Things of note:
1. The axe's 5 damage for cheap early on is fine, even if youa re discarding a mediocre card or land. It gets better in BR, and i consider it better than rift bolt for a few reasons:
a. Instant Speed.
b. Gets better as removal in late game
c. Can power out Madness creatures in BR
Yeah the bolt has reach and suspend (Though suspend is less often used in limited in this case), but the axe's 5 damage is quite nice and its the instant speed that makes me put it higher.
2. Amrou Scout over Castle Raptors, though the raptors are very good. Still If i'm a white archetype, i want to have scouts simplay as some of the good playable white cards (doomsayer, zealot, outrider, knight of holy nimbus) are all rebels. Heck, even if you don't get any good rebels, if you play the scout turn 2 it WILL draw removal, and most 2/1s for 2 don't do that.
3. Soot is meh for me, because
A. I HATE BLACK in this format and
B. Its really not that great without red, compared to tendrils of corruption. And BR is TERRIBLE in this format.
4. Looter and Baloth are really up there. Baloth is a great green card in the format, and while most people hate green for some reason, i often find it underdrafted and will take a good advantage. First turn suspended baloth is the best possible green opening. Looter is good, but overrated.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Mafia MVP Harry Potter Mafia!
Logical Reasoning is dead; Long Live Stupidity
Quote from Seppel »
I love Joboman, Poggy, Niv, and Vezok, because, while they may not be the best players, they still try to win. Having fun is the most important thing to a game, but I've learned that if you don't try to win, then you're ruining everyone else's fun.
I'm sorry, I just don't 'get' Soot. Is it playable? Sure, it's nice to take out a little dude, and removal is always good in draft. But after that, it's six mana and another color to do it again...and IMHO, that makes the second casting worse than Dark Withering. And while I hear you shouting "card economy" and "just splash red", do I really want to dilute my mana base so that I can make a card be better than mediocre? Bah.
Additionally, while Lightning Axe is a lot of damage, it 1) can't go to the dome and 2) requires either card disadvantage or a very large investment of mana. In a pack with Rift Bolt and Lightning Axe, I'd still take the Bolt.
And finally, while Temporal Isolation is a great way to deal with an attacking creature, it doesn't really do much against utility creatures, and it provides a capable shadow blocker.
And c'mon. Terramorphic Expanse? Cute mana diversifier and deck thinner, but a game-winner? Hell no. Durkwood Baloth? Random McFattie? I'm not buyin' it. Castle Raptors? Definitely an honorable mention...that's really the only common where I might consider pushing one of my picks out of the running, since a 3/5 flyer really is tough to deal with.
on lightning axe. No one is saying that 2 for 1'ing yourself is good, but R/U (where axe really shines) has no permanent answer to a baloth or another gigantic creature. And in R/U, you're already gaining anough card advantage (from things like fahtom seer) the discard doesn't really matter.
And finally, while Temporal Isolation is a great way to deal with an attacking creature, it doesn't really do much against utility creatures, and it provides a capable shadow blocker.
it also deals with shell-dwellers and penumbra spiders extreamly well. White simply can't beat penumbra spider without isolation.
This is a list of commons against which Temporal Isolation has partial or no effect. Keep in mind - this is just the commons. (And naturally, I left out non-creature spells.)
That list is pathetic. Half the cards are unplayable, and for the rest most removal spells "can't deal with them completely". That's the freaking point of cip abilities and that stuff.
Removal can't be a top pick! Cause Viashino Bladescout can still give a creature first strike! wtf.
The problem so many players have is that they can't take advice from better players. Just from reading these posts it's obvious moogie knows more about the Limited format, so you might have to accept some of the things he says. Christopherw's comments are also very good.
You really just need to embrace the rage. I keep a small colony of hamsters next to my computer and every time I lose a match to mana screw I throw one against the wall.
That list is pathetic. Half the cards are unplayable, and for the rest most removal spells "can't deal with them completely". That's the freaking point of cip abilities and that stuff.
Because it's "a list of commons against which Temporal Isolation has partial or no effect."
Just from reading these posts it's obvious moogie knows more about the Limited format, so you might have to accept some of the things he says. Christopherw's comments are also very good.
The great thing about rational discourse is that we don't just need to advance lists and decide who we agree with, it's also possible to discuss the reasons behind choices.
Even good players won't necessarily agree all the time. For example Andar (who is a better player than I am) remarked the other day that he almost always ends up playing Control in this format. Which amazed me, since I had come to the conclusion all the best decks were beatdown.
And with my Lightning Axe question, for example, loran16's response was actually of some use in clarifying the source of the card's strength. He could have responded "OMFG - you're so awful, n00b", but that would have been much less constructive.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
--
(I'm on on this site much anymore. If you want to get in touch it's probably best to email me: dom@heffalumps.org)
Forum Awards: Best Writer 2005, Best Limited Strategist 2005-2012
5CB PotM - June 2005, November 2005, February 2006, April 2008, May 2008, Feb 2009
MTGSalvation Articles: 1-20, plus guest appearance on MTGCast #86!
<Limited Clan>
The great thing about rational discourse is that we don't just need to advance lists and decide who we agree with, it's also possible to discuss the reasons behind choices.
True. But once the discussion goes down to: "look at all the card TI can't completely deal with" and you post a list containing crap like Children of Korlis, Screeching Sliver and Savage Thallid; cards no removal spell can really "deal" with like Fathom Seer and Nantuko Shaman; and cards that are really not a problem for TI like Spiketail Drakeling and Viashino Bladescout - at that point the discussion becomes absolutely pointless.
Also, discussion becomes very confusing when people who don't know much about the format keep trying to hammer their points home. I realize it's the fate of a forum like this, so I'd better just let the topic go now.
You really just need to embrace the rage. I keep a small colony of hamsters next to my computer and every time I lose a match to mana screw I throw one against the wall.
The great thing about rational discourse is that we don't just need to advance lists and decide who we agree with, it's also possible to discuss the reasons behind choices.
Even good players won't necessarily agree all the time. For example Andar (who is a better player than I am) remarked the other day that he almost always ends up playing Control in this format. Which amazed me, since I had come to the conclusion all the best decks were beatdown.
And with my Lightning Axe question, for example, loran16's response was actually of some use in clarifying the source of the card's strength. He could have responded "OMFG - you're so awful, n00b", but that would have been much less constructive.
OMFG - you're so awful, n00b. Clearly :-P
No, but Tahn is right in this instance...trying to say a card is bad because it doesnt deal with X other cards is a mediocre argument usually, and when (as in this case) those x other cards include other not very playable cards in the group, well the argument is stupid and dumb.
Istanbul, you don't seem to have played the format very much. Soot is very playable, simply as it takes out a large portion of the common creatures and can be double used. More often than not, its used twice via a splash, so BR isnt a problem.
Axe is higher than bolt imo for the reasons i m entioned before. Discarding a land is nothing when you're doing the 5 at INSTANT speed, and in late game it gets better. Plus in BR its a madness enabler.
Also, baloth is a fantastic card, for reasons youd understand if you played the format. Its 5/5 body is one of the biggest of all playable creatures, and the ability to suspend it on turn 1 is a very strong play. very few creatures, and almost none in nongreen colors (barring tectonic fiend and other red echoes i may forget) can deal with it alone, making it very strong. Fat is in short supply in this format, making a 5/5 a lot stronger here than it was say, in rav/gp/dis draft.
As for expanse, i wouldnt consider it top 10, but its a very good card that i dont mind picking picks 5 and beyond pack 1, and its ranking goes up depending on how many colors you play. It always makes the deck, but it can "be a game winner".
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Mafia MVP Harry Potter Mafia!
Logical Reasoning is dead; Long Live Stupidity
Quote from Seppel »
I love Joboman, Poggy, Niv, and Vezok, because, while they may not be the best players, they still try to win. Having fun is the most important thing to a game, but I've learned that if you don't try to win, then you're ruining everyone else's fun.
1) If I have an Urborg Syphon-Mage creating a large life swing between me and my opponent, I'll take Assassinate over Temporal Isolation any day.
2) The list I posted was comprehensive, not meant to indicate the cream of the crop. (And yes, I meant Scout, not Seekers.)
3) Some people - Tahn, I'm looking RIGHT AT YOU - really need to stop being such utter tools, get down off of their high horse, and maybe try to see other peoples' viewpoints without dismissing them out of hand. Have you ever considered that I might actually be RIGHT, or...be honest...have you prejudged what I've said simply because of what your opinion already is without actually giving my point of view any thought?
If you can draft a deck full of amazing cards where everything is a top 5 pick and you roll over every opponent you face, awesome, more power to ya. But the fact is, virtually ALL drafters wind up playing with "sub-par" cards. And when you're sitting on 7 mana, ready to drop your Ith, and your opponent has a Spiketail Drakeling in play, Temporal Isolation is not the card you want to have in hand to handle it.
I've actually played this format quite a bit. I'd like to clarify a point.
I NEVER SAID THAT LIGHTNING AXE WAS BAD.
This seems to be the assumption under which everyone is operating; that I think Lightning Axe sucks, and I wouldn't play it. That is, of course, stupid. I like Rift Bolt more for its flexibility; I see lots of creature stalemates in the late game, and the ability of Rift Bolt to go to the dome for those last few points sells me on the card. You say Lightning Axe is a madness enabler? Well, Rift Bolt is a storm enabler.
And you know something? I clearly posted that I wanted peoples' opinions. Not "Your opinion differs from mine, therefore you must not play Magic and you must hate removal and you are wrong, WRONG, WRONG!". Well, guess what? I would often rather have an Assassinate than a Temporal Isolation, or a Durkwood Baloth, or a Lightning Axe. I dislike having to splash a third color to flash back a spell with limited applications. (And going maindeck red/black...I should be so lucky.) I'm not telling you that you're wrong for liking the cards I mentioned; I'm telling you that I like my picks more.
I guess some people just aren't secure in their opinions unless they try to tear down the opinions of others.
Try not to be such dickholes, huh? In the interim, since this has deteriorated into an Istanbul Sucks thread (despite the fact that I agree with almost all of you on almost all of the mentioned cards), you guys can trash me in peace; I'll move on to greener pastures. You guys keep patting yourselves on the back about how awesome you are.
1) If I have an Urborg Syphon-Mage creating a large life swing between me and my opponent, I'll take Assassinate over Temporal Isolation any day.
2) The list I posted was comprehensive, not meant to indicate the cream of the crop. (And yes, I meant Scout, not Seekers.)
3) Some people - Tahn, I'm looking RIGHT AT YOU - really need to stop being such utter tools, get down off of their high horse, and maybe try to see other peoples' viewpoints without dismissing them out of hand. Have you ever considered that I might actually be RIGHT, or...be honest...have you prejudged what I've said simply because of what your opinion already is without actually giving my point of view any thought?
If you can draft a deck full of amazing cards where everything is a top 5 pick and you roll over every opponent you face, awesome, more power to ya. But the fact is, virtually ALL drafters wind up playing with "sub-par" cards. And when you're sitting on 7 mana, ready to drop your Ith, and your opponent has a Spiketail Drakeling in play, Temporal Isolation is not the card you want to have in hand to handle it.
I've actually played this format quite a bit. I'd like to clarify a point.
I NEVER SAID THAT LIGHTNING AXE WAS BAD.
This seems to be the assumption under which everyone is operating; that I think Lightning Axe sucks, and I wouldn't play it. That is, of course, stupid. I like Rift Bolt more for its flexibility; I see lots of creature stalemates in the late game, and the ability of Rift Bolt to go to the dome for those last few points sells me on the card. You say Lightning Axe is a madness enabler? Well, Rift Bolt is a storm enabler.
And you know something? I clearly posted that I wanted peoples' opinions. Not "Your opinion differs from mine, therefore you must not play Magic and you must hate removal and you are wrong, WRONG, WRONG!". Well, guess what? I would often rather have an Assassinate than a Temporal Isolation, or a Durkwood Baloth, or a Lightning Axe. I dislike having to splash a third color to flash back a spell with limited applications. (And going maindeck red/black...I should be so lucky.) I'm not telling you that you're wrong for liking the cards I mentioned; I'm telling you that I like my picks more.
I guess some people just aren't secure in their opinions unless they try to tear down the opinions of others.
Try not to be such dickholes, huh? In the interim, since this has deteriorated into an Istanbul Sucks thread (despite the fact that I agree with almost all of you on almost all of the mentioned cards), you guys can trash me in peace; I'll move on to greener pastures. You guys keep patting yourselves on the back about how awesome you are.
See here's the difference. WE"RE NOT! You see, none of us has claimed to be a limited genius. But your comments, including this one, clearly show a lack of playing the format. And yet you still show an obstinance thats amusing.
Also, assasinate is a crummy black removal spell, since its limited to being a sorcery. Like isolation, it cant stop most of those utility cratures ANYHOW (how's it going to stop a syphonmage used at eot, or an amrou scout). Besides, as long as you're not color screwed, i think we'd all rather have lightning axe over it.
In fact, assassinate is possibly more limited than isolation, which can be used as a combat trick or at instant speed.
Point is, Istanbul, is that this is the LIMITED FORUM. You got a lot of people here who play a lot of the format, and when a lot of people are ganging up on you for your reasoning, you should either:
A. Think about it, and maybe admit your error,
or
B. Try and argue reasonably why you're right.
And while it seems you're trying to do B, you're doing it completely in a screwed up manner. Calling strangling soot a spell with limited aspirations when it takes out 102/165 creatures in the format (and yeah i just looked that up), is rather silly. Mind you, If i'm in black, ill take tendrils over soot on occastion. But soot is a very good card, and if i'm in red i may splash black for the soot.
@Jimbo, glad to hear someone appreciates.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Mafia MVP Harry Potter Mafia!
Logical Reasoning is dead; Long Live Stupidity
Quote from Seppel »
I love Joboman, Poggy, Niv, and Vezok, because, while they may not be the best players, they still try to win. Having fun is the most important thing to a game, but I've learned that if you don't try to win, then you're ruining everyone else's fun.
Don't lump me in with Istanbul: I know full well that Soot is a fantastic card. However, I'll take Bolt over it, simply because I don't want to be locked into RB so early. I mean, if there's no bolt or anything in a pack, I'll hapilly pick a soot and go RB, but if there's something better I'd rather not. But the fact that it locks you into a terrible, terrible color combination to utilize its full potential prevent it from going above bolt. Note that soot is #3 on my list because it is that damn good. If soot has flashback 5B, it's the best common in the format, I think.
And, yeah. Assassinate is ew.
Subterranean Shambler has been extremely mediocre for me. I hate most of the echo cards in general: it's like saying to your opponent "Okay, i'm going to get a creature, and you're going to get a time walk. Sounds fair?" Exception made for Kavu obv obv obv.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Lord, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, the wisdom to know the difference, and a ****ing chainsaw.
IMO Bolt is better. By definition, they kill the same thing at least once, and i like the ability to throw the burn to the face on occasion (especially in things like UR or WR) that bolt gives you.
I mean, I'm more likely to play red than i am black, and if i am i want bolts. THe chance of me splashing either is fairly equal, but since i'm more likely to play red, i prefer the bolt.
Also, as per my comment on tendrils, i was talking about being at most two colors with heavy black.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Mafia MVP Harry Potter Mafia!
Logical Reasoning is dead; Long Live Stupidity
Quote from Seppel »
I love Joboman, Poggy, Niv, and Vezok, because, while they may not be the best players, they still try to win. Having fun is the most important thing to a game, but I've learned that if you don't try to win, then you're ruining everyone else's fun.
Just FYI...
You are an arrogant, rude, pushy, demeaning, nasty little cockbag, and I hope you spend your entire day dealing with people exactly like you.
Get a grip.
Oh and the comment about when someone's draining you with Syphon-Mage, you'd rather have Assassinate than Temporal Isolation... heh.. but don't worry I'm not gonna discuss with you.
You really just need to embrace the rage. I keep a small colony of hamsters next to my computer and every time I lose a match to mana screw I throw one against the wall.
Finally, the most undervalued common, imo, is Subterranean Shambler. It's a bit like a mini-Sulfurous Blast on legs that can be triggered twice. (Disclaimer : I'm not saying it's Sulfurous Blast either).
I'm in total agreeance. This card is SO underrated in thie format. You can see them as late as 13th some times. and it's just bettre than that.
Subterranean Shambler has been extremely mediocre for me. I hate most of the echo cards in general: it's like saying to your opponent "Okay, i'm going to get a creature, and you're going to get a time walk. Sounds fair?" Exception made for Kavu obv obv obv.
I agree with this 100%. I have yet to lose a game where my opponent cast flamecore elemental. But the difference between echo creatures and eacho creatures with effects (namly the kavu and the shambler) is that you aren't obligated to pay the echo cost, as its already served its primary purpose. Shambler has all of the same synnergies that kavu has, it just does something different (note: not worse).
the reason the shambler is underrated is because 1 damage (potentially twice) or making you spend all your mana to keep it alive just makes it a pretty poor card, it is way to expensive for what it does. if you want such an effect just pick up grapeshots (which also go fairly late) as they are way better
grapeshot is only way better if you can set it up. There's nothing like killing someone's 1 drop, 2 drop, and 3 drop on turn four. You can really only do that with shambler.
I still have a good memory of this draft 2 weeks ago.
My oponent had 2 benalish cavalry and 1 blazing blade askari out.
I had just a gargodon suspened. I played a shambelr, and sacked it to the gargodon. INSTANT PYROCLASM.
That was fun.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Mafia MVP Harry Potter Mafia!
Logical Reasoning is dead; Long Live Stupidity
Quote from Seppel »
I love Joboman, Poggy, Niv, and Vezok, because, while they may not be the best players, they still try to win. Having fun is the most important thing to a game, but I've learned that if you don't try to win, then you're ruining everyone else's fun.
Thats only the shabler being good together with another card, that doesn't mean its great by itself. And moogie, how often does it happen taht your opponent plays a creature turn 1, 2 and 3 that all have 1 toughness? not that often. i don't really play one drops myself unless they're suspend ones or amazing cards like magus of the scroll. MAybe when you have played your shambler you have played against people that like to play bad creatures like sage of epityr etc. which is stuff you can blow up. also i am just saying that you aren't always gonna get that perfect draw where your opponent drops creature after creature with 1 toughness, and you get to blow them all up. Most of the time the shambler is gonna come out, and end up facing something with evasion, there is lots of flying in this set, or it will probably just end up trading with a cheaper creature than itself. Say what you want, for me its only sideboard material.
While you're correct in my exaggeration (although i have done that), even if you're just killing a looter and/or a gemhide sliver. There's it you still get, a worst, a fog when they dont attack into it.
It also makes your grapeshot next turn much more effective.
The other thing about Shambler is that the 2/3 body you get left with after the effect is actually quite useful.
Although I tend to find my four drop slot a bit crowded in 3xTSp drafts.
...that and Looters and Crookclaws don't play nicely with Shamblers. And nor do Saprolings and Greenseekers. And nor do Icatian Criers or Zealots or Scouts. And nor do Trespassers and Pit Keepers. And so on...
...so I find the majority of my Shamblers end up in the sideboard and only come in if my opponent's deck is suitably vulnerable.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
--
(I'm on on this site much anymore. If you want to get in touch it's probably best to email me: dom@heffalumps.org)
Forum Awards: Best Writer 2005, Best Limited Strategist 2005-2012
5CB PotM - June 2005, November 2005, February 2006, April 2008, May 2008, Feb 2009
MTGSalvation Articles: 1-20, plus guest appearance on MTGCast #86!
<Limited Clan>
The other thing about Shambler is that the 2/3 body you get left with after the effect is actually quite useful.
Although I tend to find my four drop slot a bit crowded in 3xTSp drafts.
...that and Looters and Crookclaws don't play nicely with Shamblers. And nor do Saprolings and Greenseekers. And nor do Icatian Criers or Zealots or Scouts. And nor do Trespassers and Pit Keepers. And so on...
...so I find the majority of my Shamblers end up in the sideboard and only come in if my opponent's deck is suitably vulnerable.
crookclaws are just fine with shamblers, as they live through them (flying FTW).
shambler really shines in UR, where you can snap it back in the same turn (along with other shenanigans). And almost none of your creatures die to it (aside from looters and unmorphed tricksters.
In a first pick of a draft...I will always look for:
1. Errant
2. Strangling Soot
3. Rift Bolt
4. Temporal Isolation
5. Lightning Axe
But my #6...is a card that hasn't been mentioned yet. Gemhide Sliver.
Because I guess I just love mana fixing. Without a sufficient amount of fixing, I always seem to get colored screwed if I end up playing 3 colors. It also is the core of a sliver deck, which can be very powerful if drafted correctly. Many people would take prismatic lens, but I have always been more succesful with gemhide.
shambler really shines in UR, where you can snap it back in the same turn (along with other shenanigans).
Sentinel and Shambler are a limited combo. You get a Pyroclasm every turn. However, with a larger set like this, it isn't easy to pick up multiples of both.
You really just need to embrace the rage. I keep a small colony of hamsters next to my computer and every time I lose a match to mana screw I throw one against the wall.
One thing nobody mentioned about Temporal Isolation is that you have to be a bit careful not to stick it with the wrong cards. For example Cloudchaser Kestrel, Soltari Priest, Tresspasser Il-Vec, Looter, etc. I've shot myself in the foot by playing an Isolation then drawing a Kestrel.
That isn't to say Isolation is a bad card - it's a great card. But it is one reason I prefer something like Seekers over Kestrel. (Seekers are easier to cast as well)
On the plus side, it deals with creatures that very little other removal can deal with, and for much cheaper. If someone whips out a Ephemeron or a Baloth there isn't much removal in the set that can deal with that, and certainly not for 2cc with no other cost attached.
---
Deathspore is awesome in a Thallids deck. It is the reason to play Thallids really, as the saproling ability is far far better than any other Thallid. But by itself it is pretty sad. When playing against red/black I often won't cast this until I have another Thallid in play with the ability to make some saprolings, or I've dropped something else that begs for removal. Too often you drop it on turn 2 and it dies to some removal on turn 3.
---
Shambler is the sort of card you end up either sideboarding in or sideboarding out a lot of the time. It can kill you own guys and a lot of the time it does nothing. And has been mentioned red has a fair number of X/1 guys. I'll draft a Shambler over a duplicate borderline card but I expect to maindeck it rarely. Once your opponent shows off his two Looters and two Halberdiers that's when it goes in. To maindeck it always is to take a pretty big tempo hit in a color that has tempo issues to begin with.
Sulfurous Blast is big enough that if you have one in your opening hand you can slow-play your guys to get a nice trade. If you pick up a Sulfurous Blast or two you can also start crafting a slower, control-style deck. You can't really do that with Shambler, the effect isn't large enough to fundamentally change your deck list or how you play it.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
2) Lightning Axe
3) Rift Bolt
4) Amrou Scout
5) Strangling Soot
6) Looter Il-Kor
7) Durkwood Baloth
Things of note:
1. The axe's 5 damage for cheap early on is fine, even if youa re discarding a mediocre card or land. It gets better in BR, and i consider it better than rift bolt for a few reasons:
a. Instant Speed.
b. Gets better as removal in late game
c. Can power out Madness creatures in BR
Yeah the bolt has reach and suspend (Though suspend is less often used in limited in this case), but the axe's 5 damage is quite nice and its the instant speed that makes me put it higher.
2. Amrou Scout over Castle Raptors, though the raptors are very good. Still If i'm a white archetype, i want to have scouts simplay as some of the good playable white cards (doomsayer, zealot, outrider, knight of holy nimbus) are all rebels. Heck, even if you don't get any good rebels, if you play the scout turn 2 it WILL draw removal, and most 2/1s for 2 don't do that.
3. Soot is meh for me, because
A. I HATE BLACK in this format and
B. Its really not that great without red, compared to tendrils of corruption. And BR is TERRIBLE in this format.
4. Looter and Baloth are really up there. Baloth is a great green card in the format, and while most people hate green for some reason, i often find it underdrafted and will take a good advantage. First turn suspended baloth is the best possible green opening. Looter is good, but overrated.
Logical Reasoning is dead; Long Live Stupidity
Additionally, while Lightning Axe is a lot of damage, it 1) can't go to the dome and 2) requires either card disadvantage or a very large investment of mana. In a pack with Rift Bolt and Lightning Axe, I'd still take the Bolt.
And finally, while Temporal Isolation is a great way to deal with an attacking creature, it doesn't really do much against utility creatures, and it provides a capable shadow blocker.
And c'mon. Terramorphic Expanse? Cute mana diversifier and deck thinner, but a game-winner? Hell no. Durkwood Baloth? Random McFattie? I'm not buyin' it. Castle Raptors? Definitely an honorable mention...that's really the only common where I might consider pushing one of my picks out of the running, since a 3/5 flyer really is tough to deal with.
Always trading for more Kezzerdrixes...drixen...drixii...for more!
"Of course I'm crazy, but that doesn't mean I'm wrong. I'm mad but not ill." - . _Werewolf Bridge_, Robert Anton Wilson
CHAMPION of Survivor MTG News vs. MTG Salvation!
WINNER of DC5 #1!
WINNER of Sept. '06 DCC!
Owner of Stax's Soul!
Think.
it also deals with shell-dwellers and penumbra spiders extreamly well. White simply can't beat penumbra spider without isolation.
Children of Korlis
Flickering Spirit
Icatian Crier
-
Fathom Seer
Screeching Sliver
Spiketail Drakeling
Tolarian Sentinel
-
Basal Sliver
Deathspore Thallid
Gorgon Recluse
Mindlash Sliver
Pit Keeper
Urborg Syphon-Mage
-
Bogardan Rager
Flowstone Channeler
Goblin Skycutter (if I'm not mistaken)
Mogg War Marshal
Viashino Bladescout
-
Gemhide Sliver
Greenseeker
Nantuko Shaman
Savage Thallid
Thallid Germinator
Thallid Shell-Dweller
This is a list of commons against which Temporal Isolation has partial or no effect. Keep in mind - this is just the commons. (And naturally, I left out non-creature spells.)
Always trading for more Kezzerdrixes...drixen...drixii...for more!
"Of course I'm crazy, but that doesn't mean I'm wrong. I'm mad but not ill." - . _Werewolf Bridge_, Robert Anton Wilson
CHAMPION of Survivor MTG News vs. MTG Salvation!
WINNER of DC5 #1!
WINNER of Sept. '06 DCC!
Owner of Stax's Soul!
Think.
Removal can't be a top pick! Cause Viashino Bladescout can still give a creature first strike! wtf.
The problem so many players have is that they can't take advice from better players. Just from reading these posts it's obvious moogie knows more about the Limited format, so you might have to accept some of the things he says. Christopherw's comments are also very good.
Because it's "a list of commons against which Temporal Isolation has partial or no effect."
The great thing about rational discourse is that we don't just need to advance lists and decide who we agree with, it's also possible to discuss the reasons behind choices.
Even good players won't necessarily agree all the time. For example Andar (who is a better player than I am) remarked the other day that he almost always ends up playing Control in this format. Which amazed me, since I had come to the conclusion all the best decks were beatdown.
And with my Lightning Axe question, for example, loran16's response was actually of some use in clarifying the source of the card's strength. He could have responded "OMFG - you're so awful, n00b", but that would have been much less constructive.
(I'm on on this site much anymore. If you want to get in touch it's probably best to email me: dom@heffalumps.org)
Forum Awards: Best Writer 2005, Best Limited Strategist 2005-2012
5CB PotM - June 2005, November 2005, February 2006, April 2008, May 2008, Feb 2009
MTGSalvation Articles: 1-20, plus guest appearance on MTGCast #86!
<Limited Clan>
True. But once the discussion goes down to: "look at all the card TI can't completely deal with" and you post a list containing crap like Children of Korlis, Screeching Sliver and Savage Thallid; cards no removal spell can really "deal" with like Fathom Seer and Nantuko Shaman; and cards that are really not a problem for TI like Spiketail Drakeling and Viashino Bladescout - at that point the discussion becomes absolutely pointless.
Also, discussion becomes very confusing when people who don't know much about the format keep trying to hammer their points home. I realize it's the fate of a forum like this, so I'd better just let the topic go now.
OMFG - you're so awful, n00b. Clearly :-P
No, but Tahn is right in this instance...trying to say a card is bad because it doesnt deal with X other cards is a mediocre argument usually, and when (as in this case) those x other cards include other not very playable cards in the group, well the argument is stupid and dumb.
Istanbul, you don't seem to have played the format very much. Soot is very playable, simply as it takes out a large portion of the common creatures and can be double used. More often than not, its used twice via a splash, so BR isnt a problem.
Axe is higher than bolt imo for the reasons i m entioned before. Discarding a land is nothing when you're doing the 5 at INSTANT speed, and in late game it gets better. Plus in BR its a madness enabler.
Also, baloth is a fantastic card, for reasons youd understand if you played the format. Its 5/5 body is one of the biggest of all playable creatures, and the ability to suspend it on turn 1 is a very strong play. very few creatures, and almost none in nongreen colors (barring tectonic fiend and other red echoes i may forget) can deal with it alone, making it very strong. Fat is in short supply in this format, making a 5/5 a lot stronger here than it was say, in rav/gp/dis draft.
As for expanse, i wouldnt consider it top 10, but its a very good card that i dont mind picking picks 5 and beyond pack 1, and its ranking goes up depending on how many colors you play. It always makes the deck, but it can "be a game winner".
Logical Reasoning is dead; Long Live Stupidity
1) If I have an Urborg Syphon-Mage creating a large life swing between me and my opponent, I'll take Assassinate over Temporal Isolation any day.
2) The list I posted was comprehensive, not meant to indicate the cream of the crop. (And yes, I meant Scout, not Seekers.)
3) Some people - Tahn, I'm looking RIGHT AT YOU - really need to stop being such utter tools, get down off of their high horse, and maybe try to see other peoples' viewpoints without dismissing them out of hand. Have you ever considered that I might actually be RIGHT, or...be honest...have you prejudged what I've said simply because of what your opinion already is without actually giving my point of view any thought?
If you can draft a deck full of amazing cards where everything is a top 5 pick and you roll over every opponent you face, awesome, more power to ya. But the fact is, virtually ALL drafters wind up playing with "sub-par" cards. And when you're sitting on 7 mana, ready to drop your Ith, and your opponent has a Spiketail Drakeling in play, Temporal Isolation is not the card you want to have in hand to handle it.
I've actually played this format quite a bit. I'd like to clarify a point.
I NEVER SAID THAT LIGHTNING AXE WAS BAD.
This seems to be the assumption under which everyone is operating; that I think Lightning Axe sucks, and I wouldn't play it. That is, of course, stupid. I like Rift Bolt more for its flexibility; I see lots of creature stalemates in the late game, and the ability of Rift Bolt to go to the dome for those last few points sells me on the card. You say Lightning Axe is a madness enabler? Well, Rift Bolt is a storm enabler.
And you know something? I clearly posted that I wanted peoples' opinions. Not "Your opinion differs from mine, therefore you must not play Magic and you must hate removal and you are wrong, WRONG, WRONG!". Well, guess what? I would often rather have an Assassinate than a Temporal Isolation, or a Durkwood Baloth, or a Lightning Axe. I dislike having to splash a third color to flash back a spell with limited applications. (And going maindeck red/black...I should be so lucky.) I'm not telling you that you're wrong for liking the cards I mentioned; I'm telling you that I like my picks more.
I guess some people just aren't secure in their opinions unless they try to tear down the opinions of others.
Try not to be such dickholes, huh? In the interim, since this has deteriorated into an Istanbul Sucks thread (despite the fact that I agree with almost all of you on almost all of the mentioned cards), you guys can trash me in peace; I'll move on to greener pastures. You guys keep patting yourselves on the back about how awesome you are.
Always trading for more Kezzerdrixes...drixen...drixii...for more!
"Of course I'm crazy, but that doesn't mean I'm wrong. I'm mad but not ill." - . _Werewolf Bridge_, Robert Anton Wilson
CHAMPION of Survivor MTG News vs. MTG Salvation!
WINNER of DC5 #1!
WINNER of Sept. '06 DCC!
Owner of Stax's Soul!
Think.
See here's the difference. WE"RE NOT! You see, none of us has claimed to be a limited genius. But your comments, including this one, clearly show a lack of playing the format. And yet you still show an obstinance thats amusing.
Also, assasinate is a crummy black removal spell, since its limited to being a sorcery. Like isolation, it cant stop most of those utility cratures ANYHOW (how's it going to stop a syphonmage used at eot, or an amrou scout). Besides, as long as you're not color screwed, i think we'd all rather have lightning axe over it.
In fact, assassinate is possibly more limited than isolation, which can be used as a combat trick or at instant speed.
Point is, Istanbul, is that this is the LIMITED FORUM. You got a lot of people here who play a lot of the format, and when a lot of people are ganging up on you for your reasoning, you should either:
A. Think about it, and maybe admit your error,
or
B. Try and argue reasonably why you're right.
And while it seems you're trying to do B, you're doing it completely in a screwed up manner. Calling strangling soot a spell with limited aspirations when it takes out 102/165 creatures in the format (and yeah i just looked that up), is rather silly. Mind you, If i'm in black, ill take tendrils over soot on occastion. But soot is a very good card, and if i'm in red i may splash black for the soot.
@Jimbo, glad to hear someone appreciates.
Logical Reasoning is dead; Long Live Stupidity
And, yeah. Assassinate is ew.
Subterranean Shambler has been extremely mediocre for me. I hate most of the echo cards in general: it's like saying to your opponent "Okay, i'm going to get a creature, and you're going to get a time walk. Sounds fair?" Exception made for Kavu obv obv obv.
I mean, I'm more likely to play red than i am black, and if i am i want bolts. THe chance of me splashing either is fairly equal, but since i'm more likely to play red, i prefer the bolt.
Also, as per my comment on tendrils, i was talking about being at most two colors with heavy black.
Logical Reasoning is dead; Long Live Stupidity
Get a grip.
Oh and the comment about when someone's draining you with Syphon-Mage, you'd rather have Assassinate than Temporal Isolation... heh.. but don't worry I'm not gonna discuss with you.
I'm in total agreeance. This card is SO underrated in thie format. You can see them as late as 13th some times. and it's just bettre than that.
I agree with this 100%. I have yet to lose a game where my opponent cast flamecore elemental. But the difference between echo creatures and eacho creatures with effects (namly the kavu and the shambler) is that you aren't obligated to pay the echo cost, as its already served its primary purpose. Shambler has all of the same synnergies that kavu has, it just does something different (note: not worse).
grapeshot is only way better if you can set it up. There's nothing like killing someone's 1 drop, 2 drop, and 3 drop on turn four. You can really only do that with shambler.
My oponent had 2 benalish cavalry and 1 blazing blade askari out.
I had just a gargodon suspened. I played a shambelr, and sacked it to the gargodon. INSTANT PYROCLASM.
That was fun.
Logical Reasoning is dead; Long Live Stupidity
While you're correct in my exaggeration (although i have done that), even if you're just killing a looter and/or a gemhide sliver. There's it you still get, a worst, a fog when they dont attack into it.
It also makes your grapeshot next turn much more effective.
Although I tend to find my four drop slot a bit crowded in 3xTSp drafts.
...that and Looters and Crookclaws don't play nicely with Shamblers. And nor do Saprolings and Greenseekers. And nor do Icatian Criers or Zealots or Scouts. And nor do Trespassers and Pit Keepers. And so on...
...so I find the majority of my Shamblers end up in the sideboard and only come in if my opponent's deck is suitably vulnerable.
(I'm on on this site much anymore. If you want to get in touch it's probably best to email me: dom@heffalumps.org)
Forum Awards: Best Writer 2005, Best Limited Strategist 2005-2012
5CB PotM - June 2005, November 2005, February 2006, April 2008, May 2008, Feb 2009
MTGSalvation Articles: 1-20, plus guest appearance on MTGCast #86!
<Limited Clan>
crookclaws are just fine with shamblers, as they live through them (flying FTW).
shambler really shines in UR, where you can snap it back in the same turn (along with other shenanigans). And almost none of your creatures die to it (aside from looters and unmorphed tricksters.
1. Errant
2. Strangling Soot
3. Rift Bolt
4. Temporal Isolation
5. Lightning Axe
But my #6...is a card that hasn't been mentioned yet.
Gemhide Sliver.
Because I guess I just love mana fixing. Without a sufficient amount of fixing, I always seem to get colored screwed if I end up playing 3 colors. It also is the core of a sliver deck, which can be very powerful if drafted correctly. Many people would take prismatic lens, but I have always been more succesful with gemhide.
Sentinel and Shambler are a limited combo. You get a Pyroclasm every turn. However, with a larger set like this, it isn't easy to pick up multiples of both.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=378565
It really sucks if it's your only Thallid, it's vulnerable and ineffictive.
One thing nobody mentioned about Temporal Isolation is that you have to be a bit careful not to stick it with the wrong cards. For example Cloudchaser Kestrel, Soltari Priest, Tresspasser Il-Vec, Looter, etc. I've shot myself in the foot by playing an Isolation then drawing a Kestrel.
That isn't to say Isolation is a bad card - it's a great card. But it is one reason I prefer something like Seekers over Kestrel. (Seekers are easier to cast as well)
On the plus side, it deals with creatures that very little other removal can deal with, and for much cheaper. If someone whips out a Ephemeron or a Baloth there isn't much removal in the set that can deal with that, and certainly not for 2cc with no other cost attached.
---
Deathspore is awesome in a Thallids deck. It is the reason to play Thallids really, as the saproling ability is far far better than any other Thallid. But by itself it is pretty sad. When playing against red/black I often won't cast this until I have another Thallid in play with the ability to make some saprolings, or I've dropped something else that begs for removal. Too often you drop it on turn 2 and it dies to some removal on turn 3.
---
Shambler is the sort of card you end up either sideboarding in or sideboarding out a lot of the time. It can kill you own guys and a lot of the time it does nothing. And has been mentioned red has a fair number of X/1 guys. I'll draft a Shambler over a duplicate borderline card but I expect to maindeck it rarely. Once your opponent shows off his two Looters and two Halberdiers that's when it goes in. To maindeck it always is to take a pretty big tempo hit in a color that has tempo issues to begin with.
Sulfurous Blast is big enough that if you have one in your opening hand you can slow-play your guys to get a nice trade. If you pick up a Sulfurous Blast or two you can also start crafting a slower, control-style deck. You can't really do that with Shambler, the effect isn't large enough to fundamentally change your deck list or how you play it.