This is an attempt to rate the rares/mythics for limited play in Scars of Mirrodin draft/sealed. I'm going to present some initial opinions, which are quite subject to change of course. The purpose of this thread is for feedback and discussion so this is not supposed to be any kind of authoritative guide.
my classification system is not a strict number ranking, because every card performs differently in different situations. just broad categories that represent approximately how powerful a card usually is. I expect most of the controversy will be in what is a Sick Bomb vs. Regular Bomb. in my mind a sick bomb is a card that easily wins the game by itself in a small number of turns (unless removed of course). A regular bomb is a card that greatly increases your chances of winning the game but its impact either takes longer or is lesser than a Sick Bomb.
Darksteel Juggernaut is great, and Painful Quandry is unplayable IMO. Inexorable Tide is incredible in infect, and Prototype Portal is also very playable.
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I can't see etched champion being better than darksteel juggernaut, and nim deathmantle is playable. also, I think ezuri is one of the most overrated rares; this isn't lorwyn.
I'm of the frame of mind that Contagion Engine is the best card in the set for limited, followed by Hoard-Smelter Dragon, Molten-Tail Masticore, and Elspeth. I'm a bit incredulous that 2 of those 4 are not in the top tier. I would also move Sword of Body and Mind up there. It's an automatic first pick out of every single pack it's in.
To say that Koth is better than Elspeth seems absolutely insane to me. Koth has absolutely no way of protecting himself and does very little to a board on which you find yourself behind. Elspeth can completely and irrevocably turn a game in your favor or almost instantly pull you incredibly far ahead.
I'm also not sold on Carnifex Demon being in that upper echelon. It's certainly very, very good, but the fact that it's heavy black yet not Infect knocks it down a peg.
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Signalling is like farting: it's a natural thing that helps people avoid being where you are, and if you try to do it deliberately, things turn to crap fast.
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To say that Koth is better than Elspeth seems absolutely insane to me. Koth has absolutely no way of protecting himself and does very little to a board on which you find yourself behind. Elspeth can completely and irrevocably turn a game in your favor or almost instantly pull you incredibly far ahead.
How? 3 1/1's is really not that insane. If you can sit behind the 1/1's for 3 turns until you can set up the ultmate she is good, or if you can set up the ultimate right away by just going for lifegain into ultimate, but if you are in a position to do that then you probably have about an equal number or a greater number of creatures than the opponent, and you wouldn't want to ultimate anyway. Yeah she provides blockers for herself, but her ability is much less powerful than Koth's because it does not apply very much pressure, and her ultimate is not a near auto-win like Koth's is.
My main point is that I don't see Elspeth doing that much for you when you are behind, unless your opponent has a sea of Tel-Jilad Fallen. A couple 2/2's or any creature with evasion easily gets past the tokens to smack her.
How? 3 1/1's is really not that insane. If you can sit behind the 1/1's for 3 turns until you can set up the ultmate she is good, or if you can set up the ultimate right away by just going for lifegain into ultimate, but if you are in a position to do that then you probably have about an equal number or a greater number of creatures than the opponent, and you wouldn't want to ultimate anyway. Yeah she provides blockers for herself, but her ability is much less powerful than Koth's because it does not apply very much pressure, and her ultimate is not a near auto-win like Koth's is.
My main point is that I don't see Elspeth doing that much for you when you are behind, unless your opponent has a sea of Tel-Jilad Fallen. A couple 2/2's or any creature with evasion easily gets past the tokens to smack her.
The average size of creatures in this format is very unimpressive. Additionally, if the argument against Elspeth is that evasion can just fly over the tokens, then you seem to be forgetting that white has some very playable fliers of its own that could easily come out before you play the Elspeth, including Glint Hawk, Glint Hawk Idol, Kemba's Skyguard, and Razor Hippogriff. It seems as though the majority of your argument against her focuses on how well she can be a single-handed weapon that pulls an empty board into a win. That's not at all what I said. I said she can pull you out from trouble, which she very often can, certainly moreso than Koth, who is more highly rated in the OP's hierarchy.
Very seldom in this format do you find board states on which one player has absolutely nothing and the other is swarming. In the few cases when this does happen, only Sunblast Angel can really flip the board completely around in one fell swoop. Mostly, the board states in SoM are populated and complicated (that was by far the norm at the PTQ I attended yesterday), which is exactly the type of norm in which a board control card like Elspeth can truly dominate. At the PTQ, I saw about 5 games in which Elspeth resolved on the board. She won every single one of those games for her controller (she was under a Volition Reins in one game, so the opponent rode her to victory).
The point is that she is an enormous, board-altering presence that has more versatility than Koth and has the ability to protect both herself and you, which is usually her purpose. She is not really an offensive threat; her primary role is board control, and there are maybe one or two other cards in the set that can do the work she can in this regard.
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Signalling is like farting: it's a natural thing that helps people avoid being where you are, and if you try to do it deliberately, things turn to crap fast.
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I'm also not sold on Carnifex Demon being in that upper echelon. It's certainly very, very good, but the fact that it's heavy black yet not Infect knocks it down a peg.
I don't think colour is being considered here.
Carnifex Demon is great partly due to being immune to artifact removal. Steel Hellkite is weak by comparison simply because it is immediately removed such a high proportion of the time (empirically, around 50% in Sealed, not sure about Draft).
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As an aside, anyone else really, really pissed at WotC about Chimeric Mass? I get that you don't put -1/-1 counters in the set with +1/+1 counters because of confusion. Very good.
Now print cards that are easy to use. Chimeric mass with 6 charge counters and 4 -1/-1 counters on it is not intuitive. Switch "Charge" to "+1/+1" and it becomes VERY easy (it has 2 counters).
If this forum had Greasers, Phoenix, Commons and Semantics would be the leaders of the gang and every time they commented on something they would do a synchronized finger snap then smoke a cigarette.
As an aside, anyone else really, really pissed at WotC about Chimeric Mass?
Not as such, because the source of the potential confusion you describe here is not the card itself, it's the "layers" system.
Layers has survived both the 6th Ed and M10 rules changes, but one day they're going to have to revisit that area of the game and fix it, because right now it's awful.
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Agreed. Also, note that whilst Contagion Engine dies to Shatter it has often already done a lot by then.
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Makes the deck every time. Easy to build solid synergies around it.
i've tried to make this card work quite a bit since it looks good. every time i play with it it ends up being 6 mana for +2/+2. keeping 4 open to trigger its ability is extremely difficult to do. this card is bad due to its mana costs, not its abilities.
Darksteel Juggernaut is great, and Painful Quandry is unplayable IMO. Inexorable Tide is incredible in infect, and Prototype Portal is also very playable.
Inexorable Tide is a 5 mana enchantment that does nothing by itself. sometimes it will cause degenerate board states. just as often it is a blank. its inconsistency and do-nothingness are what gives it the bad rating.
Prototype Portal would be spectacular except for all the Shatters. in a different set it would be highly rated. in this set its very hard to use it without handing your opponent a blowout.
Painful Quandary could legitimately be demoted, but is at least a potential win condition in a very draw out match. I rated it merely bad because its possible to consider including it. Unplayable really means unplayable. as in, a 19th land would always be better.
I can't see etched champion being better than darksteel juggernaut, and nim deathmantle is playable. also, I think ezuri is one of the most overrated rares; this isn't lorwyn.
I knew alot of people would have issues with my rating of Darksteel Juggernaut. I would simply ask you to consider what the typical efficiency level for the card is. Compare it to Chrome Steed and ask yourself how often is Darksteel Juggernaut actually better. How about Ghalma's Warden. Almost never, and it costs an additional mana. You're probably over-rating indestructible by a huge amount. I should remind you that Revoke Existence, Arrest, Dispense Justice, Grasp of Darkness, and -1/-1 counters don't care about indestructible at all. And finally, the juggernaut has a must-attack drawback. Its a weak creature if ever I saw one.
I'm of the frame of mind that Contagion Engine is the best card in the set for limited, followed by Hoard-Smelter Dragon, Molten-Tail Masticore, and Elspeth. I'm a bit incredulous that 2 of those 4 are not in the top tier. I would also move Sword of Body and Mind up there. It's an automatic first pick out of every single pack it's in.
To say that Koth is better than Elspeth seems absolutely insane to me. Koth has absolutely no way of protecting himself and does very little to a board on which you find yourself behind. Elspeth can completely and irrevocably turn a game in your favor or almost instantly pull you incredibly far ahead.
I'm also not sold on Carnifex Demon being in that upper echelon. It's certainly very, very good, but the fact that it's heavy black yet not Infect knocks it down a peg.
Noted with Contagion Engine. I think I will be promoting this card. It is often Plague Wind for slightly less mana (well, spread over 2 turns anyway) and has significant synergy with alot of cards. It will be promoted. My notion of sick bomb has been that they are cards that are themselves win conditions but contagion engine is enough card advantage that it also basically guarantees a win. I will make an exception for it.
Regarding Elspeth, I would kindly suggest that you are badly over-rating this card. I've faced it 4 times in draft now and have beaten it every time with nothing more fearsome then regular creatures. The 1/1's it provides are not very impactful. As a board sweeper it is sometimes powerful. But sometimes not possible to use in that context anyway. And sometimes its awful. Last time I faced it I killed it with Galvanic Blast after it made some 1/1's. Very bad. Koth is a much better card in this format. It doesn't need to "protect itself", planeswalkers never do in limited. you are basically guaranteed to be running a whole lot of creatures and be able to block for it. Koth provides an attacker that is difficult to repel (4/4 is big in this format) and more importantly has an ultimate that wins the game by itself easily. Blocking for Koth for a couple of turns and then going ultimate is easy and is a guaranteed win.
Is Genesis Wave really unplayable? I haven't actually played it in limited yet and although I don't consider it a big bomb it seems solid if you have a slow enough deck. Is the format simply too fast?
Yes, it is unplayable. Genesis Wave is a constructed build-around card. If your deck can generate 9 mana relatively quickly it is a powerful spell. There are 0 draft decks that meet this criterion. Casting it for 5 or 6 mana is likely to result in the worst rampant-growth ever. thats about what you can expect from it in limited.
darksteel juggernaut: when I had him in a deck he was never smaller than 3/3, and was sometimes 5/5 or 6/6. it was always a good feeling to play an indestructible guy to block, then play another artifact next turn to make it bigger and attack. that said, I wouldn't play it if I had less than, say, 12 artifacts in my deck. it would also come out after game 1 if I'm playing against infect. juggernaut was always good in core set drafts, and this can be better than that was a lot of the time.
and yes, chrome steed is usually better, but if my deck had a lot of artifacts, like 15 or more, I can't think of single reason why I'd want to run a ghalma's warden before a darksteel juggernaut. both of them want a lot of artifacts and juggernaut gets better the more you have. where the warden would be a 4/6, the juggernaut would be at minimum a 4/4 indestructible. and I don't consider "attacks each turn if able" to be much of a drawback.
and I like how the "but it dies to removal" argument became more of a "but it dies to some removal".
Ive played against Elspeth 2x and its such an easy card to play against. Its not even "good" in most situations. Either youre winning or losing and this card wont do much. All the planeswalkers are pretty useless compared to previous incarnations. With Metalcraft, Ezuris Brigade is probably the strongest card in the set. 8/8 trampler is VERY hard to deal with. Played with an against it several times and its SICK. Several of the "Sick" Bombs you have listed arent that sick at all. The Regular bombs are okay but I mostly diagree with ur Solid and Unplayable rares. Deathmantle will ALWAYS make the cut. Mox Opal is a 0 costing Artifact. Its not bad but its not great either. Kuldotha Forgrmaster is Soild. Its a 3/5. Not many cards get passed that. Grand Architect is not Solid. Its a Regular Bomb if not a Sick Bomb. Ive played against it about 5x and lost all 5x. It has a relevant body and has relevant abilities. Its a VERY good card. Im not going to go over any more since I already have a lot listed.
Genesis Wave is solid. Elspeth is not even a regular bomb. I have literally only see it make 3 1/1's then die. It's pretty mediocre. I think mimic vat is a sick bomb.
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and yes, chrome steed is usually better, but if my deck had a lot of artifacts, like 15 or more, I can't think of single reason why I'd want to run a ghalma's warden before a darksteel juggernaut. both of them want a lot of artifacts and juggernaut gets better the more you have. where the warden would be a 4/6, the juggernaut would be at minimum a 4/4 indestructible. and I don't consider "attacks each turn if able" to be much of a drawback.
and I like how the "but it dies to removal" argument became more of a "but it dies to some removal".
Ghalma's Warden is a 2/4 on an empty board. thats an unexciting but still fine creature body. a Darksteel Juggernaut is a 1/1 in the same situation. thats a huge reason. i legitimately think you get better average performance from a cheaper common creature. every time Juggernaut would be decent (4/4 or bigger) basically every decent metalcraft creature is probably just a better card.
and yes, attacks every turn is a big drawback. if you're behind on the board and have to send in a puny 2/2 or 3/3 juggernaut in it is basically ineffectual and just leaves you vulnerable. its not a drawback if you're winning but is a drawback when you're behind. this puts it into "win more" territory. not a good place to be.
and yea, dies to removal is a valid argument. its always a valid argument. what must be considered on the balance is the cost and the potential reward. darksteel juggernaut has a high cost (5 mana and requires a particular board position) and gains only an unimpressive benefit in exchange. indestructibility is much less powerful in this environment than it typically is so the higher cost of juggernaut is not justified. you can get better performance from a cheaper creature.
Ghalma's Warden is a 2/4 on an empty board. thats an unexciting but still fine creature body. a Darksteel Juggernaut is a 1/1 in the same situation. thats a huge reason. i legitimately think you get better average performance from a cheaper common creature. every time Juggernaut would be decent (4/4 or bigger) basically every decent metalcraft creature is probably just a better card.
and yes, attacks every turn is a big drawback. if you're behind on the board and have to send in a puny 2/2 or 3/3 juggernaut in it is basically ineffectual and just leaves you vulnerable. its not a drawback if you're winning but is a drawback when you're behind. this puts it into "win more" territory. not a good place to be.
**snip**
does this mean you always passed juggernauts in M11 drafts (if you drafted that set)?
you're obviously not going to play this card if you don't run enough artifacts. if you're playing a deck that wants darksteel juggernaut, it's almost never going to be smaller than 3/3.
Quicksilver Gargantuan is awfully underrated as well. I've had it 3 or 4 times so far and have lost only match with it in my deck. 7/7 skinrenders/scrapmelters/hippogriffs are just so hard to deal with in this format (arrest? tumble magnet? certarch? flesh allergy?). 7 mana is up there, but with mana myr, it's easy to drop this guy on turn 5 or 6 and have it be an autowin. There's just not much to compete with it, so long as you don't copy an artifact creature (you can always just leave it as a 7/7 blue guy)
does this mean you always passed juggernauts in M11 drafts (if you drafted that set)?
you're obviously not going to play this card if you don't run enough artifacts. if you're playing a deck that wants darksteel juggernaut, it's almost never going to be smaller than 3/3.
why would you even make this comparison? its way off base.
Juggernaut is a 4 drop, not a 5 drop. its also always a 5/3 no matter what the board situation. it was also in a set with less removal and very weak synergies so its vanilla stats were relatively more impressive. i didn't pass very many Juggernauts in M11 because it was a good card in that environment. it would be a pretty good card in Scars as well. my point is that in the Scars environment Darksteel Juggernaut is pretty bad and particularly so by comparison to other metalcraft creatures. Comparing it to Juggernaut is pointless and irrelevant.
only because you're saying "attacks each turn if able" is a huge drawback, when it really isn't. the two cards are comparable in that respect.
and you keep talking about other metalcraft cards being "better" like I would be cutting those other cards to make room for this one. clearly I would be playing this and the others together.
ok, so whats the disagreement anyway? its on the "bad" list because if you open it as the rare in your pack you are very unlikely to take it. cards on the "bad" list are there because they are playable under the right circumstances but generally not great.
if you would like to argue that Darksteel Juggernaut should be pushed up to the "solid" list, can you say that it is at least as good as the worst card already on the solid list? in an earlier post I think you mentioned that you thought it was better than Etched Champion. I don't actually think it is, and if there's any change I'd be more inclined to move Etched Champion down to bad.
I dunno, maybe there should be a category named "playable" or "average" or something like that. while I agree that leonin arbiter and tunnel ignus are "bad", I don't think the juggernaut belongs in the same category those two and some other cards in there. but I guess that would be too many categories.
im sorry but elspeth is a BOMB. how are people saying she isnt... she single handily won the game for my opponent in sealed. 1st game he drew he was a little bit behind and it definitely helped him stabalize. 2nd game he was a little bit ahead and he dropped it and +2ed and i had to over extend for him to even use him -5 and it went downhill from there.
why no love for Venser? That guy is pretty damn good in this format. W/U creatures have some good CIP effects, he is really amazing. His ultimate is quite good as well. i got him and contagion engine out and it was retarded. plus he can reset attackers and make them blockers as well, also his second ability can push through stalls. recurring scrapmelter/contagion clasp is good times.
im sorry but elspeth is a BOMB. how are people saying she isnt... she single handily won the game for my opponent in sealed. 1st game he drew he was a little bit behind and it definitely helped him stabalize. 2nd game he was a little bit ahead and he dropped it and +2ed and i had to over extend for him to even use him -5 and it went downhill from there.
why no love for Venser? That guy is pretty damn good in this format. W/U creatures have some good CIP effects, he is really amazing. His ultimate is quite good as well. i got him and contagion engine out and it was retarded. plus he can reset attackers and make them blockers as well, also his second ability can push through stalls. recurring scrapmelter/contagion clasp is good times.
I've got them both rated as bombs in my list. There really aren't any commons or uncommons you would take over them and you'd only pass one if you're REALLY deep into an archetype commitment.
some people like these cards a bit less because they are not as immediately impactful as some of the more powerful bomb creatures. i think thats valid. of the two of them i think i like Venser better than Elspeth. its more color specific i suppose but color is easier than usual in this set so its not a big deal. Venser above all rewards tight play. its capable of alot of tricky plays that take a keen eye to find.
why no love for Venser? That guy is pretty damn good in this format. W/U creatures have some good CIP effects, he is really amazing. His ultimate is quite good as well. i got him and contagion engine out and it was retarded. plus he can reset attackers and make them blockers as well, also his second ability can push through stalls. recurring scrapmelter/contagion clasp is good times.
venser is a bomb too imo. i opened venser in the mocs sealed and even though i drew him only 3 times... each time he basically won me the game. 2 times he won me the game just with his unblockability. then the other i was behind... and his +2 helped in so many ways... removing arrests, putting counters back on trigon, bringing back griffins to get artifact... and ya.. i was really behind his deck was the nuts and his pool definitely was better than mine but venser alone got me there and i got to use his ultimate... and well.... ultimately it won me the game =).
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my classification system is not a strict number ranking, because every card performs differently in different situations. just broad categories that represent approximately how powerful a card usually is. I expect most of the controversy will be in what is a Sick Bomb vs. Regular Bomb. in my mind a sick bomb is a card that easily wins the game by itself in a small number of turns (unless removed of course). A regular bomb is a card that greatly increases your chances of winning the game but its impact either takes longer or is lesser than a Sick Bomb.
Sick Bomb
Geth, Lord of the Vault
Molten-Tail Masticore
Skithyrx, the Blight Dragon
Wurmcoil Engine
Carnifex Demon
Contagion Engine
Hoard-Smelter Dragon
Steel Hellkite
Sunblast Angel
Regular Bomb
Elspeth Tirel
Koth of the Hammer
Sword of Body and Mind
Venser, the Sojourner
Argent Sphinx (note: only in metalcraft, just solid elsewhere)
Ezuri's Brigade (note: only in metalcraft, just solid elsewhere)
Kuldotha Phoenix (note: only in metalcraft, just solid elsewhere)
Mimic Vat
Myr Battlesphere
Precursor Golem
Strata Scythe
Tempered Steel
True Conviction
Solid
Indomitable Archangel
Mindslaver
Asceticism
Cerebral Eruption
Chimeric Mass
Engulfing Slagwurm
Ezuri, Renegade Leader
Grand Architect
Hand of the Praetors (note: only in infect, obviously)
Kemba, Kha Regent
Kuldotha Forgemaster
Livewire Lash
Necrotic Ooze
Putrefax (note: only in infect, obviously)
Ratchet Bomb (exception: much worse in some mana curves)
Spikeshot Elder (exception: much better with some equipment)
Playable
Liege of the Tangle
Lux Cannon (exception: much better with proliferate)
Mox Opal
Platinum Emperion
Quicksilver Gargantuan
Argentum Armor
Darksteel Juggernaut
Etched Champion
Grindclock (exception: much better with proliferate)
Inexorable Tide
Leonin Arbiter
Myr Propagator
Myr Reservoir
Nim Deathmantle
Painful Quandary
Prototype Portal
Tower of Calamities
Tunnel Ignus
Unplayable
Dissipation Field
Genesis Wave
Memoricide (exception: possible to play out of sideboard)
Molten Psyche
Semblance Anvil
Shape Anew
Venser's Journal
To say that Koth is better than Elspeth seems absolutely insane to me. Koth has absolutely no way of protecting himself and does very little to a board on which you find yourself behind. Elspeth can completely and irrevocably turn a game in your favor or almost instantly pull you incredibly far ahead.
I'm also not sold on Carnifex Demon being in that upper echelon. It's certainly very, very good, but the fact that it's heavy black yet not Infect knocks it down a peg.
:dance:Fact or Fiction of the [Limited] Clan:dance:
How? 3 1/1's is really not that insane. If you can sit behind the 1/1's for 3 turns until you can set up the ultmate she is good, or if you can set up the ultimate right away by just going for lifegain into ultimate, but if you are in a position to do that then you probably have about an equal number or a greater number of creatures than the opponent, and you wouldn't want to ultimate anyway. Yeah she provides blockers for herself, but her ability is much less powerful than Koth's because it does not apply very much pressure, and her ultimate is not a near auto-win like Koth's is.
My main point is that I don't see Elspeth doing that much for you when you are behind, unless your opponent has a sea of Tel-Jilad Fallen. A couple 2/2's or any creature with evasion easily gets past the tokens to smack her.
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The average size of creatures in this format is very unimpressive. Additionally, if the argument against Elspeth is that evasion can just fly over the tokens, then you seem to be forgetting that white has some very playable fliers of its own that could easily come out before you play the Elspeth, including Glint Hawk, Glint Hawk Idol, Kemba's Skyguard, and Razor Hippogriff. It seems as though the majority of your argument against her focuses on how well she can be a single-handed weapon that pulls an empty board into a win. That's not at all what I said. I said she can pull you out from trouble, which she very often can, certainly moreso than Koth, who is more highly rated in the OP's hierarchy.
Very seldom in this format do you find board states on which one player has absolutely nothing and the other is swarming. In the few cases when this does happen, only Sunblast Angel can really flip the board completely around in one fell swoop. Mostly, the board states in SoM are populated and complicated (that was by far the norm at the PTQ I attended yesterday), which is exactly the type of norm in which a board control card like Elspeth can truly dominate. At the PTQ, I saw about 5 games in which Elspeth resolved on the board. She won every single one of those games for her controller (she was under a Volition Reins in one game, so the opponent rode her to victory).
The point is that she is an enormous, board-altering presence that has more versatility than Koth and has the ability to protect both herself and you, which is usually her purpose. She is not really an offensive threat; her primary role is board control, and there are maybe one or two other cards in the set that can do the work she can in this regard.
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I don't think colour is being considered here.
Carnifex Demon is great partly due to being immune to artifact removal. Steel Hellkite is weak by comparison simply because it is immediately removed such a high proportion of the time (empirically, around 50% in Sealed, not sure about Draft).
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Now print cards that are easy to use. Chimeric mass with 6 charge counters and 4 -1/-1 counters on it is not intuitive. Switch "Charge" to "+1/+1" and it becomes VERY easy (it has 2 counters).
Not as such, because the source of the potential confusion you describe here is not the card itself, it's the "layers" system.
Layers has survived both the 6th Ed and M10 rules changes, but one day they're going to have to revisit that area of the game and fix it, because right now it's awful.
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Forum Awards: Best Writer 2005, Best Limited Strategist 2005-2012
5CB PotM - June 2005, November 2005, February 2006, April 2008, May 2008, Feb 2009
MTGSalvation Articles: 1-20, plus guest appearance on MTGCast #86!
<Limited Clan>
(I'm on on this site much anymore. If you want to get in touch it's probably best to email me: dom@heffalumps.org)
Forum Awards: Best Writer 2005, Best Limited Strategist 2005-2012
5CB PotM - June 2005, November 2005, February 2006, April 2008, May 2008, Feb 2009
MTGSalvation Articles: 1-20, plus guest appearance on MTGCast #86!
<Limited Clan>
i've tried to make this card work quite a bit since it looks good. every time i play with it it ends up being 6 mana for +2/+2. keeping 4 open to trigger its ability is extremely difficult to do. this card is bad due to its mana costs, not its abilities.
Inexorable Tide is a 5 mana enchantment that does nothing by itself. sometimes it will cause degenerate board states. just as often it is a blank. its inconsistency and do-nothingness are what gives it the bad rating.
Prototype Portal would be spectacular except for all the Shatters. in a different set it would be highly rated. in this set its very hard to use it without handing your opponent a blowout.
Painful Quandary could legitimately be demoted, but is at least a potential win condition in a very draw out match. I rated it merely bad because its possible to consider including it. Unplayable really means unplayable. as in, a 19th land would always be better.
I knew alot of people would have issues with my rating of Darksteel Juggernaut. I would simply ask you to consider what the typical efficiency level for the card is. Compare it to Chrome Steed and ask yourself how often is Darksteel Juggernaut actually better. How about Ghalma's Warden. Almost never, and it costs an additional mana. You're probably over-rating indestructible by a huge amount. I should remind you that Revoke Existence, Arrest, Dispense Justice, Grasp of Darkness, and -1/-1 counters don't care about indestructible at all. And finally, the juggernaut has a must-attack drawback. Its a weak creature if ever I saw one.
Noted with Contagion Engine. I think I will be promoting this card. It is often Plague Wind for slightly less mana (well, spread over 2 turns anyway) and has significant synergy with alot of cards. It will be promoted. My notion of sick bomb has been that they are cards that are themselves win conditions but contagion engine is enough card advantage that it also basically guarantees a win. I will make an exception for it.
Regarding Elspeth, I would kindly suggest that you are badly over-rating this card. I've faced it 4 times in draft now and have beaten it every time with nothing more fearsome then regular creatures. The 1/1's it provides are not very impactful. As a board sweeper it is sometimes powerful. But sometimes not possible to use in that context anyway. And sometimes its awful. Last time I faced it I killed it with Galvanic Blast after it made some 1/1's. Very bad. Koth is a much better card in this format. It doesn't need to "protect itself", planeswalkers never do in limited. you are basically guaranteed to be running a whole lot of creatures and be able to block for it. Koth provides an attacker that is difficult to repel (4/4 is big in this format) and more importantly has an ultimate that wins the game by itself easily. Blocking for Koth for a couple of turns and then going ultimate is easy and is a guaranteed win.
Yes, it is unplayable. Genesis Wave is a constructed build-around card. If your deck can generate 9 mana relatively quickly it is a powerful spell. There are 0 draft decks that meet this criterion. Casting it for 5 or 6 mana is likely to result in the worst rampant-growth ever. thats about what you can expect from it in limited.
and yes, chrome steed is usually better, but if my deck had a lot of artifacts, like 15 or more, I can't think of single reason why I'd want to run a ghalma's warden before a darksteel juggernaut. both of them want a lot of artifacts and juggernaut gets better the more you have. where the warden would be a 4/6, the juggernaut would be at minimum a 4/4 indestructible. and I don't consider "attacks each turn if able" to be much of a drawback.
and I like how the "but it dies to removal" argument became more of a "but it dies to some removal".
1800+ in Limited
3-0ing after drafting 17 non-basics in Cube
Ghalma's Warden is a 2/4 on an empty board. thats an unexciting but still fine creature body. a Darksteel Juggernaut is a 1/1 in the same situation. thats a huge reason. i legitimately think you get better average performance from a cheaper common creature. every time Juggernaut would be decent (4/4 or bigger) basically every decent metalcraft creature is probably just a better card.
and yes, attacks every turn is a big drawback. if you're behind on the board and have to send in a puny 2/2 or 3/3 juggernaut in it is basically ineffectual and just leaves you vulnerable. its not a drawback if you're winning but is a drawback when you're behind. this puts it into "win more" territory. not a good place to be.
and yea, dies to removal is a valid argument. its always a valid argument. what must be considered on the balance is the cost and the potential reward. darksteel juggernaut has a high cost (5 mana and requires a particular board position) and gains only an unimpressive benefit in exchange. indestructibility is much less powerful in this environment than it typically is so the higher cost of juggernaut is not justified. you can get better performance from a cheaper creature.
does this mean you always passed juggernauts in M11 drafts (if you drafted that set)?
you're obviously not going to play this card if you don't run enough artifacts. if you're playing a deck that wants darksteel juggernaut, it's almost never going to be smaller than 3/3.
why would you even make this comparison? its way off base.
Juggernaut is a 4 drop, not a 5 drop. its also always a 5/3 no matter what the board situation. it was also in a set with less removal and very weak synergies so its vanilla stats were relatively more impressive. i didn't pass very many Juggernauts in M11 because it was a good card in that environment. it would be a pretty good card in Scars as well. my point is that in the Scars environment Darksteel Juggernaut is pretty bad and particularly so by comparison to other metalcraft creatures. Comparing it to Juggernaut is pointless and irrelevant.
only because you're saying "attacks each turn if able" is a huge drawback, when it really isn't. the two cards are comparable in that respect.
and you keep talking about other metalcraft cards being "better" like I would be cutting those other cards to make room for this one. clearly I would be playing this and the others together.
if you would like to argue that Darksteel Juggernaut should be pushed up to the "solid" list, can you say that it is at least as good as the worst card already on the solid list? in an earlier post I think you mentioned that you thought it was better than Etched Champion. I don't actually think it is, and if there's any change I'd be more inclined to move Etched Champion down to bad.
I've got them both rated as bombs in my list. There really aren't any commons or uncommons you would take over them and you'd only pass one if you're REALLY deep into an archetype commitment.
some people like these cards a bit less because they are not as immediately impactful as some of the more powerful bomb creatures. i think thats valid. of the two of them i think i like Venser better than Elspeth. its more color specific i suppose but color is easier than usual in this set so its not a big deal. Venser above all rewards tight play. its capable of alot of tricky plays that take a keen eye to find.
venser is a bomb too imo. i opened venser in the mocs sealed and even though i drew him only 3 times... each time he basically won me the game. 2 times he won me the game just with his unblockability. then the other i was behind... and his +2 helped in so many ways... removing arrests, putting counters back on trigon, bringing back griffins to get artifact... and ya.. i was really behind his deck was the nuts and his pool definitely was better than mine but venser alone got me there and i got to use his ultimate... and well.... ultimately it won me the game =).