I think, out of around 30 finals made or so this format so far, I've only had the split accepted right off the bat twice. (Another two times we decided to split for time's sake after a game or two.) Here are a few of the reasons I've come up to potentially explain my experience:
1. It took me a long time (20+ events) to even make one finals, a losing streak unlike any I've ever personally seen. Normally, I think people are a little more open to splitting at the beginning of formats, since their rares are worth more and they want to ensure they can keep drafting to get a feel for the format. Since I only finally started winning a couple of weeks in, it's possible that fewer people are splitting to begin with.
2. Lack of replays. Now that people can't watch replays, I think that they're less likely to fear particular bombs or extra copies of cards that they saw in your replays and are generally more likely to assume they have the best deck at the table as a result. Obviously this switch was first made sometime during RTR (unless I'm remembering wrong), but the effects would be far more visible in the first full format.
3. Aggressiveness (perceived and actual) of the format. This could contribute both to people feeling like they have the best deck ("I SMASHED that guy when I curved out, I bet that'll happen again!") and also to the palatability of just playing out the games, since the perception is that they won't take that long anyway.
That said, I'm also willing to believe that these are just theories invented to justify my own frustrating experience (since I've lost about 2/3rds of finals matches), so I'd like to hear if anyone else has noticed a trend or if I'm just going through a run of bad luck.
I split almost every single time I make the finals, but I'm on good terms with a lot of people at my shop and the difference between winning and splitting is one pack, so we usually don't bother to play it out.
I've only been turned down by two individuals in the past year and I think both of them have reversed their thinking after getting mana screwed in the finals once or twice. I don't really care for the variance of the prize pay out and I'd rather have a guaranteed draft over a partially free draft. This is more of an issue as of late since they changed the pay out from 5-3 to 4-2-1-1.
We almost always play for the promo though since playing is actually fun and to do otherwise would be to give up valuable play experience, particularly early on.
Oh yeah I definitely should have mentioned that I meant mostly for online play, since that's where I do most of my playing. But feel free to chime in about paper as well. Splitting is much more common in life I feel because of the social aspect of the game, but maybe I'm wrong!
It involves a bit of trust, but generally the loser of the die roll concedes and the winner trades him or her two packs from the winnings. I've yet to be stiffed in over 2 years of playing and splitting, and though Wizards will threaten to punish "collusion" if the match isn't played, they do acknowledge that players are welcome to split prizes however they see fit, and has been known to intercede in the case that a match was played but the prizes weren't split accordingly (to my secondhand knowledge).
I suppose it's possible that aggressive formats bring out a different crowd or that more people think they have 'unbeatable' decks than in slower formats.
When somebody offers a split, I assume they're doing it because they feel like it's better EV than playing it out. If that's true, it's obviously worse EV for me. So either I'm actually just favored, or they're illogical (and I'm probably favored because these sorts of decisions correspond well to magic).
When somebody offers a split, I assume they're doing it because they feel like it's better EV than playing it out. If that's true, it's obviously worse EV for me. So either I'm actually just favored, or they're illogical (and I'm probably favored because these sorts of decisions correspond well to magic).
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Or they'd rather just draft again at that point?
I only ever accept splits if I'm pretty sure I'm likely to lose, because I enjoy the actual gameplay and therefore don't want to skip a match all other things being equal. It's going to be a rare thing to have that certainty whilst knowing nothing about my opponent's deck.
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<Limited Clan>
You can't view replays during events anymore? Oh that makes me so happy!
I hated that option on principle. I refused to partake just because that's not how Limited is supposed to be played. You're not supposed to be able to scout your opponent so thoroughly and it takes a lot of the fun out of it.
But I know a lot of people used it, and sometimes to great effect like being able to play around a trick they knew I had or save their removal for my bomb rare that they would never assume I had otherwise. It really bothered me, and made me wonder "Who at WotC thought this was a good idea in the first place?!"
At Phyrre56: the logic is that it mimics real life... at a tournament, when you finish, you can go check out other decks and watch people play, so this is the imitation. In fact, its more fair, because in real life, while youre checking out potential opponent's decks, they can't check yours out because you are still playing, while on modo they could.
They got rid of the function because players felt they were obligated to watch replays frantically in the two minutes between rounds because if they did not, but their opponent did, they'd be at a huge disadvantage. I tend to favor the removal of the function personally.
I always try to split, because I know most of the people at my shop and would rather have us both win. Also, it saves time and consternation, and on sundays (when one of my drafts is) I typically lift after drafting, so I would rather just get out of there.
I did also have a very poor starting record for this format. I think this was because for the vast majority of the time I was playing this format, I refused to draft boros or gruul. What do you know, I start drafting those and suddenly I am winning as much as I did in RTR. Go figure : /
At Phyrre56: the logic is that it mimics real life... at a tournament, when you finish, you can go check out other decks and watch people play, so this is the imitation. In fact, its more fair, because in real life, while youre checking out potential opponent's decks, they can't check yours out because you are still playing, while on modo they could.
Hmm...I guess it is more fair but WotC has stated repeatedly that the online game does not have to mimic the paper game. That's why online has chess clocks instead of a round timer -- they would prefer the chess clock system but it's not feasible to do in the paper game.
I wonder if that feature was added to prevent collusion, i.e. chatting with the person who just played your opponent and pumping them for information. That would get really annoying if everyone requested that after each round.
Either way I'm glad it's just shut down now. I would also support no chatting outside of games while you're playing in a draft. That way the odds of getting information about your opponent's deck would be next to zero, unless you organized with people you know to join drafts at the same time (not worth the effort). Like how they shut down chat while you're drafting.
When somebody offers a split, I assume they're doing it because they feel like it's better EV than playing it out. If that's true, it's obviously worse EV for me. So either I'm actually just favored, or they're illogical (and I'm probably favored because these sorts of decisions correspond well to magic).
When somebody offers a split, I assume they're doing it because they feel like it's better EV than playing it out. If that's true, it's obviously worse EV for me. So either I'm actually just favored, or they're illogical (and I'm probably favored because these sorts of decisions correspond well to magic).
The point of splitting is that you both gain EV in another commodity: Time. In any two given finals limited decks, you're not that likely to be heavily favored (or know it, even if you are). Your EV is the split since it is the average return. However, playing the match takes 20-25 minutes. Splitting and joining another draft increases your overall EV considerably since it may add another 1-2 drafts to your evening of FNM.
My store does 8-4 drafts for FNM, so a split is 6-6, and that is accepted almost without hesitation by every player since 6 is 2 drafts worth of packs and there is often a flight about to fire that one or both of those players would miss if they played out the final.
When somebody offers a split, I assume they're doing it because they feel like it's better EV than playing it out. If that's true, it's obviously worse EV for me. So either I'm actually just favored, or they're illogical (and I'm probably favored because these sorts of decisions correspond well to magic).
Unless you have prior knowledge of your opponent's deck, splitting is only illogical if your confidence in your deck is notably higher than a 50% chance of winning. This is especially true if you're in a setting where you can redraft using those prize packs like on MTGO. Two additional packs is rarely worth the risk of being able to not draft an additional time.
If I'm confident my deck has 50-55% chance of winning in the finals, I'll still take a split when the option is there. The difference in EV is negligible and certainty is a commodity. In a paper Swiss draft there's even more incentive, because your EV is objectivelybetter taking a split than a 50% gambit, because the loser isn't garunteed second place.
To answer your initial question directly: You'd take a split for the sake of certainty, a more useful number of packs, or simply better EV.
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Check out the thread for my cube if you have the time, and tell me how terrible it is.
Generals meant to be drafted first in a single pack of 6 cards.
And here is the actual cube, meant to be drafted in 4 regular sized packs. (60 card decks)
I always split 8-4's regardless of my deck, there is way too much variance in limited for me to want to play it. If I had infinite sources of tixs, I would play more but as a grinder I prefer to take safe positive routes.
I have noticed a decline in splits in this format since people assume that they will either always draw their 5x removal, win with their bombs or swarm the board by turn 4. I played in an 8-4 yesterday, I won after my opponent declined the split, he kept bragging about how good his deck was, clearly he doesn't recognize a crazy Simic Deck with Prime Speaker and other goodies still loses to Assemble the Legion & a good Orzhov deck
That's the way I see it is that splitting most often results in zero change in EV, so it's effectively just saving time.
Because of that, whether I split or not usually depends on whether I feel like I want to play another match of Magic or not.
Hmm...I guess it is more fair but WotC has stated repeatedly that the online game does not have to mimic the paper game. That's why online has chess clocks instead of a round timer -- they would prefer the chess clock system but it's not feasible to do in the paper game.
I wonder if that feature was added to prevent collusion, i.e. chatting with the person who just played your opponent and pumping them for information. That would get really annoying if everyone requested that after each round.
Either way I'm glad it's just shut down now. I would also support no chatting outside of games while you're playing in a draft. That way the odds of getting information about your opponent's deck would be next to zero, unless you organized with people you know to join drafts at the same time (not worth the effort). Like how they shut down chat while you're drafting.
The current system is actually a lot more unfair than the old system where you could watch replays. The current system still allows a group of people who join a tournament together to share information about the decks that other people are playing, but someone who joined the tournament by themselves will be going into each match blind. All wizards did by removing replays was increase the advantage clans and such have over other people.
As a newbie while I understand the logic of splitting I will rarely split unless I or my opponent has a time crunch issue. It's not that I believe I'll always win but I'm in it to compete, I want to see how I end up one way or another.
In Phantom Sealed, I've never even seen it offered. Would that still be allowed? 2-1 gives 1 pack (vs. the 4 Tix entry fee), while 3-0 gives 3 packs. Does Wizards have an issue if people do it on streams or videos, where it can be proved?
I don't play online, but at my LGS, it is almost unheard of for people not to split. The one time I saw it happen in a standard tourney, the player who didn't want to split proceded to both lose the final match and get dropped to 3rd in the standings because someone else had better tiebreakers. In general, what we do at our store is 1st/2nd draw the final round, then play for the 1st vs 2nd place prize, to ensure the top two players finish 1 and 2.
For drafts, the prize pay out at my store is 8 man pods, 4-3-2-2, and the winner has the option of "going infinite" where instead of the packs, they get free entry into the next draft. Again, most times the two 2-0 players will draw, then play for the last pack/the go infinite.
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1. It took me a long time (20+ events) to even make one finals, a losing streak unlike any I've ever personally seen. Normally, I think people are a little more open to splitting at the beginning of formats, since their rares are worth more and they want to ensure they can keep drafting to get a feel for the format. Since I only finally started winning a couple of weeks in, it's possible that fewer people are splitting to begin with.
2. Lack of replays. Now that people can't watch replays, I think that they're less likely to fear particular bombs or extra copies of cards that they saw in your replays and are generally more likely to assume they have the best deck at the table as a result. Obviously this switch was first made sometime during RTR (unless I'm remembering wrong), but the effects would be far more visible in the first full format.
3. Aggressiveness (perceived and actual) of the format. This could contribute both to people feeling like they have the best deck ("I SMASHED that guy when I curved out, I bet that'll happen again!") and also to the palatability of just playing out the games, since the perception is that they won't take that long anyway.
That said, I'm also willing to believe that these are just theories invented to justify my own frustrating experience (since I've lost about 2/3rds of finals matches), so I'd like to hear if anyone else has noticed a trend or if I'm just going through a run of bad luck.
Cool!
I've only been turned down by two individuals in the past year and I think both of them have reversed their thinking after getting mana screwed in the finals once or twice. I don't really care for the variance of the prize pay out and I'd rather have a guaranteed draft over a partially free draft. This is more of an issue as of late since they changed the pay out from 5-3 to 4-2-1-1.
We almost always play for the promo though since playing is actually fun and to do otherwise would be to give up valuable play experience, particularly early on.
Older Magic as a Board Game: Panglacial Wurm , Mill
Older Magic as a Board Game: Panglacial Wurm , Mill
Older Magic as a Board Game: Panglacial Wurm , Mill
I basically never split unless my deck sucks, but that's just me
*DCI Rules Advisor*
When somebody offers a split, I assume they're doing it because they feel like it's better EV than playing it out. If that's true, it's obviously worse EV for me. So either I'm actually just favored, or they're illogical (and I'm probably favored because these sorts of decisions correspond well to magic).
They took it out of the client.
How you should approach every game of Magic.
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...
Or they'd rather just draft again at that point?
I only ever accept splits if I'm pretty sure I'm likely to lose, because I enjoy the actual gameplay and therefore don't want to skip a match all other things being equal. It's going to be a rare thing to have that certainty whilst knowing nothing about my opponent's deck.
(I'm on on this site much anymore. If you want to get in touch it's probably best to email me: dom@heffalumps.org)
Forum Awards: Best Writer 2005, Best Limited Strategist 2005-2012
5CB PotM - June 2005, November 2005, February 2006, April 2008, May 2008, Feb 2009
MTGSalvation Articles: 1-20, plus guest appearance on MTGCast #86!
<Limited Clan>
I hated that option on principle. I refused to partake just because that's not how Limited is supposed to be played. You're not supposed to be able to scout your opponent so thoroughly and it takes a lot of the fun out of it.
But I know a lot of people used it, and sometimes to great effect like being able to play around a trick they knew I had or save their removal for my bomb rare that they would never assume I had otherwise. It really bothered me, and made me wonder "Who at WotC thought this was a good idea in the first place?!"
They got rid of the function because players felt they were obligated to watch replays frantically in the two minutes between rounds because if they did not, but their opponent did, they'd be at a huge disadvantage. I tend to favor the removal of the function personally.
I did also have a very poor starting record for this format. I think this was because for the vast majority of the time I was playing this format, I refused to draft boros or gruul. What do you know, I start drafting those and suddenly I am winning as much as I did in RTR. Go figure : /
Hmm...I guess it is more fair but WotC has stated repeatedly that the online game does not have to mimic the paper game. That's why online has chess clocks instead of a round timer -- they would prefer the chess clock system but it's not feasible to do in the paper game.
I wonder if that feature was added to prevent collusion, i.e. chatting with the person who just played your opponent and pumping them for information. That would get really annoying if everyone requested that after each round.
Either way I'm glad it's just shut down now. I would also support no chatting outside of games while you're playing in a draft. That way the odds of getting information about your opponent's deck would be next to zero, unless you organized with people you know to join drafts at the same time (not worth the effort). Like how they shut down chat while you're drafting.
Alternatively, you're irrational (source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Risk_aversion).
The point of splitting is that you both gain EV in another commodity: Time. In any two given finals limited decks, you're not that likely to be heavily favored (or know it, even if you are). Your EV is the split since it is the average return. However, playing the match takes 20-25 minutes. Splitting and joining another draft increases your overall EV considerably since it may add another 1-2 drafts to your evening of FNM.
My store does 8-4 drafts for FNM, so a split is 6-6, and that is accepted almost without hesitation by every player since 6 is 2 drafts worth of packs and there is often a flight about to fire that one or both of those players would miss if they played out the final.
Lurker. Rules Advisor. Sleepy.
Unless you have prior knowledge of your opponent's deck, splitting is only illogical if your confidence in your deck is notably higher than a 50% chance of winning. This is especially true if you're in a setting where you can redraft using those prize packs like on MTGO. Two additional packs is rarely worth the risk of being able to not draft an additional time.
If I'm confident my deck has 50-55% chance of winning in the finals, I'll still take a split when the option is there. The difference in EV is negligible and certainty is a commodity. In a paper Swiss draft there's even more incentive, because your EV is objectively better taking a split than a 50% gambit, because the loser isn't garunteed second place.
To answer your initial question directly: You'd take a split for the sake of certainty, a more useful number of packs, or simply better EV.
Generals meant to be drafted first in a single pack of 6 cards.
And here is the actual cube, meant to be drafted in 4 regular sized packs. (60 card decks)
I have noticed a decline in splits in this format since people assume that they will either always draw their 5x removal, win with their bombs or swarm the board by turn 4. I played in an 8-4 yesterday, I won after my opponent declined the split, he kept bragging about how good his deck was, clearly he doesn't recognize a crazy Simic Deck with Prime Speaker and other goodies still loses to Assemble the Legion & a good Orzhov deck
Because of that, whether I split or not usually depends on whether I feel like I want to play another match of Magic or not.
The current system is actually a lot more unfair than the old system where you could watch replays. The current system still allows a group of people who join a tournament together to share information about the decks that other people are playing, but someone who joined the tournament by themselves will be going into each match blind. All wizards did by removing replays was increase the advantage clans and such have over other people.
Is it considered rude not to split?
For drafts, the prize pay out at my store is 8 man pods, 4-3-2-2, and the winner has the option of "going infinite" where instead of the packs, they get free entry into the next draft. Again, most times the two 2-0 players will draw, then play for the last pack/the go infinite.