I've been drafting for about a year now, and have been constantly getting my face stomped in but having some fun along the way. Only recently have I had the urge to actually win, and so I've looked up some tips. I'm having trouble understanding BREAD, and have some questions.
1. Why are creature enchantments not often drafted? (EG: Dark Favor)
2. Is 17 lands generally considered the best amount for your average deck? (Taking into account mana excel and all that)
3. What is your average spell make up? (Creatures to instants, ect.)
4. How do you determine how many of each land to run?
5. What's your take on creatures with defender?
Also, it would be incredibly helpful if any of you could redirect me to sites where I could learn more!
1. The potential for card disadvantage is very high with Auras. If someone removes your creature with an enchantment on it, you're down 2 cards to their 1. That said, Auras aren't unplayable. I'll almost always play Dark Favor if I get it, and a number of others (Divine Favor, Tricks of the Trade) are playable as well.
2. Generally, 17 lands is correect. You can alter it to 16 or 18 depending on your average mana costs.
3. You want a lot of creatures, but ultimately I just play the best cards I got. 15 creatures is a decent goal.
4. I count up the total number of each mana symbol in my deck, then use some math to break that down into a ratio equalling 17 lands. For example, if you have 15 green mana symbols and 10 white mana symbols, that breaks down to a 3:2 ratio, which equals a 9:6 ratio. From that point, I'd probably just add 1 more of each and end up with 10 Forest and 7 Plains.
I've been drafting for about a year now, and have been constantly getting my face stomped in but having some fun along the way. Only recently have I had the urge to actually win, and so I've looked up some tips. I'm having trouble understanding BREAD, and have some questions.
B - Bombs
R - Removal
E - Evasion
AD - Something else that no one agrees on
1. Why are creature enchantments not often drafted? (EG: Dark Favor)
Aura's open you up to being 2-for-1'd That is, if the opponent kills your creature, you lose the creature and the enchantment. It's usually better just to have a second creature in play instead of an aura. A lot of aura's aren't that good either.
2. Is 17 lands generally considered the best amount for your average deck? (Taking into account mana excel and all that)
17 is a good starting point and a very common number of lands, but some decks do run better on 18 or 16 depending.
3. What is your average spell make up? (Creatures to instants, ect.)
I like around 14 to 18 creatures with 9 to 5 other spells. Usually the others are removal or combat tricks, but can be something else, too, like a Planeswalker or token generator.
4. How do you determine how many of each land to run?
Count how many cards of each color I'm running, then divide the lands in a similar ratio. I will adjust this number based on other factors, too.
5. What's your take on creatures with defender?
Generally bad, but very occasionally worth including. Really varies with the deck and format, but my general rule is to avoid them, unless they have a great secondary ability.
In addition to what KPDaly16 was saying, you can find your mana curve a bit more efficiently by busting out the calculator on your phone and counting out the mana symbols. Figure out the actual percentages for a more accurate route.
When building your deck, lay everything out according to mana cost. Curve is crucial.
1) aura's aren't bad in all limited enviroments but it takes skill and understanding of the enviroment to know when going for aura's is resonable. Since they open you for two for ones you typically skip them.
M13 for example though has several hexproff dorks that make aura's more playable. That and rancor as an aura doens't have quite the two for one disadvantage since they have to respond to cast. And mark of the vampire is strong enough to be worthwhile to just get one swing in with it also mitigating the affect of removal.
Understanding auras in limited is an advanced tactic and that is why it isn't typically recommended; knowing when to play auras is a decision that can only be made by someone with a strong grasp of the format ie someone who doesn't need limited advice in the first place.
2) yes it typically is with 16 being the low (running less opens you to all sort of problems) and 18 being possible if you are heavily bomb oriented. You can typically cut a land if you have 2.5 cheap mana sources. (I would count a mana dork as half a mana source since they can kill it if they see you are having mana issues)
3) This is another advance option, I have won drafts with 3 creatures in the deck. It is entirely up to the format, what you open, and how strong your answers are. Typically around 15 with 18 being better if you are strait aggro (ie you know you don't have the gas to win lategame) isn't a bad rule of thumb.
4)I'm probably not as good at this as I could be so I'll just say the other posters explanations on this seem good. I do typcically never run less than 6 sources of a non-splash color without fixing no matter how the numbers crunch.
5) Depends on the defender but if you know you have lategame picking up a couple of strong walls to make it there isn't bad. They are useless though if you are being the aggressor or you know your late game is weak.
You shouldn't be drafting on a formula in any sort of format. While something like that is great when you're learning to play, it'll leave you cold in areas where good players evaluate based on overall card quality and ability to synergize a deck versus just picking the next good card that comes your way.
What are some good sites for magic tips aside from daily mtg?
Once the set releases on Magic Online, reading the threads here is a pretty good way to learn. In particular the draftcaps subforum will have lots of draft walkthroughs in. Reading those is a good way to improve your drafting. (Especially if you question any pick that seems wrong to you.)
Next time you draft a deck that you expect to do well with but don't, keep the deck together and post a decklist here for comments. That should give you some useful tips about where you might be making mistakes.
Last but not least: don't rely too much on BREAD. It's a good way to simplify things for your first few drafts, but in reality it's a pretty terrible system.
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<Limited Clan>
Draftbetter.com was a site that I used a lot and learned a lot from the video's on there.
Sadly, Draftbetter.com is no longer with us due to its owner's retirement.
I would suggest the "Limited Resources" and "Simon Says" weekly videos on mtgoacademy.com, due to their clear and concise commentary during live drafts.
Limited Resources is one of, if not the best ways to get better at drafting (and magic in general). You can even search through the archives for the show on BREAD and how you should interpret it.
Many cards that give "advantage" are way, way better than evasive creatures. They're also seldom found at Common anyway, making the advice rather useless in terms of telling you what to pick from packs where all the best stuff is gone.
By far the most important thing anyone needs to know about BREAD is that by the time you're reading a thread discussing the finer points you should stop using it.
...the system is just so deeply flawed that it's a mystery to me why people continue to advocate it.
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<Limited Clan>
...the system is just so deeply flawed that it's a mystery to me why people continue to advocate it.
As you said, the BREAD system is incomplete and there are many exceptions, but it's not a bad system for less experienced players to start with. You have to learn the basics and baselines before you can understand the exceptions to that baseline.
The most important thing that BREAD teaches a new drafter is "Removal is good." If you've never played competitive Magic, you probably don't realize how important Removal is. The kitchen table Magic player focuses on creatures and big splashy spells. Only with trial and error do they realize, hey the games where I resolve Doom Blade seem to go pretty well. Basic removal just doesn't seem exciting when you're building a deck.
After that, BREAD is essentially useless. Most importantly, it's missing a big S for Synergy With The Cards You've Already Drafted.
As you said, the BREAD system is incomplete and there are many exceptions, but it's not a bad system for less experienced players to start with. You have to learn the basics and baselines before you can understand the exceptions to that baseline.
As you said, the BREAD system is incomplete and there are many exceptions, but it's not a bad system for less experienced players to start with.
Yes that's fair. I'm fine with it as a system for complete beginners. If you've done 0-3 drafts before (any format) then it's probably going to help you a little bit.
Although even then, just saying "removal is even more important than you think it is" probably covers all the good advice that BREAD contains. Evasive creatures are good only insofar as your deck must have a way to win, but if you invite players to take evasive creatures over others all you're really telling them is to force U/W. That's not the worst strategy, but it's as likely to get them into trouble as to help them.
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5CB PotM - June 2005, November 2005, February 2006, April 2008, May 2008, Feb 2009
MTGSalvation Articles: 1-20, plus guest appearance on MTGCast #86!
<Limited Clan>
Yes that's fair. I'm fine with it as a system for complete beginners. If you've done 0-3 drafts before (any format) then it's probably going to help you a little bit.
Although even then, just saying "removal is even more important than you think it is" probably covers all the good advice that BREAD contains. Evasive creatures are good only insofar as your deck must have a way to win, but if you invite players to take evasive creatures over others all you're really telling them is to force U/W. That's not the worst strategy, but it's as likely to get them into trouble as to help them.
E is for effective BTW. Giant growth, Divination, Evasive, Giant Spider, even ok removal fits Divine verdict ect. It's important to explain the cards in "E" can also be "D" in the wrong deck or if you have too many. E=Evasive just doesn't make sense for the reasons you stated.
Serra Angel>doom blade.
Wind drake significantly > Grey ogre is also very useful.
Divinate> or < Wind drake.
Grizzly bears> Dreg Reaver.
Is important info to new drafters.
Bombs- The best cards.
Removal- The highly effective kill spells(Doom blade).
Effective- Roleplayers. Card advantage, Pump spells, Evasive beaters, Medicore removal, Ramp.
Agro- Beaters to fill a curve, Lava Axe, Falter effect ect.
Dregs- Unplayables
"I have no idea what it's like not to be a straight white male, and the experiences of others are irrelevant." -Conservative Motto
Calling someone a Commie is flaming and must be stopped, but turning the word Conservative into a loaded pejorative and using it over and over again is perfectly acceptable.
Many cards that give "advantage" are way, way better than evasive creatures. They're also seldom found at Common anyway, making the advice rather useless in terms of telling you what to pick from packs where all the best stuff is gone.
By far the most important thing anyone needs to know about BREAD is that by the time you're reading a thread discussing the finer points you should stop using it.
...the system is just so deeply flawed that it's a mystery to me why people continue to advocate it.
Yeah, I don't get it either. It doesn't make sense to me. There's no way you can learn how to draft appropriately through methods like that. It just isn't going to happen. Experience is going to be key -- anytime you start playing a format, there is a learning curve and a period of frustration and growth. For me, at this point, that is legacy. I'm fairly good at limited, I know my way around standard, and I have played a bunch of modern. However, I'm not that familiar with legacy - I play some to improve, but sometimes I just don't do well at all. However, that's part of the learning curve of magic. You have to be bad for a while before you can be good, because you need some time to learn from your mistakes. There's really no getting around it, and playing "wrong" will teach you more about winning than someone telling you how to play "right."
So you're saying it should be Bombs, Removal, Evasion, And Synergy, Then Scraps? Or in other words, you're advocating that we stop playing with BREAD and start playing with BREASTS.
Sounds good.
Obviously the problem with today's limited Magic is that players either don't pay enough attention or know anythiing about BREASTS.
Just want to add a mana base should not be based only off of color/mana symbol ratio's.
A 3MM is less significant than 1MM (where M is any color) in your final mana base. Furthermore if your early drops are more slanted toward a certain color (say 11 out of 17 cards under 3cc are of one color) then you will favor that color in your final mana base since it will help you curve out more than going just off of the mana symbol ratio. It is also important to realize when a spell should be a spell cast early compared to one that can be cast early but retains value throughout the game (like a 2cc combat trick vs a 2cc curve creature)
If you keep these things in mind you'll have a more solid mana base than one based just off of mana symbol ratios.
1. Why are creature enchantments not often drafted? (EG: Dark Favor)
2. Is 17 lands generally considered the best amount for your average deck? (Taking into account mana excel and all that)
3. What is your average spell make up? (Creatures to instants, ect.)
4. How do you determine how many of each land to run?
5. What's your take on creatures with defender?
Also, it would be incredibly helpful if any of you could redirect me to sites where I could learn more!
Thank you!
2. Generally, 17 lands is correect. You can alter it to 16 or 18 depending on your average mana costs.
3. You want a lot of creatures, but ultimately I just play the best cards I got. 15 creatures is a decent goal.
4. I count up the total number of each mana symbol in my deck, then use some math to break that down into a ratio equalling 17 lands. For example, if you have 15 green mana symbols and 10 white mana symbols, that breaks down to a 3:2 ratio, which equals a 9:6 ratio. From that point, I'd probably just add 1 more of each and end up with 10 Forest and 7 Plains.
B - Bombs
R - Removal
E - Evasion
AD - Something else that no one agrees on
Aura's open you up to being 2-for-1'd That is, if the opponent kills your creature, you lose the creature and the enchantment. It's usually better just to have a second creature in play instead of an aura. A lot of aura's aren't that good either.
17 is a good starting point and a very common number of lands, but some decks do run better on 18 or 16 depending.
I like around 14 to 18 creatures with 9 to 5 other spells. Usually the others are removal or combat tricks, but can be something else, too, like a Planeswalker or token generator.
Count how many cards of each color I'm running, then divide the lands in a similar ratio. I will adjust this number based on other factors, too.
Generally bad, but very occasionally worth including. Really varies with the deck and format, but my general rule is to avoid them, unless they have a great secondary ability.
When building your deck, lay everything out according to mana cost. Curve is crucial.
M13 for example though has several hexproff dorks that make aura's more playable. That and rancor as an aura doens't have quite the two for one disadvantage since they have to respond to cast. And mark of the vampire is strong enough to be worthwhile to just get one swing in with it also mitigating the affect of removal.
Understanding auras in limited is an advanced tactic and that is why it isn't typically recommended; knowing when to play auras is a decision that can only be made by someone with a strong grasp of the format ie someone who doesn't need limited advice in the first place.
2) yes it typically is with 16 being the low (running less opens you to all sort of problems) and 18 being possible if you are heavily bomb oriented. You can typically cut a land if you have 2.5 cheap mana sources. (I would count a mana dork as half a mana source since they can kill it if they see you are having mana issues)
3) This is another advance option, I have won drafts with 3 creatures in the deck. It is entirely up to the format, what you open, and how strong your answers are. Typically around 15 with 18 being better if you are strait aggro (ie you know you don't have the gas to win lategame) isn't a bad rule of thumb.
4)I'm probably not as good at this as I could be so I'll just say the other posters explanations on this seem good. I do typcically never run less than 6 sources of a non-splash color without fixing no matter how the numbers crunch.
5) Depends on the defender but if you know you have lategame picking up a couple of strong walls to make it there isn't bad. They are useless though if you are being the aggressor or you know your late game is weak.
And my 2cents...
I will (format depending) take acceleration way over evasive guys most of the time, lately the best ones have been Cultivate, Joraga Treespeaker, Llanowar Elves, Arbor Elf, Rampant Growth and Farseek. Something else to consider is efficiency (like Wild Nacatl or Vampire Lacerator or Diregraf Ghoul) which can help a more aggro deck speed up the game.
Check it out might help you out.
Sig. created by http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=182339
Legacy Decks:
Legendary Maverick GW
Once the set releases on Magic Online, reading the threads here is a pretty good way to learn. In particular the draftcaps subforum will have lots of draft walkthroughs in. Reading those is a good way to improve your drafting. (Especially if you question any pick that seems wrong to you.)
Next time you draft a deck that you expect to do well with but don't, keep the deck together and post a decklist here for comments. That should give you some useful tips about where you might be making mistakes.
Last but not least: don't rely too much on BREAD. It's a good way to simplify things for your first few drafts, but in reality it's a pretty terrible system.
(I'm on on this site much anymore. If you want to get in touch it's probably best to email me: dom@heffalumps.org)
Forum Awards: Best Writer 2005, Best Limited Strategist 2005-2012
5CB PotM - June 2005, November 2005, February 2006, April 2008, May 2008, Feb 2009
MTGSalvation Articles: 1-20, plus guest appearance on MTGCast #86!
<Limited Clan>
I would suggest the "Limited Resources" and "Simon Says" weekly videos on mtgoacademy.com, due to their clear and concise commentary during live drafts.
http://www.mtgcast.com/?cat=52
Sig and avi by Darth Monkey and SGT Chubbz of Damnation Studios!
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AGREE UPON THIS!
How you should approach every game of Magic.
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My Flawless Score MCC Card | My Other One | # Three!
Erm... no!
Many cards that give "advantage" are way, way better than evasive creatures. They're also seldom found at Common anyway, making the advice rather useless in terms of telling you what to pick from packs where all the best stuff is gone.
By far the most important thing anyone needs to know about BREAD is that by the time you're reading a thread discussing the finer points you should stop using it.
Rain of Blades over Knight of Glory?
Jace's Phantasm over Archaeomancer?
Crippling Blight over Vampire Nighthawk?
Is Goblin Arsonist removal?
Is Switcheroo a "bomb"?
...the system is just so deeply flawed that it's a mystery to me why people continue to advocate it.
(I'm on on this site much anymore. If you want to get in touch it's probably best to email me: dom@heffalumps.org)
Forum Awards: Best Writer 2005, Best Limited Strategist 2005-2012
5CB PotM - June 2005, November 2005, February 2006, April 2008, May 2008, Feb 2009
MTGSalvation Articles: 1-20, plus guest appearance on MTGCast #86!
<Limited Clan>
As you said, the BREAD system is incomplete and there are many exceptions, but it's not a bad system for less experienced players to start with. You have to learn the basics and baselines before you can understand the exceptions to that baseline.
After that, BREAD is essentially useless. Most importantly, it's missing a big S for Synergy With The Cards You've Already Drafted.
Very well said.
It's in my sig dude.
How you should approach every game of Magic.
Mod Helpdesk (defunct)
My Flawless Score MCC Card | My Other One | # Three!
Yes that's fair. I'm fine with it as a system for complete beginners. If you've done 0-3 drafts before (any format) then it's probably going to help you a little bit.
Although even then, just saying "removal is even more important than you think it is" probably covers all the good advice that BREAD contains. Evasive creatures are good only insofar as your deck must have a way to win, but if you invite players to take evasive creatures over others all you're really telling them is to force U/W. That's not the worst strategy, but it's as likely to get them into trouble as to help them.
(I'm on on this site much anymore. If you want to get in touch it's probably best to email me: dom@heffalumps.org)
Forum Awards: Best Writer 2005, Best Limited Strategist 2005-2012
5CB PotM - June 2005, November 2005, February 2006, April 2008, May 2008, Feb 2009
MTGSalvation Articles: 1-20, plus guest appearance on MTGCast #86!
<Limited Clan>
A is for argo sir.
E is for effective BTW. Giant growth, Divination, Evasive, Giant Spider, even ok removal fits Divine verdict ect. It's important to explain the cards in "E" can also be "D" in the wrong deck or if you have too many. E=Evasive just doesn't make sense for the reasons you stated.
Serra Angel>doom blade.
Wind drake significantly > Grey ogre is also very useful.
Divinate> or < Wind drake.
Grizzly bears> Dreg Reaver.
Is important info to new drafters.
Bombs- The best cards.
Removal- The highly effective kill spells(Doom blade).
Effective- Roleplayers. Card advantage, Pump spells, Evasive beaters, Medicore removal, Ramp.
Agro- Beaters to fill a curve, Lava Axe, Falter effect ect.
Dregs- Unplayables
Flame infraction. - Blinking Spirit
Calling someone a Commie is flaming and must be stopped, but turning the word Conservative into a loaded pejorative and using it over and over again is perfectly acceptable.
Yeah, I don't get it either. It doesn't make sense to me. There's no way you can learn how to draft appropriately through methods like that. It just isn't going to happen. Experience is going to be key -- anytime you start playing a format, there is a learning curve and a period of frustration and growth. For me, at this point, that is legacy. I'm fairly good at limited, I know my way around standard, and I have played a bunch of modern. However, I'm not that familiar with legacy - I play some to improve, but sometimes I just don't do well at all. However, that's part of the learning curve of magic. You have to be bad for a while before you can be good, because you need some time to learn from your mistakes. There's really no getting around it, and playing "wrong" will teach you more about winning than someone telling you how to play "right."
*DCI Rules Advisor*
Obviously the problem with today's limited Magic is that players either don't pay enough attention or know anythiing about BREASTS.
A 3MM is less significant than 1MM (where M is any color) in your final mana base. Furthermore if your early drops are more slanted toward a certain color (say 11 out of 17 cards under 3cc are of one color) then you will favor that color in your final mana base since it will help you curve out more than going just off of the mana symbol ratio. It is also important to realize when a spell should be a spell cast early compared to one that can be cast early but retains value throughout the game (like a 2cc combat trick vs a 2cc curve creature)
If you keep these things in mind you'll have a more solid mana base than one based just off of mana symbol ratios.