But how do you actually turn these clearly amazing cards into a winning deck ?
What scoreline would you expect from this pool (release leagues are five matches) ?
Hint: It's clearly possible to do better with it than I did. Expecting 4-1 or maybe 5-0 I went 2-3. Having now played numerous tiebreakers it's become clear I wasn't particularly unlucky, I just built a mediocre deck !
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Forum Awards: Best Writer 2005, Best Limited Strategist 2005-2012
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MTGSalvation Articles: 1-20, plus guest appearance on MTGCast #86!
<Limited Clan>
Y'see my initial evaluation was that it was a stupid, broken bomb and had to be played. As such, my deck was GRb with the splash being for Ichor Slick (which is why it's amongst the Green cards - oops).
And sure enough I won some ridiculous games with the Scourge. On one occasion I untapped with it in play and killed a Baloth, a Fomori Nomad and a Might Sliver. On another occasion I killed four creatures including a face down Morph on the same turn I cast it (yup, manaflood).
But many of my losses were to a woeful lack of early game.
I even lost to a dude who assembled Bloodshot Trainee plus Flowstone Embrace in two consecutive games and had Might of Krosa against my Orcish Cannonade.
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5CB PotM - June 2005, November 2005, February 2006, April 2008, May 2008, Feb 2009
MTGSalvation Articles: 1-20, plus guest appearance on MTGCast #86!
<Limited Clan>
You might be interested to know that you have my list card for card apart from a single difference: I had Zoetic Cavern in place of your Thick-Skinned Goblin to help with reaching eight mana.
I also had 9/7/1 mana during the first three rounds, before deciding that I wanted to improve my chances of an early Cannonade.
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Forum Awards: Best Writer 2005, Best Limited Strategist 2005-2012
5CB PotM - June 2005, November 2005, February 2006, April 2008, May 2008, Feb 2009
MTGSalvation Articles: 1-20, plus guest appearance on MTGCast #86!
<Limited Clan>
Im surprised Boldwyr Intimidator isnt being used in the 2 decks you guys made. While it costs alot I still think of it as bombish. It can usually make itself unblockable if you have enough red, and maybe do more.
Boldwyr is indeed very good and normally would be an auto-include for me... but I didn't think I wanted it as well as the Scourge and a curve already heavy on 5-drops.
There's also the possibility of running it instead of Scourge. I ruled this out (perhaps rather unfairly) on the basis that although Scourge costs more it really does have a ridiculous power level once it's fully active.
Quote from Puzzle »
I just don't know how to play the Cavern
Well I'm hardly an expert after only a couple of dozen matches, but I was using it something like this:
* If I don't have a third land by turn three, play it as a land.
* If I have three lands on turn three, play it as a morph. (This is because morphs act as removal magnets and Cavern is a weak card, so that's a good trade.)
* When I need five mana on turn five but have seen only four lands by turn four, leave the Cavern back to block then unmorph with damage on the stack.
* Late game, play it as a land only if this gives you access to a significantly superior play on the same turn. Otherwise, play it as a morph and unmorph it at the end of the opponent's turn. This will usually give a free chump-block and very occasionally can attract removal (opponents typically play with a view to the worst case scenario when they are winning... which they almost always are with this deck until quite late).
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5CB PotM - June 2005, November 2005, February 2006, April 2008, May 2008, Feb 2009
MTGSalvation Articles: 1-20, plus guest appearance on MTGCast #86!
<Limited Clan>
Green is an obvious choice and GR seems obvious, but you could also go GW and have a better early game.
I, personally would have gone GR, but the decks I make usually are bombish and really lack an early game.
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Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
I had to quote this too. If this was TTT I'd almost agree with you, but rough//tumble on a 5/5 flyer is most definately playable (some might same bomb territory.)
You really just need to embrace the rage. I keep a small colony of hamsters next to my computer and every time I lose a match to mana screw I throw one against the wall.
In particular I found it hard to get the mulligans right. For example, playing against U/W I lost game one to Knight of Sursi / Infiltrator Il-Kor and drawing no removal.
Game two I elect to draw first (is that correct ?) and see these seven:
Forest
Forest
Strength in Numbers
Zoetic Cavern
Orcish Cannonade
Fomori Nomad
Spectral Force
I mulliganned it into a one lander and then mulliganned that into a three-lander which got completely overrun. Should I have kept ?
Here's another mulligan problem I saw a number of times. With me on the play my seven cards are something like:
I concluded I have to keep hands like that, but they lose hopelessly a lot of the time to anything with any evasion.
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(I'm on on this site much anymore. If you want to get in touch it's probably best to email me: dom@heffalumps.org)
Forum Awards: Best Writer 2005, Best Limited Strategist 2005-2012
5CB PotM - June 2005, November 2005, February 2006, April 2008, May 2008, Feb 2009
MTGSalvation Articles: 1-20, plus guest appearance on MTGCast #86!
<Limited Clan>
Turn one Knight / turn two Infiltrator is just like the best start possible against removal-light decks. So yes it's normal you'd lose to that, but this pool just doesn't have much removal so not much you can do about that. You still have Skycutter, Cannonnade, Ghostfire, Whelp and Ichor Slick so you have a chance. Of course you have to draw the rigth cards.
That first hand is probably a mulligan. I wouldn't choose to draw. And the second hand is very good of course. If you draw anything to do on turn 3 it should be hard to lose in fact; except again multiple evasion and no removal on your side.
You really just need to embrace the rage. I keep a small colony of hamsters next to my computer and every time I lose a match to mana screw I throw one against the wall.
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1 Durkwood Baloth
1 Greenseeker
1 Chameleon Blur
1 Edge of Autumn
1 Ichor Slick
1 Nessian Courser
1 Molder
1 Mwonvuli Acid-Moss
1 Primal Forcemage
1 Search for Tomorrow
1 Spellwild Ouphe
1 Spectral Force
1 Sporesower Thallid
1 Wrap in Vigor
1 Virulent Sliver
2 Sprout Swarm
1 Strength in Numbers
1 Llanowar Augur
1 Tromp the Domains
Black
1 Conspiracy
1 Assassinate
1 Augur of Skulls
1 Corpulent Corpse
1 Cutthroat il-Dal
1 Dark Withering
1 Deepcavern Imp
1 Frenzy Sliver
1 Gorgon Recluse
1 Pit Keeper
1 Grave Peril
1 Witch's Mist
1 Oblivion Crown
1 Mana Skimmer
1 Smallpox
1 Street Wraith
1 Vampiric Sliver
1 Divine Congregation
1 Errant Doomsayers
1 Icatian Crier
1 Patrician's Scorn
1 Lucent Liminid
1 Lumithread Field
1 Samite Censer-Bearer
1 Knight of Sursi
1 Saltskitter
1 Children of Korlis
1 Amrou Scout
1 Angel of Salvation
1 Aven Mindcensor
Red
1 Ghostfire
1 Grinning Ignus
1 Orcish Cannonade
1 Dragon Whelp
2 Fomori Nomad
1 Gathan Raiders
1 Ironclaw Buzzardiers
1 Boldwyr Intimidator
1 Subterranean Shambler
1 Viashino Bladescout
1 Thick-Skinned Goblin
1 Scourge of Kher Ridges
1 Keldon Halberdier
1 Bogardan Lancer
1 Goblin Skycutter
1 Storm Entity
1 Infiltrator il-Kor
2 Logic Knot
1 Aven Augur
1 Blind Phantasm
1 Ophidian Eye
1 Fathom Seer
1 Pact of Negation
1 Second Wind
1 Spin into Myth
1 Trickbind
1 Truth or Tale
1 Vedalken AEthermage
1 Viscerid Deepwalker
Multi
1 Ith, High Arcanist
1 Opaline Sliver
1 Jhoira of the Ghitu
Artifact
1 Chromatic Star
1 Jhoira's Timebug
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Locket of Yesterdays
Land
1 Saltcrusted Steppe
1 Zoetic Cavern
But how do you actually turn these clearly amazing cards into a winning deck ?
What scoreline would you expect from this pool (release leagues are five matches) ?
Hint: It's clearly possible to do better with it than I did. Expecting 4-1 or maybe 5-0 I went 2-3. Having now played numerous tiebreakers it's become clear I wasn't particularly unlucky, I just built a mediocre deck !
(I'm on on this site much anymore. If you want to get in touch it's probably best to email me: dom@heffalumps.org)
Forum Awards: Best Writer 2005, Best Limited Strategist 2005-2012
5CB PotM - June 2005, November 2005, February 2006, April 2008, May 2008, Feb 2009
MTGSalvation Articles: 1-20, plus guest appearance on MTGCast #86!
<Limited Clan>
1 Durkwood Baloth
1 Search for Tomorrow
1 Keldon Halberdier
1 Edge of Autumn
1 Goblin Skycutter
1 Thick-Skinned Goblin
1 Nessian Courser
1 Primal Forcemage
1 Gathan Raiders
1 Dragon Whelp
1 Spectral Force
2 Fomori Nomad
1 Boldwyr Intimidator
1 Scourge of Kher Ridges
Spells
1 Tromp the Domains
1 Ghostfire
1 Spin into Myth
1 Second Wind
2 Sprout Swarm
7 Forest
7 Mountain
3 Island
Not a great curve, but it's got an early game, kind of a midgame, an insane late game, and some removal + splash of blue for more removal.
MTGO account name: FSM
MTGO rating: 1795
Nick Eisel! I knew it!
That being said, I think I like GR or GWr. I don't know which is better.
Interesting, interesting...
Y'see my initial evaluation was that it was a stupid, broken bomb and had to be played. As such, my deck was GRb with the splash being for Ichor Slick (which is why it's amongst the Green cards - oops).
And sure enough I won some ridiculous games with the Scourge. On one occasion I untapped with it in play and killed a Baloth, a Fomori Nomad and a Might Sliver. On another occasion I killed four creatures including a face down Morph on the same turn I cast it (yup, manaflood).
But many of my losses were to a woeful lack of early game.
I even lost to a dude who assembled Bloodshot Trainee plus Flowstone Embrace in two consecutive games and had Might of Krosa against my Orcish Cannonade.
(I'm on on this site much anymore. If you want to get in touch it's probably best to email me: dom@heffalumps.org)
Forum Awards: Best Writer 2005, Best Limited Strategist 2005-2012
5CB PotM - June 2005, November 2005, February 2006, April 2008, May 2008, Feb 2009
MTGSalvation Articles: 1-20, plus guest appearance on MTGCast #86!
<Limited Clan>
You might be interested to know that you have my list card for card apart from a single difference: I had Zoetic Cavern in place of your Thick-Skinned Goblin to help with reaching eight mana.
I also had 9/7/1 mana during the first three rounds, before deciding that I wanted to improve my chances of an early Cannonade.
(I'm on on this site much anymore. If you want to get in touch it's probably best to email me: dom@heffalumps.org)
Forum Awards: Best Writer 2005, Best Limited Strategist 2005-2012
5CB PotM - June 2005, November 2005, February 2006, April 2008, May 2008, Feb 2009
MTGSalvation Articles: 1-20, plus guest appearance on MTGCast #86!
<Limited Clan>
There's also the possibility of running it instead of Scourge. I ruled this out (perhaps rather unfairly) on the basis that although Scourge costs more it really does have a ridiculous power level once it's fully active.
Well I'm hardly an expert after only a couple of dozen matches, but I was using it something like this:
* If I don't have a third land by turn three, play it as a land.
* If I have three lands on turn three, play it as a morph. (This is because morphs act as removal magnets and Cavern is a weak card, so that's a good trade.)
* When I need five mana on turn five but have seen only four lands by turn four, leave the Cavern back to block then unmorph with damage on the stack.
* Late game, play it as a land only if this gives you access to a significantly superior play on the same turn. Otherwise, play it as a morph and unmorph it at the end of the opponent's turn. This will usually give a free chump-block and very occasionally can attract removal (opponents typically play with a view to the worst case scenario when they are winning... which they almost always are with this deck until quite late).
(I'm on on this site much anymore. If you want to get in touch it's probably best to email me: dom@heffalumps.org)
Forum Awards: Best Writer 2005, Best Limited Strategist 2005-2012
5CB PotM - June 2005, November 2005, February 2006, April 2008, May 2008, Feb 2009
MTGSalvation Articles: 1-20, plus guest appearance on MTGCast #86!
<Limited Clan>
1 Durkwood Baloth
1 Search for Tomorrow
1 Edge of Autumn
2 Sprout Swarm
1 Nessian Courser
1 Sporesower Thallid
1 Spectral Force
1 Tromp the Domains
1 Keldon Halberdier
1 Thick-Skinned Goblin
1 Goblin Skycutter
1 Ghostfire
1 Grinning Ignus
1 Orcish Cannonade
1 Gathan Raiders
1 Dragon Whelp
1 Keldon Halberdier
1 Scourge of Kher Ridges
Blue
1 Second Wind
1 Spin into Myth
Artifact
1 Chromatic Star
Land
7 Forest
7 Mountain
1 Island
1 Saltcrusted Steppe
It's got a lot of late game bombs. It may be a bit slow, though.
Now to see what others have suggested
I, personally would have gone GR, but the decks I make usually are bombish and really lack an early game.
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)I had to quote this too. If this was TTT I'd almost agree with you, but rough//tumble on a 5/5 flyer is most definately playable (some might same bomb territory.)
I would probably do the GRb startegy
7 Mountain
1 Swamp
1 Zoetic Cavern
1 Durkwood Baloth
1 Keldon Halberdier
1 Goblin Skycutter
1 Thick-Skinned Goblin
1 Grinning Ignus
1 Gathan Raiders
1 Nessian Courser
1 Primal Forcemage
1 Sporesower Thallid
1 Dragon Whelp
2 Fomori Nomad
1 Spectral Force
1 Scourge of Kher Ridges
1 Edge of Autumn
1 Strength in Numbers
1 Ghostfire
1 Orcish Cannonade
2 Sprout Swarm
1 Tromp the Domains
1 Ichor Slick
Playing white instead of red is certainly an option. I really can't see why this deck wouldn't be good though. You're sure you played well?
Not at all sure !
In particular I found it hard to get the mulligans right. For example, playing against U/W I lost game one to Knight of Sursi / Infiltrator Il-Kor and drawing no removal.
Game two I elect to draw first (is that correct ?) and see these seven:
Forest
Forest
Strength in Numbers
Zoetic Cavern
Orcish Cannonade
Fomori Nomad
Spectral Force
I mulliganned it into a one lander and then mulliganned that into a three-lander which got completely overrun. Should I have kept ?
Here's another mulligan problem I saw a number of times. With me on the play my seven cards are something like:
Forest
Forest
Mountain
Edge of Autumn
Sprout Swarm
Fomori Nomad
Durkwood Baloth
I concluded I have to keep hands like that, but they lose hopelessly a lot of the time to anything with any evasion.
(I'm on on this site much anymore. If you want to get in touch it's probably best to email me: dom@heffalumps.org)
Forum Awards: Best Writer 2005, Best Limited Strategist 2005-2012
5CB PotM - June 2005, November 2005, February 2006, April 2008, May 2008, Feb 2009
MTGSalvation Articles: 1-20, plus guest appearance on MTGCast #86!
<Limited Clan>
That first hand is probably a mulligan. I wouldn't choose to draw. And the second hand is very good of course. If you draw anything to do on turn 3 it should be hard to lose in fact; except again multiple evasion and no removal on your side.