Curses

  • #1
    I'm wondering what you guys think the playability of different curses is, as it's hard to evaluate their influence on the board state, both in draft and in sealed (as the pre-release is so obviously sealed). My suspicions for each curse is down below, but I could be way off.

    Curse of the Bloody Tome :2mana::symu:
    Enchantment - Aura Curse Common
    Enchant player
    At the beginning of enchanted player's upkeep, that player puts the top two cards of his or her library into his or her graveyard.

    Seems like an excellent curse for blue, to enchant yourself in sealed. There are a lot of powerful Skaabs you need creatures in your graveyard for and flashback is good. The main problem is that you will die in 10 turns at most.
    I guess it's too slow for draft. In any case I wouldn't want to enchant my opponent with this, ever. Also, it's not really something you'd be excited to get multiples of.

    Curse of Oblivion :3mana::symb:
    Enchantment - Aura Curse Common
    Enchant player
    At the beginning of enchanted player's upkeep, that player exiles two cards from his or her graveyard.

    This seems extremely playable in sealed to keep an opponent with an empty graveyard, hosing flashbackers, green care about graveyard cards, blue I need graveyard cards and black return from graveyard cards.
    Again I think it's too slow for draft, though definitely more playable than Curse of the Bloody Tome.

    Curse of the Nightly Haunt :2mana::symr:
    Enchantment - Aura Curse Uncommon
    Enchant Player
    Creatures enchanted player controls attack each turn if able.

    Obviously this thing is very deck dependant, but overall you could make very good use of this, for you can choose when to enchant your opponent with this and he'll have to attack the very next turn and every turn afterwards. Seems good in slow sealed to break stalemates, seems not so special in draft, you'd probably want another always useful playable if you have one.

    Curse of the Pierced Heart :1mana::symr:
    Enchantment - Aura Curse Common
    Enchant Player
    At the beginning of enchanted player's upkeep, Curse of the Pierced Heart deals 1 damage to that player.

    It puts some pressure on for sure, but I doubt it's good outside a very agressive deck in sealed. A couple of these do seem to give good reach to an aggro red strategy in sealed.
    Seems simply bad in draft.
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  • #3
    Curse of the Nightly Haunt seems better to me than you give it credit for. Whilst its use obviously varies it seems as though it could quite often be game winning. Not only can you sometimes kill things for free - and it's a great way to get rid of werewolves if you cast something else in the same turn - but also it will make blocking almost impossible for your opponent. What aggressive deck wouldn't want the opponent's blockers hosed every turn?
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  • #4
    Curse of oblivion seems pretty bad to me. Even in odyssey, which was much more graveyard size oriented than innistrad, dedicated graveyard hate wasn't that good unless it was attached to a creature or some other effect.

    In innistrad some non-blue decks will only have a few flashback cards, a curse that gives them several turns to cast anything useful in their graveyard seems bad to unplayable.
  • #5
    Curse of the Bloody Tome: I disagree with your analysis entirely; it seems more playable in draft than in Sealed. You need pretty much your whole deck to work around this to want this kind of effect. In Sealed this should be very rare, while in draft it's maybe possible to build around this. Even there it seems hard to pull off though.

    Curse of Oblivion: If there's a draft archetype that uses Curse of the Bloody Tome, this might be a fine sideboard answer to it.

    Curse of the Nightly Hunt seems quite playable to me. It depends on the match-up though; you don't want this against an aggressive deck.

    Curse of the Pierced Heart is weak.
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  • #6
    Curse of the Nightly Haunt is insane.

    If you look at Fumiko the Lowblood as a gauge, then this card has to be almost as good as that. Fumiko was good because she was also sort of an abyss, but this curse can't easily be killed like her.

    This guy will be insane in both agressive decks (who want to race) and control decks with good blockers.
  • #7
    Quote from Tahn
    In Sealed this should be very rare, while in draft it's maybe possible to build around this. Even there it seems hard to pull off though.

    With Dream Twist also at Common there is definitely going to be a draftable mill deck (maybe not good, but certainly viable).
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  • #8
    Curse of the Nightly Haunt is a very good card
  • #9
    It seems that starting this thread is at least very good for me, I see now I overvalued the Curse of Oblivion. It does seem like good sideboard against blue decks which rely very much on graveyards.

    I did not think of the Curse of the Bloody Tome as being able to draft an entire archetype around it, if that works then yes, it's a good card. If 50% of your deck has a use in your graveyard, it's a Phyrexian Arena pretty much. At what percentage is it good enough to cast on yourself? I suppose if you have less than 25% you don't want it, at more than 25% it gives you something useful every other turn. That equals 10 flashback cards and I doubt you'll ever go much beyond that. Apart from that, Skaabs also like this, but a lot of flashback spells mean that you'll have trouble casting them. Still not totally sold on this card.

    Curse of the Nightly Hunt is indeed very useful if things work out, but once you're behind it doesn't help you at all. On the one hand, red has that 3/1 first-strike gaining common and the common that does 1 damage to each creature it blocks, making combat more favorable for you. On the other hand, drawing this when you're losing seems like a bad thing.
    Would you always play this card if you're in red?
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  • #10
    Quote from Casual
    Curse of the Nightly Haunt :2mana::symr:


    Quote from bateleur
    Curse of the Nightly Haunt seems better to me


    Quote from moogie
    Curse of the Nightly Haunt is insane.


    Quote from demiurge3141
    Curse of the Nightly Haunt is a very good card


    You all got me to double check but it's definitely a Nightly Hunt! Wink


    Quote from moogie
    If you look at Fumiko the Lowblood as a gauge, then this card has to be almost as good as that. Fumiko was good because she was also sort of an abyss, but this curse can't easily be killed like her.


    Being an enchantment rather than a creature makes a lot of difference though (and not just because of the synergy with the ability itself). While I agree that the effect is very powerful, it's also quite situational. If you're behind, it's not going to be very good. In Limited, situational effects tend to be a lot better when placed on a (reasonably sized) creature; if nothing else you still have a random dork.
    Last edited by Tahn: 9/19/2011 9:30:41 AM
    You really just need to embrace the rage. I keep a small colony of hamsters next to my computer and every time I lose a match to mana screw I throw one against the wall.
  • #11
    Quote from Tahn
    You all got me to double check but it's definitely a Nightly Hunt! Wink


    But don't you find it even a bit creepy (haunting, even) that everyone made the same mistake?

    I wasn't too impressed with most of the Curses, but the -1/-1 one looks to be absurd. Curse of the Nightly Whatever looks solid, but I doubt it will be too insane. I can't get a read on the graveyard ones, but they look to be niche cards rather than format staples, if I had to make a snap judgment.
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  • #12
    I think the Bloody Tome one will be interesting, because with all the self-mill in the set, mill cards aimed at your opponent actually become better if you can mill them pretty fast. The blue mirror could involve some pretty interesting play decisions and sideboard choices.
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  • #13
    i wouldn't ever enchant myself with Curse of the Bloody Tome in sealed deck. the upside is you might cast a Skaab a turn or two earlier then normal. the downside is you accidentally mill your bombs and/or just kill yourself if your opponent decides to play for a ground stall.

    i'd definitely considering Bloody Toming my opponent if my deck was sufficiently controlling. thats a viable win condition in a slow format.
  • #14
    Quote from metamorph
    i'd definitely considering Bloody Toming my opponent if my deck was sufficiently controlling. thats a viable win condition in a slow format.


    I hate to admit it, but this set looks like it could support a controlling mill strategy with just the Curses as the source. Blue has the 1/6, a flashback bounce spell, and a flashback Time Ebb at common, and it can pair with another color to play the defensive game. If the format is as slow as, say, RoE, then two Curses played back to back on turns 3 and 4 could end the game in pretty quick order...
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    Signalling is like farting: it's a natural thing that helps people avoid being where you are, and if you try to do it deliberately, things turn to crap fast.


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    I hereby found the American Chapter of the Zealots of Semantics. All glory to The Curmudgeon.
  • #15
    Quote from Tahn
    You all got me to double check but it's definitely a Nightly Hunt! Wink


    I actually copied this from mtgsalvation's spoiler, so it's wrong in there as well. I did catch the 'palyer' that is typed out in mtgsalvation's spoiler.

    I left out the -1/-1 curse because frankly, anyone can see that it's absolutely bonkers :p

    The graveyard ones, for interaction, have some interaction with the blue skaabs, of which 2 are at common and require 1 creature, so they require little work and don't need the blue curse and are not shut off completely by the black curse. In black and green, black card advantage (return 2 zombie cards/gravedigger variant) are partly hosed by the black one, but still not completely, same problem with the Woodland Sleuth in green. The black one is probably completely relegated to sideboard against things like multiple creature Skaabs and the green return all creatures from your graveyard to your hand cards. In red and white there's no graveyard interaction at all past flashback, so neither of them is of any use.
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  • #16
    Curse of the bloody tome and the flashback mill 3 are both at common and cheap to cast. It is reasonable to say that they will enable mill as a win condition in draft as they are practically useless in every other deck, which will often allow the mill player to force that archetype and pick them up in large numbers.

    Two bloody tome curses by turn 4 and your opponent is dead within 5-6 turns even if you don't mill anything else. Add flashback mill 3 to that... those are pretty fair odds for a mill deck, I'd think. Admittedly it's a strategy I'd stay away from, but I think it'll steal plenty of wins.
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  • #17
    Quote from Tahn

    Being an enchantment rather than a creature makes a lot of difference though (and not just because of the synergy with the ability itself). While I agree that the effect is very powerful, it's also quite situational. If you're behind, it's not going to be very good. In Limited, situational effects tend to be a lot better when placed on a (reasonably sized) creature; if nothing else you still have a random dork.


    This is where I disagree. I don't think this ability is really all that situational. There aren't going to be many situations where your opponent's creatures being forced to attack will be a detriment to you.

    Sometimes, yes, you'll find yourself in a situation where you're so far behind this card won't help you, but the same can be said for just about any card.
  • #18
    Quote from Semantics
    I hate to admit it, but this set looks like it could support a controlling mill strategy with just the Curses as the source.

    The reason I was suggesting a second mill card is needed isn't because Curses can't get the job done, it's because you're unlikely to draft enough Curses reliably to build the deck that way. (You can't pick them highly, because that kind of deck needs to save its early picks in each packs for the control cards that keep it alive long enough to win.)
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  • #19
    Quote from moogie
    This is where I disagree. I don't think this ability is really all that situational. There aren't going to be many situations where your opponent's creatures being forced to attack will be a detriment to you.

    Sometimes, yes, you'll find yourself in a situation where you're so far behind this card won't help you, but the same can be said for just about any card.


    the biggest problem i have with Curse of the Nightly Haunt is the awkwardness it has with other red cards. this is a card that sets you up to gain a big board advantage if you've got a really nice blocker to eat your opponents forced attacks with. how many red creatures in this set do a good job of eating forced attackers?

    none of them from what i can see. this requires pairing with a few specific creatures in other colors. so, kind of interesting card in RW or RG decks. not sure its especially playable in other decks. and with potential to be a dead draw of course, which is frustrating too.
  • #20
    Quote from metamorph
    the biggest problem i have with Curse of the Nightly Haunt is the awkwardness it has with other red cards. this is a card that sets you up to gain a big board advantage if you've got a really nice blocker to eat your opponents forced attacks with. how many red creatures in this set do a good job of eating forced attackers?

    none of them from what i can see. this requires pairing with a few specific creatures in other colors. so, kind of interesting card in RW or RG decks. not sure its especially playable in other decks. and with potential to be a dead draw of course, which is frustrating too.


    You don't block.... you play the curse in an agrro deck where dropping it usually means game over in your next turn,
  • #21
    Quote from metamorph
    the biggest problem i have with Curse of the Nightly Haunt is the awkwardness it has with other red cards. this is a card that sets you up to gain a big board advantage if you've got a really nice blocker to eat your opponents forced attacks with. how many red creatures in this set do a good job of eating forced attackers?

    none of them from what i can see. this requires pairing with a few specific creatures in other colors. so, kind of interesting card in RW or RG decks. not sure its especially playable in other decks. and with potential to be a dead draw of course, which is frustrating too.


    As was stated, you don't have to block their attackers. The thing is, removing your opponent's ability to choose what he does with his creatures is GOOD. All of your opponents creatures being forced to attack every turn is better than him being able to choose.

    If you have some massive blocker (this could be a big green dude, the 3/1 first striking werewolf, or even just the 3/1 wolf that gains first strike), then this thing is the abyss, if you don't but you're ahead on life, then you'll win the race.

    Also, with all of the morbid-esque triggers (like on Falkenrath Noble), even if you're just trading your guys that will be good for you.
  • #22
    you defintely don't want to be on a trading 1 for 1 situation after you've invested a card in a non-creature permanent. you'll often come out on the losing side of that just because your opponent had an extra card that might have been a creature.
  • #23
    Quote from metamorph
    you defintely don't want to be on a trading 1 for 1 situation after you've invested a card in a non-creature permanent. you'll often come out on the losing side of that just because your opponent had an extra card that might have been a creature.


    Saying that trading is bad when you're down a card is ludicrous. That's like saying that trading is bad when you're on the play. Sometimes you have to trade, and other times you'll have other incentives (like morbid triggers or other cards in your hand).

    Again, what you do with your creatures is optional. You can block or not, while your opponent MUST attack. This is where the power of this card comes from. You get to dictate all the combat steps. Sometimes trading your guys for his will be the right choice, sometimes racing will, and other times you'll have some big creatures to eat his. The point remains, though, that you posses most of the control and he doesn't, making this card very powerful.
  • #24
    this set could definitely support a mill in a draft. we have three commons that mill, and to a lesser extent two uncommons (door and trepanation). blue also has that giant 1/6 crab, a perfect wall for the deck. It's the three commons that makes it viable, that means a lot more chances for cards for the deck.
  • #25
    Quote from moogie
    Saying that trading is bad when you're down a card is ludicrous. That's like saying that trading is bad when you're on the play.



    why is it ludicrous? if you are down a card and you trade one-for-one you will run out of cards first and your opponent will have a board and you won't, and then you'll get beat down and lose. this is simple card advantage. you call it ludicrous, i call it the most basic mechanics of the game.

    whether or not trading is bad when you're on the play depends entirely on the tempo of the game. when you're on the play you have an opportunity to attack with the bigger creatures first (your 3 drop into their 2 drop, for example) which would suggest that if you trade at all then you're trading down. generally its bad to trade down, but its such an abstract statement that its almost meaningless. but yes, in general we can say that trading on the play is often trading down and thats often bad. also not a ludicrous statement.
    Last edited by metamorph: 9/19/2011 7:49:08 PM
  • #26
    The problem with your statement, again, is that its painfully generalized. Sometimes you'll be right, but plenty of times you'll be wrong too. Saying that its always bad to trade creatures when you cast a non-creature spell that didn't replace itself is just not going to be true every time (or even most of the time, I'm going to guess).

    For instance, as I said before, if you have one of the very strong creatures with a "when creatures die" trigger, like murder of crows or the one that shocks players,then by all means, trade trade trade, since it won't take many triggers of those guys to completely lock the game up in your favor.

    Similarly, if you have even one Ghoulcaller, trading away a zombie is VERY good.
    Last edited by moogie: 9/19/2011 9:52:39 PM
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