I've been looking over the various common/uncommon werewolves and struggling to value them properly for limited. I generally assume that I will not reliably flip them and want the front-face to be useful enough that I feel like I'm playing crap if it doesn't flip.
Note I used to think villagers were crap, but I've found a 2/3 on turn 3 is a respectable body - stops all kinds of tokens and bears and doesn't die to geistflame, dead weight, or fires of undeath. The +2+3 upside if he flips is probably more respectable than the upsides of midnight guard and selhoff occultist
Decent - willing to play these but not surprised when they preform badly
I think I may be underrating outcasts but not sure. Hermit and waif fit aggressive decks that can live with a goblin piker or mons goblin raiders early on if they have to. I generally don't think turn 2 flipped waif is enough to offset the turn 5 failwaif unless I have a real aggressive deck.
I feel like 4 mana is too much for a 3/2, especially given the presence of 2-damage removal spells like dead weight, double-geistflame, and fires of undeath. I could see boarding deserter in vs equipment decks but I don't think I'd maindeck it unless I was in a real bind for dudes. I never want to pay 2 mana for a llanowar elf and I never want to pay 3 mana for a 1/2 (see 2 toughness threshold above).
How does that stack up with other peoples assessments?
The werewolf support cards also deserve mention:
full moon's rise with a critical mass of werewolves this card is very very good. But you really need like 7 or 8 to be sure you're getting value.
moonmist if I have even a few wolf/werewolf creatures I'm more than happy to run this. The fog effect is fine, the transform effect is fantastic, and the wolf/werewolf dealing damage can often turn it into removal or even a 2-for-1.
immerwolf I do not like very much. He is the worst of the dark ascension lords in my opinion. The "no flipping" ability is nowhere near as relevant as first strike or deathtouch which affect the board immediately. Intimidate is pretty lousy on a multicolour creature, and the +1+1 is really more valuable for the common spirit and zombie tokens - wolf tokens are confined to rares and mythics by comparison.
I consider Village Ironsmith to be virtually unplayable, maybe only included if your curve desperately needs a 2 drop. I would switch its spot with Tormented Pariah. I'll play a Pariah to fill out the top of my curve - when it flips it hits pretty hard. Paired with Nightbird's Clutches and Crossway it gets in... plus you can always hold it back as a scary blocker when both players are topdecking.
I've had success with Immerwolf, but I agree intimidate on a multi-colored card is pretty meh.
Hinterland Hermit and Scorned Villager are actually quite acceptable in this format. The Hermit is a 2-power 2-drop with an upside that's often relevant.
Also, if G/R has indeed become more of a relevant deck due to the presence of Wild Hunger and solid on-curve guys like Hollowhenge Beast, then Immerwolf is quite a beating. Saying it's the worst of the lords is sort of like saying that Jareth, Leonin Titan is the worst CCC3 legend in Onslaught: it might be the worst of the cycle, but it's still quite good in decks that support it.
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I havent played the ironsmith in a long time, but I felt like first strike is pretty solid. As indicated I wouldn't be surprised if he failed miserably from time to time (geistflame).
I'm surprised people like scorned villager tbh... the myr were good largely because they helped with metalcraft and could provide splash colour mana or on-colour mana when missing it from your lands. Not sure werewolf tribal stuff is comparable to metalcraft enabling.
I need the card to be respectable without being flipped - if its terrible unflipped I really don't like playing it. I'd consider a 1G llanowar elf terrible
Villagers of Estwald is a tad better than reflected here, as it often comes down on turn two. With the advent of another green mana accelerator, Villagers moves up to my number two slot.
I never assume my werewolves won't flip. If they aren't flipping in the early game, I'm happy because that means I'm developing my board. At some point in the mid-/late-game, they are definitely going to be flipped unless I've already won.
Villagers of Estwald is a tad better than reflected here, as it often comes down on turn two. With the advent of another green mana accelerator, Villagers moves up to my number two slot.
Often seems like an exaggeration as avacyn's pilgrim is the only way this happens - and you'd have to draft and draw both. Not impossible but not something to really include in evaluating the card.
I never assume my werewolves won't flip. If they aren't flipping in the early game, I'm happy because that means I'm developing my board. At some point in the mid-/late-game, they are definitely going to be flipped unless I've already won.
~M
It's awesome when your opponent comes up with a dead turn and you get a free flip, and occasionally you can skip a turn to flip it yourself (hopefully with relevant instants in hand). In both cases you're already on the winning edge, but what matters more is how they preform when things aren't going fantastic - that's when you need the front face to not be a liability.
I find anything with less than 3 toughness you should assume it will be killed, often for half a card. Even if it lives it probably becomes irrelevant by turn 4
The original list seems pretty good for the most part; I might shuffle some guys up or down a couple places, but that's just details.
The only thing that seems way off is, as others have mentioned, Scorned Villager. It's really good, and I just don't think that's debatable. I think it's the best green common in Dark Ascension, even if that's not saying too much (Kessig Recluse being the only real competition for that title, and I'm pretty sure the mana guy is better).
Scorned Villager is good. 4 mana on turn 3 is pretty good, even if it's no Avacyn's Pilgrim.
It also isn't quite as useless as your average Llanowar Elves in the late game, since it becomes a 2/2 if you run out of spells to cast with it.
Outcasts seems about in the right position. It's solid but there are so many other 5-drops in the format that you don't need to pick them highly.
Immerwolf is not bad. He gives your regular Wolves +1/+1 too, which is actually relevant since there are a bunch of common Wolves and they don't take up a DFC slot.
It's really tough to put commons and uncommons next to each other but I'd put scorned villagers way up there.
Thankfully they are in different sets, but scorned villager and villagers of estwald is neck and neck to top common werewolves and I'd pick scorned first.
Reckless waif is really good. Casting it on turn 1 is a beating a lot and even on turn 9, it's still good.
I think Reckless Waif is a trap. (And not just because it's red, etc.)
I definitely win more of my games against T1 Waif than I lose against it. Even against Waif turn 1 on the play, I still think I'm better than 50%. In order to make it good, you pretty much have to curve out 1-2, with it flipping on your opponent's turn 1. If you don't play a 2-drop they just trade with their 2-drop and they have stabilized. Also, let us not speak of what happens if your opponent has a 1-drop too, because it isn't pretty. Especially if theirs is Avacyn's Pilgrim.
Granted, you can try to build a deck to make the 1-2 curve happen fairly often, but the card is still disastrously bad any time after turn 3 or so.
What do people have against an undercosted first strike guy for 1R? I would gladly pay 1R for a 1/1 first strike that I can put equipment on to have him dominate everything. Bonus points because he's human and gets great synergies there. When he flips, he becomes a real hose killing all of the 2/3s in the format and easily winning battles against almost everything up to 4CC mana cost.
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1. As was said, scorned villager is good. I think you'd usually play it in this format even if it had no flipside.
2. I agree that lamholdt elder is very weak. You need to be running immerwolf and/or moonmist for it to be anywhere near good.
3. Afflicted deserter is better than pariah. The ability to blow up artifacts > 1 point of power.
4. Hermit is definitely solid. Red has a glut of 2/1s for 1R but he may be the best of them. I haven't played with it enough to say exactly how good the "must be blocked" clause is.
5. Immerwolf is the nuts.
My top 4. Gastaf is just badass whenever, whenever. Multiple Villagers of Estwald (easier in ISDx3) get out of control so fast, especially if you ramp with pilgrim. Scorned Villager got me t3 Outcasts twice tonight, nuts. And Outcasts, a 4/4 for 5 is fine, and if they ever get to flip? Sprinkles.
That being said I hate red werewolves, the new artifact destroyer is nice, but other then him...meh.
What do people have against an undercosted first strike guy for 1R? I would gladly pay 1R for a 1/1 first strike that I can put equipment on to have him dominate everything. Bonus points because he's human and gets great synergies there. When he flips, he becomes a real hose killing all of the 2/3s in the format and easily winning battles against almost everything up to 4CC mana cost.
there just isn't a lot of equipment that works well in red decks. You already have some really good creature-support cards in nightbird's clutches and traitorous blood -- and those are already in your color. In a red aggro deck, you only have so many spots for "tricks" and cards that enhance your creatures - since you don't have any equipment that has good synergy with your guys, there are other cards that are a more natural fit.
Since red beatdown is typically the best red deck, a 1/1 is rather unimpressive. Typically you want the game to last around 5 turns, so you don't care if your guys die in combat - you just want to get in damage quickly.
If you are more of a controlling deck using red removal, a 1/1 is even more irrelevant.
Granted, sometimes he is a 3/1, but the rule with werewolves is that you have to treat them as if they won't flip -- you should view the flipside as more of a bonus than something you expect to happen consistently.
Waif is a lot better in BR than GR I think and it's waaay worse on the draw. I don't think there are that many T1 plays and if it flips it becomes really good, getting for some good early damage and then trading for something that your opponent probably didn't want to trade with your 1 drop.
waif puts a ton of pressure on them if it lands on turn one -- enough that it's worth the gamble to include, because it's one of the most miserable late game topdecks possible. However, I have won multiple games playing TWO spells - waif into furor of the bitten, or waif into spectral flight. If they don't have removal immediately, you can kill them with that very easily.
I'd probably rank them as follows:
Good - Werewolves I'm happy to play
Note I used to think villagers were crap, but I've found a 2/3 on turn 3 is a respectable body - stops all kinds of tokens and bears and doesn't die to geistflame, dead weight, or fires of undeath. The +2+3 upside if he flips is probably more respectable than the upsides of midnight guard and selhoff occultist
Decent - willing to play these but not surprised when they preform badly
I think I may be underrating outcasts but not sure. Hermit and waif fit aggressive decks that can live with a goblin piker or mons goblin raiders early on if they have to. I generally don't think turn 2 flipped waif is enough to offset the turn 5 failwaif unless I have a real aggressive deck.
Bad - won't play these unless im desperate
I feel like 4 mana is too much for a 3/2, especially given the presence of 2-damage removal spells like dead weight, double-geistflame, and fires of undeath. I could see boarding deserter in vs equipment decks but I don't think I'd maindeck it unless I was in a real bind for dudes. I never want to pay 2 mana for a llanowar elf and I never want to pay 3 mana for a 1/2 (see 2 toughness threshold above).
How does that stack up with other peoples assessments?
The werewolf support cards also deserve mention:
full moon's rise with a critical mass of werewolves this card is very very good. But you really need like 7 or 8 to be sure you're getting value.
moonmist if I have even a few wolf/werewolf creatures I'm more than happy to run this. The fog effect is fine, the transform effect is fantastic, and the wolf/werewolf dealing damage can often turn it into removal or even a 2-for-1.
immerwolf I do not like very much. He is the worst of the dark ascension lords in my opinion. The "no flipping" ability is nowhere near as relevant as first strike or deathtouch which affect the board immediately. Intimidate is pretty lousy on a multicolour creature, and the +1+1 is really more valuable for the common spirit and zombie tokens - wolf tokens are confined to rares and mythics by comparison.
Not even during Scars block? What if that 2-mana Llanowar Elf had a reasonable shot at bashing for 2 and accelerating you to 5 mana on turn 3?
I consider Village Ironsmith to be virtually unplayable, maybe only included if your curve desperately needs a 2 drop. I would switch its spot with Tormented Pariah. I'll play a Pariah to fill out the top of my curve - when it flips it hits pretty hard. Paired with Nightbird's Clutches and Crossway it gets in... plus you can always hold it back as a scary blocker when both players are topdecking.
I've had success with Immerwolf, but I agree intimidate on a multi-colored card is pretty meh.
Also, if G/R has indeed become more of a relevant deck due to the presence of Wild Hunger and solid on-curve guys like Hollowhenge Beast, then Immerwolf is quite a beating. Saying it's the worst of the lords is sort of like saying that Jareth, Leonin Titan is the worst CCC3 legend in Onslaught: it might be the worst of the cycle, but it's still quite good in decks that support it.
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I'm surprised people like scorned villager tbh... the myr were good largely because they helped with metalcraft and could provide splash colour mana or on-colour mana when missing it from your lands. Not sure werewolf tribal stuff is comparable to metalcraft enabling.
I need the card to be respectable without being flipped - if its terrible unflipped I really don't like playing it. I'd consider a 1G llanowar elf terrible
I never assume my werewolves won't flip. If they aren't flipping in the early game, I'm happy because that means I'm developing my board. At some point in the mid-/late-game, they are definitely going to be flipped unless I've already won.
~M
Often seems like an exaggeration as avacyn's pilgrim is the only way this happens - and you'd have to draft and draw both. Not impossible but not something to really include in evaluating the card.
It's awesome when your opponent comes up with a dead turn and you get a free flip, and occasionally you can skip a turn to flip it yourself (hopefully with relevant instants in hand). In both cases you're already on the winning edge, but what matters more is how they preform when things aren't going fantastic - that's when you need the front face to not be a liability.
I find anything with less than 3 toughness you should assume it will be killed, often for half a card. Even if it lives it probably becomes irrelevant by turn 4
The only thing that seems way off is, as others have mentioned, Scorned Villager. It's really good, and I just don't think that's debatable. I think it's the best green common in Dark Ascension, even if that's not saying too much (Kessig Recluse being the only real competition for that title, and I'm pretty sure the mana guy is better).
It also isn't quite as useless as your average Llanowar Elves in the late game, since it becomes a 2/2 if you run out of spells to cast with it.
Outcasts seems about in the right position. It's solid but there are so many other 5-drops in the format that you don't need to pick them highly.
Immerwolf is not bad. He gives your regular Wolves +1/+1 too, which is actually relevant since there are a bunch of common Wolves and they don't take up a DFC slot.
Thankfully they are in different sets, but scorned villager and villagers of estwald is neck and neck to top common werewolves and I'd pick scorned first.
Reckless waif is really good. Casting it on turn 1 is a beating a lot and even on turn 9, it's still good.
My have/wants trade list.
I definitely win more of my games against T1 Waif than I lose against it. Even against Waif turn 1 on the play, I still think I'm better than 50%. In order to make it good, you pretty much have to curve out 1-2, with it flipping on your opponent's turn 1. If you don't play a 2-drop they just trade with their 2-drop and they have stabilized. Also, let us not speak of what happens if your opponent has a 1-drop too, because it isn't pretty. Especially if theirs is Avacyn's Pilgrim.
Granted, you can try to build a deck to make the 1-2 curve happen fairly often, but the card is still disastrously bad any time after turn 3 or so.
1. As was said, scorned villager is good. I think you'd usually play it in this format even if it had no flipside.
2. I agree that lamholdt elder is very weak. You need to be running immerwolf and/or moonmist for it to be anywhere near good.
3. Afflicted deserter is better than pariah. The ability to blow up artifacts > 1 point of power.
4. Hermit is definitely solid. Red has a glut of 2/1s for 1R but he may be the best of them. I haven't played with it enough to say exactly how good the "must be blocked" clause is.
5. Immerwolf is the nuts.
2 Villagers of estwald
3 Scorned villager
4 Grizzled Outcasts
My top 4. Gastaf is just badass whenever, whenever. Multiple Villagers of Estwald (easier in ISDx3) get out of control so fast, especially if you ramp with pilgrim. Scorned Villager got me t3 Outcasts twice tonight, nuts. And Outcasts, a 4/4 for 5 is fine, and if they ever get to flip? Sprinkles.
That being said I hate red werewolves, the new artifact destroyer is nice, but other then him...meh.
there just isn't a lot of equipment that works well in red decks. You already have some really good creature-support cards in nightbird's clutches and traitorous blood -- and those are already in your color. In a red aggro deck, you only have so many spots for "tricks" and cards that enhance your creatures - since you don't have any equipment that has good synergy with your guys, there are other cards that are a more natural fit.
Since red beatdown is typically the best red deck, a 1/1 is rather unimpressive. Typically you want the game to last around 5 turns, so you don't care if your guys die in combat - you just want to get in damage quickly.
If you are more of a controlling deck using red removal, a 1/1 is even more irrelevant.
Granted, sometimes he is a 3/1, but the rule with werewolves is that you have to treat them as if they won't flip -- you should view the flipside as more of a bonus than something you expect to happen consistently.
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Scorned villager is awsome.
Awsome (Happy to pick 3rd or 4th)
1. Gastaf sheppard
2. Scorned Villager
3. Ulvenward Mystics
Good (happily play in most decks)
4. Recklass Waif (deck dependent. agro beatdown required)
5. Villagers of estwald
6. Hanweir watchkeep (deck dependent, awsome in blue/red or any control red)
7. Grizzled outcasts
Meh (Play these 80% of the time and not thrilled)
8. Hinterland hermit
9. Village ironsmith
Id prefer not to play these (Similar to meh, but im more upset when they make my deck)
10. Afflicted deserter
11. Tormented pariah
Sucks very badly (I just wont play unless I have to or have a very specialized deck)
12. Lambholdt elder
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waif puts a ton of pressure on them if it lands on turn one -- enough that it's worth the gamble to include, because it's one of the most miserable late game topdecks possible. However, I have won multiple games playing TWO spells - waif into furor of the bitten, or waif into spectral flight. If they don't have removal immediately, you can kill them with that very easily.
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