I know I'm late to this party, but I've finally come around to agree that AVR is a stale format. I can't defend it anymore. This is not for bragging, but I actually never did worse than 2-1 in Swiss queues. I only say that to emphasize that it's not sour grapes. The format got boring really quickly for me.
I know we've rehashed the format's weaknesses, but I haven't heard many people talk about learning curve. Here was my experience with AVR and I wonder if others shared the same.
1) New format -- always exciting
2) Getting a feel for the metagame, best/worst decks, etc.
3) Refining that down to specific strategies -- avoid Black unless it's amazing, try for UG Soulbond or RW Humans since those are generally the best decks
4) Execute those strategies effectively for a few drafts
5) Get really really bored because once you get to Step 4, there's no more learning, it's just who got passed a better set of cards
Every set has this general progression, I just don't remember the dropoff from Steps 4 to 5 being quite so steep. The metagame isn't obvious, but once you know it, it's really straight forward.
Welcome to the darkside. We have refreshments at the back table
But I think the biggest problem (at least for me anyways) is that those steps you listed went by way too fast. The feeling of the format being new and exciting lasted like one sealed and a couple drafts and then I found it boring. Green being by far the best color is obvious to most after the first couple of drafts (when you crush someone or get crushed by Druid's Familiar you start to come to that realization). And really, once you figure out the best colors and card combinations to pair with green things get stale fast since the format doesn't have a ton of interaction going on. Blue has the best soulbond creatures outside of green, making it a natural pairing, while red has a lot of good synergies with green at uncommon and common in addition to having the most aggressive creatures in the format (many which work well with green's fat undercosted beaters). A lot of games devolve into crashing your dudes into their dudes and hoping yours are bigger which gets boring really quickly.
That's actually why I never really began getting into AVR in the first place. Just watching drafts online or even back when the set was getting spoiled there really wasn't anything that made it 'pop' like almost every other format has.
I'm actually really glad that AVR is standalone, because I wouldn't want them to waste time and design on adding on to AVR. All formats do become 'solvable' eventually, but AVR seems to be not too far off from play kinda vanilla dudes and some underwhelming tricks.
The thing that makes most formats exciting for a while is the the existance of few archetypes that reward taking risks in earlier picks or being able to regularly play the deck you want. Being able to draft the Burning Vengeance, Spiders, Mill-you, R/G Werewolves, etc. decks from DII or III made it interesting and fun. Back in the other standalone, ROE, there were so many different decks you could draft it was insane. And most of them were fun.
AVR is......the Soulbond Deck, R/W Humans, and maybe mono-black? Even those decks are basically just play dudes. That's not a fun format. There's not a single gimmicky card to build around (okay, Thatcher's Revolt and/or Goldnight Commander).
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I think another issue lies in the fact that WoTC like to avoid overly complicated stuff in a given cardpool, but the people who are avidly drafting are for the most part pretty good at the game. It only takes one solid look at the block to see where some really good strategies are, it would be nice if there were more 'sleeper' combos or something of the like we could stumble upon later in the meta.
Then again you could draft all the kill spells, and nobody has a good time but you.
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I guess I don't draft enough to ever get burnt out on a set. When I read things like some people having already done 50-60 drafts of AVR, I'm like, where do you find the time/money???
I've done like 12 (strictly swiss here), and had more success in them than I have in any other format. I finally cracked 1800 for the first time ever. So, I guess I need to thank all the actual good players who decided to sit this one out.
Also, I have been winning with other decks besides U/G Soulbond, R/W Humans, and Mono-Black. The majority of my decks have been decks other than these. R/U, R/G, B/G, B/U and G/W to name a few. Of course, maybe that's just Swiss for you.
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
For me, that's how my FNM is around here, and I don't mind the constant practices of drafting since limited is my favorite kind of format. It is a pain with this format since it has many flaws, but it is still fun to keep playing it anyway.
Better or worse, it just helps in your drafting skills for M13
Although this format isn't as diverse as DII, I still love drafting so much that I have fun no matter what sets I'm using. Besides, Avacyn has soooo many money cards that it's easy to "pay" for the draft just by opening one of them.
Among other things, I've acquired a playset of Cavern of Souls just via drafting. Easy with a set like this.
III was a unique format and I realize comparing almost any set to it is going to show III as the better one, but one major thing that made it so awesome was that you could draft practically anything. There was a very narrow band of power, and the stuff that sucked in the format didn't suck so badly that you couldn't take stuff speculatively and experiment.
AVR has an extremely wide power band, and the good cards are extremely obvious, so as a result you always get punished for experimenting. For example, G/B Triumph of Ferocity/Cruelty ought to have been potentially powerful, but the speed of the format plus the suckiness of Cruelty means the deck stands no chance as an archetype. U/B loners should have been interesting, but it wasn't, because Soulbond is too good for loners to compete and the available loners are too disruptible (and too few). U/R aggro control should have had potential, but there aren't any 2-drops in those colors to make it worth aiming for consistently.
The format had lots of potential, the reason it's boring is just plain poor tuning.
Wit's End is the PERFECT answer to your opponent's Monomania however.
Just hold on to your Wit's End when they Monomania, so you can Wit's End them on your next turn!!!
I think this is fairly reminiscent of the "Jace Battles" we have seen in past standards.. My guess is we will soon witness the great Monomania-Wit's End battles.
I did 2 sealed and prolly 4-5 AVR drafts. It just wasn't exciting or interesting. There wasn't much beyond going Soulbond.dec or Humans.dec, or the off-chance no one at your table took 1 black card, you could go Mono Black or splash for 1 or 2 awesome cards. That coupled with the fact there is not much removal outside of red makes it more of a smash contest, and Soulbond tends to win those.
I guess I don't draft enough to ever get burnt out on a set. When I read things like some people having already done 50-60 drafts of AVR, I'm like, where do you find the time/money???
Hehe I don't think 50-60 drafts is a lot compared to some here. Bateleur wrote somewhere he's already done 220 limited events in this format.
Your post made me do the math on the last month of playing. Putting a few sealed events to the side, I've drafted 50 8-4 and 4322 events. I won 10 and placed second in 12. In addition, I lost in the 2nd round of a 4322 10 times.
In total, I won 126 packs and paid 150 packs and 100 tix. So net I paid about 200 tix for the 2250 cards I drafted. That's not infinite, but its not total ruin either.
When it comes to time, estimating 20 minutes to draft and 20 minutes per round, this whole thing adds up to about 2 hours per day. That actually makes me feel a bit bad, but it was fun up to this point.
I also want to add that I don't at all think the format is super bad. I've had great fun, and there is still a ton to learn if you want to understand the subtleties and dynamics of drafting. Just because there are only 3-4 viable archetypes (which I doubt), there is still a whole art in actually drafting them. Think about swimming: how many million strokes do you need to drill before its perfect?
Maybe I'll cut to only 5 drafts per week now, but I'm not done.
Do you guys really find core set drafts to be better?
No way. Core set is worse in just about every way. If you think AVR is dominated by guys just smashing into each other in very predictable ways, wait for M13 to come around.
It's interesting that usually I hate a set because it does not reward skillful play. I don't think that's the case with AVR. I think skill is rewarded for just about any deck except the RW insane draw like curve into Goldnight Commander followed by Thatcher Revolt.
The games just all seem the same to me. Nothing exciting ever really happens except maybe you'll see a Mythic you've never seen in play before. There aren't cool combos or creative uses of bad cards or little incremental advantages that add up over time. A lot of the time I feel like I'm playing with Telepathy, because I just "know" what my opponent is going to have based on his colors. Like the Red deck is playing Turn 3 Fervent Cathar just about every time but there's nothing I can do about it -- I can't play two blockers on Turn 2! It's just going to happen and I'm going to get smashed. Similarly you just know the Blue player is going to have a Mist Raven for your first legitimate threat. I know those are exaggerations but the format really feels that way to me. Everything goes according to formula.
So I definitely think that it's a format that awards your draft knowledge.
The evidence you present does not support this claim. You've had practice, but there's no reason to suppose that your opponents have not also had practice. Is it not more reasonable to suppose that a lot of people here still playing the format are doing well because the good players (who typically play a lot) got bored and stopped a couple of weeks ago?
(That isn't supposed to be some kind of cryptic insult, by the way. I've done fairly badly at this format, so I don't get to insult anyone! ;))
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Is it not more reasonable to suppose that a lot of people here still playing the format are doing well because the good players (who typically play a lot) got bored and stopped a couple of weeks ago?
I do have some rough anecdotal evidence to support this. I've noticed that while I'm still playing in the same queues I always have, the number of times I'm matched up against a complete newbie who clearly should not be drafting has increased significantly. I'm not just talking about players who make a weird move or misclick once, I mean players that do stuff like:
47 card main deck
Mono color featuring a ton of filler for no apparent reason
Four color deck with no mana fixing for no apparent reason
Clearly don't understand some game mechanics
I had an opponent recently leave the game for 5 minutes to report a bug -- that the game wouldn't "let" his Nephalia Smuggler use its ability on my turn right after he played it. I explained summoning sickness to him. He didn't get it, and insisted it was a bug. He even asked the ORC if he could restart our game!
My point is that I haven't had an interaction like that in YEARS in draft queues, and in recent weeks they would regularly in Round 1. I don't mind the free wins, but it does suggest that the more experienced players are sitting it out, therefore I'm more likely to get matched up against someone new to draft and not even aware of basic strategy.
The other day I kept an awful, awful 5 card hand and was gifted a dude who put Lightning Prowess on a Stonewright and then used it to kill his own Smuggler, AND the Stonewright itself, then later Bone Splintered his own creature. It reminded me of the old days of Shandalar when the computer players would randomly Giant Growth your creatures.
There are some fun decks you can build, like the UW Mill deck No one ever takes the Walls or Rotcrown Ghouls
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... proceed to crawl up the wall in crab position with your head hanging backwards until you reach the ceiling. Once you are there, start screaming "For the Glory of Satan" while blood seeps out of your eye sockets (bonus points if they land on her desk).
Generally works for me in those kinds of situations.
Is it not more reasonable to suppose that a lot of people here still playing the format are doing well because the good players (who typically play a lot) got bored and stopped a couple of weeks ago?
Can't really disagree.
Recently played a guy maindecking threeMidnight Duelists, and a guy who paid 1 for his own Fettergeist on an empty board...and then still sacced it.
Despite this, I am still having fun. What can I say?
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
There are some fun decks you can build, like the UW Mill deck No one ever takes the Walls or Rotcrown Ghouls
If you can pick up 2 Stern Mentors, this is a really neat deck, especially w/ one shot effects like Dreadwaters. The two mill commons are both like 13th-14th pick cards.
You know what I've actually found somewhat refreshing since quitting AVR? M12. That's how miserable the current format is.
I've also been wondering if an AVR/DA/ISD draft would be so terrible, but haven't bothered to try and put that together. It mean, it definitely can't be worse than triple AVR, the miracle and soulbond mechanics might not be so oppressively powerful diluted that much.
You know what I've actually found somewhat refreshing since quitting AVR? M12. That's how miserable the current format is.
I liked M12 and I like modern core sets in general. I would still be playing it myself if the prices of the rares didn't fall down so low. I don't agree with the earlier comment that AVR is bad like a core set - it's worse. M12 had plentiful good removal: Shock, Incinerate, Fireball, and Chandra's Outrage in red; Doom Blade, Sorin's Thirst, and Wring Flesh in black; Arachnus Web in green; Pacifism and Oblivion Ring in white; Frost Breath, Cancel, and Mind Control in blue. AVR is like a core set that has half or more of its removal taken out and leaves in the Ice Cage / Brink of Disaster tier removal to mock you. All the while the color known for it's good removal, black, is one of the worst two colors in the set.
I truly believe the reason for the lack of removal, especially Instants, is Soulbond. I'd wager they had the standard suite of removal in the set originally, and then in playtesting people kept getting blown out by a mid-combat removal spell breaking up a soulbond and creating an easy 2-for-1, to the point that people were actively avoiding that risk and the soulbond mechanic itself. R&D doesn't want to print a mechanic that no one uses in either Constructed or Limited. They can't control that Constructed is going to have great removal, so the only option was to nerf it in Limited. That way even if people never used it in Constructed, they could at least say it was designed for Limited and people used it there extensively therefore it was a success.
Even Miracle fits this description. Barring some very specific circumstances, you're not Miracle'ing a removal spell mid combat. They're either amazing Sorceries or expensive Instants.
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I know we've rehashed the format's weaknesses, but I haven't heard many people talk about learning curve. Here was my experience with AVR and I wonder if others shared the same.
1) New format -- always exciting
2) Getting a feel for the metagame, best/worst decks, etc.
3) Refining that down to specific strategies -- avoid Black unless it's amazing, try for UG Soulbond or RW Humans since those are generally the best decks
4) Execute those strategies effectively for a few drafts
5) Get really really bored because once you get to Step 4, there's no more learning, it's just who got passed a better set of cards
Every set has this general progression, I just don't remember the dropoff from Steps 4 to 5 being quite so steep. The metagame isn't obvious, but once you know it, it's really straight forward.
Any thoughts?
But I think the biggest problem (at least for me anyways) is that those steps you listed went by way too fast. The feeling of the format being new and exciting lasted like one sealed and a couple drafts and then I found it boring. Green being by far the best color is obvious to most after the first couple of drafts (when you crush someone or get crushed by Druid's Familiar you start to come to that realization). And really, once you figure out the best colors and card combinations to pair with green things get stale fast since the format doesn't have a ton of interaction going on. Blue has the best soulbond creatures outside of green, making it a natural pairing, while red has a lot of good synergies with green at uncommon and common in addition to having the most aggressive creatures in the format (many which work well with green's fat undercosted beaters). A lot of games devolve into crashing your dudes into their dudes and hoping yours are bigger which gets boring really quickly.
But this is also the set that I've won the most matches with, so... it's hard to stop.
Really wish the set would've continued with the Innistrad / Dark Ascension themes instead of being stand-alone.
Same here. I've raised my rating significantly. I really wish it were a more interesting format. It just needs some more nuance or something.
LOL - echoing this. I've gained 150 rating points, but I think I'm done grinding this format after a month and about 60 drafts.
I'm actually really glad that AVR is standalone, because I wouldn't want them to waste time and design on adding on to AVR. All formats do become 'solvable' eventually, but AVR seems to be not too far off from play kinda vanilla dudes and some underwhelming tricks.
The thing that makes most formats exciting for a while is the the existance of few archetypes that reward taking risks in earlier picks or being able to regularly play the deck you want. Being able to draft the Burning Vengeance, Spiders, Mill-you, R/G Werewolves, etc. decks from DII or III made it interesting and fun. Back in the other standalone, ROE, there were so many different decks you could draft it was insane. And most of them were fun.
AVR is......the Soulbond Deck, R/W Humans, and maybe mono-black? Even those decks are basically just play dudes. That's not a fun format. There's not a single gimmicky card to build around (okay, Thatcher's Revolt and/or Goldnight Commander).
Drop by my Helpdesk if you have any questions/concerns on the Limited forum.
Excited for M13 Limited? What do you think the format will look like? Head over to the limited forum and let us know what you think.
Then again you could draft all the kill spells, and nobody has a good time but you.
UR Niv-Mizzet RU
I've done like 12 (strictly swiss here), and had more success in them than I have in any other format. I finally cracked 1800 for the first time ever. So, I guess I need to thank all the actual good players who decided to sit this one out.
Also, I have been winning with other decks besides U/G Soulbond, R/W Humans, and Mono-Black. The majority of my decks have been decks other than these. R/U, R/G, B/G, B/U and G/W to name a few. Of course, maybe that's just Swiss for you.
Better or worse, it just helps in your drafting skills for M13
Among other things, I've acquired a playset of Cavern of Souls just via drafting. Easy with a set like this.
AVR has an extremely wide power band, and the good cards are extremely obvious, so as a result you always get punished for experimenting. For example, G/B Triumph of Ferocity/Cruelty ought to have been potentially powerful, but the speed of the format plus the suckiness of Cruelty means the deck stands no chance as an archetype. U/B loners should have been interesting, but it wasn't, because Soulbond is too good for loners to compete and the available loners are too disruptible (and too few). U/R aggro control should have had potential, but there aren't any 2-drops in those colors to make it worth aiming for consistently.
The format had lots of potential, the reason it's boring is just plain poor tuning.
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WB Modern Tokens BW
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Hehe I don't think 50-60 drafts is a lot compared to some here. Bateleur wrote somewhere he's already done 220 limited events in this format.
Your post made me do the math on the last month of playing. Putting a few sealed events to the side, I've drafted 50 8-4 and 4322 events. I won 10 and placed second in 12. In addition, I lost in the 2nd round of a 4322 10 times.
In total, I won 126 packs and paid 150 packs and 100 tix. So net I paid about 200 tix for the 2250 cards I drafted. That's not infinite, but its not total ruin either.
When it comes to time, estimating 20 minutes to draft and 20 minutes per round, this whole thing adds up to about 2 hours per day. That actually makes me feel a bit bad, but it was fun up to this point.
I also want to add that I don't at all think the format is super bad. I've had great fun, and there is still a ton to learn if you want to understand the subtleties and dynamics of drafting. Just because there are only 3-4 viable archetypes (which I doubt), there is still a whole art in actually drafting them. Think about swimming: how many million strokes do you need to drill before its perfect?
Maybe I'll cut to only 5 drafts per week now, but I'm not done.
No way. Core set is worse in just about every way. If you think AVR is dominated by guys just smashing into each other in very predictable ways, wait for M13 to come around.
It's interesting that usually I hate a set because it does not reward skillful play. I don't think that's the case with AVR. I think skill is rewarded for just about any deck except the RW insane draw like curve into Goldnight Commander followed by Thatcher Revolt.
The games just all seem the same to me. Nothing exciting ever really happens except maybe you'll see a Mythic you've never seen in play before. There aren't cool combos or creative uses of bad cards or little incremental advantages that add up over time. A lot of the time I feel like I'm playing with Telepathy, because I just "know" what my opponent is going to have based on his colors. Like the Red deck is playing Turn 3 Fervent Cathar just about every time but there's nothing I can do about it -- I can't play two blockers on Turn 2! It's just going to happen and I'm going to get smashed. Similarly you just know the Blue player is going to have a Mist Raven for your first legitimate threat. I know those are exaggerations but the format really feels that way to me. Everything goes according to formula.
The evidence you present does not support this claim. You've had practice, but there's no reason to suppose that your opponents have not also had practice. Is it not more reasonable to suppose that a lot of people here still playing the format are doing well because the good players (who typically play a lot) got bored and stopped a couple of weeks ago?
(That isn't supposed to be some kind of cryptic insult, by the way. I've done fairly badly at this format, so I don't get to insult anyone! ;))
(I'm on on this site much anymore. If you want to get in touch it's probably best to email me: dom@heffalumps.org)
Forum Awards: Best Writer 2005, Best Limited Strategist 2005-2012
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I do have some rough anecdotal evidence to support this. I've noticed that while I'm still playing in the same queues I always have, the number of times I'm matched up against a complete newbie who clearly should not be drafting has increased significantly. I'm not just talking about players who make a weird move or misclick once, I mean players that do stuff like:
47 card main deck
Mono color featuring a ton of filler for no apparent reason
Four color deck with no mana fixing for no apparent reason
Clearly don't understand some game mechanics
I had an opponent recently leave the game for 5 minutes to report a bug -- that the game wouldn't "let" his Nephalia Smuggler use its ability on my turn right after he played it. I explained summoning sickness to him. He didn't get it, and insisted it was a bug. He even asked the ORC if he could restart our game!
My point is that I haven't had an interaction like that in YEARS in draft queues, and in recent weeks they would regularly in Round 1. I don't mind the free wins, but it does suggest that the more experienced players are sitting it out, therefore I'm more likely to get matched up against someone new to draft and not even aware of basic strategy.
Generally works for me in those kinds of situations.
Can't really disagree.
Recently played a guy maindecking three Midnight Duelists, and a guy who paid 1 for his own Fettergeist on an empty board...and then still sacced it.
Despite this, I am still having fun. What can I say?
If you can pick up 2 Stern Mentors, this is a really neat deck, especially w/ one shot effects like Dreadwaters. The two mill commons are both like 13th-14th pick cards.
You just need lots and lots of Defangs
I've also been wondering if an AVR/DA/ISD draft would be so terrible, but haven't bothered to try and put that together. It mean, it definitely can't be worse than triple AVR, the miracle and soulbond mechanics might not be so oppressively powerful diluted that much.
I liked M12 and I like modern core sets in general. I would still be playing it myself if the prices of the rares didn't fall down so low. I don't agree with the earlier comment that AVR is bad like a core set - it's worse. M12 had plentiful good removal: Shock, Incinerate, Fireball, and Chandra's Outrage in red; Doom Blade, Sorin's Thirst, and Wring Flesh in black; Arachnus Web in green; Pacifism and Oblivion Ring in white; Frost Breath, Cancel, and Mind Control in blue. AVR is like a core set that has half or more of its removal taken out and leaves in the Ice Cage / Brink of Disaster tier removal to mock you. All the while the color known for it's good removal, black, is one of the worst two colors in the set.
Even Miracle fits this description. Barring some very specific circumstances, you're not Miracle'ing a removal spell mid combat. They're either amazing Sorceries or expensive Instants.