It seems as though discussions like this are all over the place.
The conclusion seems to be 'it depends', as usual for draft. If the pack has heavy red I may be less inclined to pick rift bolt over ephemoron. If the pack is heavy blue, I'd likely take the bolt. The only way to truly rate the best cards amongst each other, IMO, is in sealed deck. Granted, it's a slightly different environment, you can guage how much pull a color has in your randomly created pool of cards.
Also, there's just way too many good to great commons in TSP that it's borderline impossible to even have 1 other person agree completely with another person's list of 5 top commons.
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Keeping in mind that for me this is in a vacuum, meaning pack 1 pick 1 with unknown players, then that's me exactly. I might pick Looter over Isolation P1P1 but those are pretty much the best 5 commons in TS.
It'd have to be a really bad P1P1 for me to pick any common other than the ones above first pick, and the order changes depending on who I'm drafting with.
All I know is that Assassinate turns any creature into a burn spell, and I hear lots of the bombs are big bastards that Strangling Soot can't touch.
While it's true that a majority of big beaters and bombs are out of Soot's reach, Soot destroys dozens of utility creatures BEFORE they do their work. Not to say that assassinate is a bad piece of removal, but most of the time the creature you're destroying has already beat you for a bit or sued some sort of activated ability to get them a bit more ahead of you. It is indeed removal, but it's no where near as good as soot [which also flashbacks, mind you, which is an inherent 2 for 1].
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1. Errant Ephemeron
2. Strangling Soot - 2 for 1 and can be splashed either R or B
3. Rift Bolt - simple and elegant
4. Lightning Axe - it would be higher if you're already commited to B
5. Looter il-Kor
I'm pretty sure that if Strangling Soot didn't have flashback, Assassinate would be the higher pick. Range of targets is vastly more important than timing. The 2-for-1 aspect and the "I don't have to be playing black to run this" are the aspects that make Soot so awesome.
What?! Look at the initial post; he is dead. Deceased. Kaputt. Indefinitely horizontal. In mafia games, you see, people are occasionally "killed off," and when that sad event occurs, he or she is no longer allowed to post, on account of rigor mortis and what-have-you.
'Welcome to Mafia Salvation', it said, 'Population: 3,660.' And someone, they never figured out who, had painted on the sign in red letters: '1,831 to lynch.'
I think this is right. And I agree, Istanbul is completely off. I couldn't imagine a more wrong list.
So my list couldn't possibly be more wrong, even though we agree on two of the cards, and everything we didn't agree on either got honorable mentions or is Temporal Isolation (which is cute, but doesn't stop utility creatures at all, and gives a shadowy blocker).
Frankly, dar482, I think you're just trying to show off.
Apparently Castle Raptors is being viewed as white's best common by some pros- take a look at the limited pointing article from a week or two ago. I still don't know that it's better than isolation though- that card is amazing. But I will admit there are ways to get around it (put damage on the stack and bounce the creature, for example) and it doesn't stop utility dudes from doing their thing (aside from Looter il-Kor).
1. Ephemeron
2. Rift Bolt
3. Soot
4. T-Iso
5. Fathom Seer? Looter? Axe? I hate Axe, though =/
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Lord, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, the wisdom to know the difference, and a ****ing chainsaw.
All of the above are assuming I'm in the right colours. Strangling Soot drops out of the top five if I can't support both colours.
I love Lightning Axe and Temporal Isolation for Sealed, but neither quite makes the top five for draft decks.
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<Limited Clan>
Common-wise, there aren't many ways to deal with Castle Raptors. That's why some people are rating it as a the top white common. It can be deal with on the offensive in many ways, but it also is an incredible defender. 3/5 flyers aren't easy to deal with or get by.
I have Looter Il-Kor so high because if unanswered for 2 or 3 turns, it gives an incredible advantage, making it an awesome turn 2.
Whilst I completely agree with this I have it lower because so many things can deal with 1 toughness creatures.
There's nothing I hate more than having two creatures die to the same Grapeshot.
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<Limited Clan>
1. Strangling soot. If I'm already in one of these two colors and I get this card I find a way to splash for it.
2. Fathom Seer. What? I like card advantage.
3. Lightning Axe. What? I like solvancy despite my obession w/ card advantage.
4. Errant Ephammeron
5. Benalvish Calvary. I love u/w in this format, and having multiples of this guy is always insane.
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Quote from Bardo »
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lucifer (pssst it's frucile, not fucile. can't be an annogram without that r.)
Sure it is -- but you'd be "Ice Flu" then. :slant:
Expanse over Lens I would consider controversial, but to rate it alongside the best commons in the format...
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<Limited Clan>
Trouble with Benalish Cavalry is that it's terrible in the late game.
Looter is good on turn two and also good late. Cavalry is even better on turn two but gets weaker rapidly.
Fathom Seer I really don't agree with as top five. Yes, it draws two cards... but one of them is really just a replacement for the Fathom Seer because a 1/3 isn't going to do anything much. And then there's the fact that either card you draw might be land (which you clearly don't need if you just returned two to hand).
Seer is a nice combo with Looter, but definitely not a top pick IMO.
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while there is deinfately room for interpretation, there NO WAY that assasinate is better than strangling soot or lightning axe.
About the top 4 there should be no discussion. The only one up for debate is Temporal Isolation. For me there are quite a lot of cards I'd take over it, cause I don't like white. But the top four best cards are those and in that order.
Fathom Seer I really don't agree with as top five. Yes, it draws two cards... but one of them is really just a replacement for the Fathom Seer because a 1/3 isn't going to do anything much. And then there's the fact that either card you draw might be land (which you clearly don't need if you just returned two to hand).
How much experience do you have with TS? Cause I can tell you, Fathom Seer is a card that gets rated higher every time you see it. It keeps moving up in rankings of good players; some call it essential to a blue deck. I don't think it should be top five (as I said there's only one debatable spot in there) but not far out either. Fathom Seer is not just a 1/3 either, it's a 2/2 switching into 1/3 which is hugely different.
You really just need to embrace the rage. I keep a small colony of hamsters next to my computer and every time I lose a match to mana screw I throw one against the wall.
Honestly, pack 1, pick 1, outside of any other factors, i'll pick a Rift Bolt over a Soot. Soot basically locks you into -three- colors: It's very rare that you can get a full deck filled with good creatures and everything necessary in R/B alone, so you ususally brance into something like green. Bolt is easily splashable in most decks, and on the first casting, bolt is obv obv obv better than soot, and on the second casting, uhh, 5r to kill a utility man is fine, but it's not so superb of an addon that makes me want to branch out into so many colors early. In Time Spiral it pays to keep your options open.
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Lord, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, the wisdom to know the difference, and a ****ing chainsaw.
Cause I can tell you, Fathom Seer is a card that gets rated higher every time you see it. It keeps moving up in rankings of good players; some call it essential to a blue deck.
Those three views being highly plausible, questionable and wrong, respectively.
I'm no TS Draft expert by a long way, but I've been winning more than my fair share and have yet to pick a Fathom Seer in my first three picks of any pack.
What I'm more worried about is my apparent misevaluation of Lightning Axe. The idea of a two-for-one in my opponent's favour really isn't appealing to me. Or should I be treating it as a six mana card ? Or is it some kind of interaction with Storm I'm looking for here ?
Certainly in practice the card has failed to really impress so far. I prefer Temporal Isolation and even Dark Withering seems to match it in terms of effectiveness. The only time it ever seems to really shine is in a superfast W/R deck which uses it to clear a blocker capable of threatening the Flankers whilst discarding a spare land. But then in that deck Fortify's the better card and nobody's claiming that's top five material.
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<Limited Clan>
On the first casting, soot is probably actually better than rift bolt, just because it is at instant speed.
I did overlook that, but 3 and 2 are not the same, and bolt can go to the face.
You dont neccessarily have to go into a third colour to find quality creatures, as in red black there is halberdier, mana skimmer, flamecore elemental, bogardan rager etc.
Umm, what? 3 of 4 there are prime bubble material: they only make your deck about half the time they
're in there. Halderbier is obviously insane though
nd ofr that matter you dont even have to play both halves of the soot.
But then it's nowhere near as good as bolt....
It probably keeps your options even more open to take soot over rift bolt, as it has the potential to be played in 2 totally different colours (if it can be put into graveyard somehow).
How many ways at common can red get stuff into the graveyard without black? only two at common. And then it's 6 to kill one 2-toughness creature...uhh, pass.
Quote from "bateleur" »
What I'm more worried about is my apparent misevaluation of Lightning Axe. The idea of a two-for-one in my opponent's favour really isn't appealing to me. Or should I be treating it as a six mana card ? Or is it some kind of interaction with Storm I'm looking for here ?
Oh god I'm not the only one who thinks this way, thank god. I never got the hyep about Axe: It seems like a bad removal spell. There are 3 situations that you can have with it.
1. You pitch an insane madness card or a land you don't really need. If you don't need land, there's not that many situations where the fact taht it only costs 1 matters. If you pitch a madness card, then, well, you're a champ,. and that's a rare situation where the card is v. good.
2. You pitch a relevant card. Sometimes it needs to be done, but it's major frowns.
Lord, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, the wisdom to know the difference, and a ****ing chainsaw.
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My inclination (after giving it admittedly fairly little thought) is this:
Rift Bolt
Assassinate
Errant Ephemeron
Looter Il-Kor
Keldon Halberdier
Honorable Mentions:
Momentary Blink
Urborg Syphon-Mage
Lightning Axe
Strangling Soot
Always trading for more Kezzerdrixes...drixen...drixii...for more!
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Think.
The conclusion seems to be 'it depends', as usual for draft. If the pack has heavy red I may be less inclined to pick rift bolt over ephemoron. If the pack is heavy blue, I'd likely take the bolt. The only way to truly rate the best cards amongst each other, IMO, is in sealed deck. Granted, it's a slightly different environment, you can guage how much pull a color has in your randomly created pool of cards.
Also, there's just way too many good to great commons in TSP that it's borderline impossible to even have 1 other person agree completely with another person's list of 5 top commons.
Drop by my Helpdesk if you have any questions/concerns on the Limited forum.
Excited for M13 Limited? What do you think the format will look like? Head over to the limited forum and let us know what you think.
1: Errant Ephemeron
2: Strangling Soot
3: Lightning Axe
4: Rift Bolt
5: Temporal Isolation
while there is deinfately room for interpretation, there NO WAY that assasinate is better than strangling soot or lightning axe.
Keeping in mind that for me this is in a vacuum, meaning pack 1 pick 1 with unknown players, then that's me exactly. I might pick Looter over Isolation P1P1 but those are pretty much the best 5 commons in TS.
6 through 10 for me are:
6. Looter il-Kor
7. Castle Raptors
8. Spiketail Drakeling
9. Fathom Seer
10. Tendrils of Corruption
It'd have to be a really bad P1P1 for me to pick any common other than the ones above first pick, and the order changes depending on who I'm drafting with.
...wow, green really got the shaft in TS.
Always trading for more Kezzerdrixes...drixen...drixii...for more!
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Think.
While it's true that a majority of big beaters and bombs are out of Soot's reach, Soot destroys dozens of utility creatures BEFORE they do their work. Not to say that assassinate is a bad piece of removal, but most of the time the creature you're destroying has already beat you for a bit or sued some sort of activated ability to get them a bit more ahead of you. It is indeed removal, but it's no where near as good as soot [which also flashbacks, mind you, which is an inherent 2 for 1].
Drop by my Helpdesk if you have any questions/concerns on the Limited forum.
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1. Errant Ephemeron
2. Strangling Soot - 2 for 1 and can be splashed either R or B
3. Rift Bolt - simple and elegant
4. Lightning Axe - it would be higher if you're already commited to B
5. Looter il-Kor
I think this is right. And I agree, Istanbul is completely off. I couldn't imagine a more wrong list.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=378565
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So my list couldn't possibly be more wrong, even though we agree on two of the cards, and everything we didn't agree on either got honorable mentions or is Temporal Isolation (which is cute, but doesn't stop utility creatures at all, and gives a shadowy blocker).
Frankly, dar482, I think you're just trying to show off.
Always trading for more Kezzerdrixes...drixen...drixii...for more!
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WINNER of DC5 #1!
WINNER of Sept. '06 DCC!
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Think.
2. Rift Bolt
3. Soot
4. T-Iso
5. Fathom Seer? Looter? Axe? I hate Axe, though =/
1) Errant Ephemeron
2) Strangling Soot
3) Rift Bolt
4) Castle Raptors
5) Looter il-Kor
All of the above are assuming I'm in the right colours. Strangling Soot drops out of the top five if I can't support both colours.
I love Lightning Axe and Temporal Isolation for Sealed, but neither quite makes the top five for draft decks.
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<Limited Clan>
2) Durkwood Baloth
3) Errant Ephemeron
4) Lightning Axe
5) Havenwood Wurm
Standard:
Mono Green Haste
Extended:
:symw::symu: Sunny Side Up :symu::symw:
:symu::symb::symr: TEPS Desire :symr::symb::symu:
WTF?
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=378565
Errant Epheremon
I think that's my big issue. I always play red, OR I always play black, but I never wind up playing red AND black.
Always trading for more Kezzerdrixes...drixen...drixii...for more!
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WINNER of DC5 #1!
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Think.
Whilst I completely agree with this I have it lower because so many things can deal with 1 toughness creatures.
There's nothing I hate more than having two creatures die to the same Grapeshot.
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<Limited Clan>
2. Fathom Seer. What? I like card advantage.
3. Lightning Axe. What? I like solvancy despite my obession w/ card advantage.
4. Errant Ephammeron
5. Benalvish Calvary. I love u/w in this format, and having multiples of this guy is always insane.
Wow, that's really radical !
Expanse over Lens I would consider controversial, but to rate it alongside the best commons in the format...
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<Limited Clan>
Looter is good on turn two and also good late. Cavalry is even better on turn two but gets weaker rapidly.
Fathom Seer I really don't agree with as top five. Yes, it draws two cards... but one of them is really just a replacement for the Fathom Seer because a 1/3 isn't going to do anything much. And then there's the fact that either card you draw might be land (which you clearly don't need if you just returned two to hand).
Seer is a nice combo with Looter, but definitely not a top pick IMO.
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<Limited Clan>
About the top 4 there should be no discussion. The only one up for debate is Temporal Isolation. For me there are quite a lot of cards I'd take over it, cause I don't like white. But the top four best cards are those and in that order.
How much experience do you have with TS? Cause I can tell you, Fathom Seer is a card that gets rated higher every time you see it. It keeps moving up in rankings of good players; some call it essential to a blue deck. I don't think it should be top five (as I said there's only one debatable spot in there) but not far out either. Fathom Seer is not just a 1/3 either, it's a 2/2 switching into 1/3 which is hugely different.
Not much. Only about 15 drafts.
Those three views being highly plausible, questionable and wrong, respectively.
I'm no TS Draft expert by a long way, but I've been winning more than my fair share and have yet to pick a Fathom Seer in my first three picks of any pack.
What I'm more worried about is my apparent misevaluation of Lightning Axe. The idea of a two-for-one in my opponent's favour really isn't appealing to me. Or should I be treating it as a six mana card ? Or is it some kind of interaction with Storm I'm looking for here ?
Certainly in practice the card has failed to really impress so far. I prefer Temporal Isolation and even Dark Withering seems to match it in terms of effectiveness. The only time it ever seems to really shine is in a superfast W/R deck which uses it to clear a blocker capable of threatening the Flankers whilst discarding a spare land. But then in that deck Fortify's the better card and nobody's claiming that's top five material.
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<Limited Clan>
I did overlook that, but 3 and 2 are not the same, and bolt can go to the face.
Umm, what? 3 of 4 there are prime bubble material: they only make your deck about half the time they
're in there. Halderbier is obviously insane though
But then it's nowhere near as good as bolt....
How many ways at common can red get stuff into the graveyard without black? only two at common. And then it's 6 to kill one 2-toughness creature...uhh, pass.
Oh god I'm not the only one who thinks this way, thank god. I never got the hyep about Axe: It seems like a bad removal spell. There are 3 situations that you can have with it.
1. You pitch an insane madness card or a land you don't really need. If you don't need land, there's not that many situations where the fact taht it only costs 1 matters. If you pitch a madness card, then, well, you're a champ,. and that's a rare situation where the card is v. good.
2. You pitch a relevant card. Sometimes it needs to be done, but it's major frowns.
3. You cast Pull Under. Umm, yay.