it.
p2p1: I would have taken Glacial Stalker over a land.
p2p8: Longshot over Weave Fate.
p3p7: Shambling Attendants. I've got two more removal spells than you have, and you have the Ascendancy at this point which makes this card pretty decent.
p3p10: Whaa? This never happens to me. That card is great.
I'm probably running Reach, Grim Contest, Glacial Stalker and Longshot Squad over Write into Being, Singing Bell Strike, Crippling Chill and Weave Fate in the starting deck. And I've got two less fixing lands than you ended up with.
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
Well, merl, I think you seriously underestimate Sultai Ascendancy. That card is uber fantastic in limited. You're probably right that I should have started with more 2-drops, but mostly to enable the Ascendancy to dominate the game better. Jeskai Sage is also a pretty good card and one I'm generally happy taking as high as 3rd pick.
Also, my experience with trying to use Outlast to stabilize has been generally poor. Outlast is more of a combo thing where you use up tempo advantage in the early game to turn small creatures into endgame threats. As a come-from-behind mechanic, it sucks pretty bad, since you have to play the creature, then keep it tapped for a turn or two, and all the while hope they don't just cast Crippling Chill or Throttle on the card you're investing a ton of mana and life into. When I'm losing a tempo game, I'd much rather play a Runemark and actually gain tempo. Sure, maybe they have the removal spell, but at least then I know that before I spend 3 turns setting up my saving grace. Potential card disadvantage is not inherently worse than guaranteed tempo disadvantage.
Sultai Ascendancy is uber fantastic? I'd argue that it's vaguely unplayable in your deck, given that you only have one delve card, no other graveyard synergy and two of your four manifest cards already fix the draw to help control what you manifest. It's not tremendously different from Thassa, which wasn't a good limited card. A do-nothing when it comes into play enchantment that slowly helps fix draws and maybe can make a big play with enough enablers (good delve cards being cheaper versus blue permanents enabling you to get a big creature), without the potentially game ending unblockable upside. I think you're right that people might underestimate it when they suggest that it's completely unplayable, but you're vastly overrating it, especially in this deck. I'd have taken Archer's Parapet or a sideboard Windstorm over it.
I do agree about outlast, though. I hate having to play outlast cards when behind. They're almost always mediocre in power/toughness at first, which means they don't help you for the turn they come into play or a turn or two later when they're tapped.
The OP overvalues fixing by about 1 million times. Some people tend to get too cute and forget BREEAD even though it still applies. Yes he won, but some of those land picks are indefensible.
With good mana, Sultai Ascendancy is about the same as Monastery Siege. Ascendancy loses out a little if you get it late because you can't pitch dead cards, but cast on turn three it gives really good value over the course of a game. Also, he's on the play against a 5 color deck, which doesn't really put him at risk of being run over. I'd keep the hand too. Thassa was in a much faster format, and Scry 2 is over twice as good as Scry 1.
I agree with Merl about keeping the tuskguard captain in. Outlast is a little slow, but it gives you the +2/+2 for less mana and not an extra card. Runemarks are risky, and I wouldn't use them except when trying to push through extra damage in an aggro/tempo deck. Plus there aren't very many good targets for the runemarks anyway. A lot of your creatures will still trade for a 4/4 with a runemark on, particularly morphs and manifests.
Okay, I'll grant that there are plenty of situation where it's a terrible topdeck, but this format is nothing if not forgiving of low-immediate-impact 3-mana spells. Theros was a fast format and not a great comparison, and if you can get a few turns with it under your belt to sculpt your hand, Ascendancy is just a better looter that the opponent can't kill. I'd probably be a lot less high on the card if it were in FRF, but getting one late in a draft when you already know your colors and general strategy is truly ideal. This particular deck was functional in large part because of that one card.
The OP overvalues fixing by about 1 million times. Some people tend to get too cute and forget BREEAD even though it still applies. Yes he won, but some of those land picks are indefensible.
This is probably true. I'm curious which particular picks you thought were bad, though?
With good mana, Sultai Ascendancy is about the same as Monastery Siege. Ascendancy loses out a little if you get it late because you can't pitch dead cards, but cast on turn three it gives really good value over the course of a game. Also, he's on the play against a 5 color deck, which doesn't really put him at risk of being run over. I'd keep the hand too. Thassa was in a much faster format, and Scry 2 is over twice as good as Scry 1.
Scrying is a good effect, but you're down a card when you play it, and WAY down on tempo as well. I just would rather have a creature every time.
You're probably right that I should have started with more 2-drops, but mostly to enable the Ascendancy to dominate the game better. Jeskai Sage is also a pretty good card and one I'm generally happy taking as high as 3rd pick.
It's alright, but generally I want my 2-drops to have 2 power without me needing to do anything special with them.
Also, my experience with trying to use Outlast to stabilize has been generally poor. Outlast is more of a combo thing where you use up tempo advantage in the early game to turn small creatures into endgame threats. As a come-from-behind mechanic, it sucks pretty bad, since you have to play the creature, then keep it tapped for a turn or two, and all the while hope they don't just cast Crippling Chill or Throttle on the card you're investing a ton of mana and life into. When I'm losing a tempo game, I'd much rather play a Runemark and actually gain tempo. Sure, maybe they have the removal spell, but at least then I know that before I spend 3 turns setting up my saving grace. Potential card disadvantage is not inherently worse than guaranteed tempo disadvantage.
All good points. However, if your problem was facing down multiple 4/4 creatures (your justification for siding out the 2/3) then I think that is flawed logic.
I agree with Merl about keeping the tuskguard captain in. Outlast is a little slow, but it gives you the +2/+2 for less mana and not an extra card. Runemarks are risky, and I wouldn't use them except when trying to push through extra damage in an aggro/tempo deck. Plus there aren't very many good targets for the runemarks anyway. A lot of your creatures will still trade for a 4/4 with a runemark on, particularly morphs and manifests.
The OP overvalues fixing by about 1 million times. Some people tend to get too cute and forget BREEAD even though it still applies. Yes he won, but some of those land picks are indefensible.
I disagree. He may value it more highly than YOU do, but in my feedback I never suggested that he take a spell over hte land he took. I think all of his land picks were correct. If anything, he should have been more aggressive in taking lands.
P1P9:Grim contest is fantastic removal in sultai with all of the large butt zombies that you could be playing, or archer's parapet. I would always want some in my sultai deck. take this over the land
P2P1 Kheru lich lord is a decent creature that can dominate in the late game, and again a great card for sultai. Take this over the land.
P2P2 Sultai scavenger over the land. Flying win conditions are good you know.
I agree about both Grim Contest and Sultai Scavenger, in the sense that if you know you're going to be Sultai they are both better than the lands. However, I think that Sultai is the worst wedge by quite a margin, and I would be fighting tooth and nail to avoid being solidly in those colours. So I devalue the black cards accordingly (since I really want to be UGxxx rather than have a heavy commitment to any of the tertiary colours).
Kheru lich lord on the other hand I think is not only not a bomb, it's not decent. It's not even average. I put it roughly on a power level as Witness of the Ages (although maybe it's slightly worse than that because it can't be played before turn 6 and is colour intensive).
I agree that I would take Grim Contest over a dual land, but I disagree on the others.
My picks probably would've been very close to Axelrod's. A P1P4 Reach of Shadows would've made me think Black was likely open (while red didn't seem open at all at that point). I think I would've taken a dual over Crippling Chill P2P7 and Kin-tree Warden over Disdainful Stroke P2P10 as well. I'm not sure that I would've ended up with a better deck, but that's probably what I would have done.
If you're already legitimately Sultai, the color requirements mean very little at 6 mana. If you don't have one of each color by then, you're probably in plenty of trouble otherwise. I don't think it's a bomb or anything, but I don't think it's bad. If I can take it over nothing else and am Sultai, I'm going to run it every time. A 4/4 body for six isn't going to hurt you much and the ability is quite good. If I had a crapload of Delve, its power goes down since I have to constantly struggle with whether or not to remove a creature or use it with Kheru, but still.
If you're already legitimately Sultai, the color requirements mean very little at 6 mana. If you don't have one of each color by then, you're probably in plenty of trouble otherwise. I don't think it's a bomb or anything, but I don't think it's bad. If I can take it over nothing else and am Sultai, I'm going to run it every time. A 4/4 body for six isn't going to hurt you much and the ability is quite good. If I had a crapload of Delve, its power goes down since I have to constantly struggle with whether or not to remove a creature or use it with Kheru, but still.
I honestly consider the ability to be quite bad. In an aggressive deck, it would be pretty decent, but there aren't any aggressive Sultai decks that I know of. It's hard to rely on the ability to finish the game because while technically repeatable, you'll often run out things to reanimate before getting the opponent to 0, unless you've already dealt significant damage. It's also fairly slow and mana intensive, and a 6 mana 4/4 doesn't shore up the defense well enough to give that much time.
It gives flying and trample - even your 2/2s are likely dinging them for 2, let alone any ETB value or any synergies with sac outlets. I'm also not sure why the possibility of running out before they die is particularly relevant. Is this the only card you're playing? Is it not worth it if it does 4 or 5 damage while maybe giving you an ETB effect or some lifegain or removing something small of theirs)? A 6 mana 4/4 does plenty to slow down attacks. Again, it's certainly not a bomb, but since when does a solid, value card need to be able to take you back from the brink when facing down so much that a 4/4 doesn't even phase them to be good? At 6+ mana, especially since the ability is optional, the 3 mana investment isn't slowing you down at all unless you're in a position for it to happen. It's not like it has an upkeep cost of 3.
That's an absurd over-generalization that doesn't even vaguely consider a middle ground. A 6/5 with that ability would be an incredibly good card. A 4/4 with a game ending ability would be an incredibly good card. This is a fine card. It's a body that can block the vast majority of creatures your opponent is likely to have, even if not their best card. It's an ability that can range anywhere from decent to very good with enough ETB effects, synergies or sac outlets.
Have either of you even played with it? Without some decent experience with it, I'm going to go out on a very sturdy limb and stick with the opinion of players who are better than any of us.
Have either of you even played with it? Without some decent experience with it, I'm going to go out on a very sturdy limb and stick with the opinion of players who are better than any of us.
It's a sad fact that cards I don't consider playable rarely make the cut in my decks.
LOL at the appeal to authority. Do you have any links?
Have either of you even played with it? Without some decent experience with it, I'm going to go out on a very sturdy limb and stick with the opinion of players who are better than any of us.
It's a sad fact that cards I don't consider playable rarely make the cut in my decks.
LOL at the appeal to authority. Do you have any links?
You act like appealing to authority is a problem. In lieu of any evidence whatsoever, I'm either arguing from authority (the authority of some of the best players in the world) or from mine. They're far more likely to be correct than either of us, unless you know something about the format they do not. I'm not dismissing any evidence you've provided. I'm not guaranteeing they're correct just because they said so, just that they're more likely to be correct than random, no-name MTGS posters like us. That's why they're professionals. Certainly not infallible, but far more likely to be right than us.
It's impossible to just plain prove that cards are good or bad, especially relatively unique ones. We can by experience or just by gut feeling card evaluation. Given that you have no actual argument, since you have never touched the card, what else are you basing it on? You can just list something's stats, say that's bad and then come to the conclusion that any card ever printed is bad. Dark Confidant deals a ton of damage to you, is only a ten turn clock, dies to tokens and mana elves in combat and gets killed by basically any removal spell, sometimes for even less than a card. It's unplayable. See? I just ignore the strengths, list random weaknesses without giving them any context and conclude it's bad. LSV gave it a 3 in his set review (playing with it as much as you have). Conley Woods gave it a 3.5/4 for draft/sealed. They're better than me. They're better than you. Their opinion is worth vastly more than ours. They could certainly be wrong, but given that you haven't played with the card, you have no basis to make that claim now and it's certainly not going to drop from a 3.5/4 to a 1 or a 0.
I also never even vaguely suggested that he should have taken it when given the chance. You continue to act like I'm calling it a tier 1, first pick, windmill slam bomb. It's a very playable card that will absolutely win you some games you wouldn't have won with one of the dragons or a random big beater at 6 (although certainly won't win you some that they might have - at least a dragon). It's not even remotely unplayable, it's a solid card that will do work in a Sultai deck, nothing more, nothing less.
Have either of you even played with it? Without some decent experience with it, I'm going to go out on a very sturdy limb and stick with the opinion of players who are better than any of us.
I don't think I've cast it, but I've played against it more than once. Invariably, the player reanimates something and attacks with it, and I shrug, take 2, and go to 18. An eventual bonus lava axe doesn't really mean anything in a control deck.
You wouldn't play Lava Axe for one more mana with a 4/4 body attached? That's card advantage and a discounted price - I certainly would, not that it's necessarily going to do 5 (or is limited to 5 - you're Sultai, get things in your graveyard and Delve the weaker things). It looks a lot like Rage Thrower to me, which was a very solid card that was easier to cast but had a much weaker body. It's also exceptionally disingenuous to suggest that all the ability will get you is a bit of damage. Your Sultai decks have no ETB effects? No sac outlets? Nothing like Orc Sureshot? Nothing with lifelink?
Sorry, but "my opponent, whose skill and deck quality are pretty much complete unknowns didn't accomplish much with it in one game" is hardly an indictment of a card.
You wouldn't play Lava Axe for one more mana with a 4/4 body attached? That's card advantage and a discounted price - I certainly would, not that it's necessarily going to do 5 (or is limited to 5 - you're Sultai, get things in your graveyard and Delve the weaker things). It looks a lot like Rage Thrower to me, which was a very solid card that was easier to cast but had a much weaker body. It's also exceptionally disingenuous to suggest that all the ability will get you is a bit of damage. Your Sultai decks have no ETB effects? No sac outlets? Nothing like Orc Sureshot? Nothing with lifelink?
It's not one more mana, it's 1 + 3X more mana, where X might be a lot. And it's not card advantage, Lava Axe style cards are inherent card disadvantage. Look, if the card was mono-red, it would be significantly better. I didn't play in that block, but Rage Thrower seems fine as a finisher in an aggressive red deck. But I definitely wouldn't play it in a control deck.
Sure, if you have a bunch of cards to combo off with, the Lich Lord does get better, but there aren't that many. At least there weren't in Khans, basically just Kheru Bloodsucker and Sultai Soothsayer in color, both uncommons (and the upside with the bloodsucker even is marginal). I suppose FRF does give a few more, but the randomness makes it difficult to get exactly the card you want.
Sorry, but "my opponent, whose skill and deck quality are pretty much complete unknowns didn't accomplish much with it in one game" is hardly an indictment of a card.
It wasn't once, multiple games against multiple opponents. My skill and deck quality are also indeterminate, I doubt you would give my anecdotes any more credit if I was the one playing it. If you haven't played with it yourself, please do give it a try, but I think you will find it's quite unexciting. It just doesn't do much that Sultai wants to be doing.
Would an unblockable creature that can't block be card disadvantage? You're drawing an arbitrary distinction entirely because it doesn't put a permanent on the board. The extra mana investment is true, I didn't really mention that, but it's mana that is very frequently going to be wasted at turn 7+ and is an option. Its drawback is more that you may not use it every turn that you might maybe want to more than that it costs mana. You always have the choice and you get a legitimately decent body while you're at it (merl can say it's awful all he wants, but I'd venture a guess that the vast majority of turn 6 board states in FKK games have nothing that it can't block freely or trade with, even if it's not the biggest thing on the board).
Using the graveyard to your advantage, comboing off of sac effects and ETB triggers and slowly, safely knocking away at their health without using cards to do it isn't what Sultai wants to be doing? That's news to me, a few professionals and the dev team at WOTC.
Doesn't seem to be much use in arguing it further, though. You have limited experience playing against it and none with it. I have limited experience playing with it. Your gut tells you it's bad, mine tells me it's fine. Some pros think it's okay, some pros think it's bad, some pros think it's an auto-include in any Sultai deck.
kheru lich lord and jeskai infiltrator are the opposite of a nonbo, they're a combo! You do realize the lich lord gives the creature flying and trample right? so you attack with infiltrator, if they can't block a flyer, you exile jeskai infiltrator and the top card of your library and return them manifested. If they can't block a flyer you permanently keep the infiltrator, and the other manifest!
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[spoiler]Event #: 7974784
Time: 2/11/2015 3:17:58 PM
Players:
Shinryuu
toxicfrog
lim1017
SUZUKUMA
--> comeonandgetintheboatfishfish
SoMuchLuck514
Faythae
kartheunlucky
------ FRF ------
Pack 1 pick 1:
Hooded Assassin
Abzan Skycaptain
Enhanced Awareness
Typhoid Rats
Grim Contest
Dragon Bell Monk
Great-Horn Krushok
Goblin Heelcutter
Ambush Krotiq
Gore Swine
Mistfire Adept
Noxious Dragon
Lightform
--> Jeskai Infiltrator
Jungle Hollow
Okay, a bomb rare in FRF, big surprise. And yes, it really is a bomb for anyone who disagrees. Also of note is Heelcutter, and as a distant third, Lightform.
Pack 1 pick 2:
Harsh Sustenance
Pressure Point
Whisk Away
Sultai Emissary
Jeskai Runemark
Sandblast
Map the Wastes
Lightning Shrieker
Ainok Guide
Sandsteppe Outcast
--> Abzan Beastmaster
Ugin's Construct
Sage's Reverie
Thornwood Falls
Nice to pick up a Beastmaster 2nd pick. I think it's usually incorrect to pass this despite the bomby nature of FRF rares, so my neighbor must have gotten something good. Something hopefully not green. This makes me want to play UG, but here's the thing: I HATE the UG deck, and hardly ever go for it. This is going to be one of my first attempts at it in a long time.
Pack 1 pick 3:
Typhoid Rats
--> Ethereal Ambush
Enhanced Awareness
Gurmag Angler
Return to the Earth
Mardu Scout
Archers of Qarsi
Fierce Invocation
Feral Krushok
Qarsi High Priest
Cached Defenses
Crucible of the Spirit Dragon
Scoured Barrens
I guess this seals it. The next best card is Typhoid Rats, and I don't think you go into black on the basis of Rats, do you? Are they a high enough pick to justify that, if I'm already probably UG?
Pack 1 pick 4:
Ancestral Vengeance
War Flare
Soul Summons
Sultai Skullkeeper
Reach of Shadows
Harsh Sustenance
Collateral Damage
Temur Runemark
--> Write into Being
Rite of Undoing
Diplomacy of the Wastes
Swiftwater Cliffs
There's a Reach of Shadows, and the whole Sultai thing is calling, but the biggest thing I remember about this deck is that it never has enough creatures. Is this a terrible pick? There's also a Rite of Undoing, but I don't feel like it matches up very well with what I have so far.
Pack 1 pick 5:
Ancestral Vengeance
War Flare
Soul Summons
Sultai Skullkeeper
Collateral Damage
Temur Runemark
--> Write into Being
Renowned Weaponsmith
Sibsig Muckdraggers
Vaultbreaker
Dismal Backwater
Basically the same pick as before, without the cause for debate. I note the Backwater and am sad it isn't likely to table, but at this point Temur is still possible. I haven't committed to much of anything besides blue.
Pack 1 pick 6:
--> Jeskai Sage
Sibsig Host
Arashin Cleric
Smoldering Efreet
Mardu Runemark
Formless Nurturing
Tasigur's Cruelty
Temur Battle Rage
Grave Strength
Rugged Highlands
Don't think there's anything hard about this.
Pack 1 pick 7:
Rakshasa's Disdain
Abzan Advantage
Sultai Runemark
Abzan Runemark
Alesha's Vanguard
Defiant Ogre
Cached Defenses
Sage's Reverie
--> Dismal Backwater
Speculative, based on the black I've seen so far. Not much else to take anyway.
Pack 1 pick 8:
Pressure Point
--> Whisk Away
Sandblast
Map the Wastes
Ainok Guide
Renowned Weaponsmith
Winds of Qal Sisma
Hewed Stone Retainers
Seems late, happy to pick up good removal. (All-star in the deck, as it turned out.)
Pack 1 pick 9:
Hooded Assassin
Grim Contest
Dragon Bell Monk
Great-Horn Krushok
Ambush Krotiq
Gore Swine
--> Jungle Hollow
I didn't take the Contest here, not sure if that's right or not. It's a good card, don't get me wrong, and it fits the sort of deck I'm thinking about and has synergy with Beastmaster. I just really like lands over speculative picks, even if I'm really really likely to play them. I dunno. How wrong am I here?
Pack 1 pick 10:
Pressure Point
Map the Wastes
Lightning Shrieker
Ainok Guide
Sage's Reverie
--> Thornwood Falls
This is easy. If I was Abzan I might consider the Guide just for Outlast combo-ness over an on-color dual, but it seems pretty bad in Sultai.
Pack 1 pick 11:
--> Enhanced Awareness
Archers of Qarsi
Feral Krushok
Cached Defenses
Crucible of the Spirit Dragon
Well, this was my third choice from this pack, so I guess I'll take it? (I note it ended up as the last cut from my maindeck and I never wanted to side it in, so maybe I overvalue it in this type of deck?)
Pack 1 pick 12:
Ancestral Vengeance
War Flare
--> Sultai Skullkeeper
Temur Runemark
Skullkeeper could make the main if end up drafting a few good Delve cards I want to keep in. Also a relevant sideboard card against faster decks, maybe? I brought it in once for that reason.
Pack 1 pick 13:
Ancestral Vengeance
--> Temur Runemark
Renowned Weaponsmith
I have two black duals, but I think I'm not going to end up base black here, and Vengeance seems awful in that scenario. Weaponsmith is a joke. Runemark is high variance but at least it's a strong tempo play. (I ended up siding it in twice and it did good work both matches. I wouldn't take it earlier than this though.)
Pack 1 pick 14:
Sibsig Host
--> Mardu Runemark
This is 90% a mispick I think. I don't mind hating an aggro card over something I'm definitely not going to play, but 1) no one plays this main (although I would probably be sad if they did), and 2) Host is actually a reasonable sideboard card against the sorts of decks that would consider running it.
Pack 1 pick 15:
--> Sultai Runemark
Ironically, I sided this in, too. Not as good as the green one, but I still got valuable tempo out of it that saved a game I probably would have otherwise lost.
------ KTK ------
Pack 2 pick 1:
Alabaster Kirin
Tormenting Voice
Naturalize
War Behemoth
Sidisi's Pet
Glacial Stalker
--> Thornwood Falls
Ponyback Brigade
Jeskai Banner
Weave Fate
Chief of the Edge
Abzan Battle Priest
Highspire Mantis
Kheru Lich Lord
Forest
I have nothing much to reanimate. Infiltrator is a nonbo with Lich Lord since it can never be unblockable that way, and it'll just be a vanilla 2/3. And the card just isn't that great anyway. That said, Glacial Stalker might have been right? I keep undervaluing boring creatures, which is what this deck is all about. But blah, first pick Stalker is just ugh...
Pack 2 pick 2:
Salt Road Patrol
Canyon Lurkers
Alpine Grizzly
Unyielding Krumar
Sultai Banner
Firehoof Cavalry
Arrow Storm
Kin-Tree Warden
Disdainful Stroke
Sultai Scavenger
--> Opulent Palace
Seek the Horizon
Mindswipe
Mountain
Yes I have an unhealthy love for mana fixing, but what else am I going to take in this pack? Alpine Grizzly? Arrow Storm? Scavenger? None of those compete with a triland, right?
Pack 2 pick 3:
Trumpet Blast
--> Hooting Mandrills
Dismal Backwater
Mardu Hateblade
Valley Dasher
Dragonscale Boon
Tranquil Cove
Dutiful Return
Disdainful Stroke
Dragon Grip
Monastery Swiftspear
Temur Ascendancy
Forest
I consider the Ascendancy, and I like Dragonscale Boon too, but I don't have any Delve yet and this is a good one.
Pack 2 pick 4:
Erase
Tormenting Voice
Swiftwater Cliffs
--> Jeskai Windscout
Disowned Ancestor
Rush of Battle
Bloodfire Mentor
Highland Game
Taigam's Scheming
Dutiful Return
Abzan Charm
Swamp
Easy pick, nothing else in the pack.
Pack 2 pick 5:
Smoke Teller
Ainok Tracker
Naturalize
Force Away
Rakshasa's Secret
Temur Banner
--> Abomination of Gudul
Stubborn Denial
Dragon's Eye Savants
Ride Down
Forest
Easy pick.
Pack 2 pick 6:
Act of Treason
Tusked Colossodon
Sage-Eye Harrier
Trumpet Blast
Scaldkin
--> Krumar Bond-Kin
Rite of the Serpent
Rugged Highlands
Temur Banner
Swamp
I'll take the gift.
Pack 2 pick 7:
Barrage of Boulders
Swift Kick
--> Crippling Chill
Rakshasa's Secret
Mardu Banner
Thornwood Falls
Venerable Lammasu
Quiet Contemplation
Plains
I debate Quiet Contemplation over this. Not sure which is better here. Chill is mostly for racing, QC is for a longer game, and I have no idea where I really fall on that scale at this point.
Pack 2 pick 8:
Longshot Squad
Defiant Strike
Act of Treason
Tusked Colossodon
Jeskai Banner
--> Weave Fate
Jeskai Charm
Swamp
I considered taking the Colossodon here, and in retrospect I think it would have been slightly better? I found myself wishing for a big creature more often than I found myself wishing for cards, but that may have mostly been because of the card quality of the third pack, which we'll get to.
Pack 2 pick 9:
Tormenting Voice
--> Naturalize
War Behemoth
Ponyback Brigade
Jeskai Banner
Weave Fate
Forest
I hate seeing cards like Ponyback Brigade go this late when I can't take them. Someone's getting a gift. I'm not taking a second Weave Fate, though, which makes me regret the last pick even more.
Pack 2 pick 10:
Salt Road Patrol
Sultai Banner
Kin-Tree Warden
--> Disdainful Stroke
Seek the Horizon
Mountain
I don't need the Banner, I took all the awesome fixing from before! I never sided this in, but I might have, and then I would have felt like a genius! More seriously, Warden was almost certainly the better sideboard card if that's what I wanted.
Pack 2 pick 11:
--> Trumpet Blast
Valley Dasher
Dutiful Return
Disdainful Stroke
Forest
Hate a card I hate. Why not.
Pack 2 pick 12:
--> Tormenting Voice
Taigam's Scheming
Dutiful Return
Swamp
Pack 2 pick 13:
Ainok Tracker
--> Temur Banner
Forest
Pack 2 pick 14:
--> Temur Banner
Swamp
Pack 2 pick 15:
--> Plains
------ KTK ------
Pack 3 pick 1:
Sagu Archer
Feat of Resistance
Shatter
Awaken the Bear
Force Away
Rakshasa's Secret
Throttle
Wind-Scarred Crag
Ponyback Brigade
Weave Fate
Abzan Charm
Watcher of the Roost
Monastery Swiftspear
--> Rakshasa Deathdealer
Plains
Not bad, not bad. It's better in Sultai than in Abzan, I think. Nothing competes, in any case.
Pack 3 pick 2:
Ainok Bond-Kin
Bloodfire Expert
Sagu Archer
Feat of Resistance
Force Away
Dutiful Return
Snowhorn Rider
Throttle
Blossoming Sands
Abzan Guide
Goblinslide
Tuskguard Captain
--> Thousand Winds
Mountain
Suuuuure.
Pack 3 pick 3:
Defiant Strike
Trumpet Blast
Lens of Clarity
Firehoof Cavalry
Bring Low
Highland Game
Scoured Barrens
Singing Bell Strike
Molting Snakeskin
Jeskai Charm
--> Pine Walker
Horde Ambusher
Island
Auto-draft mode *on*.
Pack 3 pick 4:
Salt Road Patrol
Alpine Grizzly
Dragonscale Boon
Bloodfell Caves
Wetland Sambar
Mardu Skullhunter
Rush of Battle
Singing Bell Strike
--> Debilitating Injury
Mardu Blazebringer
Dragon's Eye Savants
Swamp
I really want a Boon for the deck because it's nice versatility to have, but I can't pass Injury.
Pack 3 pick 5:
Erase
Tormenting Voice
Longshot Squad
Sage-Eye Harrier
Kheru Dreadmaw
Lens of Clarity
Snowhorn Rider
Brave the Sands
Despise
--> Sultai Charm
Island
Okay, I guess this is good karma for not taking everyone else's Charms earlier?
Pack 3 pick 6:
Mardu Warshrieker
Feed the Clan
Archers' Parapet
Tranquil Cove
Unyielding Krumar
Sultai Banner
Cancel
Windstorm
--> Sultai Ascendancy
Mountain
Definitely good karma. This is another card people underrate *so* badly. Best card in the deck.
Pack 3 pick 7:
War Behemoth
Swift Kick
--> Singing Bell Strike
Shambling Attendants
Weave Fate
Jeskai Banner
Gurmag Swiftwing
Take Up Arms
Forest
I go back and forth on this card. 7th pick seems high, but I could use the removal in the early game. I think if I had picked up a Kin-Tree Warden earlier, it would have filled that slot better, thinking about it now, but it didn't occur to me at the time. Turns out it did its job fine this time around, so I won't complain.
Pack 3 pick 8:
Erase
Tormenting Voice
Whirlwind Adept
Efreet Weaponmaster
Lens of Clarity
--> Cranial Archive
Witness of the Ages
Forest
It'd have to be a weird game for me to want to side this in, but I do have Sultai Ascendancy and a little insurance against grindy decks can't be a bad thing. Witness and Adept would probably not make the main and I can't imagine wanting to ever side them in.
Pack 3 pick 9:
Sagu Archer
Shatter
Rakshasa's Secret
--> Throttle
Ponyback Brigade
Weave Fate
Plains
Oh good, I've been thinking one of these would be nice. 9th pick in third pack is about as late as possible, so this was a bit of a lucksack to see this table.
Pack 3 pick 10:
Sagu Archer
Force Away
Dutiful Return
Goblinslide
--> Tuskguard Captain
Mountain
Meh. Wins the award for card most sided out. But I did main deck it in the first place, I guess, so I can't pooh pooh it too much.
Pack 3 pick 11:
--> Defiant Strike
Lens of Clarity
Firehoof Cavalry
Singing Bell Strike
Island
Random hate draft.
Pack 3 pick 12:
--> Wetland Sambar
Singing Bell Strike
Mardu Blazebringer
Swamp
I might play this. (I sided it in once, but never drew it.)
Pack 3 pick 13:
--> Kheru Dreadmaw
Lens of Clarity
Island
Pack 3 pick 14:
--> Feed the Clan
Mountain
Pack 3 pick 15:
--> Forest[/spoiler]
[spoiler=The deck]
1 Rakshasa Deathdealer
1 Jeskai Infiltrator
1 Jeskai Windscout
2 Write into Being
1 Abzan Beastmaster
1 Tuskguard Captain
1 Thousand Winds
1 Krumar Bond-Kin
1 Pine Walker
1 Abomination of Gudul
1 Hooting Mandrills
1 Ethereal Ambush
1 Crippling Chill
1 Whisk Away
1 Weave Fate
1 Debilitating Injury
1 Throttle
1 Sultai Ascendancy
1 Sultai Charm
4 Forest
5 Island
4 Swamp
1 Dismal Backwater
1 Opulent Palace
1 Jungle Hollow
2 Thornwood Falls
So I basically am mostly blue, with a totally awesome mana base. No way I can lose with a mana base this great, right?[/spoiler]
[spoiler=games]Match 1
Game 1: Opponent curves out Gurmag Swiftwing, Watcher of the Roost, Alabaster Kirin, and proceeds to try to race. I start with Jeskai Sage and Write into Being, and then Injury his Kirin so it's a 0/1, but I'm still a little bit behind. Turn 5 Ethereal Ambush helps with that. He's still trying to race and I find out why when he casts Harsh Sustenance to try to win, but I have Throttle for the save and he concedes.
I figure if he wants to race then I'll let him race and side in a couple of 2-drops instead of Ascendancy or Weave Fate.
Game 2: He starts with Typhoid Rats into Ainok Bon-Kin while I go Rakshasa Deathdealer into Jeskai Infiltrator. He tries to hold me off with the Rats while he Outlasts; I hit it with Crippling Chill to get past but he has Pressure Point to stop the Infiltrator anyway. Next turn he Despises me to find I have Ethereal Ambush and Whisk Away waiting for him and casts Soul Summons. On my turn I attack into his 4/3 first striker and manifest, he realizes he has no good blocks and just ragequits.[/spoiler]
Match 2
Game 1: I lead with Write into Being, then Sultai Ascendancy. Opponent has Alpine Grizzly into Sultai Flayer, with Bant colored lands? Guess he's 5-color. I try to catch up on the board with Ethereal Ambush and kill his Grizzly. He just casts Ainok Guide to fetch a Swamp. I'm feeling reasonably stable and flip up Tuskguard Captain from face-down mode to outlast it, but then he casts Armament Corps. I have Whisk Away in hand for the now 5/6 Flayer and Ascendancy shows me Throttle for the Corps, and I foolishly put it in my hand immediately, failing to realize I can't cast both. So I Whisk his 5/6 and take 4, and then he casts Kin-Tree Invocation to get a 4/4 for 2, followed by Hewed Stone Retainers. So I'm facing three 4/4s with a 3/4 and a manifested land. I get Thousand Winds and again foolishly put it in my hand instead of a land I could really use, even though I really want to cast Throttle and don't have the mana to use both again. So I cast Throttle and he responds with Abzan Charm and I lose horribly after playing horribly.
I side out the Tuskguard Captain and something else in favor of both on-color Runemarks on the basis that I need something to let my creature keep up with his if he gets going like that again. This may have been wrong.
Game 2: I keep a hand of 6 lands and Ascendancy, which is pretty much the perfect opener I think? Not that I do much correctly with it. I draw Hooting Mandrills and *could* lay it turn four by milling away a Throttle, but I decide I'd rather have the defensive spell because he's shown me so many 4/4s. This is so wrong. Never do that. Anyway, he's on nothing but Ainok Guide so I feel okay in laying a turn 4 Jeskai Windscout. He continues to have nothing and so instead of pushing my advantage with a big 4/4 I play Write into Being for value (and incidentally manifest Infiltrator. So sweet). He finally has a play, which is Armament Corps again, sigh. He comes in for three with his Guide and I'm not gonna block it with my sweet manifest of course. On my turn I get clever and attack into his Corps with my Windscout and manifest, and flip up Infiltrator to create two blockers, and then cast the Mandrills for 1 mana. Good right? Except the stupid Throttle I'd been saving, and gimping myself to get hold of, can't be cast with this line! So the Throttle sits dead in my hand as I watch my opponent Savage Punch my Mandrills and then play a 7/7 Kin-Tree Invocation. He attacks with his 3/3 Guide and 7/7 Corps, I double block the Guide with my two manifests and he gets lucky and kills the Infiltrator, leaving me with 6 land, a manifested land and a tapped Windscout, I'm at 7 life, with Throttle and Thousand Winds in hand, and he has a 7/7 token and a 5/5 Corps. Contrary to what the recording says, the Ainok Guide did not magically become a 12/12 right here; unfortunately, the recording got corrupted around this point and so I can't be super specific as to what happened from here. I recall chumping the token and Throttling the Corps next turn when he attacked, so things weren't completely hopeless, but what followed was an incredibly fun match where Ascendancy did serious work keeping me in the game at 1 life until I literally drew my whole deck, and ended up killing him on the last possible turn. It was great, even if I did get there by totally being awful.
Game 3: He got started first with Ainok Guide into Heir of the Wilds while I did the Sultai Ascendancy into Hooting Mandrills thing, correctly this time. He plays Cached Defenses to make his Guide a 4/4 and attacks with just his Heir for 3. I'm cool with that, take my turn, do nothing, and then Ambush his Heir next turn when he tries to do it again. Then Singing Bell Strike on his Guide and Sultai Runemark on my Mandrills put me way out ahead, until he Savage Punches on his turn to clear the board. It was a 3 for 2 for him, but I have Ascendancy and a clear board now, which basically means I win? A consecutive Pine Walker, Jeskai Windscout, Whisk Away, and Rakshasa Deathdealer confirms that to be true. On to match 3!
Match 3
Game 1: This game was crazy. He goes turn 2 Chief of the Edge, turn 3 Outcast, turn 4 Mardu Hordemate, all while I manage a morphed Krumar Bond-Kin and a Sultai Charm on the Outcast to stem the bleeding slightly. I had Ascendancy in hand but no way is that going to be useful in time right now. On his next attack I block his 2/1 warrior token and unmorph to kill it, and of course he has the Feat of Resistance to kill my only creature. My board is empty, and I'm at 16 life since he's been declining to attack with the Chief up to this point (although I'm sure it was a mistake at least on the last turn, since he obviously has Feat). Anyway, I topdeck Thousand Winds, but can only play a tapland this turn, so I have to play it face down and hope to draw a basic on my next turn I also play Singing Bell Strike on his 3/3 Hordemate before he plays Dragon Bell Monk attacks me down to 13, again declining to attack with his Chief. And so of course, I do draw a basic, and play it. I *really* want to blow him out this turn and take over the game, but he just attacks with his 1/1 flying token and plays a morph. What a letdown; I get the only guy in the world who plays around Thousand Winds when he's one turn away from winning. I don't flip because there's not much point: I have nothing else in my hand of note and I'm not stabilizing any other way here. On his turn he flips up a morph as Sage-Eye Harrier and baits my trick a bit harder with it also, for 4 total instead of 1. I shrug and bite the bullet and flip up the Winds to bounce his token, flier, and the Hordemate I tapped down earlier with SBS. On my turn I finally play Ascendancy and Hooting Mandrills (lucky topdeck ahoy) to hopefully stabilize at 13 life against his three creatures, and attack with Winds. But this dude is not even close to being out of gas. This whole time he's only played 4 lands and he's still got a full grip of cards. He plays Soul Summons and Typhoid Rats and attacks with everything; I block the Chief, finally, and go to 7. On my turn Ascendancy shows me Ambush so I attack with the Winds again to get him down to 10. He attacks with everything again and has another Feat of Resistance to push his Dragon Bell Monk through, so I take 5, killing his Rats and token and leaving him with the Monk and a manifest. I chose not to block with my other manifest because it was Jeskai Windscout and I was greedy. But of course he had Mardu Hordemate #2 to follow all this up. I set up Weave Fate into Throttle (and Write into Being) with Ascendancy to kill his Hordemate but I can't attack safely anymore, and I'm tapped out, so I leave all my guys behind. He replays his Harrier and passes, on my turn Ascendancy gives my Whisk Away (whew!) and I play Write to manifest Tuskguard Captain. I feel a bit safer since I have removal and can also flip up Windscout to block the flier if I need to, so I attack with Winds to get him to 5. On his turn he slams Rush of Battle but I trade away/chump everything and Whisk his Harrier Away and survive, leaving him with a manifest, and then he follows up with Gurmag Angler! This guy's deck is insane. I have never seen a limited deck capable of this much sustained pressure. Because of Rush of Battle, he's at 8 life and my only creature is Winds again, and I'm stuck at 2, so I can't attack, but I pick up Debilitating Injury off Ascendancy to kill his manifest and not just die. He plays Harrier for a third time (:p) and passes. I play Abzan Beastmaster; if he has any trick at all at this point I'm basically dead but I think I've about exhausted his resources because he just plays Soulflayer and passes. From there I'm drawing two cards a turn and Ascendancy means I get to pick what they are, and he can't keep up anymore and just loses to skybeats, but sheesh. That was a hard game.
Game 2: Not as good as the first, he misses an early land drop and I get an early Mandrills and his deck just folds. Kind of a shame, it was the only really bad game of the afternoon, but I guess game 1 made up for it.[spoiler]
Pack 2 pick 3: Dragonscale Boon over Hooting Mandrills (I always find better delve cards to run like Treasure Cruise)
Pack 2 pick 6: Rugged Highlands over Krumar Bond-Kin (again, fixing over mediocrity)
Pack 2 pick 8: Longshot Squad over Weave Fate over Tusked Colossodon
Pack 2 pick 9: Weave Fate over Naturalize (these two packs together mean you effectively chose Naturalize over Longshot Squad, and there's no way that's correct)
Pack 3 pick 5: Snowhorn Rider over Sultai Charm (the payoff for taking the red fixing)
Pack 3 pick 6: Archers' Parapet over Sultai Ascendancy (I think this card is pretty terrible in limited)
Pack 3 pick 7: Shambling Attendants over Singing Bell Strike (my one delve card)
I would have run Wetland Sambar and Sultai Skullkeeper over Singing Bell Strike and Sultai Ascendancy in your final list. Your deck looks sorta decent, but let's look at the number of evasion creatures you have: 3. Proactive 2-drops: 2. I think you could very easily fall behind to a normal draw form the opponent and even if they are slow, you could have a board stall with them chipping away with a flyer.
Yeah, I think that was incorrect. Outlast creatures are a pretty good way of stabilising vs 4/4s.
No, that seems terrible. You do nothing to affect the board on either turn 2 or 3, basically guaranteeing that you will be on the back foot the entire game. And you don't have any great stabilising bomb like Duneblast to catch you up (I guess thousand winds kinda counts).
Congrats on your win.
p1p9: Grim Contest over Jungle Hollow. Good removal, and particularly good in Sultai when you get the right cards.
p1p13: Ancestral Vengeance, though I'm not necessarily looking to play it.
p2p1: I would have taken Glacial Stalker over a land.
p2p8: Longshot over Weave Fate.
p3p7: Shambling Attendants. I've got two more removal spells than you have, and you have the Ascendancy at this point which makes this card pretty decent.
p3p10: Whaa? This never happens to me. That card is great.
I'm probably running Reach, Grim Contest, Glacial Stalker and Longshot Squad over Write into Being, Singing Bell Strike, Crippling Chill and Weave Fate in the starting deck. And I've got two less fixing lands than you ended up with.
Also, my experience with trying to use Outlast to stabilize has been generally poor. Outlast is more of a combo thing where you use up tempo advantage in the early game to turn small creatures into endgame threats. As a come-from-behind mechanic, it sucks pretty bad, since you have to play the creature, then keep it tapped for a turn or two, and all the while hope they don't just cast Crippling Chill or Throttle on the card you're investing a ton of mana and life into. When I'm losing a tempo game, I'd much rather play a Runemark and actually gain tempo. Sure, maybe they have the removal spell, but at least then I know that before I spend 3 turns setting up my saving grace. Potential card disadvantage is not inherently worse than guaranteed tempo disadvantage.
I do agree about outlast, though. I hate having to play outlast cards when behind. They're almost always mediocre in power/toughness at first, which means they don't help you for the turn they come into play or a turn or two later when they're tapped.
I agree with Merl about keeping the tuskguard captain in. Outlast is a little slow, but it gives you the +2/+2 for less mana and not an extra card. Runemarks are risky, and I wouldn't use them except when trying to push through extra damage in an aggro/tempo deck. Plus there aren't very many good targets for the runemarks anyway. A lot of your creatures will still trade for a 4/4 with a runemark on, particularly morphs and manifests.
Okay, I'll grant that there are plenty of situation where it's a terrible topdeck, but this format is nothing if not forgiving of low-immediate-impact 3-mana spells. Theros was a fast format and not a great comparison, and if you can get a few turns with it under your belt to sculpt your hand, Ascendancy is just a better looter that the opponent can't kill. I'd probably be a lot less high on the card if it were in FRF, but getting one late in a draft when you already know your colors and general strategy is truly ideal. This particular deck was functional in large part because of that one card.
This is probably true. I'm curious which particular picks you thought were bad, though?
Scrying is a good effect, but you're down a card when you play it, and WAY down on tempo as well. I just would rather have a creature every time.
It's alright, but generally I want my 2-drops to have 2 power without me needing to do anything special with them.
All good points. However, if your problem was facing down multiple 4/4 creatures (your justification for siding out the 2/3) then I think that is flawed logic.
I disagree. He may value it more highly than YOU do, but in my feedback I never suggested that he take a spell over hte land he took. I think all of his land picks were correct. If anything, he should have been more aggressive in taking lands.
P2P1 Kheru lich lord is a decent creature that can dominate in the late game, and again a great card for sultai. Take this over the land.
P2P2 Sultai scavenger over the land. Flying win conditions are good you know.
Kheru lich lord on the other hand I think is not only not a bomb, it's not decent. It's not even average. I put it roughly on a power level as Witness of the Ages (although maybe it's slightly worse than that because it can't be played before turn 6 and is colour intensive).
My picks probably would've been very close to Axelrod's. A P1P4 Reach of Shadows would've made me think Black was likely open (while red didn't seem open at all at that point). I think I would've taken a dual over Crippling Chill P2P7 and Kin-tree Warden over Disdainful Stroke P2P10 as well. I'm not sure that I would've ended up with a better deck, but that's probably what I would have done.
I honestly consider the ability to be quite bad. In an aggressive deck, it would be pretty decent, but there aren't any aggressive Sultai decks that I know of. It's hard to rely on the ability to finish the game because while technically repeatable, you'll often run out things to reanimate before getting the opponent to 0, unless you've already dealt significant damage. It's also fairly slow and mana intensive, and a 6 mana 4/4 doesn't shore up the defense well enough to give that much time.
A 6 mana 4/4 is terrible. It's much much much worse than Tusked Colossodon, a card which I also consider unplayable.
So really the only way this card is 'good' is if the ability on the card is amazingly strong. And it's just not.
Have either of you even played with it? Without some decent experience with it, I'm going to go out on a very sturdy limb and stick with the opinion of players who are better than any of us.
It's a sad fact that cards I don't consider playable rarely make the cut in my decks.
LOL at the appeal to authority. Do you have any links?
Here's Frank Karstens: http://www.channelfireball.com/articles/frank-analysis-a-pick-order-list-for-khans-of-tarkir-draft/
He has Kheru Lich Lord between Shambling Attendants and Sultai Banner. That seems about right. It's a loooooong way below an on-colour fixing land.
You act like appealing to authority is a problem. In lieu of any evidence whatsoever, I'm either arguing from authority (the authority of some of the best players in the world) or from mine. They're far more likely to be correct than either of us, unless you know something about the format they do not. I'm not dismissing any evidence you've provided. I'm not guaranteeing they're correct just because they said so, just that they're more likely to be correct than random, no-name MTGS posters like us. That's why they're professionals. Certainly not infallible, but far more likely to be right than us.
It's impossible to just plain prove that cards are good or bad, especially relatively unique ones. We can by experience or just by gut feeling card evaluation. Given that you have no actual argument, since you have never touched the card, what else are you basing it on? You can just list something's stats, say that's bad and then come to the conclusion that any card ever printed is bad. Dark Confidant deals a ton of damage to you, is only a ten turn clock, dies to tokens and mana elves in combat and gets killed by basically any removal spell, sometimes for even less than a card. It's unplayable. See? I just ignore the strengths, list random weaknesses without giving them any context and conclude it's bad. LSV gave it a 3 in his set review (playing with it as much as you have). Conley Woods gave it a 3.5/4 for draft/sealed. They're better than me. They're better than you. Their opinion is worth vastly more than ours. They could certainly be wrong, but given that you haven't played with the card, you have no basis to make that claim now and it's certainly not going to drop from a 3.5/4 to a 1 or a 0.
I also never even vaguely suggested that he should have taken it when given the chance. You continue to act like I'm calling it a tier 1, first pick, windmill slam bomb. It's a very playable card that will absolutely win you some games you wouldn't have won with one of the dragons or a random big beater at 6 (although certainly won't win you some that they might have - at least a dragon). It's not even remotely unplayable, it's a solid card that will do work in a Sultai deck, nothing more, nothing less.
I don't think I've cast it, but I've played against it more than once. Invariably, the player reanimates something and attacks with it, and I shrug, take 2, and go to 18. An eventual bonus lava axe doesn't really mean anything in a control deck.
Sorry, but "my opponent, whose skill and deck quality are pretty much complete unknowns didn't accomplish much with it in one game" is hardly an indictment of a card.
It's not one more mana, it's 1 + 3X more mana, where X might be a lot. And it's not card advantage, Lava Axe style cards are inherent card disadvantage. Look, if the card was mono-red, it would be significantly better. I didn't play in that block, but Rage Thrower seems fine as a finisher in an aggressive red deck. But I definitely wouldn't play it in a control deck.
Sure, if you have a bunch of cards to combo off with, the Lich Lord does get better, but there aren't that many. At least there weren't in Khans, basically just Kheru Bloodsucker and Sultai Soothsayer in color, both uncommons (and the upside with the bloodsucker even is marginal). I suppose FRF does give a few more, but the randomness makes it difficult to get exactly the card you want.
It wasn't once, multiple games against multiple opponents. My skill and deck quality are also indeterminate, I doubt you would give my anecdotes any more credit if I was the one playing it. If you haven't played with it yourself, please do give it a try, but I think you will find it's quite unexciting. It just doesn't do much that Sultai wants to be doing.
Using the graveyard to your advantage, comboing off of sac effects and ETB triggers and slowly, safely knocking away at their health without using cards to do it isn't what Sultai wants to be doing? That's news to me, a few professionals and the dev team at WOTC.
Doesn't seem to be much use in arguing it further, though. You have limited experience playing against it and none with it. I have limited experience playing with it. Your gut tells you it's bad, mine tells me it's fine. Some pros think it's okay, some pros think it's bad, some pros think it's an auto-include in any Sultai deck.
Seems reasonable.