Here's one I faced in a top 8 draft today. I first picked a Volcanic Geyser, then saw the following:
Arms Dealer vs. Searing Spear
I took Spear, but I'm not sure about it. Arms Dealer being able to kill Sentinel Spiders makes a pretty significant difference, and it makes cards like Rummaging Goblin, Goblin Arsonist, and Krenko's Command much better. I luckily ended up taking an Arms Dealer pick 4 of pack 3, but having 2 would've been sweet.
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I had a draft today, where I had a pick that I am still scratching my head over. It was a mid draft choice, and at that point I was solidly in a Rb aggro deck.
I think he's a fine middle of the road pick in the format. Trades with a lot of pesky green beef, and packs a punch if you get a nice curved start. Obviously excellent with Battle Jester out. Red aggro decks in this format probably won't run out of gas as fast as they did previously thanks to Wild Guess and Hatchling.
Assume at the time you have none of the above but do have some of the other staples.
Talrand's Invocation, Arctic Aven, Serra Angel, Oblivion Ring. I may be slightly undervaluing O-Ring but Invocation and Aven are so amazing that I'd snap them up. I'd have to think on the O-Ring vs Serra Angel choice and make the choice based heavily on my earlier picks.
You have no Archomancers on either pick, and a decent suite of instant/sorceries.
Archomancer vs Invocation.
I don't think any number of Invocations will stop me taking Invocation over Archaeomancer. I could have a deck that really wants Archaeomancer and still take more Invocations. Invocation is just much better tempo and consistency then the value and flexibility that Archaeomancer gives.
The second sentence of this post is the wrongest thing that's been posted in this thread.
Really? There's only one deck I've faced against which it's a sure thing, and that's WB Exalted. Sure, it's fantastic against that deck, but what other archetype of any sort has trouble with its creatures being shrunken by 1? Green's guys are too large generally. Blue has exactly one X/1 in Welkin Tern. Red doesn't really care if you kill its Rummaging Goblins, as it's mainly going to beat you with Bladetusk Boars, Fire Elementals, and the like while using burn for reach. Hell, even black doesn't mind it, even though it acts like a Divine Verdict against Giant Scorpions (for the record, I've seen it 1-for-1 Scorpions more than anything else in the 15 or so events I've played).
It's playable I guess, but I'm not convinced it's a card you really want in your main deck, and comparing it to Murder seems silly to me. I don't think Chandra's Fury is maindeck quality at this stage either, and I actually think it's a stronger card due to the fact that it adds reach. The -1/-1 might be better, but if you aren't killing X/1 guys outright with either of these spells, then you're playing them insanely reactively to try and find the perfect combat step in which your opponent allows you to maybe get a 2-for-1 with it.
I'm perfectly open to being wrong about this, mind you. I certainly think the Exalted deck is the real deal, and Cower is gangbusters in that matchup. I just haven't seen it do anything amazing against any other decks, and in a lot of those matches, it was essentially a dead card.
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I agree with Cower going into the sideboard. It's really not that good. I was playing a sealed last night and had overrated it and maindecked it. I think it tends to be an overrated card. The only time it wound up doing much for me was against a guy that had at least two Merfolk of the Pearl Trident in his deck. Against somebody with two MOPTs, you probably shouldn't need much help anyway
I agree with what Semantics says about it. Not enough super solid X/1s to justify a maindecking. As a combat trick, you'd expect it to do more, but thus far from what I've seen, it just doesn't do enough. It sits in your hand too often. Against exalted, it makes it a sad day for Aven Squire. If they've got some kind of white weenie stuff with Crusader of Odric and its engines like Captain's Call and Attended Knight it would also be an all-star.
As is, I see it as hosing one color fairly well, but that does not a maindeck make.
I'm perfectly open to being wrong about this, mind you. I certainly think the Exalted deck is the real deal, and Cower is gangbusters in that matchup. I just haven't seen it do anything amazing against any other decks, and in a lot of those matches, it was essentially a dead card.
Yeah, I don't know why I was trying to come off so snippy when you had my back in the other thread.
-1/-1 is significantly better in this format than 1 damage a la Chandra's Fury, and 2 mana is an absolute ton as well unless you're blue and also have Faerie Invaders to sit on. Cower outright kills Aven Squire, Welkin Tern, Rummaging Goblin, Servant of Nefarox, Mwonvuli Beast Tracker (unplayables count if people play them :p), turns off the 2 1-power deathtouchers, swings combat much more reliably than Public Execution, and allows you to play your Crippling Blights much more aggressively. I haven't actually seen a Murder vs. Cower pick yet, but I'm not just being a fanboy when I say that I will seriously consider taking Cower.
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Aven Squire vs. Essence Drain
Pacifism vs. Sphinx of Uthuun
slumbering dragon vs. knight of glory
serra angel vs. murder
are there any uncommons that you would take over staff of nin? (nighthawk, rancor, talrand's invocation)
1. Squire (I tend not to take unplayables very highly.)
2. Pacifism (Probably the closest pick. I even like blue better than white in this format, but Sphinx isn't normally where I want to be with my blue decks.)
3. Knight of Glory (Again with the unplayables.)
4. Murder (More of a color preference.)
5. Nope. Staff is essentially unbeatable. It's as good as Contagion Engine was in Scars block.
Out of the blackness and stench of the engulfing swamp emerged a shimmering figure. Only the splattered armor and ichor-stained sword hinted at the unfathomable evil the knight had just laid waste.
1. Squire (I tend not to take unplayables very highly.)
2. Pacifism (Probably the closest pick. I even like blue better than white in this format, but Sphinx isn't normally where I want to be with my blue decks.)
3. Knight of Glory (Again with the unplayables.)
4. Murder (More of a color preference.)
5. Nope. Staff is essentially unbeatable. It's as good as Contagion Engine was in Scars block.
1. Squire (I tend not to take unplayables very highly.)
2. Pacifism (Probably the closest pick. I even like blue better than white in this format, but Sphinx isn't normally where I want to be with my blue decks.)
3. Knight of Glory (Again with the unplayables.)
4. Murder (More of a color preference.)
Thanks for the reply. Your use of hyperbole (essence drain = "unplayable") makes me wary of taking your advice very seriously.
Do other posters have opinions on those?
For #2 could you elaborate? So you're saying you prefer to be aggressive with blue in this format? Why is that, specifically? (I can guess some of the reasons (exalted makes blocking a bad plan, the rings let aggro decks grind out the control decks instead of vice versa), but what else?)
For #4, what about:
--> Serra Angel vs. Pacifism <--
While in previous core sets Angel was usually the pick (over doom blade or pacifism), I feel like it's worse in this set for a couple reasons:
1. The vigilance matters less, because it can't shut down as many creatures on defense - between exalted and the rings, it's more likely that your opponent will have an attacker that can get through (either because its larger than the angel, or because you won't want to block it because you'd be trading down)
2. It doesn't dominate the air as much as it used to. In previous core sets it trumped Giant Spider, in M13 it trades (down, in terms of when you picked it) with Sentinel Spider and Deadly Recluse.
3. Evasion isn't quite as important as in previous core sets, because due to exalted board stalls are less common, so there's fewer games that go "the board stalls, but I'm hitting you with a big evasion creature, so I'm winning")
Maybe Angel is still the pick, but I do feel like it got worse this set.
Signalling is like farting: it's a natural thing that helps people avoid being where you are, and if you try to do it deliberately, things turn to crap fast.
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Any of them are justifiable, but I think Yeva is the better P1P1. Both are strong on their own, but Yeva makes a lot of green cards much, much better, whereas Invocation only really benefits from Archaeomancer and Talrand.
The problem I have with Yeva is that while she's great and indeed makes my green cards better, I don't like green as a main color all that much, and without her, I'm just playing a non-interactive deck. I actually think Invocation is just a stronger card, and it just wins games so easily, almost on its own.
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Interesting to read the replies - I was pretty certain people would slam Angelic Benediction. Why am I overestimating this card?
Because it doesn't do anything by itself and hurts your tempo. If it was on a body it would be a windmill slam. Sometimes tapping out 1 creature matters, but more often than not you need more than 1 tapped critter to get through.
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To settle a discussion between a few friends of mine on this issue, P1P1, assuming the other cards in the pack are non-factors for signaling/wheeling purposes:
Sands of Delirium vs. Welkin Tern
" vs. Searing Spear
vs. Sentinel Spider
vs. Pacifism
vs. Murder
vs. Oblivion Ring
vs. Serra Angel
vs. Vampire Nighthawk
vs. Talrand's Invocation
Signalling is like farting: it's a natural thing that helps people avoid being where you are, and if you try to do it deliberately, things turn to crap fast.
Quote from Hardened »
I hereby found the American Chapter of the Zealots of Semantics. All glory to The Curmudgeon.
To settle a discussion between a few friends of mine on this issue, P1P1, assuming the other cards in the pack are non-factors for signaling/wheeling purposes:
Sands of Delirium vs. Welkin Tern
" vs. Searing Spear
vs. Sentinel Spider
vs. Pacifism
vs. Murder
vs. Oblivion Ring
vs. Serra Angel
vs. Vampire Nighthawk
vs. Talrand's Invocation
I slam Oblivion Ring and Invocation easily.
Murder, Spear and Pacifism probably.
The creatures probably not, maybe Nighthawk or Serra.
I probably rate Sands higher than others here, since I have had numerous good experiences with it. Also, if I'm just doing a swiss or at my LGS, I like to take my rare P1P1 and try to build my draft around it, (unless I open Wit's End or some nonsense.)
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Here's one I faced in a top 8 draft today. I first picked a Volcanic Geyser, then saw the following:
Arms Dealer vs. Searing Spear
I took Spear, but I'm not sure about it. Arms Dealer being able to kill Sentinel Spiders makes a pretty significant difference, and it makes cards like Rummaging Goblin, Goblin Arsonist, and Krenko's Command much better. I luckily ended up taking an Arms Dealer pick 4 of pack 3, but having 2 would've been sweet.
:dance:Fact or Fiction of the [Limited] Clan:dance:
1. You have two Invocations, P2P1.
2. You have three Invocations, P3P1.
You have no Archomancers on either pick, and a decent suite of instant/sorceries.
Archomancer vs Invocation.
giant scorpion vs reckless brute?
I chose the scorpion, but later picked up a reckless ogre and then I ended up playing the ogre over the scorpion, but was it correct?
Edited quotes make people see things easier, but just in case...
You're doing it wrong! Scorp is control.
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I agree with that definition in general, but I guess I was wondering what people think of brute. Is it bad, good mediocre? Did I overvalue it?
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I think I would still take Invocation, unless my other spells are Murder or other forms of removal.
Assume at the time you have none of the above but do have some of the other staples.
Talrand's Invocation, Arctic Aven, Serra Angel, Oblivion Ring. I may be slightly undervaluing O-Ring but Invocation and Aven are so amazing that I'd snap them up. I'd have to think on the O-Ring vs Serra Angel choice and make the choice based heavily on my earlier picks.
I don't think any number of Invocations will stop me taking Invocation over Archaeomancer. I could have a deck that really wants Archaeomancer and still take more Invocations. Invocation is just much better tempo and consistency then the value and flexibility that Archaeomancer gives.
Talrand Invocation, Serra Angel, Oblivion Ring [if I have no other removal, I might take this over Talrand in Pack 3], and then Arctic Aven.
The second sentence of this post is the wrongest thing that's been posted in this thread.
Really? There's only one deck I've faced against which it's a sure thing, and that's WB Exalted. Sure, it's fantastic against that deck, but what other archetype of any sort has trouble with its creatures being shrunken by 1? Green's guys are too large generally. Blue has exactly one X/1 in Welkin Tern. Red doesn't really care if you kill its Rummaging Goblins, as it's mainly going to beat you with Bladetusk Boars, Fire Elementals, and the like while using burn for reach. Hell, even black doesn't mind it, even though it acts like a Divine Verdict against Giant Scorpions (for the record, I've seen it 1-for-1 Scorpions more than anything else in the 15 or so events I've played).
It's playable I guess, but I'm not convinced it's a card you really want in your main deck, and comparing it to Murder seems silly to me. I don't think Chandra's Fury is maindeck quality at this stage either, and I actually think it's a stronger card due to the fact that it adds reach. The -1/-1 might be better, but if you aren't killing X/1 guys outright with either of these spells, then you're playing them insanely reactively to try and find the perfect combat step in which your opponent allows you to maybe get a 2-for-1 with it.
I'm perfectly open to being wrong about this, mind you. I certainly think the Exalted deck is the real deal, and Cower is gangbusters in that matchup. I just haven't seen it do anything amazing against any other decks, and in a lot of those matches, it was essentially a dead card.
:dance:Fact or Fiction of the [Limited] Clan:dance:
I agree with what Semantics says about it. Not enough super solid X/1s to justify a maindecking. As a combat trick, you'd expect it to do more, but thus far from what I've seen, it just doesn't do enough. It sits in your hand too often. Against exalted, it makes it a sad day for Aven Squire. If they've got some kind of white weenie stuff with Crusader of Odric and its engines like Captain's Call and Attended Knight it would also be an all-star.
As is, I see it as hosing one color fairly well, but that does not a maindeck make.
Pacifism vs. Sphinx of Uthuun
slumbering dragon vs. knight of glory
serra angel vs. murder
are there any uncommons that you would take over staff of nin? (nighthawk, rancor, talrand's invocation)
Cower in Fear is an ok 23rd or a potentially amazing sideboard card.
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Yeah, I don't know why I was trying to come off so snippy when you had my back in the other thread.
-1/-1 is significantly better in this format than 1 damage a la Chandra's Fury, and 2 mana is an absolute ton as well unless you're blue and also have Faerie Invaders to sit on. Cower outright kills Aven Squire, Welkin Tern, Rummaging Goblin, Servant of Nefarox, Mwonvuli Beast Tracker (unplayables count if people play them :p), turns off the 2 1-power deathtouchers, swings combat much more reliably than Public Execution, and allows you to play your Crippling Blights much more aggressively. I haven't actually seen a Murder vs. Cower pick yet, but I'm not just being a fanboy when I say that I will seriously consider taking Cower.
1. Squire (I tend not to take unplayables very highly.)
2. Pacifism (Probably the closest pick. I even like blue better than white in this format, but Sphinx isn't normally where I want to be with my blue decks.)
3. Knight of Glory (Again with the unplayables.)
4. Murder (More of a color preference.)
5. Nope. Staff is essentially unbeatable. It's as good as Contagion Engine was in Scars block.
Murder vs Ring of Xanthid?
(You guys are aware that it says "Pick vs. pick" thread, right?)
Since when is Essence Drain unplayable?
Agree on Staff of Nin. That card is bananas.
Thanks for the reply. Your use of hyperbole (essence drain = "unplayable") makes me wary of taking your advice very seriously.
Do other posters have opinions on those?
For #2 could you elaborate? So you're saying you prefer to be aggressive with blue in this format? Why is that, specifically? (I can guess some of the reasons (exalted makes blocking a bad plan, the rings let aggro decks grind out the control decks instead of vice versa), but what else?)
For #4, what about:
--> Serra Angel vs. Pacifism <--
While in previous core sets Angel was usually the pick (over doom blade or pacifism), I feel like it's worse in this set for a couple reasons:
1. The vigilance matters less, because it can't shut down as many creatures on defense - between exalted and the rings, it's more likely that your opponent will have an attacker that can get through (either because its larger than the angel, or because you won't want to block it because you'd be trading down)
2. It doesn't dominate the air as much as it used to. In previous core sets it trumped Giant Spider, in M13 it trades (down, in terms of when you picked it) with Sentinel Spider and Deadly Recluse.
3. Evasion isn't quite as important as in previous core sets, because due to exalted board stalls are less common, so there's fewer games that go "the board stalls, but I'm hitting you with a big evasion creature, so I'm winning")
Maybe Angel is still the pick, but I do feel like it got worse this set.
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Yeva, Nature's Herald vs. Talrand's Invocation vs. Murder
I went Invocation, as I think it's absurd. Thoughts?
:dance:Fact or Fiction of the [Limited] Clan:dance:
The problem I have with Yeva is that while she's great and indeed makes my green cards better, I don't like green as a main color all that much, and without her, I'm just playing a non-interactive deck. I actually think Invocation is just a stronger card, and it just wins games so easily, almost on its own.
:dance:Fact or Fiction of the [Limited] Clan:dance:
Because it doesn't do anything by itself and hurts your tempo. If it was on a body it would be a windmill slam. Sometimes tapping out 1 creature matters, but more often than not you need more than 1 tapped critter to get through.
Sands of Delirium vs. Welkin Tern
" vs. Searing Spear
vs. Sentinel Spider
vs. Pacifism
vs. Murder
vs. Oblivion Ring
vs. Serra Angel
vs. Vampire Nighthawk
vs. Talrand's Invocation
:dance:Fact or Fiction of the [Limited] Clan:dance:
I slam Oblivion Ring and Invocation easily.
Murder, Spear and Pacifism probably.
The creatures probably not, maybe Nighthawk or Serra.
I probably rate Sands higher than others here, since I have had numerous good experiences with it. Also, if I'm just doing a swiss or at my LGS, I like to take my rare P1P1 and try to build my draft around it, (unless I open Wit's End or some nonsense.)