I find this hard to believe. One game with Pack Rat, using it exactly the way it's supposed to be used, demonstrates how powerful it is.
Indeed, but WotC just don't playtest Limited properly at all. They play occasional Sealed during development, but not after they have all the cards and they scarcely draft at all. (Or at least this is the implication from reading 'Latest Developments'.)
It's perfectly plausible that they never had a game involving a T2 Pack Rat.
That card is an Uncommon, so you're pretty much supporting my argument that Stab Wound is at Uncommon power level!
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Forum Awards: Best Writer 2005, Best Limited Strategist 2005-2012
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<Limited Clan>
If I remember my Skullclamp history, this is why Skullclamp was released in its broken state. Skullclamp started out as a relatively non-descript equipment that read "When equipped creature is put into a graveyard, draw 2 cards." That perfectly safe and boring version of the card sat for a while. Then late in development they decided to push equipment, and that's where the +1/-1 came into play which broke the card.
Now here's where it gets interesting. Because "Bad Skullclamp" was so terrible, no one was running it in their internal Constructed testing leagues. Therefore no one was notified "Hey, we need to test this new version of Skullclamp and make sure it's not broken." No one was running it, no one was asked to test it -- hence the disaster.
Not the most frustrating card but one that seems to hound (heh) me personally is Rakdos Ragemutt. It seems really out of flavor, and the huge swing is very annoying in a race (especially if you're playing the 2/4 deck and less likely to out-and-out kill any of your opponent's creatures).
Stab wound isn't really that annoying, you just have to draft with it in mind a bit. Sundering growths & keening apparitions are easy late picks for SBs, and voidweilder, dramatic rescue, & fairie imposter do a good job too. If you're rakdos though and they stab wound something like a lobber crew, you might have to resort to 2 for 1ing your own guy.
I would have to vote for rootborn defenses actually, that card is silly good, even without populate targets most times. Last night I cast my g1 supreme verdict into a one-sided board wipe in his favor because of it. I sideboarded accordingly afterward, but 2-3 RB defenses in a deck is silly. I've abused the hell out of it in selesnya too, so it works both ways, and having one in hand with a full board makes you feel pretty untouchable. When I'm azorious I pick up 2-3 copies of dispel every time just because of it.
Indeed, but WotC just don't playtest Limited properly at all. They play occasional Sealed during development, but not after they have all the cards and they scarcely draft at all. (Or at least this is the implication from reading 'Latest Developments'.)
It's perfectly plausible that they never had a game involving a T2 Pack Rat.
You mentioned this in another thread, and I'll quote my response here:
Wait, what? There's no way that's true. You don't just create a Limited format like INNx3 at random, and a solid 75% of all cards in any set are specifically balanced for Limited. Check out this Mothership article called "What Developers Do," where Zac Hill explicitly states: "The bulk of the playtesting that goes on inside the current iteration of Magic R&D involves Sealed Deck and Booster Draft." Also, read the Mothership articles where they show us Multiverse comments (here's the most recent); they're clearing developing with Limited in mind, e.g. they discuss the possibility of people "fighting over" a more powered-up Ethereal Armor. I'd be curious to see one of those hints you're talking about, as it's abundantly clear that they not only playtest draft/sealed but playtest it more than any other format.
Now it is possible that they assumed Pack Rat was going to be a bomb and so didn't devote much playtesting time to it because they assumed that once it dropped and wasn't removed it was GG. But to claim that R&D don't playtest Limited except haphazardly is just ridiculous and shouldn't become a meme. Look at the intricacy of the formats that come out every year, and look at how many cards only make sense in the context of Limited. And the articles I've read all bear this out; I'd like to see the ones you're talking about that hint at lax playtesting habits.
Stab wound isn't really that annoying, you just have to draft with it in mind a bit. Sundering growths & keening apparitions are easy late picks for SBs, and voidweilder, dramatic rescue, & fairie imposter do a good job too. If you're rakdos though and they stab wound something like a lobber crew, you might have to resort to 2 for 1ing your own guy.
I would have to vote for rootborn defenses actually, that card is silly good, even without populate targets most times. Last night I cast my g1 supreme verdict into a one-sided board wipe in his favor because of it. I sideboarded accordingly afterward, but 2-3 RB defenses in a deck is silly. I've abused the hell out of it in selesnya too, so it works both ways, and having one in hand with a full board makes you feel pretty untouchable. When I'm azorious I pick up 2-3 copies of dispel every time just because of it.
I don't have a problem with rootborn but I have a problem with it's rarity. In fact I have a problem with all the populate card's being big rare bombs or commons. I think this is the reason so many people find selesnya a top limited deck. All you need are a couple token makers (the herald is a common too.) and bam token.dec!
Think I agree with Rootborn Defenses at common - or at least, in combination with the other instant speed populate cards at common, as well as all the G/W combat tricks. If Selesnya puts tokens on the board early and starts leaving open mana up, there just seem to be too many ways you can get blown out.
And then a Bant splash gets you counters, bounce, flash dudes and instant-speed card draw at common...
Yeah, thats the real threat with selesnya is that its so reactive, and theres not much you can do about it short of dispels and other counters. Their threats can multiply so fast if you try to play around combat tricks all day, you'll be buried in board advantage. I draft selesnya quite a bit, and it feels almost like a control deck at times, even aggro builds.
Yeah, thats the real threat with selesnya is that its so reactive, and theres not much you can do about it short of dispels and other counters. Their threats can multiply so fast if you try to play around combat tricks all day, you'll be buried in board advantage. I draft selesnya quite a bit, and it feels almost like a control deck at times, even aggro builds.
Yeah, it only takes one Common Bond to completely obliterate the "magic 4 toughness" concept. Saw a match yesterday of Rakdos midrange vs. Selesnya--2 Centaurs swinging into Lobber Crew and Hellhole Flailer (no Unleash)--just a brutal situation for the Rakdos player.
Board stall? Otherwise hopeless board position? "BAM! I win!"
It is what I want out of all my 5 mana uncommon sorceries.
~M
It's an overrun in a color pair that doesn't have big threats (that aren't already evasive). It's a very good card but it's in a weird guild for it. That being said, if you're building Izzet aggro it's the best finisher you could pull.
It's an overrun in a color pair that doesn't have big threats (that aren't already evasive). It's a very good card but it's in a weird guild for it. That being said, if you're building Izzet aggro it's the best finisher you could pull.
Agreed. I know there's another thread that just popped up about this too. If I'm Azorious, usually all my threats already have evasion, no need to splash red for this. I've kept blustersquall in the SB multiple times in AZ builds too, because I just dont need it when my whole board is defenders and flyers.
Izzet aggro wants it, and I would splash blue for it in rakdos if I pulled it, but thats it.
Entreat was strong, but it was only really strong when top-decked with about 7 lands out. The rat is good on the second turn. The angels also had the good taste of winning the next turn, while you either concede or spend a painful 5 turns vs. the rats.
I agree that Rat is better than Entreat but who are you playing against that you need five Angel tokens to win?
My vote is for Tavern Swindler. Why do they keep making terrible flip cards??? Who's thinking to themselves I wish I had a grizzly bear who could potentially gain me 3 life a turn but I have to keep losing life every time I mess up. Sure the effect seems black but it's just unplayable. Black wants to pay life like it was mana not crappy lifegain effects.
I like the card alot.... it is always playable, and has a fairly skill-testing ability which you should theoretically use whenever you feel you need the life and are behind enough to justify the inconsistency.
I like the card alot.... it is always playable, and has a fairly skill-testing ability which you should theoretically use whenever you feel you need the life and are behind enough to justify the inconsistency.
I mulliganed to 5 on the play and my only creature on the board the first few turns was Tavern Swindler. My opponent had a few creatures up and was beating me with them, and had a blocker (Lobber Crew) to keep my Tavern Swindler at bay.
I decided that my only hope of winning the game was a luck-based strategy where I tried to make the stars align perfectly. So I used the Tavern Swindler on two successive turns, gaining 6 life in the process.
Was this the correct time to use this ability? I was only at around 17 or 16 life when I started using it. Too soon?
Anyway I lost. I just couldn't overcome the card disadvantage.
everytime i see my opponent activate swindler, it makes me happy. normally he's the beat down, so him gaining life doesn't really matter. of course, sometimes your opponent just burns himself for 6 for free, which lets your fliers race his chainwalkers. i'm pretty sure i'm undefeated against opponents tapping swindlers (about 4 or 5 games total)
everytime i see my opponent activate swindler, it makes me happy. normally he's the beat down, so him gaining life doesn't really matter. of course, sometimes your opponent just burns himself for 6 for free, which lets your fliers race his chainwalkers. i'm pretty sure i'm undefeated against opponents tapping swindlers (about 4 or 5 games total)
I have never played against an opponent who has played them or has tapped them for its flip ability.
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"Some call it a Habit, Cardboard Crack Addict
Tried to pull away, but now I'm Back At it
Love is Emphatic, cards need to be played
Hailing from the BA, accumulating CA"
Yea, those are MTG Bars. What can I say, I am a dork
I don't exactly understand people who have never seen this card played - when grizzly bears have been perfectly playable in every limited format since the original Ravnica.
Do they just always somehow open a disproportionate amount of playables for all 8 players in their pods, or are their playgroups stuck in early 2000s card evaluation?
I have no problem playing Tavern Swindler—he makes it in most of my Rakdos and/or Golgari decks. I've never once used his ability, though. He's a bear.
Most frustrating card to play against from my experience (ignoring rares) is Stab Wound. It can just put you in a position where you can't do anything while you just sit there and wait to die. I've had games where my opponent would play a Stab Wound on my Frostburn Weerd and I feel glad that I can actually kill my own creature. That's pretty pathetic.
I have no problem playing Tavern Swindler—he makes it in most of my Rakdos and/or Golgari decks. I've never once used his ability, though. He's a bear.
Most frustrating card to play against from my experience (ignoring rares) is Stab Wound. It can just put you in a position where you can't do anything while you just sit there and wait to die. I've had games where my opponent would play a Stab Wound on my Frostburn Weerd and I feel glad that I can actually kill my own creature. That's pretty pathetic.
This is the highlight of great black cards. They force you into bad situations where you're options are never good. Like all the enchants that screw you over if you use the enchanted land/creature. They don't out and out kill your land/creature but they leave you wishing they had some times.
I have no problem playing Tavern Swindler—he makes it in most of my Rakdos and/or Golgari decks. I've never once used his ability, though. He's a bear.
Most frustrating card to play against from my experience (ignoring rares) is Stab Wound. It can just put you in a position where you can't do anything while you just sit there and wait to die. I've had games where my opponent would play a Stab Wound on my Frostburn Weerd and I feel glad that I can actually kill my own creature. That's pretty pathetic.
Tavern Swindler is not a bear! It's a variance machine. When you're losing, its ability is a decent way of increasing variance and thus increasing your ways to win. If you're probably going to lose the race, then it's likely that activating it is right. As well as of course activating it when you're at 4 in response to an Explosive Impact and other situations when it's clearly right.
Tavern Swindler is not a bear! It's a variance machine. When you're losing, its ability is a decent way of increasing variance and thus increasing your ways to win. If you're probably going to lose the race, then it's likely that activating it is right. As well as of course activating it when you're at 4 in response to an Explosive Impact and other situations when it's clearly right.
Yeah, it's kind of a sweet flavor card, and while I have yet to flip a coin I look forward to when it's correct to do so
everytime i see my opponent activate swindler, it makes me happy. normally he's the beat down, so him gaining life doesn't really matter. of course, sometimes your opponent just burns himself for 6 for free, which lets your fliers race his chainwalkers. i'm pretty sure i'm undefeated against opponents tapping swindlers (about 4 or 5 games total)
Makes sense -- the only time you're really going to tap it is when it's your only chance of winning... or if you're so far ahead it doesn't matter? Hmm...
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Some facts of magic:
-Terror is an emotion which, when experienced, results in death.
-The pox was a disease notorious for having killed one-third, rounded up, of Europe’s population. Smallpox, on the other hand, killed only a single person.
-A person riding a horse cannot be stopped by foot soldiers, large animals, walls, archers, or even catapults.
Indeed, but WotC just don't playtest Limited properly at all. They play occasional Sealed during development, but not after they have all the cards and they scarcely draft at all. (Or at least this is the implication from reading 'Latest Developments'.)
It's perfectly plausible that they never had a game involving a T2 Pack Rat.
That card is an Uncommon, so you're pretty much supporting my argument that Stab Wound is at Uncommon power level!
(I'm on on this site much anymore. If you want to get in touch it's probably best to email me: dom@heffalumps.org)
Forum Awards: Best Writer 2005, Best Limited Strategist 2005-2012
5CB PotM - June 2005, November 2005, February 2006, April 2008, May 2008, Feb 2009
MTGSalvation Articles: 1-20, plus guest appearance on MTGCast #86!
<Limited Clan>
In the original Skullclamp banning announcement Aaron Forsythe goes over this history.
Not the most frustrating card but one that seems to hound (heh) me personally is Rakdos Ragemutt. It seems really out of flavor, and the huge swing is very annoying in a race (especially if you're playing the 2/4 deck and less likely to out-and-out kill any of your opponent's creatures).
UW UW Gideon Control WU
UWR Loose Control RWU
GR Scapeshift RG
RU Storm UR
Stab Wound:Enchanted creature is unblockable, you lose in 5 turns.
I would have to vote for rootborn defenses actually, that card is silly good, even without populate targets most times. Last night I cast my g1 supreme verdict into a one-sided board wipe in his favor because of it. I sideboarded accordingly afterward, but 2-3 RB defenses in a deck is silly. I've abused the hell out of it in selesnya too, so it works both ways, and having one in hand with a full board makes you feel pretty untouchable. When I'm azorious I pick up 2-3 copies of dispel every time just because of it.
Standard:
RW Boros devotion/Purphoros combo
RGB Jund Midrange
Modern:
WB Martyr.proc
You mentioned this in another thread, and I'll quote my response here:
Now it is possible that they assumed Pack Rat was going to be a bomb and so didn't devote much playtesting time to it because they assumed that once it dropped and wasn't removed it was GG. But to claim that R&D don't playtest Limited except haphazardly is just ridiculous and shouldn't become a meme. Look at the intricacy of the formats that come out every year, and look at how many cards only make sense in the context of Limited. And the articles I've read all bear this out; I'd like to see the ones you're talking about that hint at lax playtesting habits.
I don't have a problem with rootborn but I have a problem with it's rarity. In fact I have a problem with all the populate card's being big rare bombs or commons. I think this is the reason so many people find selesnya a top limited deck. All you need are a couple token makers (the herald is a common too.) and bam token.dec!
Yeah, thats the real threat with selesnya is that its so reactive, and theres not much you can do about it short of dispels and other counters. Their threats can multiply so fast if you try to play around combat tricks all day, you'll be buried in board advantage. I draft selesnya quite a bit, and it feels almost like a control deck at times, even aggro builds.
Standard:
RW Boros devotion/Purphoros combo
RGB Jund Midrange
Modern:
WB Martyr.proc
Yeah, it only takes one Common Bond to completely obliterate the "magic 4 toughness" concept. Saw a match yesterday of Rakdos midrange vs. Selesnya--2 Centaurs swinging into Lobber Crew and Hellhole Flailer (no Unleash)--just a brutal situation for the Rakdos player.
Board stall? Otherwise hopeless board position? "BAM! I win!"
It is what I want out of all my 5 mana uncommon sorceries.
~M
It's an overrun in a color pair that doesn't have big threats (that aren't already evasive). It's a very good card but it's in a weird guild for it. That being said, if you're building Izzet aggro it's the best finisher you could pull.
Agreed. I know there's another thread that just popped up about this too. If I'm Azorious, usually all my threats already have evasion, no need to splash red for this. I've kept blustersquall in the SB multiple times in AZ builds too, because I just dont need it when my whole board is defenders and flyers.
Izzet aggro wants it, and I would splash blue for it in rakdos if I pulled it, but thats it.
Standard:
RW Boros devotion/Purphoros combo
RGB Jund Midrange
Modern:
WB Martyr.proc
I agree that Rat is better than Entreat but who are you playing against that you need five Angel tokens to win?
I like the card alot.... it is always playable, and has a fairly skill-testing ability which you should theoretically use whenever you feel you need the life and are behind enough to justify the inconsistency.
I mulliganed to 5 on the play and my only creature on the board the first few turns was Tavern Swindler. My opponent had a few creatures up and was beating me with them, and had a blocker (Lobber Crew) to keep my Tavern Swindler at bay.
I decided that my only hope of winning the game was a luck-based strategy where I tried to make the stars align perfectly. So I used the Tavern Swindler on two successive turns, gaining 6 life in the process.
Was this the correct time to use this ability? I was only at around 17 or 16 life when I started using it. Too soon?
Anyway I lost. I just couldn't overcome the card disadvantage.
I have never played against an opponent who has played them or has tapped them for its flip ability.
Tried to pull away, but now I'm Back At it
Love is Emphatic, cards need to be played
Hailing from the BA, accumulating CA"
Do they just always somehow open a disproportionate amount of playables for all 8 players in their pods, or are their playgroups stuck in early 2000s card evaluation?
Most frustrating card to play against from my experience (ignoring rares) is Stab Wound. It can just put you in a position where you can't do anything while you just sit there and wait to die. I've had games where my opponent would play a Stab Wound on my Frostburn Weerd and I feel glad that I can actually kill my own creature. That's pretty pathetic.
This is the highlight of great black cards. They force you into bad situations where you're options are never good. Like all the enchants that screw you over if you use the enchanted land/creature. They don't out and out kill your land/creature but they leave you wishing they had some times.
Tavern Swindler is not a bear! It's a variance machine. When you're losing, its ability is a decent way of increasing variance and thus increasing your ways to win. If you're probably going to lose the race, then it's likely that activating it is right. As well as of course activating it when you're at 4 in response to an Explosive Impact and other situations when it's clearly right.
Draft it on Cubetutor!
Yeah, it's kind of a sweet flavor card, and while I have yet to flip a coin I look forward to when it's correct to do so
*DCI Rules Advisor*
It is indeed a sweet card. I've lost all of my flips so far, but I still stand by all of them. I've seen it win 3 flips in a row in a Rakdos mirror.
Draft it on Cubetutor!
At 6 life facing 6 power in the air, I won a flip and bought a turn. Of course I lost the game.
UW UW Gideon Control WU
UWR Loose Control RWU
GR Scapeshift RG
RU Storm UR
And when it's played against me, it nearly always crushes me.
Makes sense -- the only time you're really going to tap it is when it's your only chance of winning... or if you're so far ahead it doesn't matter? Hmm...
-Terror is an emotion which, when experienced, results in death.
-The pox was a disease notorious for having killed one-third, rounded up, of Europe’s population. Smallpox, on the other hand, killed only a single person.
-A person riding a horse cannot be stopped by foot soldiers, large animals, walls, archers, or even catapults.
More facts of magic