Maybe I'm just a bad player, but that deck is insane and losing with it first round is just a punch to the face.
Anyways, it looks like infect would be my worst matchup because I have so much artifact removal. Is this true? I would like to know the best ways of dealing with strong infect decks other than playing a mirror infect match.
Just trade your creatures for their creatures, and board in random stuff that gets in the way for value. Beating infect is all about trading, trading, trading.
If this forum had Greasers, Phoenix, Commons and Semantics would be the leaders of the gang and every time they commented on something they would do a synchronized finger snap then smoke a cigarette.
Sorry but memnite x2, kembas skyguard, dispense justice, and an unabuseable barrage ogre dont make an insane deck. You have decent cards but not focused enough for the top tables in the format. You are like midrangey goodstuff.dec which is precisely what infect preys upon.
Sorry but memnite x2, kembas skyguard, dispense justice, and an unabuseable barrage ogre dont make an insane deck. You have decent cards but not focused enough for the top tables in the format. You are like midrangey goodstuff.dec which is precisely what infect preys upon.
Yeah I was hoping for "better" artifacts, but they never came my way.
Memnite helped my Hawks get out early in a few games. I never really had a problem with Kemba's Skyguard, though...it doesn't seem that bad (Maybe against infect, but it's still a 2/2 flyer for 3CC). I wouldn't say Barrage Ogre was un-abusable, I have at least 3 or 4 artifacts that I wouldn't mind letting him throw.
Dispense Justice is good removal, is it not? (Sorry, just turned half of the focus of this thread into "How can I make my deckbuilding better?")
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
WKemba, Kha Regent [EDH]
"When you look into the eyes of a man grown old,
wonder about the secrets gone untold.
When you look into the eyes of a young child,
marvel at the innocence running wild."
As someone who plays infect a lot, what I hate seeing most is:
- Any First Strike (Bladed Pinions, mainly)
- Embersmith
- Arc Trail
- Black Spellbomb (I try to play 2 or 3 corpse curs in any infect deck)
- Trigon of Corruption
Most of infect's creatures are weenies that can get pinged away. If you can slow them down with a fat body (Wall of Tanglecord, etc), then get some card advantage on them or a midranged creature, they're screwed.
You had a solid deck that shouldn't have had much trouble. It may have been bad plays or blocking choices that ultimately made it a loss. Mostly this is just something you practice, but you should review your replays (if this was on MTGO) and figure out how you could have got the upper hand.
I'll watch my losing replays often and it has helped immensely in figuring out what I missed in the heat of the moment.
Yeah I was hoping for "better" artifacts, but they never came my way.
Yup. Know how that feels.
Memnite helped my Hawks get out early in a few games. I never really had a problem with Kemba's Skyguard, though...it doesn't seem that bad (Maybe against infect, but it's still a 2/2 flyer for 3CC). I wouldn't say Barrage Ogre was un-abusable, I have at least 3 or 4 artifacts that I wouldn't mind letting him throw.
Memnite is dead if you draw it any time after the opening 2 turns pretty much.
A 2/2 flier for 3 is good, but not focused. It can be used in a stronger b/w or u/w goodstuff/fliers decks respectively. Your deck does not have enough CA to really succeed as just a goodstuff deck, and thats why your metalcraft theme is diluted.
"willing to throw" does not remotely equal abuse. A deck with funeral celebration, four spellbombs, four mana myrs, necrogen censer, myrsmith, perilous myrs... Etc. Note you don't need all of that to be true in one deck, but more than you have certainly. (one spellbomb : /. )
Dispense Justice is good removal, is it not? (Sorry, just turned half of the focus of this thread into "How can I make my deckbuilding better?")
Removal is good, but not all removal is good removal if you catch my drift. Yes, on average, dispense justice will be good enough because it is removal and will probably be maindeck. There are a lot of limitations though which make it far from good removal.
The advice against poison is right so far. Trade trade trade. Try to avoid letting them get you in a position for the blowout untamed might.
Your deck was really good, no doubt. Anything other than Infect should have a hard time beating you here. Don't base your whole assessment of yourself and your deck on one match which featured the best two rares for Infect. Hand/Putreface alone win matches, let alone side by side.
Yes, make trades every chance you get. Try for first strike, -1 counters from Trigon or Contagion Clasp, Fume Spitter, or try to abuse Arc Trail. Remember sometimes it won't matter what you do though, so don't get down on one match. You are just as likely to face the best deck at the table as you are the worst in round one (aside from your own factoring in)
I usually just try to clog up the board and trade whenever possible.
If you can pick up wall of tanglecords and loxodon wayfarer, u can stall the ground for a while, plus the loxodon can block the Tel-jilad Fallen.
Pretty much what everyone said so far. Clog the ground and trade at every opportunity possible. Don't try to race infect unless you will win next turn. Many times when I play as the infect player decks will try to race me and most times I just don't understand why they even try unless the ground is completely clogged or they have a Hoard-Smelter Dragon racing me.
Another important factor in beating infect is during the actual draft. Instead of taking random cards or hating fringe cards from other strategies focus on drafting sideboard cards for your own decks. Take things like Loxodon Wayfarer, Plated Seastrider, and Soul Parry over random other things. You have to always think about almost every pick. Don't go into auto pilot in the last 5 or 4 picks in a pack. Every pick should be thought out and better your deck whether it's through the maindeck or the sideboard.
Lastly though I would like to say that Travis is completely right. Don't go losing faith in yourself after one draft. It's just one draft and from what you told us your opponent had a pretty nutty infect deck. Just go out next time and beat infect with a great sideboard. Will make you feel much better.
I'm still relatively new to the limited scene, so reading replies of that quality really help me learn. Now I know I won't feel as helpless as I normally do going up against an infect deck. They have tiny creatures that I can easily trade with (which I want to do as much as possible), first strike is golden, and think strategically before making any last second "whatever" picks. Got it.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
WKemba, Kha Regent [EDH]
"When you look into the eyes of a man grown old,
wonder about the secrets gone untold.
When you look into the eyes of a young child,
marvel at the innocence running wild."
Also 2x Shatter, 2x Revoke Existence and 2x Oxidda Scrapmelter lose alot of value against infect (also Rust Tick but 1/3 for 3 is decent against infect by itself), and without these cards at full value your deck is pretty unexciting.
Sideboard out 2 shatters and 2 revokes for 4 lowcost creatures and your deck is solid vs Infect, if you have five 2-3 drop creatures in the board (ferrovore, daredevil, shikari replicas) this deck can easily handle your average infect deck, sadly youre lacking Galvanic Blast/Arc-Trail to deal with Hand of Praetors so that perticular creature is going to be difficult to deal with.
The other card which can be good to sideboard against some Infect decks is Auriok Replica. Keeping only open, you can protect yourself against Untamed Might.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
--
(I'm on on this site much anymore. If you want to get in touch it's probably best to email me: dom@heffalumps.org)
Forum Awards: Best Writer 2005, Best Limited Strategist 2005-2012
5CB PotM - June 2005, November 2005, February 2006, April 2008, May 2008, Feb 2009
MTGSalvation Articles: 1-20, plus guest appearance on MTGCast #86!
<Limited Clan>
You also need to adapt your pick order to what you have drafted already. After you have 2 Scrapmelters and 2 between Revoke Existence and Shatter, the third and espeically fourth Revoke/Shatter should go down in value. I don't know your draft, but maybe there was for example a Ghalma's Warden to pick over the last Shatter effect.
You really just need to embrace the rage. I keep a small colony of hamsters next to my computer and every time I lose a match to mana screw I throw one against the wall.
Removal is good, but not all removal is good removal if you catch my drift. Yes, on average, dispense justice will be good enough because it is removal and will probably be maindeck. There are a lot of limitations though which make it far from good removal.
Dispense Justice is great against infect. Infect rarely stops swinging, and putting them down a creature is more than good enough. It's utterly amazing against them if you have metalcraft though. The limitations are more important against decks where creature quality is the issue (i.e. they're swinging with two Myr tokens and a Sunblast Angel), against infect all of their guys are a major threats. I'd only really be dissapointed if they sac'd a corpse cur and corpse cur'd it.
Sorry but memnite x2, kembas skyguard, dispense justice, and an unabuseable barrage ogre dont make an insane deck. You have decent cards but not focused enough for the top tables in the format. You are like midrangey goodstuff.dec which is precisely what infect preys upon.
Against infect you just need artifacts for Ogre to be good, Block, Block, tap, sac? I'll take nothing and you lose some cradz. The problem here isn't that ogre is bad by itself, it's that it costs 3RR and he has one Mana Myr.
I think you also skipped over 2x Arrest.
Don't go into auto pilot in the last 5 or 4 picks in a pack. Every pick should be thought out and better your deck whether it's through the maindeck or the sideboard.
Don't know about everyone else, but If I get the chance to hate on infect I'll go there. I know hatedrafting is rarely the right choice, but if it's going to be between a late Cystbearer P1P8 and a Fulgent Distraction for my SB, I'm hating.
Infect is so reliant on getting a critical mass of infect guys that it can be very vulnerable to hate drafting as the viability of it in any draft is almost entirely dependent on the amount of infect cards in packs. So hate picks can occasionally force another drafter out of Infect and leave them with a mediocre pile. It's not going to be the right choice most of the time, but it's something to consider.
Sideboard out 2 shatters and 2 revokes for 4 lowcost creatures and your deck is solid vs Infect, if you have five 2-3 drop creatures in the board (ferrovore, daredevil, shikari replicas) this deck can easily handle your average infect deck, sadly youre lacking Galvanic Blast/Arc-Trail to deal with Hand of Praetors so that perticular creature is going to be difficult to deal with.
I'd just take out two shatters here. Revoke still deals with bombs, equipment (arbalest, axe), and trigons which help infect get 'there'. It's obviously dependent on your opponent's deck, but it still requires some thought.
(also Rust Tick but 1/3 for 3 is decent against infect by itself)
Rust Tick is more than decent if they're piling on Corpse Curs, Ichorclaw Myr and Necropedes. Heck I've forced Tumble Magnet activations
And if their trying to get you with Arbalest, Rust Tick can make it a nightmare for them.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Randomness:
Quote from Singer of White Line »
Hey, lolis with katanas are awesome, and I don't care about their home country.
Don't know about everyone else, but If I get the chance to hate on infect I'll go there. I know hatedrafting is rarely the right choice, but if it's going to be between a late Cystbearer P1P8 and a Fulgent Distraction for my SB, I'm hating.
Infect is so reliant on getting a critical mass of infect guys that it can be very vulnerable to hate drafting as the viability of it in any draft is almost entirely dependent on the amount of infect cards in packs. So hate picks can occasionally force another drafter out of Infect and leave them with a mediocre pile. It's not going to be the right choice most of the time, but it's something to consider.
Oh no, I do agree with you. Hating infect cards is also a very solid strategy. However if you see a p1p8 Cystbearer feel free to hate it but also consider that... you just saw a p1p8 Cystbearer (arguably the best common for the deck). So either there is no one at the table drafting infect or there is one infect drafter and he picked some uncommon over there bearer or prefers his 2 drop infect creatures. It's also entirely possible that you should have been infect if you see a p1p8 Cystbearer.
Regardless even if you aren't infect make sure to hate that Cystbearer since the distraction isn't one of the cards that a great sideboard card against infect or just in general. Then only deck I could see that card in is some aggressive Sunspear Shikari deck.
What I said still applies though. Stay aware during the last picks that some people say don't matter. Of course if you are trying not to lose to infect you should hate great infect creatures that show up late but if they aren't there look out for potential sideboard cards you can use.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
Yep, I lost round 1 to an infect deck with Putrefax, Hand of the Praetors, and various others such as Corpse Cur, Tangle Angler, Blight Mamba, etc...
Now for my deck:
White:
Arrest x 2
Revoke Existence x 2
Glint Hawk x 2
Ghalma's Warden x 1
Kemba's Skyguard x 1
Dispense Justice x 1
Red:
Shatter x 2
Oxidda Scrapmelter x 2
Hoard-Smelter Dragon x 1
Barrage Ogre x 1
Artifact:
Memnite x 2
Accorder's Shield x 1
Panic Spellbomb x 1
Golem Artisan x 1
Trigon of Rage x 1
Saberclaw Golem x 1
Iron Myr x 1
Rust Tick x 1
Maybe I'm just a bad player, but that deck is insane and losing with it first round is just a punch to the face.
Anyways, it looks like infect would be my worst matchup because I have so much artifact removal. Is this true? I would like to know the best ways of dealing with strong infect decks other than playing a mirror infect match.
Thanks!
"When you look into the eyes of a man grown old,
wonder about the secrets gone untold.
When you look into the eyes of a young child,
marvel at the innocence running wild."
Yeah I was hoping for "better" artifacts, but they never came my way.
Memnite helped my Hawks get out early in a few games. I never really had a problem with Kemba's Skyguard, though...it doesn't seem that bad (Maybe against infect, but it's still a 2/2 flyer for 3CC). I wouldn't say Barrage Ogre was un-abusable, I have at least 3 or 4 artifacts that I wouldn't mind letting him throw.
Dispense Justice is good removal, is it not? (Sorry, just turned half of the focus of this thread into "How can I make my deckbuilding better?")
"When you look into the eyes of a man grown old,
wonder about the secrets gone untold.
When you look into the eyes of a young child,
marvel at the innocence running wild."
- Any First Strike (Bladed Pinions, mainly)
- Embersmith
- Arc Trail
- Black Spellbomb (I try to play 2 or 3 corpse curs in any infect deck)
- Trigon of Corruption
Most of infect's creatures are weenies that can get pinged away. If you can slow them down with a fat body (Wall of Tanglecord, etc), then get some card advantage on them or a midranged creature, they're screwed.
You had a solid deck that shouldn't have had much trouble. It may have been bad plays or blocking choices that ultimately made it a loss. Mostly this is just something you practice, but you should review your replays (if this was on MTGO) and figure out how you could have got the upper hand.
I'll watch my losing replays often and it has helped immensely in figuring out what I missed in the heat of the moment.
I consistently bring in those 1R or 1B for 2/1 creatures just so they can trade with "better" infect creatures.
Sometimes, depending on my hand/deck, I wouldn't even hesitate to trade a Myr for a Vector Asp.
Also, try playing around Untamed Might if you can, as you want to minimize the chances of it randomly stealing games from you.
Check out my pauper cube!
and thanks to PurpleD @ [<--- Left Play Design <---] for making this awesome banner!
Limited is awesome, join us at [Limited]!
Yup. Know how that feels.
Memnite is dead if you draw it any time after the opening 2 turns pretty much.
A 2/2 flier for 3 is good, but not focused. It can be used in a stronger b/w or u/w goodstuff/fliers decks respectively. Your deck does not have enough CA to really succeed as just a goodstuff deck, and thats why your metalcraft theme is diluted.
"willing to throw" does not remotely equal abuse. A deck with funeral celebration, four spellbombs, four mana myrs, necrogen censer, myrsmith, perilous myrs... Etc. Note you don't need all of that to be true in one deck, but more than you have certainly. (one spellbomb : /. )
Removal is good, but not all removal is good removal if you catch my drift. Yes, on average, dispense justice will be good enough because it is removal and will probably be maindeck. There are a lot of limitations though which make it far from good removal.
The advice against poison is right so far. Trade trade trade. Try to avoid letting them get you in a position for the blowout untamed might.
Yes, make trades every chance you get. Try for first strike, -1 counters from Trigon or Contagion Clasp, Fume Spitter, or try to abuse Arc Trail. Remember sometimes it won't matter what you do though, so don't get down on one match. You are just as likely to face the best deck at the table as you are the worst in round one (aside from your own factoring in)
Peak rating 1832
Brain Freeze is the coolest card ever printed.
If you can pick up wall of tanglecords and loxodon wayfarer, u can stall the ground for a while, plus the loxodon can block the Tel-jilad Fallen.
Another important factor in beating infect is during the actual draft. Instead of taking random cards or hating fringe cards from other strategies focus on drafting sideboard cards for your own decks. Take things like Loxodon Wayfarer, Plated Seastrider, and Soul Parry over random other things. You have to always think about almost every pick. Don't go into auto pilot in the last 5 or 4 picks in a pack. Every pick should be thought out and better your deck whether it's through the maindeck or the sideboard.
Lastly though I would like to say that Travis is completely right. Don't go losing faith in yourself after one draft. It's just one draft and from what you told us your opponent had a pretty nutty infect deck. Just go out next time and beat infect with a great sideboard. Will make you feel much better.
I'm still relatively new to the limited scene, so reading replies of that quality really help me learn. Now I know I won't feel as helpless as I normally do going up against an infect deck. They have tiny creatures that I can easily trade with (which I want to do as much as possible), first strike is golden, and think strategically before making any last second "whatever" picks. Got it.
"When you look into the eyes of a man grown old,
wonder about the secrets gone untold.
When you look into the eyes of a young child,
marvel at the innocence running wild."
Sideboard out 2 shatters and 2 revokes for 4 lowcost creatures and your deck is solid vs Infect, if you have five 2-3 drop creatures in the board (ferrovore, daredevil, shikari replicas) this deck can easily handle your average infect deck, sadly youre lacking Galvanic Blast/Arc-Trail to deal with Hand of Praetors so that perticular creature is going to be difficult to deal with.
(I'm on on this site much anymore. If you want to get in touch it's probably best to email me: dom@heffalumps.org)
Forum Awards: Best Writer 2005, Best Limited Strategist 2005-2012
5CB PotM - June 2005, November 2005, February 2006, April 2008, May 2008, Feb 2009
MTGSalvation Articles: 1-20, plus guest appearance on MTGCast #86!
<Limited Clan>
Dispense Justice is great against infect. Infect rarely stops swinging, and putting them down a creature is more than good enough. It's utterly amazing against them if you have metalcraft though. The limitations are more important against decks where creature quality is the issue (i.e. they're swinging with two Myr tokens and a Sunblast Angel), against infect all of their guys are a major threats. I'd only really be dissapointed if they sac'd a corpse cur and corpse cur'd it.
Against infect you just need artifacts for Ogre to be good, Block, Block, tap, sac? I'll take nothing and you lose some cradz. The problem here isn't that ogre is bad by itself, it's that it costs 3RR and he has one Mana Myr.
I think you also skipped over 2x Arrest.
Don't know about everyone else, but If I get the chance to hate on infect I'll go there. I know hatedrafting is rarely the right choice, but if it's going to be between a late Cystbearer P1P8 and a Fulgent Distraction for my SB, I'm hating.
Infect is so reliant on getting a critical mass of infect guys that it can be very vulnerable to hate drafting as the viability of it in any draft is almost entirely dependent on the amount of infect cards in packs. So hate picks can occasionally force another drafter out of Infect and leave them with a mediocre pile. It's not going to be the right choice most of the time, but it's something to consider.
I'd just take out two shatters here. Revoke still deals with bombs, equipment (arbalest, axe), and trigons which help infect get 'there'. It's obviously dependent on your opponent's deck, but it still requires some thought.
Rust Tick is more than decent if they're piling on Corpse Curs, Ichorclaw Myr and Necropedes. Heck I've forced Tumble Magnet activations
And if their trying to get you with Arbalest, Rust Tick can make it a nightmare for them.
Oh no, I do agree with you. Hating infect cards is also a very solid strategy. However if you see a p1p8 Cystbearer feel free to hate it but also consider that... you just saw a p1p8 Cystbearer (arguably the best common for the deck). So either there is no one at the table drafting infect or there is one infect drafter and he picked some uncommon over there bearer or prefers his 2 drop infect creatures. It's also entirely possible that you should have been infect if you see a p1p8 Cystbearer.
Regardless even if you aren't infect make sure to hate that Cystbearer since the distraction isn't one of the cards that a great sideboard card against infect or just in general. Then only deck I could see that card in is some aggressive Sunspear Shikari deck.
What I said still applies though. Stay aware during the last picks that some people say don't matter. Of course if you are trying not to lose to infect you should hate great infect creatures that show up late but if they aren't there look out for potential sideboard cards you can use.