I just don't see armorsmith as good enough to take 2nd pick, even if I'm forcing soldiers. Ability to force soldiers will be revealed as I see what's passed over next few turns.
I'd take the bolt now. Just too big a power differential between the armorsmith and bolt.
I think pacifism or blinding mage are the only white commons i would take over lightning bolt had they been in that pack. That said, i would understand if you were feeling quirky and tried to force soldiers. Doing things like that usually ends up with a fun deck that has a good chance of winning (or an awful deck when you have to completely change startegies halfway through pack 2).
It ended up being decent only on the principle that I know how to draft in general. The armorsmith not so hot, swordsmith was good and easier to play. I ended up beating the UB guy with Time warp, Sleep and Lilianna Vess.... not a fun matchup btw. And then accidently condeding the match to my round 2 opp instead of the game. Happens when you are learning to play magic online... i guess
Elvish Archdruid, without a doubt. They're worth half the draft here.
Otherwise, the swordsmith. I like being open with my second color late.
Taking Lightning Bolt doesn't leave you any less open than taking the Armorsmith (which is I think what you meant to type). The Bolt can easily be splashed in most two-color decks. In fact, going with the WW-cost of Armorsmith makes it harder to find a good complementary color because of the commitment you have just made to W.
Pack 1 pick 1, I'd take Pacifism, Blinding Mage, Doom Blade, and Merfolk Looter above bolt (edit: As commons). Red is just such a bad color.
In this case though, nothing in the pack is near as good as lightning bolt. There's just no excuse for passing it, especially since you passed no red worth mentioning in pack 1. You can always drop the color, and a WW 2/3 is just not worth the effort - he's frequently mediocre anyway.
If this forum had Greasers, Phoenix, Commons and Semantics would be the leaders of the gang and every time they commented on something they would do a synchronized finger snap then smoke a cigarette.
Taking Lightning Bolt doesn't leave you any less open than taking the Armorsmith (which is I think what you meant to type). The Bolt can easily be splashed in most two-color decks. In fact, going with the WW-cost of Armorsmith makes it harder to find a good complementary color because of the commitment you have just made to W.
Not true. Having 1 color after 2 picks leaves one more open than having 2 colors after 2 picks. This, my friend, is a universal drafting fact. Splashing is not that easy in this format if you're not in green.
Personally I would lean towards sticking with 1 color for now and hoping I get a clear signal in one of the next few picks. Either way, the pick is close.
The only other two card names I can remember that were this prone to confusion in the same set was Rebel Informer and Mercenary Informer in Prophecy (black and white respectively, not white and black as you might think), which were thankfully rare. But I can imagine some other gnashing of teeth from confusing Stronghold Machinist and Stronghold Biologist, a Negate spellshaper and an Essence Scatter spellshaper with the same p/t and mana cost and art cropped from the same piece.
These guys at common is interesting, but occasionally really annoying for some of us less careful players (I punted a game at GP Boston by attacking White Knight and a flyer into an Armorsmith I thought was a Swordsmith). Maybe I just suck... but this isn't the only thread where this has happened IIRC.
Not true. Having 1 color after 2 picks leaves one more open than having 2 colors after 2 picks. This, my friend, is a universal drafting fact. Splashing is not that easy in this format if you're not in green.
Personally I would lean towards sticking with 1 color for now and hoping I get a clear signal in one of the next few picks. Either way, the pick is close.
This, my friend, is NOT a universal drafting fact. It depends upon many factors, not the least of which is the amount of colored mana symbols in the two cards drafted. I doubt anyone would argue that you are "more open" after drafting double Ball Lightning than after drafting Fireball and Stampeding Rhino.
Splashing may not be easy, but for one colored mana, it isn't really that hard either, especially when you know you have 43 more picks with which to draft fixers .
This, my friend, is NOT a universal drafting fact. It depends upon many factors, not the least of which is the amount of colored mana symbols in the two cards drafted. I doubt anyone would argue that you are "more open" after drafting double Ball Lightning than after drafting Fireball and Stampeding Rhino.
Splashing may not be easy, but for one colored mana, it isn't really that hard either, especially when you know you have 43 more picks with which to draft fixers .
How about we stick to the cards in discussion right now, instead of making up triple red creatures that were not part of the draft.
On one hand we have Captain and Armorsmith. On the other we have Captain and Bolt. Using the actual examples, which pile leaves you more open?
I would rather play a 2 color deck than a 3 color one if I'm not in green. Even if I'm splashing for 1 color. 7-7-3 and 8-7-2 manabases are weaker than 9-8 or 10-7 manabases.
Also your 43 more card argument is weak. Everyone gets 43 more cards. The number of cards you get the remainder of the draft does not influence the first 2 picks. Do you take 5 cards in 5 different colors because you have 40 more picks to go?
How about we stick to the cards in discussion right now, instead of making up triple red creatures that were not part of the draft.
On one hand we have Captain and Armorsmith. On the other we have Captain and Bolt. Using the actual examples, which pile leaves you more open?
I would rather play a 2 color deck than a 3 color one if I'm not in green. Even if I'm splashing for 1 color. 7-7-3 and 8-7-2 manabases are weaker than 9-8 or 10-7 manabases.
Also your 43 more card argument is weak. Everyone gets 43 more cards. The number of cards you get the remainder of the draft does not influence the first 2 picks. Do you take 5 cards in 5 different colors because you have 40 more picks to go?
I was using an example from outside of the discussion to better illustrate the point that "open-ness" in a draft is relative to more than just the number of colors in your draft pile. In this way, the Ball Lightning example was perfectly relevant, whether or not it came up in the draft.
My point still stands. I would argue that you are more open after drafting the Lightning Bolt.
If you draft the Armorsmith, you have committed, very early on, to a heavy white deck, primarily consisting of cheap ground-pounders (specifically soldiers). Sure, you technically can supplement this with any other color, but you are limiting the effectiveness of those colors. I wouldn't advise going into black; Tendrils, Consume Spirit, and any other swamp-needing cards will be compromised by your heavy plains requirements. Also, Sign in Blood and Black Knight, two great cards for black in a weenie deck, are virtually impossible to run in said build. Likewise, you will run into problems with any color-heavy picks in a secondary color from here on out.
If you draft the Lightning Bolt, you can go into pretty much any color, even
with color-heavy requirements, because Captain of the Watch is a late-game play, and the Lightning Bolt is useful at any stage in the game AND costs only one colored mana. Additionally, if your secondary color ends up being red, Lightning Bolt is tons better than Armorsmith.
IMHO, it is quite close. I lean toward the Armorsmith, primarily because I'm actively staying away from red like the plague ATM. It's stupidly overdrafted, esp in the bad queues. Also I'm convinced that WR sucks the big one, despite many people suggesting otherwise. Honestly, I have never, in my entire history of drafting M10, lost a match to a WR deck.
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I was using an example from outside of the discussion to better illustrate the point that "open-ness" in a draft is relative to more than just the number of colors in your draft pile. In this way, the Ball Lightning example was perfectly relevant, whether or not it came up in the draft.
My point still stands. I would argue that you are more open after drafting the Lightning Bolt.
If you draft the Armorsmith, you have committed, very early on, to a heavy white deck, primarily consisting of cheap ground-pounders (specifically soldiers). Sure, you technically can supplement this with any other color, but you are limiting the effectiveness of those colors. I wouldn't advise going into black; Tendrils, Consume Spirit, and any other swamp-needing cards will be compromised by your heavy plains requirements. Also, Sign in Blood and Black Knight, two great cards for black in a weenie deck, are virtually impossible to run in said build. Likewise, you will run into problems with any color-heavy picks in a secondary color from here on out.
If you draft the Lightning Bolt, you can go into pretty much any color, even with color-heavy requirements, because Captain of the Watch is a late-game play, and the Lightning Bolt is useful at any stage in the game AND costs only one colored mana. Additionally, if your secondary color ends up being red, Lightning Bolt is tons better than Armorsmith.
I'm simply arguing for the openness of the pick, I'm not saying one pick is right. Honestly I think it's more of a preference pick.
If you take 2 white cards in your first 2 picks, you're open to essentially five 2-color combinations.
If you take a white card first pick and a red card second pick, you're open to a single 2-color combination. (This is unless you abandon one of your picks later on.) You can also splash, but I find splash deck weaker than 2-color decks if you're not in green.
Taking a second color doesn't leave you more open. You can take the Bolt for other reasons, but leaving yourself more open is not one of them.
I would take the Lightning Bolt because of the following reasons:
It's still relatively early and WW is a huge commitment for color.
Bolt is splashable.
Bolt is good early and late game.
You will most likely see other Armorsmiths passed to you.
You will most likely not see more Lightning Bolts passed to you.
Nothing in this game is degenerate or completely dominant. They haven't banned anything in standard in a long, long time. Hell they should have banned affinity right away, but they didn't until boxed sales collapsed too. Hasbro had to come in and fire people.
I'll enjoy watching all the whiners eat crow monday.
I'm simply arguing for the openness of the pick, I'm not saying one pick is right. Honestly I think it's more of a preference pick.
I agree. It's preference pick. Some people like to stay on color with the bomb card they open with a solid but unexciting card like Armorsmith. Let's call this strategy #1.
But I'm in the camp that takes the best cards with the early picks unless there is an on color card that's not that much better than the best off color card. Let's call this strategy #2.
Therefore, I would take Lightning Bolt since it is miles better than Armorsmith. However, if Armorsmith was instead Divine Verdict, I would take Divine Verdict. Lightning Bolt is better than Divine Verdict but not that much better.
In my experience, I've had higher quality deck by following strategy #2.
IMHO, it is quite close. I lean toward the Armorsmith, primarily because I'm actively staying away from red like the plague ATM. It's stupidly overdrafted, esp in the bad queues. Also I'm convinced that WR sucks the big one, despite many people suggesting otherwise. Honestly, I have never, in my entire history of drafting M10, lost a match to a WR deck.
This is interesting because I've drafted red a lot and found it to be solid. Although I haven't seen it overdrafted too much.
On paper red looks really bad and I would never force the color. But it does have solid cards especially in the uncommons and rares. And uncommons and rares show up more often than in past draft formats because of the mythic rare.
And even if you're not seeing a lot of good red cards, it can still be a solid splash (7 or less cards).
The last deck I drafted had 7 Mountains and the following 6 red cards.
The Inferno Elementals were great since I had Gorgon Flail.
Also, I opened a Fireball in pack three but I thought my deck was solid enough so I raredrafted Vampire Nocturnus that I could actually play since I was B/r. Probably too greedy of a move but it worked out since the only match I lost, I would've still lost even if I picked Fireball instead.
I'm simply arguing for the openness of the pick, I'm not saying one pick is right. Honestly I think it's more of a preference pick.
If you take 2 white cards in your first 2 picks, you're open to essentially five 2-color combinations.
If you take a white card first pick and a red card second pick, you're open to a single 2-color combination. (This is unless you abandon one of your picks later on.) You can also splash, but I find splash deck weaker than 2-color decks if you're not in green.
Taking a second color doesn't leave you more open. You can take the Bolt for other reasons, but leaving yourself more open is not one of them.
Picking Veteran Armorsmithdoes not leave you more open. As my example with a white/black deck showed, picking the Armorsmith actually lowers the quality of at least one of the two-color combinations (and possibly others as well). If you pick the Lightning Bolt, you are still open to all five of the two-color combinations, because Captain of the Watch is a late game card and Lightning Bolt is equally good in the late game, meaning that your color commitment in white and red are not significant enough to disallow a secondary main color.
You are oversimplifying the situation by pointing out that "you take a white card first pick and a red card second pick". The total casting cost and the specific colors required in the casting cost have a huge impact upon how playable they are within a certain deck. The Armorsmith is less playable in a two-color deck than Bolt is in a two-color deck + splash. Therefore, you are more likely to actually sleeve up your first two picks if you take the Bolt than if you take the Armorsmith.
Taking a second color surely can leave you more open (imagine the situation if the pick were a Rampant Growth as opposed to Lightning Bolt) and the qualitative difference between Lightning Bolt and Veteran Armorsmith is not the only reason to take the Bolt - leaving yourself open is as well.
The Armorsmith is less playable in a two-color deck than Bolt is in a two-color deck + splash.
I disagree. Let's say you have a 9/8 mana base. Armorsmith is much more playable than a splashed Bolt in a 8/7/2 mana base.
Splashing is pretty bad in M10 unless you're playing green. Not only does it make your deck less stable but there are many good cards than don't play well in a splash mana base like
Seismic Strike
Tendrils
Howl of the Night Pack
Consume Spirit
Armored Ascension
Looming Shade
Fiery Hellhound
Plus, there are many double casting cost cards. For example, if I have 2 Serra Angel, 2 Veteran Armorsmith, 2 Sign in Blood, Howling Banshee, and Dread Warlock, I don't want to play an 8/7/2 mana base just to splash a Bolt. So, splashing Bolt is often not a sure thing, because many decks will end up having a couple double casting cost cards in both of their main colors.
Bolt is fine and all BUT Black is probably the best color in M10 draft and a good removal spell in the best color is going to be better than a higher quality card in the worst color. You can splash either just fine of a single expanse and a land. I'd splash assassinate.
Armorsmith? First of all he's kind weak for a 2nd pick second of all he commits to a base white deck on the 2nd pick. Bolt and Assassinate are both much better IMO.
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Pack 1 pick 1:
Sign in Blood
Coral Merfolk
Indestructibility (FOIL)
Pacifism
Shatter
Jump
Solemn Offering
Raging Goblin
Terramorphic Expanse
Unholy Strength
Cudgel Troll
Consume Spirit
Undead Slayer
--> Captain of the Watch
Island
Pack 1 pick 2:
Siege Mastodon
Assassinate
Viashino Spearhunter
Unsummon
Veteran Armorsmith
Giant Growth
Silvercoat Lion
Coral Merfolk
Lightning Bolt
Spellbook
Megrim
Inferno Elemental
Elvish Archdruid
Forest
Hey guys I went first pick Captain and then get passed the second pack and was wondering where you would have gone.
I'd take the bolt now. Just too big a power differential between the armorsmith and bolt.
Otherwise, the swordsmith. I like being open with my second color late.
Herbal_Poultice_Deck_Wins
Rules Advisor
Taking Lightning Bolt doesn't leave you any less open than taking the Armorsmith (which is I think what you meant to type). The Bolt can easily be splashed in most two-color decks. In fact, going with the WW-cost of Armorsmith makes it harder to find a good complementary color because of the commitment you have just made to W.
Edit: fail. I had just read the comment above and it said swordsmith. My bad.
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In this case though, nothing in the pack is near as good as lightning bolt. There's just no excuse for passing it, especially since you passed no red worth mentioning in pack 1. You can always drop the color, and a WW 2/3 is just not worth the effort - he's frequently mediocre anyway.
...ahem...
Not true. Having 1 color after 2 picks leaves one more open than having 2 colors after 2 picks. This, my friend, is a universal drafting fact. Splashing is not that easy in this format if you're not in green.
Personally I would lean towards sticking with 1 color for now and hoping I get a clear signal in one of the next few picks. Either way, the pick is close.
The only other two card names I can remember that were this prone to confusion in the same set was Rebel Informer and Mercenary Informer in Prophecy (black and white respectively, not white and black as you might think), which were thankfully rare. But I can imagine some other gnashing of teeth from confusing Stronghold Machinist and Stronghold Biologist, a Negate spellshaper and an Essence Scatter spellshaper with the same p/t and mana cost and art cropped from the same piece.
These guys at common is interesting, but occasionally really annoying for some of us less careful players (I punted a game at GP Boston by attacking White Knight and a flyer into an Armorsmith I thought was a Swordsmith). Maybe I just suck... but this isn't the only thread where this has happened IIRC.
This, my friend, is NOT a universal drafting fact. It depends upon many factors, not the least of which is the amount of colored mana symbols in the two cards drafted. I doubt anyone would argue that you are "more open" after drafting double Ball Lightning than after drafting Fireball and Stampeding Rhino.
Splashing may not be easy, but for one colored mana, it isn't really that hard either, especially when you know you have 43 more picks with which to draft fixers .
tendrils on a baneslayer feels that awesome.
How about we stick to the cards in discussion right now, instead of making up triple red creatures that were not part of the draft.
On one hand we have Captain and Armorsmith. On the other we have Captain and Bolt. Using the actual examples, which pile leaves you more open?
I would rather play a 2 color deck than a 3 color one if I'm not in green. Even if I'm splashing for 1 color. 7-7-3 and 8-7-2 manabases are weaker than 9-8 or 10-7 manabases.
Also your 43 more card argument is weak. Everyone gets 43 more cards. The number of cards you get the remainder of the draft does not influence the first 2 picks. Do you take 5 cards in 5 different colors because you have 40 more picks to go?
I was using an example from outside of the discussion to better illustrate the point that "open-ness" in a draft is relative to more than just the number of colors in your draft pile. In this way, the Ball Lightning example was perfectly relevant, whether or not it came up in the draft.
My point still stands. I would argue that you are more open after drafting the Lightning Bolt.
If you draft the Armorsmith, you have committed, very early on, to a heavy white deck, primarily consisting of cheap ground-pounders (specifically soldiers). Sure, you technically can supplement this with any other color, but you are limiting the effectiveness of those colors. I wouldn't advise going into black; Tendrils, Consume Spirit, and any other swamp-needing cards will be compromised by your heavy plains requirements. Also, Sign in Blood and Black Knight, two great cards for black in a weenie deck, are virtually impossible to run in said build. Likewise, you will run into problems with any color-heavy picks in a secondary color from here on out.
If you draft the Lightning Bolt, you can go into pretty much any color, even
with color-heavy requirements, because Captain of the Watch is a late-game play, and the Lightning Bolt is useful at any stage in the game AND costs only one colored mana. Additionally, if your secondary color ends up being red, Lightning Bolt is tons better than Armorsmith.
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I'm simply arguing for the openness of the pick, I'm not saying one pick is right. Honestly I think it's more of a preference pick.
If you take 2 white cards in your first 2 picks, you're open to essentially five 2-color combinations.
If you take a white card first pick and a red card second pick, you're open to a single 2-color combination. (This is unless you abandon one of your picks later on.) You can also splash, but I find splash deck weaker than 2-color decks if you're not in green.
Taking a second color doesn't leave you more open. You can take the Bolt for other reasons, but leaving yourself more open is not one of them.
It's still relatively early and WW is a huge commitment for color.
Bolt is splashable.
Bolt is good early and late game.
You will most likely see other Armorsmiths passed to you.
You will most likely not see more Lightning Bolts passed to you.
Who's eating crow?
I agree. It's preference pick. Some people like to stay on color with the bomb card they open with a solid but unexciting card like Armorsmith. Let's call this strategy #1.
But I'm in the camp that takes the best cards with the early picks unless there is an on color card that's not that much better than the best off color card. Let's call this strategy #2.
Therefore, I would take Lightning Bolt since it is miles better than Armorsmith. However, if Armorsmith was instead Divine Verdict, I would take Divine Verdict. Lightning Bolt is better than Divine Verdict but not that much better.
In my experience, I've had higher quality deck by following strategy #2.
This is interesting because I've drafted red a lot and found it to be solid. Although I haven't seen it overdrafted too much.
On paper red looks really bad and I would never force the color. But it does have solid cards especially in the uncommons and rares. And uncommons and rares show up more often than in past draft formats because of the mythic rare.
And even if you're not seeing a lot of good red cards, it can still be a solid splash (7 or less cards).
The last deck I drafted had 7 Mountains and the following 6 red cards.
1 Goblin Artillery
2 Viashino Spearhunter
1 Siege-Gang Commander
2 Inferno Elemental
The Inferno Elementals were great since I had Gorgon Flail.
Also, I opened a Fireball in pack three but I thought my deck was solid enough so I raredrafted Vampire Nocturnus that I could actually play since I was B/r. Probably too greedy of a move but it worked out since the only match I lost, I would've still lost even if I picked Fireball instead.
Picking Veteran Armorsmith does not leave you more open. As my example with a white/black deck showed, picking the Armorsmith actually lowers the quality of at least one of the two-color combinations (and possibly others as well). If you pick the Lightning Bolt, you are still open to all five of the two-color combinations, because Captain of the Watch is a late game card and Lightning Bolt is equally good in the late game, meaning that your color commitment in white and red are not significant enough to disallow a secondary main color.
You are oversimplifying the situation by pointing out that "you take a white card first pick and a red card second pick". The total casting cost and the specific colors required in the casting cost have a huge impact upon how playable they are within a certain deck. The Armorsmith is less playable in a two-color deck than Bolt is in a two-color deck + splash. Therefore, you are more likely to actually sleeve up your first two picks if you take the Bolt than if you take the Armorsmith.
Taking a second color surely can leave you more open (imagine the situation if the pick were a Rampant Growth as opposed to Lightning Bolt) and the qualitative difference between Lightning Bolt and Veteran Armorsmith is not the only reason to take the Bolt - leaving yourself open is as well.
I disagree. Let's say you have a 9/8 mana base. Armorsmith is much more playable than a splashed Bolt in a 8/7/2 mana base.
Splashing is pretty bad in M10 unless you're playing green. Not only does it make your deck less stable but there are many good cards than don't play well in a splash mana base like
Seismic Strike
Tendrils
Howl of the Night Pack
Consume Spirit
Armored Ascension
Looming Shade
Fiery Hellhound
Plus, there are many double casting cost cards. For example, if I have 2 Serra Angel, 2 Veteran Armorsmith, 2 Sign in Blood, Howling Banshee, and Dread Warlock, I don't want to play an 8/7/2 mana base just to splash a Bolt. So, splashing Bolt is often not a sure thing, because many decks will end up having a couple double casting cost cards in both of their main colors.
Bolt is fine and all BUT Black is probably the best color in M10 draft and a good removal spell in the best color is going to be better than a higher quality card in the worst color. You can splash either just fine of a single expanse and a land. I'd splash assassinate.
Armorsmith? First of all he's kind weak for a 2nd pick second of all he commits to a base white deck on the 2nd pick. Bolt and Assassinate are both much better IMO.