Hi there, magic rookie with two quick draft questions for Return to Ravnica
1. At what picks should a player be picking out his gates for his draft deck? I see many articles on draft advise and when to pick what for this set, by I have yet to see any advice on when to grab the dual land. Sorry if this question was already answered.
2. My second question is should all RtR decks be focused on running 3 colors or is it a safer bet to stick with one guild?
Hi there, magic rookie with two quick draft questions for Return to Ravnica
1. At what picks should a player be picking out his gates for his draft deck? I see many articles on draft advise and when to pick what for this set, by I have yet to see any advice on when to grab the dual land. Sorry if this question was already answered.
It depends on whether you are a three colour or two colour deck. A three colour deck takes on-colour gates very highly, just below top tier commons. This is because you will have more shots at getting playables later in the booster packs out of three colours and two guilds, rather than 2 and 1 respectively.
Two colour decks value them much lower. You only really want about 3 of them in a two colour deck (giving you 10 sources of each colour from 17 lands), so they are more of a 5-8th pick.
2. My second question is should all RtR decks be focused on running 3 colors or is it a safer bet to stick with one guild?
Absolutely not. Every deck other than 5C will ideally be only a single guild. But if you don't get enough playables (perhaps you are inadvertently fighting with your neighbour) then hedging into a third colour helps salvage a good deck when your best case scenario doesn't unfold.
Agreed with merl on both points. I will add that if you have a very aggro deck that is dependent on tempo, you probably don't want a gate at all because the etb tapped effect can mess you up pretty bad. If I'm looking to splash a third color for a bomb, I'll keep an eye out for the guildgate I need, but I won't take it over any concrete playables for my deck.
I've noticed the 3+ color question comes up a lot with players used to fnm drafts, dunno if thats because of the different skill level or not, but yeah, you almost always want to stay in your guild unless you have a very good reason to splash or are short on playables. I very rarely see decks in the finals of 8-4s that run more than 2 colors unless its just a splash.
Two colour decks value them much lower. You only really want about 3 of them in a two colour deck (giving you 10 sources of each colour from 17 lands), so they are more of a 5-8th pick.
That actually seems like a pretty high valuation. Three Gates in a two-color deck? How often do you manage to get three of any single common? The risk of being color screwed in a two-color deck is low enough that I wouldn't feel at all comfortable prioritizing Gates that highly; there's no way you're going to get 3 on-color ones without gimping the rest of your picks. That might be okay when you have access to two guilds and more power, but not when you're hunting for playables for a single-guild deck that likely won't have color issues anyway. If they table and fall into your lap, sure, but picks 5-8? Nah. Plus, I'd never even consider 3 Gates in a bicolor aggro deck. Maybe that's wrong, but I really don't see how, unless your curve is literally all double-C casting costs.
For the OP--reasonably high pick in 3 colors, low pick in 2 colors. Think about how vulnerable your deck is to color screw. If your third color is a splash and it's on good splashable cards, you don't need to be too worried. Generally if I'm in "hedge" mode I feel uneasy picking a Gate over solidly playable spells; I'd rather try to read the signals and end up with a focused deck with something like a 7/7/3 mana split, instead of taking Gates and getting a 3-color deck that has great fixing but is evenly split amongst the colors (because I didn't commit because I was taking Gates) while having lower-powered cards (because I took Gates instead).
Hi there, magic rookie with two quick draft questions for Return to Ravnica
1. At what picks should a player be picking out his gates for his draft deck? I see many articles on draft advise and when to pick what for this set, by I have yet to see any advice on when to grab the dual land. Sorry if this question was already answered.
2. My second question is should all RtR decks be focused on running 3 colors or is it a safer bet to stick with one guild?
1) Generally, midpack or so. If you are 4-5 color (we haven't seen an axebane guardian type card yet for GTC, so who knows if that's possible), then you need to take them higher.
2) I like running 3 colors in these formats most of the time. Unless you drafted the greatest deck ever (which does at times happen), generally splashing 2-4 high impact cards (in RTR, stuff like blustersquall, explosive impact, or ultimate price) is a good strategy. Then again, I played five colors in AVR (lair delve FTW!), so I'm kind of a maniac.
Two colour decks value them much lower. You only really want about 3 of them in a two colour deck (giving you 10 sources of each colour from 17 lands), so they are more of a 5-8th pick.
Wow. 3? I don't even bother with Gates in two color decks. They're a tempo sink.
* If I have Ogre Jailbreaker then I take even half-on-colour gates highly, around 4th-5th pick.
* If it looks like I'm going to be forced to splash a third colour then I taje gates that will help with the splash in question similarly highly.
* If I'm in Rakdos, I take Izzet Guildgate similarly highly (because BRu is the best splash in the format and Rakdos hates bad mana).
* In any other situation, I don't really want to splash and don't really care about gates. I'll take them only if there's nothing else for my deck. I don't like the Axebane Guardian deck (because it's almost always bad) and try to avoid drafting it.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
--
(I'm on on this site much anymore. If you want to get in touch it's probably best to email me: dom@heffalumps.org)
Forum Awards: Best Writer 2005, Best Limited Strategist 2005-2012
5CB PotM - June 2005, November 2005, February 2006, April 2008, May 2008, Feb 2009
MTGSalvation Articles: 1-20, plus guest appearance on MTGCast #86!
<Limited Clan>
We had this discussion a while ago, and the question is kinda moot. Since the gates vary (sure, you could say 10th pick, but if you're rakdos and see selesnya gate, you're not picking it) it's more a question of what to pick them over.
2 colors, I pick them over nothing playable. (Pseudofate makes the point why.)
3 colors, I pick the first couple after BR and good E. Gates 3-4 are picked above 23rd cards.
4 colors, I'm playing Alara block and they don't have gates.
Bateleur's cover the erratic situations... if I have Ogres, I make sure to grab them (I've even been known to grab off-color ones with 3 Ogres.)
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
My helpy helpdesk of helpfulness.
My Decks: EDH: Sygg, River Cutthroat , Road to Scion
Grimgrin, Corpseborn Modern: Polytokes IRL: Progenitus Polymorph , Goblins
* If I have Ogre Jailbreaker then I take even half-on-colour gates highly, around 4th-5th pick.
Even if you have just one Ogre? Or are you talking about a multi-Ogre situation?
I would only take off-color gates if I had more than on Ogre. As it is, I don't work particularly hard to get a gate if I have a single Ogre (I just won't play the Ogre if I can't get enough gates), but each additional Ogre gives me greater incentive to pick gates.
I don't grab them at all in 2-color, unless there's nothing really playable and I want to deny the land to someone else.
In 3-color, I'll pick them above something mildly playable, because I hate getting mana-screwed! I'll always take a Transguild Promenade over them, of course.
I think the reason I always end up wandering into green is because Gatecreeper Vine is too much of a sweetheart to kiss goodbye. I love you, dear GCV.
I don't prioritize them over actual cards for my deck, but I will take them happily if I see nothing I need. Which means I could start taking gates 3rd pick, or 9th pick. It really depends on the draft. There's too much variance to accurately say "I really need a gate" until you get to pack 3, IMO.
I think there are some people really undervaluing gates here, which kind of explains why they go so late sometimes. You should ALWAYS play guildgates in 2-color decks even in aggro. The additional fixing provided by guildgates makes mana far more consistent and splashing much easier. When it comes to mana fixing, each guildgate is like playing an additional land. 2-3 guildgates make a very significant difference in mana consistency, which is one of my most feared enemies in draft/sealed. If you are really truly aggro and have a curve of all 2 and 3 drops, then running guildgates lets you run LESS land because you can get your mana fixing from fewer sources.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
An accurate description of myself:
Quote from Megiddo »
You're the dude who just lies a lot and makes people hate you and then magically becomes town later, right?
I think there are some people really undervaluing gates here, which kind of explains why they go so late sometimes. You should ALWAYS play guildgates in 2-color decks even in aggro.
I disagree strongly with this. I have a good record at FNM with the general policy try not to run gates and try to make your deck as fast as possible.
Do I run gates? Yes of course, I love when my selenseya decks have a bit of blue in them. Or when my azorious decks have some red, but I'd rather have a strong two color deck with no gates.
I rarely draft them in the first or second pack. When I start looking for gates is when I've solidified in a guild, but it took me too long and I know I'll need a splash. I then start favoring the better splash for that guild.
Run less land? Please go into further detail. I try not to run Gates in two color. If I picked up a ton of Ogre Jailbreakers in the first two packs, I will high pick Gates in the third pack. I want to be able to attack with my beasts. Otherwise, I don't stress them at all. I hate drawing a Gate when a basic is needed to make a swingy play.
I think there are some people really undervaluing gates here, which kind of explains why they go so late sometimes. You should ALWAYS play guildgates in 2-color decks even in aggro. The additional fixing provided by guildgates makes mana far more consistent and splashing much easier. When it comes to mana fixing, each guildgate is like playing an additional land. 2-3 guildgates make a very significant difference in mana consistency, which is one of my most feared enemies in draft/sealed. If you are really truly aggro and have a curve of all 2 and 3 drops, then running guildgates lets you run LESS land because you can get your mana fixing from fewer sources.
This statement is all kinds of wrong.
If you're cutting a land because you have multiple gates, you gots problems. A card slot is a card slot, and 5 mana cmc is 5 mana cmc. It doesn't matter if you have 6 gates in your deck, you have less likelihood of hitting that 5th land drop in a timely manner if you cut land. A gate isn't at all like playing an additional land, because its not an additional land (if that makes sense).
When you play a gate, it comes into play tapped. That means you can't cast your two drop on turn 2, your 3 drop on turn 3, etc, unless in a perfect scenario, you hit your one gate on turn 1. What if you have multiple gates in your opener? What if you keep a 2/3 land hand and draw gates instead of basics, messing up your 4 and 5 land drops? It has the potential to slow your whole deck down, which usually doesn't mean a whole lot in rtr limited but if you are aggro/tempo dependent, then it can mean the game.
I get what you're trying to say though, and yeah, that's just common sense. if you run 3 colors, or 2 colors with a 3rd splash, the gates are useful. Also if you have a deck with mana restrictive costs, a lot of RR and BB cards for example, the gates are also useful. Good aggro decks in RTR generally avoid splashes and mana restrictive cards for the sake of tempo, so have no use for them in most cases.
And you should almost never pick a gate over a playable card thats going to make your 23. Exceptions are if you're trying to splash a 3rd color, or if you have some pretty restrictive casting costs (and they better be worth it). In 8-4s online, guildgates go pretty late for a reason.
If you're cutting a land because you have multiple gates, you gots problems. A card slot is a card slot, and 5 mana cmc is 5 mana cmc. It doesn't matter if you have 6 gates in your deck, you have less likelihood of hitting that 5th land drop in a timely manner if you cut land. A gate isn't at all like playing an additional land, because its not an additional land (if that makes sense).
I think that you have misread his post. He said that if you had a curve of all 2 and 3 drops, guildgates let you shave land since you can still meet your coloured mana requirements and need fewer total lands.
Your rebuttal is to point out that you still need lots of lands to cast 5 drops????
Run less land? Please go into further detail. I try not to run Gates in two color. If I picked up a ton of Ogre Jailbreakers in the first two packs, I will high pick Gates in the third pack. I want to be able to attack with my beasts. Otherwise, I don't stress them at all. I hate drawing a Gate when a basic is needed to make a swingy play.
This wasn't directed at me, but my reason for wanting to run gates is that it increases the overall number of coloured mana sources in my deck.
In a two colour deck, 3 guildgates can pair with 14 basics for 10 coloured sources of each colour. Normally you'd have to go with 9/8 or 10/7. In a three colour deck, you usually have something like 8/7/3 or 7/7/4 off of 18 land. Your deck might not need 18 land in total, but you run 18 because it needs 18 coloured mana sources (ThAT's what I think he meant about better fixing meaning less land) . With 3 guildgates in a three colour deck you can run 9/8/3 or 8/8/4, which gives you a manabase that is as good as that of a regular two colour deck with only basics.
1. At what picks should a player be picking out his gates for his draft deck? I see many articles on draft advise and when to pick what for this set, by I have yet to see any advice on when to grab the dual land. Sorry if this question was already answered.
2. My second question is should all RtR decks be focused on running 3 colors or is it a safer bet to stick with one guild?
It depends on whether you are a three colour or two colour deck. A three colour deck takes on-colour gates very highly, just below top tier commons. This is because you will have more shots at getting playables later in the booster packs out of three colours and two guilds, rather than 2 and 1 respectively.
Two colour decks value them much lower. You only really want about 3 of them in a two colour deck (giving you 10 sources of each colour from 17 lands), so they are more of a 5-8th pick.
Absolutely not. Every deck other than 5C will ideally be only a single guild. But if you don't get enough playables (perhaps you are inadvertently fighting with your neighbour) then hedging into a third colour helps salvage a good deck when your best case scenario doesn't unfold.
I've noticed the 3+ color question comes up a lot with players used to fnm drafts, dunno if thats because of the different skill level or not, but yeah, you almost always want to stay in your guild unless you have a very good reason to splash or are short on playables. I very rarely see decks in the finals of 8-4s that run more than 2 colors unless its just a splash.
Standard:
RW Boros devotion/Purphoros combo
RGB Jund Midrange
Modern:
WB Martyr.proc
That actually seems like a pretty high valuation. Three Gates in a two-color deck? How often do you manage to get three of any single common? The risk of being color screwed in a two-color deck is low enough that I wouldn't feel at all comfortable prioritizing Gates that highly; there's no way you're going to get 3 on-color ones without gimping the rest of your picks. That might be okay when you have access to two guilds and more power, but not when you're hunting for playables for a single-guild deck that likely won't have color issues anyway. If they table and fall into your lap, sure, but picks 5-8? Nah. Plus, I'd never even consider 3 Gates in a bicolor aggro deck. Maybe that's wrong, but I really don't see how, unless your curve is literally all double-C casting costs.
For the OP--reasonably high pick in 3 colors, low pick in 2 colors. Think about how vulnerable your deck is to color screw. If your third color is a splash and it's on good splashable cards, you don't need to be too worried. Generally if I'm in "hedge" mode I feel uneasy picking a Gate over solidly playable spells; I'd rather try to read the signals and end up with a focused deck with something like a 7/7/3 mana split, instead of taking Gates and getting a 3-color deck that has great fixing but is evenly split amongst the colors (because I didn't commit because I was taking Gates) while having lower-powered cards (because I took Gates instead).
1) Generally, midpack or so. If you are 4-5 color (we haven't seen an axebane guardian type card yet for GTC, so who knows if that's possible), then you need to take them higher.
2) I like running 3 colors in these formats most of the time. Unless you drafted the greatest deck ever (which does at times happen), generally splashing 2-4 high impact cards (in RTR, stuff like blustersquall, explosive impact, or ultimate price) is a good strategy. Then again, I played five colors in AVR (lair delve FTW!), so I'm kind of a maniac.
*DCI Rules Advisor*
Wow. 3? I don't even bother with Gates in two color decks. They're a tempo sink.
How you should approach every game of Magic.
Mod Helpdesk (defunct)
My Flawless Score MCC Card | My Other One | # Three!
* If I have Ogre Jailbreaker then I take even half-on-colour gates highly, around 4th-5th pick.
* If it looks like I'm going to be forced to splash a third colour then I taje gates that will help with the splash in question similarly highly.
* If I'm in Rakdos, I take Izzet Guildgate similarly highly (because BRu is the best splash in the format and Rakdos hates bad mana).
* In any other situation, I don't really want to splash and don't really care about gates. I'll take them only if there's nothing else for my deck. I don't like the Axebane Guardian deck (because it's almost always bad) and try to avoid drafting it.
(I'm on on this site much anymore. If you want to get in touch it's probably best to email me: dom@heffalumps.org)
Forum Awards: Best Writer 2005, Best Limited Strategist 2005-2012
5CB PotM - June 2005, November 2005, February 2006, April 2008, May 2008, Feb 2009
MTGSalvation Articles: 1-20, plus guest appearance on MTGCast #86!
<Limited Clan>
2 colors, I pick them over nothing playable. (Pseudofate makes the point why.)
3 colors, I pick the first couple after BR and good E. Gates 3-4 are picked above 23rd cards.
4 colors, I'm playing Alara block and they don't have gates.
Bateleur's cover the erratic situations... if I have Ogres, I make sure to grab them (I've even been known to grab off-color ones with 3 Ogres.)
My Decks:
EDH: Sygg, River Cutthroat , Road to Scion
Grimgrin, Corpseborn
Modern: Polytokes
IRL: Progenitus Polymorph , Goblins
Just a friendly reminder that I will drive this car off a bridge
Even if you have just one Ogre? Or are you talking about a multi-Ogre situation?
I would only take off-color gates if I had more than on Ogre. As it is, I don't work particularly hard to get a gate if I have a single Ogre (I just won't play the Ogre if I can't get enough gates), but each additional Ogre gives me greater incentive to pick gates.
Ogre Jailbreaker and Gatecreeper Vine want gates.
And my blue decks are often three colour.....
In 3-color, I'll pick them above something mildly playable, because I hate getting mana-screwed! I'll always take a Transguild Promenade over them, of course.
I think the reason I always end up wandering into green is because Gatecreeper Vine is too much of a sweetheart to kiss goodbye. I love you, dear GCV.
My cube: http://cubetutor.com/viewcube/9981
I disagree strongly with this. I have a good record at FNM with the general policy try not to run gates and try to make your deck as fast as possible.
Do I run gates? Yes of course, I love when my selenseya decks have a bit of blue in them. Or when my azorious decks have some red, but I'd rather have a strong two color deck with no gates.
I rarely draft them in the first or second pack. When I start looking for gates is when I've solidified in a guild, but it took me too long and I know I'll need a splash. I then start favoring the better splash for that guild.
LISTEN TO MAH SONGZ!
@BillyTheFridge
This statement is all kinds of wrong.
If you're cutting a land because you have multiple gates, you gots problems. A card slot is a card slot, and 5 mana cmc is 5 mana cmc. It doesn't matter if you have 6 gates in your deck, you have less likelihood of hitting that 5th land drop in a timely manner if you cut land. A gate isn't at all like playing an additional land, because its not an additional land (if that makes sense).
When you play a gate, it comes into play tapped. That means you can't cast your two drop on turn 2, your 3 drop on turn 3, etc, unless in a perfect scenario, you hit your one gate on turn 1. What if you have multiple gates in your opener? What if you keep a 2/3 land hand and draw gates instead of basics, messing up your 4 and 5 land drops? It has the potential to slow your whole deck down, which usually doesn't mean a whole lot in rtr limited but if you are aggro/tempo dependent, then it can mean the game.
I get what you're trying to say though, and yeah, that's just common sense. if you run 3 colors, or 2 colors with a 3rd splash, the gates are useful. Also if you have a deck with mana restrictive costs, a lot of RR and BB cards for example, the gates are also useful. Good aggro decks in RTR generally avoid splashes and mana restrictive cards for the sake of tempo, so have no use for them in most cases.
And you should almost never pick a gate over a playable card thats going to make your 23. Exceptions are if you're trying to splash a 3rd color, or if you have some pretty restrictive casting costs (and they better be worth it). In 8-4s online, guildgates go pretty late for a reason.
Standard:
RW Boros devotion/Purphoros combo
RGB Jund Midrange
Modern:
WB Martyr.proc
I think that you have misread his post. He said that if you had a curve of all 2 and 3 drops, guildgates let you shave land since you can still meet your coloured mana requirements and need fewer total lands.
Your rebuttal is to point out that you still need lots of lands to cast 5 drops????
This wasn't directed at me, but my reason for wanting to run gates is that it increases the overall number of coloured mana sources in my deck.
In a two colour deck, 3 guildgates can pair with 14 basics for 10 coloured sources of each colour. Normally you'd have to go with 9/8 or 10/7. In a three colour deck, you usually have something like 8/7/3 or 7/7/4 off of 18 land. Your deck might not need 18 land in total, but you run 18 because it needs 18 coloured mana sources (ThAT's what I think he meant about better fixing meaning less land) . With 3 guildgates in a three colour deck you can run 9/8/3 or 8/8/4, which gives you a manabase that is as good as that of a regular two colour deck with only basics.