Disclaimer: I don't expect much to occur here just yet. I'm just getting set up and trying to decide on a template for others. Also, see first point in Notes of Interest.
Purpose
This thread is to discuss WU strategies in Return to Ravnica Limited, with a greater emphasis on draft. Here we'll (eventually) be chattering about the good, the bad, the ugly, and in this case:
THE TEMPO.
Notes of Interest
This thread is a social experiment (for people to be social, not to Skinner Box all of you) by yours truly. I was neither bribed, coerced, or in any way made to do this by another individual; it is strictly a product of my boredom in waiting for Prerelease (and the daily card leaks spoilers/previews).
Card tags will not work until the set is fully in magiccards.info. I include them now because it'd be a pain to do so en masse later; i.e. - efficiency!
Lists will be updated as moar cardz come in. I'll be watching, or if I look like I'm getting lazy, holler. With any luck, I was not Eaten by Spiders or something with an Appetite for Brains.
The major goal is to come to a general consensus. For example, if we do the time warp again and go back to Rise of the Eldrazi, one of the threads I would theoretically have created would have been a Leveler one, and as I recall there was quite a bit of animated discussion there, but in the end the general viewpoint was something along the lines of "Yes please", as I recall, especially with respect to Halimar Wavewatch.
Guilded Cards
A 'guilded card' is one that has the guild watermark or should, in the event of a possible misprint in this regard, such as Hypervolt Grasp having the Gruul guildmark in place of the Izzet one.
Support Cards
These are noteworthy cards that will undoubtedly play very well with detain or general Azorius strategy. In other words, this list will be "cards to watch for". At the time of this writing/edit, this will undoubtedly involve evasive or disruptive/tempo creatures (e.g. Æther Adept falls into the latter category).
For general discussion purposes, stick to commons and uncommons. You won't always be getting on-color/on-theme rares and mythics in the typical run of a draft format.
And for obvious reasons, cards from other guilds are allowed. (For example, if there was an Overload card that was 'mass tap target creature', that certainly qualifies here.)
Lastly
Azorius is first because I self-identify with it the most, in case you were wondering. (There may have been some test manipulation involved as well. :halo:) Plus, you don't piss off the bureaucracy by ignoring them; they make your life hell, believe me.
Also, I tried using deck tags for the card lists, but that didn't go over very well; the parser was being dumb (or maybe needs an upgrade). I'm taking suggestions for a better way for presenting it.
I think one of the biggest points to raise about Detain is:
Will Return to Ravnica Limited have flicker or "beneficial bounce" (e.g. Peel from Reality) effects? That right there is going to make (more break?) detain on cards such as the Justiciar. Even one repetition from a card like that is not trivial.
I think one of the biggest points to raise about Detain is:
Will Return to Ravnica Limited have flicker or "beneficial bounce" (e.g. Peel from Reality) effects? That right there is going to make (more break?) detain on cards such as the Justiciar. Even one repetition from a card like that is not trivial.
I don't *think* we will see flicker effects seeing that it was one of the 'things' in AVR but I wouldn't be surprised to see more bounce effects (maybe not peel from reality, but who knows)
I think it's an interesting ability, as it likely will give you at least two ways to play the cards. Sometimes you'll be able to curve out and use the detainment as a tempo advantage, but there will surely be other games in which a turn 4 Justiciar would be much worse than using him later for a calculated fog effect while playing a more controlling game.
I do think it's a bit narrow, and certainly less overtly powerful than the Izzet's Overload ability, and I don't like that its primary use is on creatures. I have a feeling they're making RtR very interactive in comparison to recent limited environments, and while Detain is certainly interaction, it's limited to creatures, and most of what we've seen from the ability is on creatures. I prefer my interaction to be at instant speed, if possible.
With that said, Archon of the Triumvirate looks absolutely nuts to me. Sure, it's really expensive, but that guy essentially becomes a super Frost Titan if you untap with it. I'm not sure how you lose the game if your opponent doesn't very quickly remove this, and it dodges what looks to be the best common removal spell spoiled so far in Augur Spree.
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:dance:Fact or Fiction of the [Limited] Clan:dance:
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I like this idea for a thread. Hopefully we can have one for each guild to discuss its strategies.
Detain is a good flavorful ability for Azorius. It's like a combination of Arrest and Sleep (not the mass part, the part about tapping and not untapping next turn). The detained creature isn't literally tapped, but might as well be.
It seems much more valuable as a tempo play than as Fog, though I'm sure the Fog effect will be relevant in plenty of games. Detain is a blowout if you start fast. (Hey there Militant Dryad, just forget about that Green mana thing and hang with us.)
I'll throw out a theory that Azorius Charm will be underrated. It's almost instant speed Time Ebb, an effect that never looks great on paper but always plays well. It's Unsummon + denying your opponent a draw step. It's a good card. The other modes are not exciting at all but you're not paying extra for them. I'll gladly take instant Time Ebb / lifegain split card with cycling.
I'll throw out a theory that Azorius Charm will be underrated. It's almost instant speed Time Ebb, an effect that never looks great on paper but always plays well. It's Unsummon + denying your opponent a draw step. It's a good card. The other modes are not exciting at all but you're not paying extra for them. I'll gladly take instant Time Ebb / lifegain split card with cycling.
Sure the cycling ability is probably not going to be used very much but giving all of your creatures lifelink is bound to generate huge swings. I can see the lifelink ability of this card winning a lot of races in Limited.
Sure the cycling ability is probably not going to be used very much but giving all of your creatures lifelink is bound to generate huge swings. I can see the lifelink ability of this card winning a lot of races in Limited.
That mode is basically Heroes' Reunion which is not a card you play by itself, but it will be useful in certain situations as an option.
Those are my favorite kind of "charms" -- ones that have a relatively clear best mode, but two other modes that will be relevant maybe 5-10% of the time you draw it. Like if you're dead on the board and Time Ebb doesn't help you, but you still have outs, you'd be happy to cycle at instant speed.
Purpose
This thread is to discuss WU strategies in Return to Ravnica Limited, with a greater emphasis on draft. Here we'll (eventually) be chattering about the good, the bad, the ugly, and in this case:
THE TEMPO.
Notes of Interest
leaksspoilers/previews).Guilded Cards
A 'guilded card' is one that has the guild watermark or should, in the event of a possible misprint in this regard, such as Hypervolt Grasp having the Gruul guildmark in place of the Izzet one.
The Boss
Isperia, Supreme Judge
Creatures
Azorius Justiciar
Archon of the Triumvirate
Judge's Familiar
Lyef Skyknight
Non-Creatures
Azorius Charm
Supreme Verdict
Support Cards
These are noteworthy cards that will undoubtedly play very well with detain or general Azorius strategy. In other words, this list will be "cards to watch for". At the time of this writing/edit, this will undoubtedly involve evasive or disruptive/tempo creatures (e.g. Æther Adept falls into the latter category).
For general discussion purposes, stick to commons and uncommons. You won't always be getting on-color/on-theme rares and mythics in the typical run of a draft format.
And for obvious reasons, cards from other guilds are allowed. (For example, if there was an Overload card that was 'mass tap target creature', that certainly qualifies here.)
White
Fencing Ace
Blue
Lastly
Azorius is first because I self-identify with it the most, in case you were wondering. (There may have been some test manipulation involved as well. :halo:) Plus, you don't piss off the bureaucracy by ignoring them; they make your life hell, believe me.
Also, I tried using deck tags for the card lists, but that didn't go over very well; the parser was being dumb (or maybe needs an upgrade). I'm taking suggestions for a better way for presenting it.
Past Ruminations
Links are broken, will fix in near future.
- Kaladesh
- Zendikar
- Rise of the Eldrazi
- Alara Reborn
- Innistrad <- Personal Favorite
- Dark Ascension
- Avacyn Restored
- Theros
- Return to Ravnica
- Tarkir
For example,I am having trouble evaluating the Justicar.
Will Return to Ravnica Limited have flicker or "beneficial bounce" (e.g. Peel from Reality) effects? That right there is going to make (more break?) detain on cards such as the Justiciar. Even one repetition from a card like that is not trivial.
Past Ruminations
Links are broken, will fix in near future.
- Kaladesh
- Zendikar
- Rise of the Eldrazi
- Alara Reborn
- Innistrad <- Personal Favorite
- Dark Ascension
- Avacyn Restored
- Theros
- Return to Ravnica
- Tarkir
I don't *think* we will see flicker effects seeing that it was one of the 'things' in AVR but I wouldn't be surprised to see more bounce effects (maybe not peel from reality, but who knows)
I do think it's a bit narrow, and certainly less overtly powerful than the Izzet's Overload ability, and I don't like that its primary use is on creatures. I have a feeling they're making RtR very interactive in comparison to recent limited environments, and while Detain is certainly interaction, it's limited to creatures, and most of what we've seen from the ability is on creatures. I prefer my interaction to be at instant speed, if possible.
With that said, Archon of the Triumvirate looks absolutely nuts to me. Sure, it's really expensive, but that guy essentially becomes a super Frost Titan if you untap with it. I'm not sure how you lose the game if your opponent doesn't very quickly remove this, and it dodges what looks to be the best common removal spell spoiled so far in Augur Spree.
:dance:Fact or Fiction of the [Limited] Clan:dance:
Detain is a good flavorful ability for Azorius. It's like a combination of Arrest and Sleep (not the mass part, the part about tapping and not untapping next turn). The detained creature isn't literally tapped, but might as well be.
It seems much more valuable as a tempo play than as Fog, though I'm sure the Fog effect will be relevant in plenty of games. Detain is a blowout if you start fast. (Hey there Militant Dryad, just forget about that Green mana thing and hang with us.)
I'll throw out a theory that Azorius Charm will be underrated. It's almost instant speed Time Ebb, an effect that never looks great on paper but always plays well. It's Unsummon + denying your opponent a draw step. It's a good card. The other modes are not exciting at all but you're not paying extra for them. I'll gladly take instant Time Ebb / lifegain split card with cycling.
Sure the cycling ability is probably not going to be used very much but giving all of your creatures lifelink is bound to generate huge swings. I can see the lifelink ability of this card winning a lot of races in Limited.
That mode is basically Heroes' Reunion which is not a card you play by itself, but it will be useful in certain situations as an option.
Those are my favorite kind of "charms" -- ones that have a relatively clear best mode, but two other modes that will be relevant maybe 5-10% of the time you draw it. Like if you're dead on the board and Time Ebb doesn't help you, but you still have outs, you'd be happy to cycle at instant speed.
And UW Charm is nuts. NUTS. re: Stir the Pride Nice cost gap.
Then Pick WU at the PR, cause that's your playable promo card!
How you should approach every game of Magic.
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