I'm new to this forum, and returning to magic after being out since Mirrodin.
I hear alot of people saying that Boros and Orzhov are being force drafted by many people out there. With this in mind, i think i might try to force Simic at my next FNM. What are the key cards to look out for in this guild?
Forcing a guild is never a good idea, especially if its simply because you heard that others were forcing other guilds. Its a much better idea to take the best cards regardless of color picks 1-2 and then make an estimate on whats open. And just avoid Dimir completely, haha.
I don't agree. I read a drafting strategy guide from a pro who favored a particular archetype in draft during alara and he purposefully passed a very high power card p1p1 during a tournament because he wanted to be in specific colors. He made his signal very strong and it worked out for him.
When I am looking at p1p1 I often think "is there something I can pass here that will send a signal" - if you are forcing something and have no way to communicate it or you are not consistent (e.g. not willing to pass a bomb) then I do agree with NoHeavenNoHell, you can end up with not enough playables.
This has a lot to do with your hate drafting strategy as well - forcing works better if you avoid hate drafting unless there is absolutely no signaling value left (e.g. pack 3).
Forcing a guild is never a good idea, especially if its simply because you heard that others were forcing other guilds. Its a much better idea to take the best cards regardless of color picks 1-2 and then make an estimate on whats open. And just avoid Dimir completely, haha.
Alright, staying away from Dimir might be a good start LOL
Are there any bomb commons that would pretty much force you into a particular guild?
I don't agree. I read a drafting strategy guide from a pro who favored a particular archetype in draft during alara and he purposefully passed a very high power card p1p1 during a tournament because he wanted to be in specific colors. He made his signal very strong and it worked out for him.
When I am looking at p1p1 I often think "is there something I can pass here that will send a signal" - if you are forcing something and have no way to communicate it or you are not consistent (e.g. not willing to pass a bomb) then I do agree with NoHeavenNoHell, you can end up with not enough playables.
This has a lot to do with your hate drafting strategy as well - forcing works better if you avoid hate drafting unless there is absolutely no signaling value left (e.g. pack 3).
This is all very very wrong.
Sending signals is overrated since you have absolutely no idea how that person will interpret it. If they're making a boneheaded move (like forcing a guild) than your signal just went ignored. Too many new drafters worry about sending signals at the cost of the viability of their decks, and believe me (and almost everyone else on this forum) when we say to not worry about it. Its very important to read signals, and of little importance to send them. You're receiving 30 cards from the person to your left and only 15 from your right, if you have an idea of what guild youre in by p1p7 or so, you're cutting that guild from him anyway. Unless he's a doofus, he shouldn't be in that guild. Even if he is (forcing), you're still likely to get playable picks p2p2-p2p8 from him.
Worry about building a good deck, not what the person you're passing to is doing. Also, Just because you read one instance of a particular pro doing something that worked doesn't make it correct. There are lots of pro players out there who I don't necessarily consider good drafters.
Anyhow to answer the original question, I have drafted simic numerous times in paper and the pattern I am seeing is you are swimming in good creatures like Drakewing Krasis, Frilled Oculus, and Shambleshark.
The green denizen seems to be wheeling, it's a very good card that is undervalued right now so you can pick one up late.
What you need to pick extremely highly are simic charm and pit fight. Simic has nearly no removal so they are the best you are going to get. To a lesser extent you want one copy of totally lost, but that goes late.
What you need to pick extremely highly are simic charm and pit fight. Simic has nearly no removal so they are the best you are going to get. To a lesser extent you want one copy of totally lost, but that goes late.
I agree 100% with this, because Simic has the smallest removal suite out of all five guilds. I would add that you need to grab at least one, if not two Hands of Binding to tap down problematic attackers and blockers. I value Hands of Binding greatly, but how often it wheels depends on your LGS.
Sending signals is overrated since you have absolutely no idea how that person will interpret it. If they're making a boneheaded move (like forcing a guild) than your signal just went ignored.
I'm going to have to side with NoHeavenNohell on this one, i'm drafting at FNM. While there are good players, there are bound to be people making off colour picks (pun intended).
I don't agree. I read a drafting strategy guide from a pro who favored a particular archetype in draft during alara and he purposefully passed a very high power card p1p1 during a tournament because he wanted to be in specific colors. He made his signal very strong and it worked out for him.
Point of advice for newer players: don't read what the pros did and try to do that. They have a deep, deep understanding of the game and are able to make evaluations that you and I cannot hope to. Also, in terms of sending a powerful card in order to put someone in a color, the reason you'd be putting them in that color is because they got a very good card... somthing you could have done yourself.
In terms of key Simic cards not mentioned: Cloudfin Raptor is first pickable. Rapid Hybridization is excellent (be careful of its downside.) Agoraphobia is better than I thought (you can even use it to evolve your guys more, though it's expensive.) Leyline Phantom is pretty decent anyway, with Evolve guys it's downright good. Crocanura is tech. Slaughterhorn and Elusive Krasis are both very good.
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My Decks: EDH: Sygg, River Cutthroat , Road to Scion
Grimgrin, Corpseborn Modern: Polytokes IRL: Progenitus Polymorph , Goblins
... if you have an idea of what guild youre in by p1p7 or so, you're cutting that guild from him anyway. Unless he's a doofus, he shouldn't be in that guild...
Happens more often than you think, actually--two players sitting next to each other each open a bomb/great card in the same guild. The next few packs sent their way are very rich in 'high picks' for that guild, so each takes it as a signal that it's open. Those further downstream get out of the guild, and pack two, they continue to fight over that guild; maybe someone else shifts into it, since it seems to have 'opened up'. Because they're both seeing enough cards to keep them in that color pair, neither feels ready to abandon the early great card, followed by the great stuff they saw. Sometimes, you can send a signal, but sometimes, you just can't--packs can sometimes be especially deep for a guild, and a few of those in a row for the same guild may make you think something's open, when it's not.
I don't agree. I read a drafting strategy guide from a pro who favored a particular archetype in draft during alara and he purposefully passed a very high power card p1p1 during a tournament because he wanted to be in specific colors. He made his signal very strong and it worked out for him.
The key thing here is 'pros'. He is playing with other pros who read signals. If your playing with random FNM people then signals won't matter.
At my local store we have a bunch of new people, always happens when a new set comes out. They are drafting according to what colors they like or have heard is good so they are forcing a guild. Problem is that since they don't have alot of set knowledge they can't read any signals, they see alot of crap commons and think its open but in reality the guy next to them is taking all the best cards of that guild. So they draft a mediocre deck.
Best strategy for a new person is to just draft the best cards in the pack and by the end of pack 2 you should know which colors you are in. If you are new you are NOT going to win the draft. So you draft the best cards, get a deck where the cards do the work for you and maybe you'll get 2nd place.
Happens more often than you think, actually--two players sitting next to each other each open a bomb/great card in the same guild. The next few packs sent their way are very rich in 'high picks' for that guild, so each takes it as a signal that it's open.
This happend to me at the first gatecrash darft. First 3 pics I went for simic but he green cards dried up(turns out the packs were weak). Then I get passed 2 dimir charms in a row and I go full on Dimir. Turns out 3 of us in a row are drafting dimir. We all lost.
This is another problem with signals, sometimes the packs opened just aren't deep enough in certain colors. So you think someone is cutting you off but thats not the case. Heh, this is why alot of players hate when they open a pack and its missing a color.
Signal sending/receiving also used to be much simpler in older sets where there were a lot less playable commons in each color. You can be much more certain that seeing a stream of playable cards meant that color was open. Modern sets are much deeper and seeing a stream of playable cards doesn't mean your neighbor isn't also taking that color.
Modern sets also tends to have a much more fluid pick order. Archetypes are build into the set and certain cards are good in one deck but poor in another. This can lead to misreading of signals where your priorities is just different from your neighbor's, even though both of you may be drafting the same color.
Pros may force certain color combinations just because it's easier for them in terms of time investment. They have to test and practice constructed etc. and may not be able to put a lot of time into practicing drafts. By forcing certain color combinations all the time, they can be more familiar with one specific archetype and play that well rather than drafting some other archetype that they have less practice with. So, simply copying their strategy may not always be a good thing.
Two Simic cards I like that havent been mentioned are Simic Fluxmage and Adaptive Snapjaw. The mage is a bit slow but moving around counters makes combat math difficult for your opponent. In conjunction with a flashed in Shambleshark it can make for some quality surprise blowouts. Snapjaw is a decent curve topper, evolves most of your creatures and due to his low toughness evolves easily. Snapjaw always comsa round late so easy to pick up. I rarely want more than one though.
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I'm new to this forum, and returning to magic after being out since Mirrodin.
I hear alot of people saying that Boros and Orzhov are being force drafted by many people out there. With this in mind, i think i might try to force Simic at my next FNM. What are the key cards to look out for in this guild?
Standard:
RW Boros devotion/Purphoros combo
RGB Jund Midrange
Modern:
WB Martyr.proc
I don't agree. I read a drafting strategy guide from a pro who favored a particular archetype in draft during alara and he purposefully passed a very high power card p1p1 during a tournament because he wanted to be in specific colors. He made his signal very strong and it worked out for him.
When I am looking at p1p1 I often think "is there something I can pass here that will send a signal" - if you are forcing something and have no way to communicate it or you are not consistent (e.g. not willing to pass a bomb) then I do agree with NoHeavenNoHell, you can end up with not enough playables.
This has a lot to do with your hate drafting strategy as well - forcing works better if you avoid hate drafting unless there is absolutely no signaling value left (e.g. pack 3).
Alright, staying away from Dimir might be a good start LOL
Are there any bomb commons that would pretty much force you into a particular guild?
This is all very very wrong.
Sending signals is overrated since you have absolutely no idea how that person will interpret it. If they're making a boneheaded move (like forcing a guild) than your signal just went ignored. Too many new drafters worry about sending signals at the cost of the viability of their decks, and believe me (and almost everyone else on this forum) when we say to not worry about it. Its very important to read signals, and of little importance to send them. You're receiving 30 cards from the person to your left and only 15 from your right, if you have an idea of what guild youre in by p1p7 or so, you're cutting that guild from him anyway. Unless he's a doofus, he shouldn't be in that guild. Even if he is (forcing), you're still likely to get playable picks p2p2-p2p8 from him.
Worry about building a good deck, not what the person you're passing to is doing. Also, Just because you read one instance of a particular pro doing something that worked doesn't make it correct. There are lots of pro players out there who I don't necessarily consider good drafters.
Standard:
RW Boros devotion/Purphoros combo
RGB Jund Midrange
Modern:
WB Martyr.proc
The green denizen seems to be wheeling, it's a very good card that is undervalued right now so you can pick one up late.
What you need to pick extremely highly are simic charm and pit fight. Simic has nearly no removal so they are the best you are going to get. To a lesser extent you want one copy of totally lost, but that goes late.
I agree 100% with this, because Simic has the smallest removal suite out of all five guilds. I would add that you need to grab at least one, if not two Hands of Binding to tap down problematic attackers and blockers. I value Hands of Binding greatly, but how often it wheels depends on your LGS.
I'm going to have to side with NoHeavenNohell on this one, i'm drafting at FNM. While there are good players, there are bound to be people making off colour picks (pun intended).
Point of advice for newer players: don't read what the pros did and try to do that. They have a deep, deep understanding of the game and are able to make evaluations that you and I cannot hope to. Also, in terms of sending a powerful card in order to put someone in a color, the reason you'd be putting them in that color is because they got a very good card... somthing you could have done yourself.
In terms of key Simic cards not mentioned: Cloudfin Raptor is first pickable. Rapid Hybridization is excellent (be careful of its downside.) Agoraphobia is better than I thought (you can even use it to evolve your guys more, though it's expensive.) Leyline Phantom is pretty decent anyway, with Evolve guys it's downright good. Crocanura is tech. Slaughterhorn and Elusive Krasis are both very good.
My Decks:
EDH: Sygg, River Cutthroat , Road to Scion
Grimgrin, Corpseborn
Modern: Polytokes
IRL: Progenitus Polymorph , Goblins
Just a friendly reminder that I will drive this car off a bridge
Happens more often than you think, actually--two players sitting next to each other each open a bomb/great card in the same guild. The next few packs sent their way are very rich in 'high picks' for that guild, so each takes it as a signal that it's open. Those further downstream get out of the guild, and pack two, they continue to fight over that guild; maybe someone else shifts into it, since it seems to have 'opened up'. Because they're both seeing enough cards to keep them in that color pair, neither feels ready to abandon the early great card, followed by the great stuff they saw. Sometimes, you can send a signal, but sometimes, you just can't--packs can sometimes be especially deep for a guild, and a few of those in a row for the same guild may make you think something's open, when it's not.
The key thing here is 'pros'. He is playing with other pros who read signals. If your playing with random FNM people then signals won't matter.
At my local store we have a bunch of new people, always happens when a new set comes out. They are drafting according to what colors they like or have heard is good so they are forcing a guild. Problem is that since they don't have alot of set knowledge they can't read any signals, they see alot of crap commons and think its open but in reality the guy next to them is taking all the best cards of that guild. So they draft a mediocre deck.
Best strategy for a new person is to just draft the best cards in the pack and by the end of pack 2 you should know which colors you are in. If you are new you are NOT going to win the draft. So you draft the best cards, get a deck where the cards do the work for you and maybe you'll get 2nd place.
This happend to me at the first gatecrash darft. First 3 pics I went for simic but he green cards dried up(turns out the packs were weak). Then I get passed 2 dimir charms in a row and I go full on Dimir. Turns out 3 of us in a row are drafting dimir. We all lost.
This is another problem with signals, sometimes the packs opened just aren't deep enough in certain colors. So you think someone is cutting you off but thats not the case. Heh, this is why alot of players hate when they open a pack and its missing a color.
Modern sets also tends to have a much more fluid pick order. Archetypes are build into the set and certain cards are good in one deck but poor in another. This can lead to misreading of signals where your priorities is just different from your neighbor's, even though both of you may be drafting the same color.
Pros may force certain color combinations just because it's easier for them in terms of time investment. They have to test and practice constructed etc. and may not be able to put a lot of time into practicing drafts. By forcing certain color combinations all the time, they can be more familiar with one specific archetype and play that well rather than drafting some other archetype that they have less practice with. So, simply copying their strategy may not always be a good thing.