Primadox is definitely a limited card. Streamlined construction decks are too fast and removal heavy. But in limited removal can often not handle a 4/4 if they een want to use it on him.
Outside of green what are the best ETB creatures to use with him? And what color is best to pair him with? White seems to have the most common token producers and has access to lots of triggers from other creatures entering the battlefield.
I had the nuts in a draft tonight. Double Primadox + Thragtusk + Garruk's Packleader. Drawing 3 cards a turn, 5 life a turn and a 3/3 every turn. So good. If you get a Thragtusk you GET DAT PRIMADOX. I was in black as well and had double Ravenous Rats and Bloodhunter Bat but I only ever got to combo it with the one visionary until the last match of the night.
It's a very good card, 4/4 for 4 mana is above the curve for limited and pairing that with black's exalted took me all the way.
Spoiler Alert: It's overrated. Yes it does a lot of things, but none of those things are so good in a majority of situations that it adds up to a whole card that's worth playing. But read the discussion, it's interesting.
Because of this guy, I had an opponent searing spear ravenous rats. I laughed pretty hard before popping down an acidic slime next turn
That's fantastic.
I've definitely been underwhelmed by some of the lines of play available to me with Primadox.
I had attended knight with Primadox in a sealed, where I thought, "wow, sprout swarm." It wasn't impactful enough, from being moderately (but not hopelessly) behind. After doing it once or twice, I had to stop so that I could deal with my opponent's fliers.
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I'll be sad if people don't start calling The Chain Veil "Fleetwood Mac."
Just watched some Players Championship draft videos that were released this past week and noticed that the pros really didn't like this card and I can't figure out why. Thoughts?
Just watched some Players Championship draft videos that were released this past week and noticed that the pros really didn't like this card and I can't figure out why. Thoughts?
It really isn't that good. It really is "win more" most of the time. Sure, sometimes your opponent will have three pacifisms and you'll just wreck them, or you'll have thragtusk and go off or whatever. However, a lot of the time you're just paying upkeep on this guy. I've often switcheroo-ed my guy onto their side with this guy in play and it isn't pretty. They have to either return my guy to me, or bounce him...doesn't end well.
I've thought this card was overrated all along, and it's really been less than stellar in practice. It's probably best if it just slides into the deck you're drafting already and has some good value targets (acidic slime, for example). However, far too many people prioritize it too highly and then try and "build around" it. What ends up happening is that they have like bond beetle in their deck, and they just build a weak deck. The only card that makes green interesting early in a draft is rancor. I'm convinced yeva is actually just a vanilla creature, for example. I have yet to ever see her do anything of value. It's usually the most obvious telegraph in the world, even if it is a rare. "Guess I'll just pass the turn with all this mana open, because I don't have anything"
and has some good value targets (acidic slime, for example)
Although actually that's exactly the mistake I see everyone make. Slime is really expensive and doesn't do enough. My opponent wants to tap five mana per turn to veeery slooowly destroy my lands? Great! Unless I happen to have a seven drop in hand he'll be dead a long time before I care.
Well, that and mistaking Bond Beetle for a playable.
The key card is Elvish Visionary, because it's already done its work so if the opponent messes with the combo by killing it you're almost as happy as if it lives. Likewise Archaeomancer if you happen to be Blue (and if I have a Primadox I'm often going to want Blue because it doesn't play nicely with aggro).
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(I'm on on this site much anymore. If you want to get in touch it's probably best to email me: dom@heffalumps.org)
Forum Awards: Best Writer 2005, Best Limited Strategist 2005-2012
5CB PotM - June 2005, November 2005, February 2006, April 2008, May 2008, Feb 2009
MTGSalvation Articles: 1-20, plus guest appearance on MTGCast #86!
<Limited Clan>
I have to have enough incentive cards to take a Primadox, as much as I love him. If I don't have anything yet that works with him, I won't take him over most other cards.
That said, I had the Primadox/Thragtusk combo this past Saturday. Worked very well
Look at your hand, and now back to me. Now back at your hand. Sadly it isn't my hand, but if you shuffle better it could be. Where are you? You're at your LGS drawing the hand you could have had. What's in your hand? Back to me. I have already played two Herbal Poultices. Look at it again. Those poultices are now Tarmogoyfs. Anything is possible when you shuffle better. I'm on a Phelddagrif.
Standard: Naya Pod; Delver Pike (MTGO) Modern: Patriot Aggro EDH:Rafiq of the Many
It really isn't that good. It really is "win more" most of the time. Sure, sometimes your opponent will have three pacifisms and you'll just wreck them, or you'll have thragtusk and go off or whatever. However, a lot of the time you're just paying upkeep on this guy. I've often switcheroo-ed my guy onto their side with this guy in play and it isn't pretty. They have to either return my guy to me, or bounce him...doesn't end well.
I've thought this card was overrated all along, and it's really been less than stellar in practice. It's probably best if it just slides into the deck you're drafting already and has some good value targets (acidic slime, for example). However, far too many people prioritize it too highly and then try and "build around" it. What ends up happening is that they have like bond beetle in their deck, and they just build a weak deck. The only card that makes green interesting early in a draft is rancor. I'm convinced yeva is actually just a vanilla creature, for example. I have yet to ever see her do anything of value. It's usually the most obvious telegraph in the world, even if it is a rare. "Guess I'll just pass the turn with all this mana open, because I don't have anything"
I agree that it's nothing to build around but, if I recall correctly, it wheeled in P1 in a fairly weak pack (Show of Valor, Scroll Thief, Hellion Crucible, Centaur Courser, Trumpet Blast, Fog, Giant Scorpion, Reckless Brute, Arbor Elf, Vastwood Gorger, Merfolk of the Pearl Trident, Clock of Omens, and Blood Reckoning) when I don't see any cards that are obviously better than it (never played with Hellion Crucible, I imagine it is of a similar power level to the Primadox though). Yasooka takes Centaur Courser as the first pick.
There are perfectly playable cards that synergize well with the Primadox (Visionary, Rats, Archaeomancer - and Yeva's Forcemage would probably make the cut too) at the common slot and at worst it's a 4/4 (which is very rare in format) with an upkeep cost of a useless creature that probably wouldn't be attacking anyways. If you snatch up three good creatures throughout the draft with ETB effects, I find it hard to imagine a scenario where he won't just win the game with the card advantage (real or virtual) that he generates, if not dealt with. This bomby effect should warrant him as a mid-high pick, not as a card that wheels in a visibly weak pack. He's obviously worse in decks that want to ramp into Gorgers or Wurms to win but there are a good number of G/X decks don't want to do that, and since you're picking him up early, you might draft fewer subpar fatties (e.g. Gorgers) later on as win cons.
Edit: I don't think you can define it as a win-more card since it helps so much in even games by generating long-term advantage. It can even help when you're behind, in some scenarios, by being the biggest body on the table. Classifying it as a win-more seems unfair to me.
I agree that it's nothing to build around but, if I recall correctly, it wheeled in P1 in a fairly weak pack (Show of Valor, Scroll Thief, Hellion Crucible, Centaur Courser, Trumpet Blast, Fog, Giant Scorpion, Reckless Brute, Arbor Elf, Vastwood Gorger, Merfolk of the Pearl Trident, Clock of Omens, and Blood Reckoning) when I don't see any cards that are obviously better than it (never played with Hellion Crucible, I imagine it is of a similar power level to the Primadox though). Yasooka takes Centaur Courser as the first pick.
There are perfectly playable cards that synergize well with the Primadox (Visionary, Rats, Archaeomancer - and Yeva's Forcemage would probably make the cut too) at the common slot and at worst it's a 4/4 (which is very rare in format) with an upkeep cost of a useless creature that probably wouldn't be attacking anyways. If you snatch up three good creatures throughout the draft with ETB effects, I find it hard to imagine a scenario where he won't just win the game with the card advantage (real or virtual) that he generates, if not dealt with. This bomby effect should warrant him as a mid-high pick, not as a card that wheels in a visibly weak pack. He's obviously worse in decks that want to ramp into Gorgers or Wurms to win but there are a good number of G/X decks don't want to do that, and since you're picking him up early, you might draft fewer subpar fatties (e.g. Gorgers) later on as win cons.
Edit: I don't think you can define it as a win-more card since it helps so much in even games by generating long-term advantage. It can even help when you're behind, in some scenarios, by being the biggest body on the table. Classifying it as a win-more seems unfair to me.
There are a lot of things here I need to respond to, but it's kind of convoluted so work with me:
1) You can't base anything out of Yasooka's ideas. As much as he's an amazing player, he's really, really weird. He builds decks no one else does, and drafts like no one else does. Clearly, he's good enough that it's hard to reproach him, but you can't really take his actions as anything of a consensus of what most players think.
2) Your concept of "playables" that have synergy with this guy confuses me. Half the creatures you mention are mediocre on their own (forcemage, rats), while the other half are insane on their own (acidic slime, archeomancer). When you have a really good creature, you don't need to make it better. Casting archeomancer is often good enough; getting to cast it five times IS "win more" almost all the time. If you can devote 4-5 mana to casting the same creature over and over again, you're probably just winning anyways. If you have a really bad creature, it shouldn't be in your deck to begin with. You don't need to play rats or bond beetle to make this guy better, because it just makes your deck worse.
3) I think you overrate his ability to "be a 4/4" when you don't have any synergies with him. What does that even mean? aggro decks will just run their guys into him, and control decks will be fine with the fact that you're paying upkeep on a vanilla creature.
4) I think you drastically overrate his ability to "win games." I've certainly been on the winning end of, "oh, you're drawing two a turn with visionary? that's cool..trumpet blast for 20?" or "oh, you're drawing two a turn? that's cool, I'm casting archeomancer, divination, and switcheroo. Nice card advantage, bro."
The card is fine. It's not something you don't want in a deck, but it's highly overrated.
Outside of green what are the best ETB creatures to use with him? And what color is best to pair him with? White seems to have the most common token producers and has access to lots of triggers from other creatures entering the battlefield.
It's a very good card, 4/4 for 4 mana is above the curve for limited and pairing that with black's exalted took me all the way.
JAMMIT DIM! I'm a DOCTOR not a DECKBUILDER!
We thoroughly dissected Trading Post here: http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=435720
Spoiler Alert: It's overrated. Yes it does a lot of things, but none of those things are so good in a majority of situations that it adds up to a whole card that's worth playing. But read the discussion, it's interesting.
That's fantastic.
I've definitely been underwhelmed by some of the lines of play available to me with Primadox.
I had attended knight with Primadox in a sealed, where I thought, "wow, sprout swarm." It wasn't impactful enough, from being moderately (but not hopelessly) behind. After doing it once or twice, I had to stop so that I could deal with my opponent's fliers.
It really isn't that good. It really is "win more" most of the time. Sure, sometimes your opponent will have three pacifisms and you'll just wreck them, or you'll have thragtusk and go off or whatever. However, a lot of the time you're just paying upkeep on this guy. I've often switcheroo-ed my guy onto their side with this guy in play and it isn't pretty. They have to either return my guy to me, or bounce him...doesn't end well.
I've thought this card was overrated all along, and it's really been less than stellar in practice. It's probably best if it just slides into the deck you're drafting already and has some good value targets (acidic slime, for example). However, far too many people prioritize it too highly and then try and "build around" it. What ends up happening is that they have like bond beetle in their deck, and they just build a weak deck. The only card that makes green interesting early in a draft is rancor. I'm convinced yeva is actually just a vanilla creature, for example. I have yet to ever see her do anything of value. It's usually the most obvious telegraph in the world, even if it is a rare. "Guess I'll just pass the turn with all this mana open, because I don't have anything"
*DCI Rules Advisor*
Although actually that's exactly the mistake I see everyone make. Slime is really expensive and doesn't do enough. My opponent wants to tap five mana per turn to veeery slooowly destroy my lands? Great! Unless I happen to have a seven drop in hand he'll be dead a long time before I care.
Well, that and mistaking Bond Beetle for a playable.
The key card is Elvish Visionary, because it's already done its work so if the opponent messes with the combo by killing it you're almost as happy as if it lives. Likewise Archaeomancer if you happen to be Blue (and if I have a Primadox I'm often going to want Blue because it doesn't play nicely with aggro).
(I'm on on this site much anymore. If you want to get in touch it's probably best to email me: dom@heffalumps.org)
Forum Awards: Best Writer 2005, Best Limited Strategist 2005-2012
5CB PotM - June 2005, November 2005, February 2006, April 2008, May 2008, Feb 2009
MTGSalvation Articles: 1-20, plus guest appearance on MTGCast #86!
<Limited Clan>
I've also seen it with yeva forcemage, bond beetle, & elvish visionary.
Thragtusk is insane but it's hard to draft a thragtusk.
That said, I had the Primadox/Thragtusk combo this past Saturday. Worked very well
Standard: Naya Pod; Delver Pike (MTGO)
Modern: Patriot Aggro
EDH: Rafiq of the Many
I agree that it's nothing to build around but, if I recall correctly, it wheeled in P1 in a fairly weak pack (Show of Valor, Scroll Thief, Hellion Crucible, Centaur Courser, Trumpet Blast, Fog, Giant Scorpion, Reckless Brute, Arbor Elf, Vastwood Gorger, Merfolk of the Pearl Trident, Clock of Omens, and Blood Reckoning) when I don't see any cards that are obviously better than it (never played with Hellion Crucible, I imagine it is of a similar power level to the Primadox though). Yasooka takes Centaur Courser as the first pick.
There are perfectly playable cards that synergize well with the Primadox (Visionary, Rats, Archaeomancer - and Yeva's Forcemage would probably make the cut too) at the common slot and at worst it's a 4/4 (which is very rare in format) with an upkeep cost of a useless creature that probably wouldn't be attacking anyways. If you snatch up three good creatures throughout the draft with ETB effects, I find it hard to imagine a scenario where he won't just win the game with the card advantage (real or virtual) that he generates, if not dealt with. This bomby effect should warrant him as a mid-high pick, not as a card that wheels in a visibly weak pack. He's obviously worse in decks that want to ramp into Gorgers or Wurms to win but there are a good number of G/X decks don't want to do that, and since you're picking him up early, you might draft fewer subpar fatties (e.g. Gorgers) later on as win cons.
Edit: I don't think you can define it as a win-more card since it helps so much in even games by generating long-term advantage. It can even help when you're behind, in some scenarios, by being the biggest body on the table. Classifying it as a win-more seems unfair to me.
There are a lot of things here I need to respond to, but it's kind of convoluted so work with me:
1) You can't base anything out of Yasooka's ideas. As much as he's an amazing player, he's really, really weird. He builds decks no one else does, and drafts like no one else does. Clearly, he's good enough that it's hard to reproach him, but you can't really take his actions as anything of a consensus of what most players think.
2) Your concept of "playables" that have synergy with this guy confuses me. Half the creatures you mention are mediocre on their own (forcemage, rats), while the other half are insane on their own (acidic slime, archeomancer). When you have a really good creature, you don't need to make it better. Casting archeomancer is often good enough; getting to cast it five times IS "win more" almost all the time. If you can devote 4-5 mana to casting the same creature over and over again, you're probably just winning anyways. If you have a really bad creature, it shouldn't be in your deck to begin with. You don't need to play rats or bond beetle to make this guy better, because it just makes your deck worse.
3) I think you overrate his ability to "be a 4/4" when you don't have any synergies with him. What does that even mean? aggro decks will just run their guys into him, and control decks will be fine with the fact that you're paying upkeep on a vanilla creature.
4) I think you drastically overrate his ability to "win games." I've certainly been on the winning end of, "oh, you're drawing two a turn with visionary? that's cool..trumpet blast for 20?" or "oh, you're drawing two a turn? that's cool, I'm casting archeomancer, divination, and switcheroo. Nice card advantage, bro."
The card is fine. It's not something you don't want in a deck, but it's highly overrated.
*DCI Rules Advisor*