I've posted a lot in the limited forum for quite some time and I finally decided that it would be a good idea to start doing some draftcaps and getting some feedback because I don't really ever do it.
Anyway, this sucker went 3-0 tonight and got me back above 1800 for the first time since Theros release events. I feel like I'm understanding this format and doing well with it. I've also been feeling that in most of my BTT drafts, my spells were better overall than my creatures. This draft is the first time that I didn't feel that way in quite some time. Anyway, without further ado:
Pack 1 pick 1:
Setessan Starbreaker
Forsaken Drifters
Excoriate
Scouring Sands
Chorus of the Tides
Felhide Brawler
Asphyxiate
Akroan Skyguard
Reckless Reveler
Snake of the Golden Grove
Oracle's Insight
Meletis Astronomer
Lightning Volley
--> Felhide Spiritbinder
Forest
Pack 1 pick 2:
Hold at Bay
Marshmist Titan
Nyxborn Wolf
Floodtide Serpent
Rise to the Challenge
Impetuous Sunchaser
Culling Mark
Necrobite
Kragma Butcher
Loyal Pegasus
Thassa's Rebuff
--> Akroan Phalanx
Spirit of the Labyrinth
Island
Pack 1 pick 3:
Hold at Bay
Marshmist Titan
Nyxborn Wolf
Floodtide Serpent
Rise to the Challenge
Impetuous Sunchaser
Culling Mark
Necrobite
--> Kragma Butcher
Loyal Pegasus
Archetype of Imagination
Archetype of Finality
Plains
Pack 1 pick 4:
Weight of the Underworld
Setessan Oathsworn
Excoriate
Rise to the Challenge
Nyxborn Triton
Warchanter of Mogis
--> Fall of the Hammer
Cyclops of One-Eyed Pass
Crypsis
Forlorn Pseudamma
Archetype of Finality
Forest
Pack 2 pick 1:
Nylea's Disciple
Stymied Hopes
Nessian Courser
Vulpine Goliath
Annul
Titan's Strength
Yoked Ox
Voyaging Satyr
Opaline Unicorn
Ray of Dissolution
Chronicler of Heroes
Warriors' Lesson
Pharika's Mender
--> Thoughtseize
Island
Pack 2 pick 2:
Lash of the Whip
Messenger's Speed
Gods Willing
Fate Foretold
Portent of Betrayal
Observant Alseid
Defend the Hearth
Agent of Horizons
Ray of Dissolution
Wavecrash Triton
Rescue from the Underworld
--> Purphoros's Emissary
Dark Betrayal
Island
Pack 2 pick 3:
Gods Willing
March of the Returned
Coastline Chimera
Pharika's Cure
Defend the Hearth
Leonin Snarecaster
Priest of Iroas
Akroan Crusader
--> Cavern Lampad
Karametra's Acolyte
Phalanx Leader
Decorated Griffin
Island
Pack 2 pick 5:
Ill-Tempered Cyclops
Guardians of Meletis
Battlewise Valor
Returned Centaur
Hopeful Eidolon
Fate Foretold
Portent of Betrayal
Setessan Battle Priest
Gainsay
--> Stoneshock Giant
Mountain
Pack 2 pick 6:
Loathsome Catoblepas
March of the Returned
Unknown Shores
Aqueous Form
Asphodel Wanderer
Wingsteed Rider
Two-Headed Cerberus
--> Disciple of Phenax
Prowler's Helm
Forest
Pack 2 pick 13:
Guardians of Meletis
--> Battlewise Valor
Mountain
Pack 2 pick 14:
--> March of the Returned
Forest
Pack 2 pick 15:
--> Plains
------ THS ------
Pack 3 pick 1:
--> Minotaur Skullcleaver
Chosen by Heliod
Mnemonic Wall
Last Breath
Scourgemark
Griptide
Satyr Hedonist
Satyr Rambler
Boulderfall
Setessan Battle Priest
Anvilwrought Raptor
Vanquish the Foul
Thassa's Emissary
Swan Song
Swamp
Pack 3 pick 2:
Pheres-Band Centaurs
Divine Verdict
Guardians of Meletis
Griptide
Commune with the Gods
Hopeful Eidolon
Spark Jolt
Returned Phalanx
Boon of Erebos
Setessan Griffin
Rescue from the Underworld
Gainsay
--> Ember Swallower
Forest
Pack 3 pick 3:
Cavalry Pegasus
Loathsome Catoblepas
Nylea's Presence
Annul
Wild Celebrants
Two-Headed Cerberus
Time to Feed
Setessan Griffin
Glare of Heresy
Nylea's Emissary
--> Favored Hoplite
Pyxis of Pandemonium
Mountain
Pack 3 pick 4:
Ephara's Warden
Sip of Hemlock
Stymied Hopes
Ill-Tempered Cyclops
Leafcrown Dryad
--> Blood-Toll Harpy
Breaching Hippocamp
Aqueous Form
Wavecrash Triton
Traveler's Amulet
Cutthroat Maneuver
Mountain
Pack 3 pick 5:
Leafcrown Dryad
Chosen by Heliod
Pheres-Band Centaurs
Nylea's Presence
Fade into Antiquity
Satyr Rambler
Observant Alseid
Shredding Winds
--> Boon of Erebos
Flamecast Wheel
Forest
Pack 3 pick 6:
Stymied Hopes
Nessian Courser
Benthic Giant
Unknown Shores
Traveler's Amulet
Shredding Winds
--> Dark Betrayal
Satyr Piper
Titan of Eternal Fire
Island
The matches: No particular breakdown. 1st match I just clobbered an inferior deck despite being on the draw and mulling both times. 2nd match was against U/W heroic. First game he goes first and goes Hopeful Eidolon into Ordeal of Heliod and I can't deal with it. Nothing to see there. 2nd game he doesn't get any blue mana and I stomp. 3rd game was good and I won by grinding it out and trading aggressively early.
P1P2: I feel I go Kragma Butcher here as it keeps me on color. Phalanx is super strong, but in P1P1 you passed a Skyguard, and now in this pack by taking Phalanx your passing a Spirit of the Laybrinth.
I agree on Kragma Butcher over Akroan Phalanx P1P2. If you're desperately looking for any chance to go WR aggro, I guess the Phalanx is an ok pick. But in that case P1P1 should be Akroan Skyguard.
Yeah. I made that pick with about one second on the clock. That was tough. As you guys noted, I definitely considered that I had already passed the Skyguard. I even thought about picking that first, but Felhide Spiritbinder is such a huge bomb that I couldn't pass it up. White gets so overdrafted anyway. If I had it to do over, I would have picked the butcher.
And yes, Hoplite was pure hate draft. I rarely fall into the trap of hate drafting because it really is a bad idea, but I'm so done with that guy. I figured Two-Headed is pretty marginal anyway. Most of the times I draft it, he rarely makes my maindeck. So I figured I'd avoid the possible tilt later and just forgo a card I rarely play. I also didn't see a single Dragon Mantle the entire time, which usually serves as the best incentive to pick Two-Headeds for me. Granted, I did have plenty of solid bestows. Two-Headed is logically the pick there though.
P1P2: As mentioned, Butcher over Phalanx seems logical.
P1P5: I think I'd take Grisly Transformation if I were going to take a black card here, but I'd probably learn toward Deepwater Hypnotist.
P1P7: I like Eidolon a lot more than most drafters seem to, but I still think a Sudden Storm that late is probably a consideration, especially since you could pretty easily opt out of or splash red at this point.
P1P8: With Phalanx and Shieldmate, aren't you just snapping up Loyal Pegasus here? Cutting hard into black because of an Ashiok's Adept feels a little sketchy.
-
P2P3: Really? Cavern Lampad over Phalanx Leader? You've already got your 4 tickets, it's probably time to try and win the draft.
P2P4: Fanatic of Mogis and Dragon Mantle are both better red cards than Spearpoint Oread.
P2P5: Ill-Tempered Cyclops is probably better than Giant, but that Hopeful Eidolon confirms to me that you should be white by now (and should be the pick).
P2P6: I mean, I understand that you won the draft, but even as late as 20 picks in you're being shipped white signals. Windmill slam that Wingsteed Rider and take yes for an answer.
P2P7: !!!!! Rider the second! (...I'm going to start drafting Swiss.)
From there, of course, you get cut hard in white pack 3, so it's not really worth discussing the road not taken. You end up running a large number of black cards, but copies of Fellhide Brawler and Eidolons would have been easily replace by cards of similar quality in white and red that you ended up passing.
It seems like you got fairly lucky against the deck you faced in round 2, though I'm not terribly surprised to see that your deck 3-0'd, as there are powerful cards and some synergies there. That said, I think the R/W you could very easily have drafted (and which passed right through you, in some cases) would have had an even easier time, and would have been more likely to perform consistently.
While I agree with your premise, he isn't "changing colours" at that point, since he has at least as many solid playables in white as he does in black.
It should also be noted that tapping into a vein of insane cards of one color for pack 2 and planning to make up for it pack 3 in your other color is generally fine is the card quality in pack 2 is high enough.
Yeah, for this one was between the Adept and Grisly Transformation. Neither is really outstanding, nor is Deepwater Hypnotist really. This was another one I debated over with myself. Grisly is decent and I think I probably should ahve gone with it.
P1P7: I like Eidolon a lot more than most drafters seem to, but I still think a Sudden Storm that late is probably a consideration, especially since you could pretty easily opt out of or splash red at this point.
P1P8: With Phalanx and Shieldmate, aren't you just snapping up Loyal Pegasus here? Cutting hard into black because of an Ashiok's Adept feels a little sketchy.
I've never liked Loyal Pegasus one bit. So far, I've been able to play around opposing ones far too effectively for me to really consider it, especially over a solid bestow option. In LSV I trust, and he says Pegasus is crap. I tend to agree as it seems way too variable to me. Eidolon, on the other hand is always good.
P2P3: Really? Cavern Lampad over Phalanx Leader? You've already got your 4 tickets, it's probably time to try and win the draft.
At this point, I only have two white cards vs. six black playables. I figured I was pretty happy with my black at this point. I loves me some Nyxborn Eidolons and Thoughtseize is fun. I also don't have many heroic enablers right now if I shift out of black as I'll lose my Eidolons.
I would again disagree. I think we value bestow very differently as you valued Loyal Pegasus more highly than Nyxborn and now Fanatic and Dragon Mantle over Spearpoint. I think bestow's flexibility is basically the key to the entire experience of Theros. This pick certainly took some thought for me though. It is definitely close between Spearpoint and Fanatic for me, but I wasn't heavily devoted to red. After all, every two drop I wound up playing was black, so the Fanatic often wouldn't have been hitting for a whole lot. I'm also short on real, unconditional removal, so that also makes me value Fanatic lower as I'll have a hard time punching him in.
P2P5: Ill-Tempered Cyclops is probably better than Giant, but that Hopeful Eidolon confirms to me that you should be white by now (and should be the pick).
Again, really close between Cyclops and Giant. I know at this point that I'm looking at a low curve. At the same time, I want some reach, which gets provided by both of these guys.
I also think that Giant is probably a marginally better card anyway. With Borderland Minotaur around, along with the fact that I already have some very solid 4-drops, I decided to take my curve topper right now. There's just such a glut of 4 drops in these packs that I only want to take top-tier ones. And, I certainly did. This deck's 4 drops were very good. Always good when an emissary is your weakest 4 drop.
P2P6: I mean, I understand that you won the draft, but even as late as 20 picks in you're being shipped white signals. Windmill slam that Wingsteed Rider and take yes for an answer.
P2P7: !!!!! Rider the second! (...I'm going to start drafting Swiss.)
Condescending comment notwithstanding, I just chalk this up to the format. Lack of clear signals and strange cards floating around late as completely been the order of the day it seems. I felt too committed at this point to be switching. After all, I would have forgone a Disciple of Phenax to get the first Rider, which is certainly no slouch itself. I understand Wingsteed is great, but it's not so great that I'm going to not only change colors halfway through the draft and simultaneously miss out on a huge quality card. After all, is Disciple this late not a clear sign that black is open? He also fits very well with my all-black two drops. In any event, it's not a forgone conclusion that picking Disciple of Phenax over Wingsteed Rider is even sacrificing quality in a vacuum. I feel as though these judgments so far are indicative of the overvaluing and overdrafting of white that has been such a boon to me thus far in BTT. It's almost as though R/W is so popular that people are blind to other options.
It seems like you got fairly lucky against the deck you faced in round 2, though I'm not terribly surprised to see that your deck 3-0'd, as there are powerful cards and some synergies there. That said, I think the R/W you could very easily have drafted (and which passed right through you, in some cases) would have had an even easier time, and would have been more likely to perform consistently.
Well, luck really cancelled out in that match. He got the nut draw game 1 and then color-screwed game 2. Turnabout is fair play and then I beat him tactically in game three.
I don't dispute that R/W was also a decent option, I just disagree that it would have been superior to the R/B build I ended up with.
We don't value bestow differently, we just value Spearpoint Oread differently. 6 mana is a lot for a marginal effect, and the base body isn't very good.
I also don't think the fact that I wanted you to draft R/W means I'm overvaluing R/W; in this case, I can point to the specific packs where you took marginal black cards (like Fellhide Brawler) over similarly powerful red cards or slightly better white ones (the Loyal Pegasus pack). Despite making up the majority of your deck, the black cards in your deck simply aren't very powerful: you ended up with a few overcosted tricks (and the 2 Boons), some early ground guys, and some low-impact later guys. The white cards you passed to take those black cards in pack 2 were objectively a lot more powerful, so I think it stands to reason that your deck would have been more powerful had you taken them. Your deck clearly has a plan, and is going to do well against decks that can't provide enough early defense or outrace you, but I feel like most average blue- or green-based decks aren't going to find that particularly difficult.
Also, I wasn't trying to be condescending to you with that Swiss comment. More the white drafters, who can't possibly have found 3-4 better white cards to take before that pack got to you .
We don't value bestow differently, we just value Spearpoint Oread differently. 6 mana is a lot for a marginal effect, and the base body isn't very good.
I guess I'm happier with the base. But, in any event at that point the pick fills a more lacking spot on the curve for me and gives late game reach. I'm not too keen on Ashiok's Adept, so I only have one three drop that I really like so far. On the other hand, my 4 drops are already very good with one bomb and two bestows that are quite good whether played as bestows or played on curve. So, that along with the fact that I haven't built up much of any red devotion on T2 and T3 devalues Fanatic of Mogis for me.
The white cards you passed to take those black cards in pack 2 were objectively a lot more powerful, so I think it stands to reason that your deck would have been more powerful had you taken them.
This is the point of contention, I suppose. As there is disagreement, I don't think it's right to say that these picks are objectively right, wrong, or necessarily more powerful than one another. As an example, I don't think that Wingsteed Rider is objectively a better card than Disciple of Phenax as my links point out, especially when taking into consideration what I had taken beforehand. Now, Wingsteed is certainly more powerful than Baleful Eidolon. I won't dispute that, but for me it was already far too late to be changing colors in P2P7. When that happens, I just shake my head and take the card that's in my colors. Considering that I drafted Baleful right before it along with the Nyxborns, Disciple of Phenax even gets that much better by following it up with Baleful.
There's also no way that Loyal Pegasus is objectively better than Nyxborn Eidolon. I understand that I had drafted two good white cards before that, but it's still a junk card as far as LSV and I are concerned whereas Nyxborn Eidolon is sweet. I'm not inclined towards taking a bad card that early just because I have two fairly strong white cards. At that point in the draft, I know that red is what I really want so far on account of Spiritbinder, Butcher, and Fall of the Hammer, a bomb and the third best and outright best BNG commons respectively. My second color is still up for grabs in my mind and the Eidolon is a smash over the Pegasus for me. Really, my biggest regret in the draft was probably Akroan Phalanx over Kragma Butcher.
Also, I wasn't trying to be condescending to you with that Swiss comment. More the white drafters, who can't possibly have found 3-4 better white cards to take before that pack got to you .
Now, I definitely see that. P6 and P7 Wingsteeds are bigtime head scratchers. But, who knows? Absurd bombs in their second colors? Phalanx Leaders? It seems that you are more inclined to switch colors during pack two than I am. For me, if that's not done by about P2P3 or so, I'm pretty dedicated to my two at that point. By the same token, Phalanx Leader is better than Cavern Lampad, sure. But, Lampad is very good in its own right and it's in my colors. In early pack two, because I'm not prone to switching, I will take a strong card in my color over a somewhat stronger off-color card because switching is not often on my radar.
I think evaluating Loyal Pegasus (and honestly a lot of cards) by a "this is good" or "this bad" metric is limiting. If you can get a fast deck with multiple Pegasi and other cheap evasive threats, it can be devastating. However sometimes it's just a completely dead card. Personally I think it's risky to overcommit to it and Nyxborn is a more solid card in general.
That said:
I think Ashiok's Adept is a very marginal card. The body is meh and the effect is very easy for the opponent to play around (and while a 1/3 is a decent body to bestow on it's not all that exciting). I probably would have just taken the Reckless Reveler out of that pack.
In pack 2 with white flowing like crazy I think I probably would have dumped the black. I really like bestow, but the 2/2s that bestow for 6 are pretty rough - neither 'half' is very good and the flexibility is the only thing that really makes them playable.
That said, making a decision and sticking with it (which you essentially did with Cavern Lampad over Phalanx Leader) is going to get you a more consistent deck - I just think I would have made a different decision.
Also, I'm not sure LSV, while obviously a very good magic player and an entertaining writer, is necessarily my go to source for limited evaluation - this is a guy who in his videos continually finds ways to run Thaasa's Bounty. He has a well known bias against aggressive decks, so obviously Loyal Pegasus is not going to be his favorite. Also his evals are written right when the set is released and nobody's evals at that point are going to be 100% on.
Case in point: In that same set review he gives Favored Hoplite a 1.0 (unplayable) and Heliod God of the Sun a 4.5 (the same rating he gave Elspeth). I'm sure he would be the first to tell you he was off base there, point being that looking at those ratings now isn't really going to be that useful.
Using a set review written during the week between prerelease and release as evidence of card evaluations is absolutely absurd.
You should've been RW in this draft, easily. Also, Daisy is right about his evaluations of Oread and Giant. They should've likely been a Mantle and Cyclops, respectively. Loyal Pegasus is fine in the decks that support it, while Nyxborn Eidolon is pretty much always going to be just a fine card. Eidolon is probably a bit better on average, but BR needs lot to go right for it to be competitive, while even the lower end of WR decks are still quite competitive. Oh, and Ashiok's Adept is pretty darn close to stone unplayable.
This draft seems like it's a pretty good example of a bunch of really questionable decisions paying off against mediocre competition. No offense intended, but the draft itself and sample size can't really lead to any other conclusions, IMO.
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I wouldn't go that far. In this deck, yes, but not in general. I'd play Ashiok's Adept in UB control - 1/3 is a fine defensive body and it's not at all unreasonable that you'll turn something like a Necrobite or a Retraction Helix into a 2 for 1 with it. Plus, you can always try living the dream with Helix+Wall+Adept. That's really not the trickiest combo to pull off as long as the deck wants Wall anyway, as some UB decks do.
I wouldn't go that far. In this deck, yes, but not in general. I'd play Ashiok's Adept in UB control - 1/3 is a fine defensive body and it's not at all unreasonable that you'll turn something like a Necrobite or a Retraction Helix into a 2 for 1 with it. Plus, you can always try living the dream with Helix+Wall+Adept. That's really not the trickiest combo to pull off as long as the deck wants Wall anyway, as some UB decks do.
No, a 1/3 is pretty darn awful, especially at 3 mana. This format is generally not about grinding out card advantage, and when it is, it's far more about drawing extra cards than forcing non-random discard. You're usually better off with something that can attack or at least kill an X/2, like Blood-Toll Harpy, or something much better at playing defense, like the lowly Guardians of Meletis. Adept just doesn't do anything in this format. Sure, sometimes you just need to play it as a 3-drop that blocks when you have no good alternatives, but those circumstances are few and far between, and they often are the result of poor drafting.
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Signalling is like farting: it's a natural thing that helps people avoid being where you are, and if you try to do it deliberately, things turn to crap fast.
Quote from Hardened »
I hereby found the American Chapter of the Zealots of Semantics. All glory to The Curmudgeon.
Except the format is about grinding out card advantage when you're the guy with the UB or WB control deck. It's also often not random discard if you're using it correctly. It's also absurd to point out the benefits of cards like Guardians and Blood-Toll Harpy over Adept without actually looking at the entire card. Guardians can't kill 2/1s, can't ever attack, can't ever provide card advantage, can't ever be used to kill something with Necrobite. Harpy pings you for 1, kills up one toughness but dies to things down two power (not much of a trade-off) and can't realistically provide card advantage. I'm not saying it's better than either or worse than either, but it makes you look foolish to ignore facts that don't support your argument. Nowhere in my post did I say Adept is good, but it's obviously not unplayable in the correct deck. I know this because I've seen better players than you or I using it in decks with more than 23 playables.
A 2nd (lost in game 3 of the finals pretty much entirely to Anthousa in all 3 games) and a 1st in 8-4s from Conley - with UB decks built partly around using the Adept and the 2/1 Inspired flier to tear apart hands - holds much more weight than your opinion. Particularly since as far as I know, you've never played with the card. The first draft he took it over a Nyxborn Eidolon - a card like you're talking about (a 2 powered early drop that can attack and/or trade with an x/2) and the second he wheeled it and described it as: "Oooh we even got an Ashiok's Adept - a very solid little dude".
Again, it's not really a good card, but it's absolutely playable in the right deck.
No, a 1/3 is pretty darn awful, especially at 3 mana. This format is generally not about grinding out card advantage, and when it is, it's far more about drawing extra cards than forcing non-random discard. You're usually better off with something that can attack or at least kill an X/2, like Blood-Toll Harpy, or something much better at playing defense, like the lowly Guardians of Meletis. Adept just doesn't do anything in this format. Sure, sometimes you just need to play it as a 3-drop that blocks when you have no good alternatives, but those circumstances are few and far between, and they often are the result of poor drafting.
I disagree with this, although I agree that Ashiok's Adept wouldn't be good in your deck. I've played Ashiok's Adept in WB, where you're probably winning grindy matches with Scholar of Athreos. WB I think is the best shell for Adept because it has the most bestow creatures, and has a lot of other ways to trigger heroic. When you can cause your opponent to discard 3 or 4 cards over the game, that's REALLY good. For me, it was so good that it became a must-kill for my opponents after they saw it in game 1. Even though it's non-random discard, it's repeatable and most importantly it's instant speed. That's really powerful. Of course, this is just my personal experience in a small number of matches, but it's definitely not a garbage card and in the right deck I would pick it highly.
Except the format is about grinding out card advantage when you're the guy with the UB or WB control deck. It's also often not random discard if you're using it correctly. It's also absurd to point out the benefits of cards like Guardians and Blood-Toll Harpy over Adept without actually looking at the entire card. Guardians can't kill 2/1s, can't ever attack, can't ever provide card advantage, can't ever be used to kill something with Necrobite. Harpy pings you for 1, kills up one toughness but dies to things down two power (not much of a trade-off) and can't realistically provide card advantage. I'm not saying it's better than either or worse than either, but it makes you look foolish to ignore facts that don't support your argument. Nowhere in my post did I say Adept is good, but it's obviously not unplayable in the correct deck. I know this because I've seen better players than you or I using it in decks with more than 23 playables.
A 2nd (lost in game 3 of the finals pretty much entirely to Anthousa in all 3 games) and a 1st in 8-4s from Conley - with UB decks built partly around using the Adept and the 2/1 Inspired flier to tear apart hands - holds much more weight than your opinion. Particularly since as far as I know, you've never played with the card. The first draft he took it over a Nyxborn Eidolon - a card like you're talking about (a 2 powered early drop that can attack and/or trade with an x/2) and the second he wheeled it and described it as: "Oooh we even got an Ashiok's Adept - a very solid little dude".
Again, it's not really a good card, but it's absolutely playable in the right deck.
Ok, here we go.
First of all, enough with the ad hominem bullcrap. I might not have the resume of the pros you seem so keen to hoist up as your avatars instead of using your own accomplishments, but I've done pretty darn well for myself while playing mostly locally and fairly infrequently, and I still don't use it as the basis for my arguments. If you seem to think we're just as good as one another and that my arguments have no weight due to a lack of resume, then let's compare; I'd prefer not to make this a pissing contest, but you can't seem to avoid it. Given that your primary modes of "argument" are ad hominem attacks and barnacling onto isolated and poorly chosen pro snippets, I would say you're in no place to evaluate someone else's techniques anyway.
You warped what I said; I said the card was bad and that it was only really playable if you really needed an additional 3-drop that blocks. Your calling the ability "repeatable" is laughable at best: every time you trigger him, you played a spell, and unless it generated any additional value beyond the Heroic trigger (Bestow, Helix, Insight come to mind), it likely wasn't worth it. If you're really going to play up the Helix/Adept/Wall nonsense, then we're discussing on two entirely different planes of competitive Magic.
I'll concede that the card isn't unplayable and that my commentary broaches into hyperbole a bit, but my comparisons with respect to Guardians and Harpy were apt: no deck wants Adept for aggressive purposes, so in decks like this one, it has essentially no value, and while the 1-power is cute, it's seldom going to kill meaningful things in combat. When you want something for almost entirely defensive reasons, I would prefer something that can block a Swordwise Centaur, Nessian Courser, Lagonna-Band Elder, any other of the myriad 3/X guys in the format, or even a semi-boosted Favored Hoplite than something that dies to Strike and Bolt and requires work to survive most competitive combat scenarios.
The card should almost never be picked before the wheel, and I'd argue that Conley's excitement over seeing it is actually reasonable, as black is fairly horrible in Born of the Gods, and wheeling anything that might make a deck is fairly rare. I understand that sometimes you just need curve fillers, and this guy can satisfy that need, even if there are dozens of better options in just about every color (even the lowly Felhide Minotaur says "hey"), and that he makes the 40 as a result. Hell, I've played him 3 times for just that reason. However, to use a closet case deck based on discard, which likely occurs once every thousand drafts and often isn't even very good at that, is like pointing to a goal scored in a sports match as evidence that the scorer is prolific and incredible. Sometimes all the stars align.
If Adept is playable in a deck, it's because it needs a 3-drop. It's not because of the Heroic ability, and it's certainly not because of the 1-power. If a prototypical grindy, defensive U/B deck has 21 solid playables, needs a 3-drop, and has to consider between Harpy, Adept, and Guardians, I can't ever see the Adept being better than the 2nd best option, barring extenuating circumstances.
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First, you have absolutely no idea what "ad hominem" means. An ad hominem attack isn't just an insult, it's one that has no weight on the discussion at all. Our skill at MTG is clearly relevant. Do you refute the claim that you and I are both worse than someone like Conley? I certainly don't. I also never once claimed I was better than you (although your card evaluation in this thread isn't giving me much faith in you). Why would I? Again, we're both complete unknowns to each other and this forum. I didn't argue that you were wrong because I know better, I argued that you're wrong because you haven't actually come up with an argument besides "I'd rather have this other card," which isn't an argument at all in limited. Second, "oh, and Ashiok's Adept is pretty darn close to stone unplayable" isn't "broaching into hyperbole a bit." Anyway, if two clearly explained arguments here and some pretty clear evidence from a skilled professional don't convince you that you're wrong, as all of us have been when evaluating cards in the past, nothing will. I'd just recommend you not get so upset and defensive when your card evaluations are questioned/wrong in the future.
PS: You also seem to think I'm arguing that the card is good, playable in multiple archetypes and/or an early pick. Continuing to argue those three points, none of which I ever even remotely made, is silly. There's a wide gap between those three and "pretty close to stone unplayable" in any deck. 80% of your post could have been cut, either because it's irrelevant or because I never even remotely disagreed with it.
You're taking a hell of a leap by simply assuming I'm unaccomplished. I don't play anywhere near as much or with a group as esteemed as Conley's, and while he's absolutely a better constructed mind than I have ever even tried to be, I do not think he is objectively better than I am at limited. He's a very good technical player, but I often find myself disagreeing with his limited ratings and picks when I watch his content. Also, I'm not just some unknown to this forum: I was voted "Best Limited Strategist" for 2013, and while that's certainly not something I'm putting on my headstone, it's a source of some pride, as is my success in competitive limited Magic (which I won't list for the sake of avoiding turning this into a more arrogant diatribe). I understand that you did not claim superiority, but by grouping us together as "worse than Conley," you've made the argument personal and about resume more than about content. The "I'd rather have this card" points are entirely relevant and are the basis for a whole hell of a lot of limited discussion, as a card's value is a factor of how well it compares with similar options within a format. How are we supposed to evaluate Adept? In a vacuum?
Yes, my comment was hyperbolic. No, it was not much more than a broach. Your counterarguments are basically all trumped up in this "but it can do THIS" vein, all while refuting my points by saying "you can't just use comparisons," which I haven't. Comparison is one source of evaluation, and format knowledge is another. I've demonstrated both, with more useful theoretical evidence than quipping that Conley said the card was "a very solid little dude." Once. When I see a detailed explanation of the card's value at this stage in the format's development by someone like Ben Stark, then you can shove that in my face as proof that someone much better than I am at limited disagrees with me vehemently. Until then, keep the hand picked, early-format, and quite honestly silly pro references to yourself.
Look, I'm sorry that my aggressive response has turned this discussion into what it is; I know I have a tendency toward this type of heated debate. At this stage, however, I'm not going to back down simply because you thrust a pro player card in front of my face and quote a line from a single recorded draft as reasoning why I should back down.
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I hereby found the American Chapter of the Zealots of Semantics. All glory to The Curmudgeon.
Except it is done, whether or not you want to back down. I have my opinions, a little evidence from its succesful use in a few drafts by a pro and the opinion of one other player here. You have your opinions and probably some people agree with you. You're clearly absurdly stubborn and defensive and I'm plenty stubborn and sure of my own card evaluation skills. What, exactly, does continuing gain? Even if we convinced each other, the only affect is maybe some day I will cut it when I wouldn't have or you'll play it when you wouldn't have - probably with no discernable difference in deck power for that draft.
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Anyway, this sucker went 3-0 tonight and got me back above 1800 for the first time since Theros release events. I feel like I'm understanding this format and doing well with it. I've also been feeling that in most of my BTT drafts, my spells were better overall than my creatures. This draft is the first time that I didn't feel that way in quite some time. Anyway, without further ado:
The draft:
Time: 3/27/2014 7:11:00 PM
Players:
freakyg
Type2Sucks
fmd
turn1mapo
--> CunniJA
JQA
thesaintofelsewhere
KS321
------ BNG ------
Pack 1 pick 1:
Setessan Starbreaker
Forsaken Drifters
Excoriate
Scouring Sands
Chorus of the Tides
Felhide Brawler
Asphyxiate
Akroan Skyguard
Reckless Reveler
Snake of the Golden Grove
Oracle's Insight
Meletis Astronomer
Lightning Volley
--> Felhide Spiritbinder
Forest
Pack 1 pick 2:
Hold at Bay
Marshmist Titan
Nyxborn Wolf
Floodtide Serpent
Rise to the Challenge
Impetuous Sunchaser
Culling Mark
Necrobite
Kragma Butcher
Loyal Pegasus
Thassa's Rebuff
--> Akroan Phalanx
Spirit of the Labyrinth
Island
Pack 1 pick 3:
Hold at Bay
Marshmist Titan
Nyxborn Wolf
Floodtide Serpent
Rise to the Challenge
Impetuous Sunchaser
Culling Mark
Necrobite
--> Kragma Butcher
Loyal Pegasus
Archetype of Imagination
Archetype of Finality
Plains
Pack 1 pick 4:
Weight of the Underworld
Setessan Oathsworn
Excoriate
Rise to the Challenge
Nyxborn Triton
Warchanter of Mogis
--> Fall of the Hammer
Cyclops of One-Eyed Pass
Crypsis
Forlorn Pseudamma
Archetype of Finality
Forest
Pack 1 pick 5:
Charging Badger
Floodtide Serpent
Felhide Brawler
Ephara's Radiance
Impetuous Sunchaser
Deepwater Hypnotist
Crypsis
Reckless Reveler
Grisly Transformation
--> Ashiok's Adept
Mountain
Pack 1 pick 6:
Fearsome Temper
Servant of Tymaret
Satyr Wayfinder
Excoriate (FOIL)
Great Hart
Karametra's Favor
Stratus Walk
--> Nyxborn Shieldmate
Archetype of Endurance
Plains
Pack 1 pick 7:
Satyr Wayfinder
--> Nyxborn Eidolon
Mortal's Ardor
Sudden Storm
Aspect of Hydra
Claim of Erebos
Deepwater Hypnotist
Eternity Snare
Mountain
Pack 1 pick 8:
--> Nyxborn Eidolon
Charging Badger
Pharagax Giant
Ephara's Radiance
Loyal Pegasus
Archetype of Endurance
Gorgon's Head
Island
Pack 1 pick 9:
Setessan Starbreaker
Forsaken Drifters
Scouring Sands
--> Felhide Brawler
Reckless Reveler
Lightning Volley
Forest
Pack 1 pick 10:
Hold at Bay
Floodtide Serpent
Impetuous Sunchaser
Culling Mark
--> Necrobite
Island
Pack 1 pick 11:
Hold at Bay
Impetuous Sunchaser
Culling Mark
--> Archetype of Finality
Plains
Pack 1 pick 12:
--> Rise to the Challenge
Warchanter of Mogis
Archetype of Finality
Forest
Pack 1 pick 13:
Charging Badger
--> Impetuous Sunchaser
Mountain
Pack 1 pick 14:
--> Satyr Wayfinder
Plains
Pack 1 pick 15:
--> Mountain
------ THS ------
Pack 2 pick 1:
Nylea's Disciple
Stymied Hopes
Nessian Courser
Vulpine Goliath
Annul
Titan's Strength
Yoked Ox
Voyaging Satyr
Opaline Unicorn
Ray of Dissolution
Chronicler of Heroes
Warriors' Lesson
Pharika's Mender
--> Thoughtseize
Island
Pack 2 pick 2:
Lash of the Whip
Messenger's Speed
Gods Willing
Fate Foretold
Portent of Betrayal
Observant Alseid
Defend the Hearth
Agent of Horizons
Ray of Dissolution
Wavecrash Triton
Rescue from the Underworld
--> Purphoros's Emissary
Dark Betrayal
Island
Pack 2 pick 3:
Gods Willing
March of the Returned
Coastline Chimera
Pharika's Cure
Defend the Hearth
Leonin Snarecaster
Priest of Iroas
Akroan Crusader
--> Cavern Lampad
Karametra's Acolyte
Phalanx Leader
Decorated Griffin
Island
Pack 2 pick 4:
Dragon Mantle
Bronze Sable
--> Spearpoint Oread
Breaching Hippocamp
Vulpine Goliath
Asphodel Wanderer
Voyaging Satyr
Staunch-Hearted Warrior
Scholar of Athreos
Peak Eruption
Fanatic of Mogis
Swamp
Pack 2 pick 5:
Ill-Tempered Cyclops
Guardians of Meletis
Battlewise Valor
Returned Centaur
Hopeful Eidolon
Fate Foretold
Portent of Betrayal
Setessan Battle Priest
Gainsay
--> Stoneshock Giant
Mountain
Pack 2 pick 6:
Loathsome Catoblepas
March of the Returned
Unknown Shores
Aqueous Form
Asphodel Wanderer
Wingsteed Rider
Two-Headed Cerberus
--> Disciple of Phenax
Prowler's Helm
Forest
Pack 2 pick 7:
Ephara's Warden
Fleshmad Steed
Yoked Ox
--> Baleful Eidolon
Annul
Wingsteed Rider
Scholar of Athreos
Burnished Hart
Plains
Pack 2 pick 8:
Cavalry Pegasus
Loathsome Catoblepas
Nylea's Presence
--> Fleetfeather Sandals
Demolish
Opaline Unicorn
Witches' Eye
Forest
Pack 2 pick 9:
Stymied Hopes
Annul
Yoked Ox
Opaline Unicorn
--> Chronicler of Heroes
Warriors' Lesson
Island
Pack 2 pick 10:
Messenger's Speed
Gods Willing
Defend the Hearth
Ray of Dissolution
--> Dark Betrayal
Island
Pack 2 pick 11:
--> March of the Returned
Defend the Hearth
Leonin Snarecaster
Priest of Iroas
Island
Pack 2 pick 12:
Bronze Sable
Asphodel Wanderer
--> Peak Eruption
Swamp
Pack 2 pick 13:
Guardians of Meletis
--> Battlewise Valor
Mountain
Pack 2 pick 14:
--> March of the Returned
Forest
Pack 2 pick 15:
--> Plains
------ THS ------
Pack 3 pick 1:
--> Minotaur Skullcleaver
Chosen by Heliod
Mnemonic Wall
Last Breath
Scourgemark
Griptide
Satyr Hedonist
Satyr Rambler
Boulderfall
Setessan Battle Priest
Anvilwrought Raptor
Vanquish the Foul
Thassa's Emissary
Swan Song
Swamp
Pack 3 pick 2:
Pheres-Band Centaurs
Divine Verdict
Guardians of Meletis
Griptide
Commune with the Gods
Hopeful Eidolon
Spark Jolt
Returned Phalanx
Boon of Erebos
Setessan Griffin
Rescue from the Underworld
Gainsay
--> Ember Swallower
Forest
Pack 3 pick 3:
Cavalry Pegasus
Loathsome Catoblepas
Nylea's Presence
Annul
Wild Celebrants
Two-Headed Cerberus
Time to Feed
Setessan Griffin
Glare of Heresy
Nylea's Emissary
--> Favored Hoplite
Pyxis of Pandemonium
Mountain
Pack 3 pick 4:
Ephara's Warden
Sip of Hemlock
Stymied Hopes
Ill-Tempered Cyclops
Leafcrown Dryad
--> Blood-Toll Harpy
Breaching Hippocamp
Aqueous Form
Wavecrash Triton
Traveler's Amulet
Cutthroat Maneuver
Mountain
Pack 3 pick 5:
Leafcrown Dryad
Chosen by Heliod
Pheres-Band Centaurs
Nylea's Presence
Fade into Antiquity
Satyr Rambler
Observant Alseid
Shredding Winds
--> Boon of Erebos
Flamecast Wheel
Forest
Pack 3 pick 6:
Stymied Hopes
Nessian Courser
Benthic Giant
Unknown Shores
Traveler's Amulet
Shredding Winds
--> Dark Betrayal
Satyr Piper
Titan of Eternal Fire
Island
Pack 3 pick 7:
Mnemonic Wall
Viper's Kiss
Wild Celebrants
--> Baleful Eidolon
Borderland Minotaur
Sedge Scorpion
Flamespeaker Adept
Spellheart Chimera
Mountain
Pack 3 pick 8:
Bronze Sable
Messenger's Speed
Mnemonic Wall
--> Wild Celebrants
Silent Artisan
Ray of Dissolution
Karametra's Acolyte
Mountain
Pack 3 pick 9:
Mnemonic Wall
Last Breath
Satyr Hedonist
--> Boulderfall
Setessan Battle Priest
Vanquish the Foul
Swamp
Pack 3 pick 10:
Guardians of Meletis
Commune with the Gods
--> Boon of Erebos
Setessan Griffin
Rescue from the Underworld
Forest
Pack 3 pick 11:
Cavalry Pegasus
--> Wild Celebrants
Setessan Griffin
Pyxis of Pandemonium
Mountain
Pack 3 pick 12:
Stymied Hopes
Traveler's Amulet
--> Cutthroat Maneuver
Mountain
Pack 3 pick 13:
--> Nylea's Presence
Shredding Winds
Forest
Pack 3 pick 14:
Satyr Piper
--> Island
Pack 3 pick 15:
--> Mountain
The deck:
8 Mountain
1 Thoughtseize
2 Boon of Erebos
1 Rise to the Challenge
1 Fall of the Hammer
1 Necrobite
1 Cutthroat Maneuver
2 Nyxborn Eidolon
2 Baleful Eidolon
1 Felhide Brawler
1 Ashiok's Adept
1 Kragma Butcher
1 Minotaur Skullcleaver
1 Blood-Toll Harpy
1 Spearpoint Oread
1 Ember Swallower
1 Disciple of Phenax
1 Felhide Spiritbinder
1 Purphoros's Emissary
1 Cavern Lampad
1 Stoneshock Giant
The matches: No particular breakdown. 1st match I just clobbered an inferior deck despite being on the draw and mulling both times. 2nd match was against U/W heroic. First game he goes first and goes Hopeful Eidolon into Ordeal of Heliod and I can't deal with it. Nothing to see there. 2nd game he doesn't get any blue mana and I stomp. 3rd game was good and I won by grinding it out and trading aggressively early.
Final match was quite fun against U/G After being down to three, a swing with Ember Swallower + Stoneshock Giant + Cutthroat Maneuver saved the game. Game 2 I have to mull. Thoughtseize on turn one reveals one land, Voyaging Satyr, Time to Feed, Nessian Asp, Staunch-Hearted Warrior and something else. I pick Satyr and my opponent says "blowout :p." He proceeds to draw four lands in a row though. But, Baleful Eidolon + Fall of the Hammer > Nessian Asp and it was a forgone conclusion after that.
Anyway... anybody have different picks or different maindecks?
Yeah. I made that pick with about one second on the clock. That was tough. As you guys noted, I definitely considered that I had already passed the Skyguard. I even thought about picking that first, but Felhide Spiritbinder is such a huge bomb that I couldn't pass it up. White gets so overdrafted anyway. If I had it to do over, I would have picked the butcher.
And yes, Hoplite was pure hate draft. I rarely fall into the trap of hate drafting because it really is a bad idea, but I'm so done with that guy. I figured Two-Headed is pretty marginal anyway. Most of the times I draft it, he rarely makes my maindeck. So I figured I'd avoid the possible tilt later and just forgo a card I rarely play. I also didn't see a single Dragon Mantle the entire time, which usually serves as the best incentive to pick Two-Headeds for me. Granted, I did have plenty of solid bestows. Two-Headed is logically the pick there though.
P1P5: I think I'd take Grisly Transformation if I were going to take a black card here, but I'd probably learn toward Deepwater Hypnotist.
P1P7: I like Eidolon a lot more than most drafters seem to, but I still think a Sudden Storm that late is probably a consideration, especially since you could pretty easily opt out of or splash red at this point.
P1P8: With Phalanx and Shieldmate, aren't you just snapping up Loyal Pegasus here? Cutting hard into black because of an Ashiok's Adept feels a little sketchy.
-
P2P3: Really? Cavern Lampad over Phalanx Leader? You've already got your 4 tickets, it's probably time to try and win the draft.
P2P4: Fanatic of Mogis and Dragon Mantle are both better red cards than Spearpoint Oread.
P2P5: Ill-Tempered Cyclops is probably better than Giant, but that Hopeful Eidolon confirms to me that you should be white by now (and should be the pick).
P2P6: I mean, I understand that you won the draft, but even as late as 20 picks in you're being shipped white signals. Windmill slam that Wingsteed Rider and take yes for an answer.
P2P7: !!!!! Rider the second! (...I'm going to start drafting Swiss.)
From there, of course, you get cut hard in white pack 3, so it's not really worth discussing the road not taken. You end up running a large number of black cards, but copies of Fellhide Brawler and Eidolons would have been easily replace by cards of similar quality in white and red that you ended up passing.
It seems like you got fairly lucky against the deck you faced in round 2, though I'm not terribly surprised to see that your deck 3-0'd, as there are powerful cards and some synergies there. That said, I think the R/W you could very easily have drafted (and which passed right through you, in some cases) would have had an even easier time, and would have been more likely to perform consistently.
It should also be noted that tapping into a vein of insane cards of one color for pack 2 and planning to make up for it pack 3 in your other color is generally fine is the card quality in pack 2 is high enough.
Yeah, for this one was between the Adept and Grisly Transformation. Neither is really outstanding, nor is Deepwater Hypnotist really. This was another one I debated over with myself. Grisly is decent and I think I probably should ahve gone with it.
P1P7: I like Eidolon a lot more than most drafters seem to, but I still think a Sudden Storm that late is probably a consideration, especially since you could pretty easily opt out of or splash red at this point.
I've never liked Loyal Pegasus one bit. So far, I've been able to play around opposing ones far too effectively for me to really consider it, especially over a solid bestow option. In LSV I trust, and he says Pegasus is crap. I tend to agree as it seems way too variable to me. Eidolon, on the other hand is always good.
At this point, I only have two white cards vs. six black playables. I figured I was pretty happy with my black at this point. I loves me some Nyxborn Eidolons and Thoughtseize is fun. I also don't have many heroic enablers right now if I shift out of black as I'll lose my Eidolons.
I would again disagree. I think we value bestow very differently as you valued Loyal Pegasus more highly than Nyxborn and now Fanatic and Dragon Mantle over Spearpoint. I think bestow's flexibility is basically the key to the entire experience of Theros. This pick certainly took some thought for me though. It is definitely close between Spearpoint and Fanatic for me, but I wasn't heavily devoted to red. After all, every two drop I wound up playing was black, so the Fanatic often wouldn't have been hitting for a whole lot. I'm also short on real, unconditional removal, so that also makes me value Fanatic lower as I'll have a hard time punching him in.
Again, really close between Cyclops and Giant. I know at this point that I'm looking at a low curve. At the same time, I want some reach, which gets provided by both of these guys.
I also think that Giant is probably a marginally better card anyway. With Borderland Minotaur around, along with the fact that I already have some very solid 4-drops, I decided to take my curve topper right now. There's just such a glut of 4 drops in these packs that I only want to take top-tier ones. And, I certainly did. This deck's 4 drops were very good. Always good when an emissary is your weakest 4 drop.
Condescending comment notwithstanding, I just chalk this up to the format. Lack of clear signals and strange cards floating around late as completely been the order of the day it seems. I felt too committed at this point to be switching. After all, I would have forgone a Disciple of Phenax to get the first Rider, which is certainly no slouch itself. I understand Wingsteed is great, but it's not so great that I'm going to not only change colors halfway through the draft and simultaneously miss out on a huge quality card. After all, is Disciple this late not a clear sign that black is open? He also fits very well with my all-black two drops. In any event, it's not a forgone conclusion that picking Disciple of Phenax over Wingsteed Rider is even sacrificing quality in a vacuum. I feel as though these judgments so far are indicative of the overvaluing and overdrafting of white that has been such a boon to me thus far in BTT. It's almost as though R/W is so popular that people are blind to other options.
Well, luck really cancelled out in that match. He got the nut draw game 1 and then color-screwed game 2. Turnabout is fair play and then I beat him tactically in game three.
I don't dispute that R/W was also a decent option, I just disagree that it would have been superior to the R/B build I ended up with.
I also don't think the fact that I wanted you to draft R/W means I'm overvaluing R/W; in this case, I can point to the specific packs where you took marginal black cards (like Fellhide Brawler) over similarly powerful red cards or slightly better white ones (the Loyal Pegasus pack). Despite making up the majority of your deck, the black cards in your deck simply aren't very powerful: you ended up with a few overcosted tricks (and the 2 Boons), some early ground guys, and some low-impact later guys. The white cards you passed to take those black cards in pack 2 were objectively a lot more powerful, so I think it stands to reason that your deck would have been more powerful had you taken them. Your deck clearly has a plan, and is going to do well against decks that can't provide enough early defense or outrace you, but I feel like most average blue- or green-based decks aren't going to find that particularly difficult.
Also, I wasn't trying to be condescending to you with that Swiss comment. More the white drafters, who can't possibly have found 3-4 better white cards to take before that pack got to you .
I guess I'm happier with the base. But, in any event at that point the pick fills a more lacking spot on the curve for me and gives late game reach. I'm not too keen on Ashiok's Adept, so I only have one three drop that I really like so far. On the other hand, my 4 drops are already very good with one bomb and two bestows that are quite good whether played as bestows or played on curve. So, that along with the fact that I haven't built up much of any red devotion on T2 and T3 devalues Fanatic of Mogis for me.
This is the point of contention, I suppose. As there is disagreement, I don't think it's right to say that these picks are objectively right, wrong, or necessarily more powerful than one another. As an example, I don't think that Wingsteed Rider is objectively a better card than Disciple of Phenax as my links point out, especially when taking into consideration what I had taken beforehand. Now, Wingsteed is certainly more powerful than Baleful Eidolon. I won't dispute that, but for me it was already far too late to be changing colors in P2P7. When that happens, I just shake my head and take the card that's in my colors. Considering that I drafted Baleful right before it along with the Nyxborns, Disciple of Phenax even gets that much better by following it up with Baleful.
There's also no way that Loyal Pegasus is objectively better than Nyxborn Eidolon. I understand that I had drafted two good white cards before that, but it's still a junk card as far as LSV and I are concerned whereas Nyxborn Eidolon is sweet. I'm not inclined towards taking a bad card that early just because I have two fairly strong white cards. At that point in the draft, I know that red is what I really want so far on account of Spiritbinder, Butcher, and Fall of the Hammer, a bomb and the third best and outright best BNG commons respectively. My second color is still up for grabs in my mind and the Eidolon is a smash over the Pegasus for me. Really, my biggest regret in the draft was probably Akroan Phalanx over Kragma Butcher.
Now, I definitely see that. P6 and P7 Wingsteeds are bigtime head scratchers. But, who knows? Absurd bombs in their second colors? Phalanx Leaders? It seems that you are more inclined to switch colors during pack two than I am. For me, if that's not done by about P2P3 or so, I'm pretty dedicated to my two at that point. By the same token, Phalanx Leader is better than Cavern Lampad, sure. But, Lampad is very good in its own right and it's in my colors. In early pack two, because I'm not prone to switching, I will take a strong card in my color over a somewhat stronger off-color card because switching is not often on my radar.
That said:
I think Ashiok's Adept is a very marginal card. The body is meh and the effect is very easy for the opponent to play around (and while a 1/3 is a decent body to bestow on it's not all that exciting). I probably would have just taken the Reckless Reveler out of that pack.
In pack 2 with white flowing like crazy I think I probably would have dumped the black. I really like bestow, but the 2/2s that bestow for 6 are pretty rough - neither 'half' is very good and the flexibility is the only thing that really makes them playable.
That said, making a decision and sticking with it (which you essentially did with Cavern Lampad over Phalanx Leader) is going to get you a more consistent deck - I just think I would have made a different decision.
Case in point: In that same set review he gives Favored Hoplite a 1.0 (unplayable) and Heliod God of the Sun a 4.5 (the same rating he gave Elspeth). I'm sure he would be the first to tell you he was off base there, point being that looking at those ratings now isn't really going to be that useful.
You should've been RW in this draft, easily. Also, Daisy is right about his evaluations of Oread and Giant. They should've likely been a Mantle and Cyclops, respectively. Loyal Pegasus is fine in the decks that support it, while Nyxborn Eidolon is pretty much always going to be just a fine card. Eidolon is probably a bit better on average, but BR needs lot to go right for it to be competitive, while even the lower end of WR decks are still quite competitive. Oh, and Ashiok's Adept is pretty darn close to stone unplayable.
This draft seems like it's a pretty good example of a bunch of really questionable decisions paying off against mediocre competition. No offense intended, but the draft itself and sample size can't really lead to any other conclusions, IMO.
:dance:Fact or Fiction of the [Limited] Clan:dance:
No, a 1/3 is pretty darn awful, especially at 3 mana. This format is generally not about grinding out card advantage, and when it is, it's far more about drawing extra cards than forcing non-random discard. You're usually better off with something that can attack or at least kill an X/2, like Blood-Toll Harpy, or something much better at playing defense, like the lowly Guardians of Meletis. Adept just doesn't do anything in this format. Sure, sometimes you just need to play it as a 3-drop that blocks when you have no good alternatives, but those circumstances are few and far between, and they often are the result of poor drafting.
:dance:Fact or Fiction of the [Limited] Clan:dance:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NbG-fhzyuko&list=PL04lbfeNAaS-wZnDaRRdttN4SN2n7EolR&index=3
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gAs9pnRWpJo&list=PL04lbfeNAaS9OydH9ZP2h7M9tGxtj_E_Q&index=8
A 2nd (lost in game 3 of the finals pretty much entirely to Anthousa in all 3 games) and a 1st in 8-4s from Conley - with UB decks built partly around using the Adept and the 2/1 Inspired flier to tear apart hands - holds much more weight than your opinion. Particularly since as far as I know, you've never played with the card. The first draft he took it over a Nyxborn Eidolon - a card like you're talking about (a 2 powered early drop that can attack and/or trade with an x/2) and the second he wheeled it and described it as: "Oooh we even got an Ashiok's Adept - a very solid little dude".
Again, it's not really a good card, but it's absolutely playable in the right deck.
I disagree with this, although I agree that Ashiok's Adept wouldn't be good in your deck. I've played Ashiok's Adept in WB, where you're probably winning grindy matches with Scholar of Athreos. WB I think is the best shell for Adept because it has the most bestow creatures, and has a lot of other ways to trigger heroic. When you can cause your opponent to discard 3 or 4 cards over the game, that's REALLY good. For me, it was so good that it became a must-kill for my opponents after they saw it in game 1. Even though it's non-random discard, it's repeatable and most importantly it's instant speed. That's really powerful. Of course, this is just my personal experience in a small number of matches, but it's definitely not a garbage card and in the right deck I would pick it highly.
Ok, here we go.
First of all, enough with the ad hominem bullcrap. I might not have the resume of the pros you seem so keen to hoist up as your avatars instead of using your own accomplishments, but I've done pretty darn well for myself while playing mostly locally and fairly infrequently, and I still don't use it as the basis for my arguments. If you seem to think we're just as good as one another and that my arguments have no weight due to a lack of resume, then let's compare; I'd prefer not to make this a pissing contest, but you can't seem to avoid it. Given that your primary modes of "argument" are ad hominem attacks and barnacling onto isolated and poorly chosen pro snippets, I would say you're in no place to evaluate someone else's techniques anyway.
You warped what I said; I said the card was bad and that it was only really playable if you really needed an additional 3-drop that blocks. Your calling the ability "repeatable" is laughable at best: every time you trigger him, you played a spell, and unless it generated any additional value beyond the Heroic trigger (Bestow, Helix, Insight come to mind), it likely wasn't worth it. If you're really going to play up the Helix/Adept/Wall nonsense, then we're discussing on two entirely different planes of competitive Magic.
I'll concede that the card isn't unplayable and that my commentary broaches into hyperbole a bit, but my comparisons with respect to Guardians and Harpy were apt: no deck wants Adept for aggressive purposes, so in decks like this one, it has essentially no value, and while the 1-power is cute, it's seldom going to kill meaningful things in combat. When you want something for almost entirely defensive reasons, I would prefer something that can block a Swordwise Centaur, Nessian Courser, Lagonna-Band Elder, any other of the myriad 3/X guys in the format, or even a semi-boosted Favored Hoplite than something that dies to Strike and Bolt and requires work to survive most competitive combat scenarios.
The card should almost never be picked before the wheel, and I'd argue that Conley's excitement over seeing it is actually reasonable, as black is fairly horrible in Born of the Gods, and wheeling anything that might make a deck is fairly rare. I understand that sometimes you just need curve fillers, and this guy can satisfy that need, even if there are dozens of better options in just about every color (even the lowly Felhide Minotaur says "hey"), and that he makes the 40 as a result. Hell, I've played him 3 times for just that reason. However, to use a closet case deck based on discard, which likely occurs once every thousand drafts and often isn't even very good at that, is like pointing to a goal scored in a sports match as evidence that the scorer is prolific and incredible. Sometimes all the stars align.
If Adept is playable in a deck, it's because it needs a 3-drop. It's not because of the Heroic ability, and it's certainly not because of the 1-power. If a prototypical grindy, defensive U/B deck has 21 solid playables, needs a 3-drop, and has to consider between Harpy, Adept, and Guardians, I can't ever see the Adept being better than the 2nd best option, barring extenuating circumstances.
:dance:Fact or Fiction of the [Limited] Clan:dance:
PS: You also seem to think I'm arguing that the card is good, playable in multiple archetypes and/or an early pick. Continuing to argue those three points, none of which I ever even remotely made, is silly. There's a wide gap between those three and "pretty close to stone unplayable" in any deck. 80% of your post could have been cut, either because it's irrelevant or because I never even remotely disagreed with it.
Yes, my comment was hyperbolic. No, it was not much more than a broach. Your counterarguments are basically all trumped up in this "but it can do THIS" vein, all while refuting my points by saying "you can't just use comparisons," which I haven't. Comparison is one source of evaluation, and format knowledge is another. I've demonstrated both, with more useful theoretical evidence than quipping that Conley said the card was "a very solid little dude." Once. When I see a detailed explanation of the card's value at this stage in the format's development by someone like Ben Stark, then you can shove that in my face as proof that someone much better than I am at limited disagrees with me vehemently. Until then, keep the hand picked, early-format, and quite honestly silly pro references to yourself.
Look, I'm sorry that my aggressive response has turned this discussion into what it is; I know I have a tendency toward this type of heated debate. At this stage, however, I'm not going to back down simply because you thrust a pro player card in front of my face and quote a line from a single recorded draft as reasoning why I should back down.
:dance:Fact or Fiction of the [Limited] Clan:dance: