Hello people! What do you think about this sealed pool? How would you build and play it?
I will post my decklist later. Unfortunately I went 1-5, so I'm trying to figure out: am I a bad deckbuilder/is this pool crap/am I just a crappy player?
I would certainly go sultai and make no additional splashes. Some of the non-sultai cards are great, but I don't think your mana would support them and you have some in color bombs anyway.
I find it much easier to construct my decks if I have the actual cards in my hand, so I appologise if I missed something obvious which should be included here. I think I would build my deck this way:
EDIT: if you would spash anything I guess red would be more resonable judging from your lands (you could have 3 red sources with only one mountain) - but your best red card mob rule is not splashable, the other two very good red cards are goblin heelcutter, which wouldn't really be that impressive in the above deck, and bathe in dragonfire, which I would understand if you wanted to splash, but in the end you are already OK with your black removal and I think the worse mana base isn't worth it in the end (though I might be wrong here)
I thank you for you reply.
I didn't get the chance to test all of possible combinations. But from my experience:
1. Silumgar is good, but it's not enough for us. I'd play Ojutai as well.
2. I didn't like any of the manifest cards. Morphs are just more reliable.
3. Ugin's Construct is a solid creature, but not here.
4. Sultai Skullkeper is an awful card. Even in sultai deck we don't need that much selfmill.
5. Jeskai Sage and Lotus Path Djinn didn't do well.
6. Hooded Assassin is more for aggro decks. Just like Orc Sureshot.
7. Still not sure about Rite of Undoing.
After more thinking about this pool my point is splashing white for Ojutai, Sandblast, Abzan Guide and Arashin Cleric.
I thank you for you reply.
I didn't get the chance to test all of possible combinations. But from my experience:
1. Silumgar is good, but it's not enough for us. I'd play Ojutai as well.
2. I didn't like any of the manifest cards. Morphs are just more reliable.
3. Ugin's Construct is a solid creature, but not here.
4. Sultai Skullkeper is an awful card. Even in sultai deck we don't need that much selfmill.
5. Jeskai Sage and Lotus Path Djinn didn't do well.
6. Hooded Assassin is more for aggro decks. Just like Orc Sureshot.
7. Still not sure about Rite of Undoing.
After more thinking about this pool my point is splashing white for Ojutai, Sandblast, Abzan Guide and Arashin Cleric.
I can understand that you want ojutai, but as I said I don0t think hte mana is good enough... even in the color combination where oyu have the most fixing (sultai) you don't have taht much of it. Though Ojutai is definetly impactfull...
Manifest cards are bad only in one situation - when you manifest a removal spell you really need - manifesting lands can often be better than drawing them (except very early, when you still need to hit your land drops), in the late game they are dead cards and by manifesting them you got rid of dead cards before your next draw step and you turned them into creatures (small creatures, but still better than nothing).
Ugins's construct is great even if you have to sac a 2 drop for it - once it hits the board most two drops won't do much anyway, while the construct, especially on turn 4, has the potential to take over the game. I played it in my own prerelease pool and it was often backbreaking for my opponent, getting 8+ damage in easily, or completely stopping aggressive deck, which couldn't profitably attack anymore.
The skullkeeper is a curve filler - you want something to do on turn 2, to disrupt aggro decks or to get some early advantage against slower decks + trading for their morphs/manifests/2-drops.
Lotus path djinn is a flier with a reasonable body, which is always playable (given that the white 2/3 vigilance flier is playable, the djinns are even more so) - at the prereleases were a bit more dragins around than in normal sealed tournaments/drafts, because we had so many FRF boosters. So it was certainly somwhat worse, but sometimes even a 1/1 flier can get some real amounts of damage in, because your opponent doesn't find his own fliers.
Jeskai sage is similar to the skullkeeper - something for the deck to do early and as another poster said in the late game better than many otehr 2 drops, because he'll at least replace himself.
Hooded assassin is FAR from an aggro card - with the counter it is a great early block, with the other mode you can get an addtional removal spell in, which can be crucial for any type of deck.
The Sureshot is closer ot an aggro card, but having removal added to a createur which can also do damage and trade with other creatures is huge, especially if you can blow the opponent out with ehereal ambush (2 creatures at instant speed!)
Rite of undoing can be GREAT - saving your own creature from removal, or reusing enter the battlefield trigger or returning an importantn spell you manifested back to your hand, so you can now use it ( + getting additional tempo by bouncing opponents stuff).
Well I don't agree with you. Hooded assassin is realy a 2/3 for 3, just like the captain. But he is actually unable to kill anyone in this deck. None of the manifest cards worked good for me. For 5 mana I need something beefy, and not my removal spell as a 2/2 creature. Sultai Skullkeeper on turn 2 milled me Silumagar and Rites of Undoing. Much worse than Wetland Sambar. Cloudshift is only good when hits creatures. Sureshot goes well with some token spells or something like that. There are not so many creatures with 1 toughness, and almost all of them are not impressive and can be dealt with in a much easier way. A flier is a flier, but still not impressive.
About the manabase. We have W/R gate and Ainok guide to search for plains.
Well I don't agree with you. Hooded assassin is realy a 2/3 for 3, just like the captain. But he is actually unable to kill anyone in this deck. None of the manifest cards worked good for me. For 5 mana I need something beefy, and not my removal spell as a 2/2 creature. Sultai Skullkeeper on turn 2 milled me Silumagar and Rites of Undoing. Much worse than Wetland Sambar. Cloudshift is only good when hits creatures. Sureshot goes well with some token spells or something like that. There are not so many creatures with 1 toughness, and almost all of them are not impressive and can be dealt with in a much easier way. A flier is a flier, but still not impressive.
About the manabase. We have W/R gate and Ainok guide to search for plains.
What are the odds that the skullkeeper mills your two important cards, vs. the odds that he mills something lees important and gets you two cards closer to your two cards? Yes, it will happen sometimes that you get unlucky with a mill and it will feel bad, but remember - not playing some cards because they milled your best cards in the past is result oriented thinking. The same is true for the thinking that the manifest card will certainly ht your removal spell - it is more likely that it'll hit a land and in most situation you will be happy to got rid of that land on the top of your deck when you cast the manifest spell with 5 mana.
Playing the guide as a 1/1 is a feel bad situation as well if you have enough land in your opening hand, but you have to use it to find your one plains - as a 1/1 it'll do nearly nothing adn the land goes on top of your deck, so you'll "loose" your next draw step (this is OKih if you need the land because you don't have enough lands, but if it is only for fixing it doesnt' seem like a good play at all).
I think we disagree on a lot of cards here Since I wouldn't want ot run an ainok guide, which is in my opinion a bad card (yes I think it is worse than the skullkeeper (he provides fuel for delve cards. Even with only one or two delve cards, the skullkeeper allows you to play them earlier even without having to trade creatures - mind though I don0t say the skullkeeper is good or a high draft pick, but I am convinced that you have to care a bit about your early plays even in sealed and most of the playables at 2 mana aren't very good cards), except if you are in dire need of any mana "fixing" and even then I'm not happy to run him)
I'm interested how our evaluations will change as the format moves forward and more information/experience becomes available
Well in case I need to get to my important cards so badly by turn 3, I'd better use Taigam's Scheming for that. On turn 5 it's really lame to have an ambush like that. Cloudform gives nothing to Soulflayer as a card, unless he is under the manifest, but it's too random for me. Manifest is good if you have something like Hooded Hydra or Master of the Pearls. I see a different deck and manifest just doesn't fit in it.
To the people that have a problem with manifest effectively 'milling' a card off their library that they wanted to draw instead, please read the milling thread. You are not alone in your views, there are many people who are afraid to mill themselves. Please read that thread.
I thank you for you reply.
I didn't get the chance to test all of possible combinations. But from my experience:
1. Silumgar is good, but it's not enough for us. I'd play Ojutai as well.
2. I didn't like any of the manifest cards. Morphs are just more reliable.
3. Ugin's Construct is a solid creature, but not here.
4. Sultai Skullkeper is an awful card. Even in sultai deck we don't need that much selfmill.
5. Jeskai Sage and Lotus Path Djinn didn't do well.
6. Hooded Assassin is more for aggro decks. Just like Orc Sureshot.
7. Still not sure about Rite of Undoing.
After more thinking about this pool my point is splashing white for Ojutai, Sandblast, Abzan Guide and Arashin Cleric.
Reading through the thread more fully, I think I disagree with every single point you are making here.
1. Splashing for Ojutai is really fringe given you have inadequate mana fixing to even run 3 colours.
2. Manifest cards are better than morphs since they are costed more aggressively (a 2/2 for 2, 3/3 for 4). Sure they are non-creatures mose of the time, but they still have the potential to blow someone out with an unmanifest.
3. It's solid here, particularly with manifest
4. A 2/1 for 2 is a solid card in your main colours, since you want to be able to not be tempo'd out when they curve out with a morph. Adding in the fact that you have delve cards and this is strictly better than Wetland Sambar (a card I would also play).
5. Flyers are great. And while the 1/1 is reasonably bad, it still cantrips so I would run it.
6. No, Hooded Assassin is primarily a 2/3 for 3, made to block their 2/2 all day. It's a defensive card, since if you're using it to kill a creature you get a 1/2 body, which basically isn't a card.
7. It's ok, but not a bomb.
I think I would build my deck this way:
I like your build, but I see some mistakes in it:
1. You need to be running both copies of Ethereal Ambush, not just one.
2. Hunt the Weak is reasonably good removal.
I think that the 4./4 with flash is just way better than the clunky equipment, and the other three all have rough parrallels with each other. I think my cards are slightly more consistent and powerful.
Making this deck:
I don't understand why you see this as an aggro deck. I've read the thread about milling. This is not the case where such milling is good, unless we play Dutiful return. You don't like playing Treasure Cruise? Most of the removal is fighting(2 of 3 is butt-fighting).
So even if we do stay pure Sultai without splash I see this deck as a control.
You don't like playing Treasure Cruise? Most of the removal is fighting(2 of 3 is butt-fighting).
I do like it. I like it a lot. But I like removal spells more. In my list the fringe 22nd card is Formless Nurturing. It might well be right to run Treasure Cruise over a random 3/3 for 4.
I will post my decklist later. Unfortunately I went 1-5, so I'm trying to figure out: am I a bad deckbuilder/is this pool crap/am I just a crappy player?
1 Wind-Scarred Crag
1 Thornwood Falls
1 Opulent Palace
1 Frontier Bivouac
1 Abomination of Gudul
1 Abzan Guide
1 Sultai Soothsayer
1 Ojutai, Soul of Winter
1 Silumgar, the Drifting Death
1 Cunning Strike
2 Grim Contest
1 War Flare
2 Ethereal Ambush
1 Wandering Champion
1 Abzan Runemark
1 Abzan Advantage
1 Arashin Cleric
1 Channel Harm
1 Dragon Bell Monk
1 Pressure Point
1 Sandblast
1 Sandsteppe Outcast
1 Soul Summons
1 Mardu Hateblade
1 Rush of Battle
1 Soulflayer
1 Orc Sureshot
1 Gurmag Angler
1 Hooded Assassin
1 Reach of Shadows
1 Sibsig Host
1 Sultai Runemark
2 Tasigur's Cruelty
1 Ruthless Ripper
2 Dutiful Return
1 Kheru Dreadmaw
1 Cloudform
1 Rite of Undoing
1 Shifting Loyalties
1 Jeskai Runemark
1 Jeskai Sage
1 Lotus Path Djinn
1 Refocus
1 Sultai Skullkeeper
1 Will of the Naga
1 Cancel
1 Glacial Stalker
1 Taigam's Scheming
1 Treasure Cruise
1 Wetland Sambar
1 Mob Rule
1 Hungering Yeti
1 Bathe in Dragonfire
1 Collateral Damage
1 Goblin Heelcutter
1 Gore Swine
1 Mardu Runemark
1 Smoldering Efreet
1 Temur Battle Rage
1 Summit Prowler
1 Trumpet Blast
1 Hero's Blade
1 Ugin's Construct
1 Sultai Banner
1 Mardu Banner
1 Frontier Siege
1 Arashin War Beast
1 Cached Defenses
1 Fruit of the First Tree
1 Ruthless Instincts
1 Ainok Guide
1 Ambush Krotiq
2 Formless Nurturing
1 Frontier Mastodon
1 Hunt the Weak
1 Return to the Earth
1 Trail of Mystery
1 Sultai Flayer
1 Tuskguard Captain
1 Dragonscale Boon
1 Kin-Tree Warden
I find it much easier to construct my decks if I have the actual cards in my hand, so I appologise if I missed something obvious which should be included here. I think I would build my deck this way:
1 Thornwood Falls
1 Opulent Palace
1 Frontier Bivouac
Creatures (including manifest spells):
1 Abomination of Gudul
1 Sultai Soothsayer
1 Silumgar, the Drifting Death
1 Ethereal Ambush
1 Soulflayer
1 Orc Sureshot
1 Hooded Assassin
1 Ruthless Ripper
1 Cloudform
1 Jeskai Sage
1 Lotus Path Djinn
1 Sultai Skullkeeper
1 Glacial Stalker
1 Ugin's Construct
1 Sultai Flayer
1 Tuskguard Captain
2 Grim Contest
1 Hero's Blade
1 Rite of Undoing
1 Shifting Loyalties
1 Reach of Shadows
EDIT: if you would spash anything I guess red would be more resonable judging from your lands (you could have 3 red sources with only one mountain) - but your best red card mob rule is not splashable, the other two very good red cards are goblin heelcutter, which wouldn't really be that impressive in the above deck, and bathe in dragonfire, which I would understand if you wanted to splash, but in the end you are already OK with your black removal and I think the worse mana base isn't worth it in the end (though I might be wrong here)
I didn't get the chance to test all of possible combinations. But from my experience:
1. Silumgar is good, but it's not enough for us. I'd play Ojutai as well.
2. I didn't like any of the manifest cards. Morphs are just more reliable.
3. Ugin's Construct is a solid creature, but not here.
4. Sultai Skullkeper is an awful card. Even in sultai deck we don't need that much selfmill.
5. Jeskai Sage and Lotus Path Djinn didn't do well.
6. Hooded Assassin is more for aggro decks. Just like Orc Sureshot.
7. Still not sure about Rite of Undoing.
After more thinking about this pool my point is splashing white for Ojutai, Sandblast, Abzan Guide and Arashin Cleric.
1 Thornwood Falls
1 Opulent Palace
1 Frontier Bivouac
1 Abomination of Gudul
1 Sultai Soothsayer
1 Silumgar, the Drifting Death
2 Grim Contest
2 Ethereal Ambush
1 Soulflayer
1 Orc Sureshot
1 Reach of Shadows
1 Ruthless Ripper
1 Cloudform
1 Rite of Undoing
1 Jeskai Sage
1 Lotus Path Djinn
1 Wetland Sambar
1 Ugin's Construct
1 Ainok Guide
1 Hunt the Weak
1 Sultai Flayer
1 Tuskguard Captain
1 Kin-Tree Warden
I can understand that you want ojutai, but as I said I don0t think hte mana is good enough... even in the color combination where oyu have the most fixing (sultai) you don't have taht much of it. Though Ojutai is definetly impactfull...
Manifest cards are bad only in one situation - when you manifest a removal spell you really need - manifesting lands can often be better than drawing them (except very early, when you still need to hit your land drops), in the late game they are dead cards and by manifesting them you got rid of dead cards before your next draw step and you turned them into creatures (small creatures, but still better than nothing).
Ugins's construct is great even if you have to sac a 2 drop for it - once it hits the board most two drops won't do much anyway, while the construct, especially on turn 4, has the potential to take over the game. I played it in my own prerelease pool and it was often backbreaking for my opponent, getting 8+ damage in easily, or completely stopping aggressive deck, which couldn't profitably attack anymore.
The skullkeeper is a curve filler - you want something to do on turn 2, to disrupt aggro decks or to get some early advantage against slower decks + trading for their morphs/manifests/2-drops.
Lotus path djinn is a flier with a reasonable body, which is always playable (given that the white 2/3 vigilance flier is playable, the djinns are even more so) - at the prereleases were a bit more dragins around than in normal sealed tournaments/drafts, because we had so many FRF boosters. So it was certainly somwhat worse, but sometimes even a 1/1 flier can get some real amounts of damage in, because your opponent doesn't find his own fliers.
Jeskai sage is similar to the skullkeeper - something for the deck to do early and as another poster said in the late game better than many otehr 2 drops, because he'll at least replace himself.
Hooded assassin is FAR from an aggro card - with the counter it is a great early block, with the other mode you can get an addtional removal spell in, which can be crucial for any type of deck.
The Sureshot is closer ot an aggro card, but having removal added to a createur which can also do damage and trade with other creatures is huge, especially if you can blow the opponent out with ehereal ambush (2 creatures at instant speed!)
Rite of undoing can be GREAT - saving your own creature from removal, or reusing enter the battlefield trigger or returning an importantn spell you manifested back to your hand, so you can now use it ( + getting additional tempo by bouncing opponents stuff).
About the manabase. We have W/R gate and Ainok guide to search for plains.
What are the odds that the skullkeeper mills your two important cards, vs. the odds that he mills something lees important and gets you two cards closer to your two cards? Yes, it will happen sometimes that you get unlucky with a mill and it will feel bad, but remember - not playing some cards because they milled your best cards in the past is result oriented thinking. The same is true for the thinking that the manifest card will certainly ht your removal spell - it is more likely that it'll hit a land and in most situation you will be happy to got rid of that land on the top of your deck when you cast the manifest spell with 5 mana.
Playing the guide as a 1/1 is a feel bad situation as well if you have enough land in your opening hand, but you have to use it to find your one plains - as a 1/1 it'll do nearly nothing adn the land goes on top of your deck, so you'll "loose" your next draw step (this is OKih if you need the land because you don't have enough lands, but if it is only for fixing it doesnt' seem like a good play at all).
I think we disagree on a lot of cards here
I'm interested how our evaluations will change as the format moves forward and more information/experience becomes available
Reading through the thread more fully, I think I disagree with every single point you are making here.
1. Splashing for Ojutai is really fringe given you have inadequate mana fixing to even run 3 colours.
2. Manifest cards are better than morphs since they are costed more aggressively (a 2/2 for 2, 3/3 for 4). Sure they are non-creatures mose of the time, but they still have the potential to blow someone out with an unmanifest.
3. It's solid here, particularly with manifest
4. A 2/1 for 2 is a solid card in your main colours, since you want to be able to not be tempo'd out when they curve out with a morph. Adding in the fact that you have delve cards and this is strictly better than Wetland Sambar (a card I would also play).
5. Flyers are great. And while the 1/1 is reasonably bad, it still cantrips so I would run it.
6. No, Hooded Assassin is primarily a 2/3 for 3, made to block their 2/2 all day. It's a defensive card, since if you're using it to kill a creature you get a 1/2 body, which basically isn't a card.
7. It's ok, but not a bomb.
I like your build, but I see some mistakes in it:
1. You need to be running both copies of Ethereal Ambush, not just one.
2. Hunt the Weak is reasonably good removal.
So looking over it, this is what I would do:
1 Ethereal Ambush (effectively a 4/4 with flash and upside for 5 mana)
1 Hunt the Weak (removal!)
1 Formless Nurturing (more consistent than Ugin I think)
1 Dragonscale Boon (pseudo removal, kills their guy and leaves a large creature)
1 Hero's Blade
1 Rite of Undoing
1 Ugin's Construct
1 Shifting Loyalties
I think that the 4./4 with flash is just way better than the clunky equipment, and the other three all have rough parrallels with each other. I think my cards are slightly more consistent and powerful.
Making this deck:
1 Jeskai Sage
1 Cloudform
1 Ruthless Ripper
1 Abomination of Gudul
1 Glacial Stalker
1 Tuskguard Captain
1 Formless Nurturing
1 Sultai Flayer
1 Orc Sureshot
1 Lotus Path Djinn
1 Sultai Soothsayer
2 Ethereal Ambush
1 Silumgar, the Drifting Death
1 Soulflayer
1 Hunt the Weak
1 Dragonscale Boon
1 Reach of Shadows
1 Thornwood Falls
1 Opulent Palace
1 Frontier Bivouac
4 Island
6 Swamp
5 Forest
U 7 - 3+4 sources
B 7 - 1+6 sources
G 10 - 3+5 sources
Curve
1
2 cc
3 ccccccss
4 cccccss
5 cccs
6 cc
So even if we do stay pure Sultai without splash I see this deck as a control.
I don't.
Soulflayer and other Delve cards all appreciate it.
I do like it. I like it a lot. But I like removal spells more. In my list the fringe 22nd card is Formless Nurturing. It might well be right to run Treasure Cruise over a random 3/3 for 4.
Sure. Isn't basically every sealed deck a slow midrange deck deck?
Thanks anyway.