Hey, guys. I'm not the most enthusiastic about retail limited, but I wanted to broach this topic. People are already doing MODO/proxy events, in-store Sealed's coming up (or already happened) via prerelease, etc.
So is EMN a slow format or not? I've heard mixed reports based mostly on theory-crafting. I wanted to start a real discussion on this going into (and hoping expanding further after) the in-store events.
Just from my basic analysis the format looks reasonably fast, mostly based on the CMC and size of creatures. Obviously some colors got luckier than others in this regard, but I don't think it's gonna be unreasonable to see people reliably hitting their two drops in basically the majority of decks/games. I also don't think the big mana payoffs are quite as good here, unless you count the Eldrazi stuff (much of which you won't actually need to pay full price for upfront).
Thoughts?
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I'm officially proposing we retire the word "insane" from the MtG vocabulary.
"The best way to be different is to be better" - Gene Muir
Seems like with all the acceptable aggressive creatures available at 2-3 cmc, everyone will have access to an early board state. Seems like the BEST thing to do with that is use the nice, various falter and evasion options, but then some minority of pools and strategies will be using that to play the stall into bomb game.
Based on spoilers to me it looks like a format where you want to be the curving out into a falter or charge, but you might get disappointed out of that and end up building a deck that triple blocks with 3 pikers so it can survive to rule the board with a 5/7 instead.
I'm a below average player that hasn't played the proxy games yet.
There aren't any mechanics in the format that explicitly reward aggression (I'm looking at you, renown in magic origins), but the number of good defensive creatures at common (Gavony Unhallowed?) to deal with the 3/2 menace and efficient removal spells are so low that I would be shocked if this ended up being a slow format.
Outside of mono white or even g/w humans I don't see a whole lot of speed like we've seen in the past. There's some mediocre burn out of red in the set. Nothing that's really exciting. In limited I see everyone leaning towards a w/g or maybe a w/u base deck unless they pull liliana and really want to test her out. But right now those two color combos seem to be favored in both limited and constructed formats. There's a couple things from the other colors I could see myself potentially playing but not a whole lot. I think drafting the set will be fun but for constructed play not so much. The only mechanic that really excites me to see how well it plays out is escalate. I think that will be a huge factor in limited play and we might see it sprinkled around constructed play too. The other 2 mechanics aren't really aggro at all. Emerge is just dumb and meld seems way too clunky to work consistently, even in a constructed deck. That and all of the cards with those abilities except the black melders are super expensive to play for nothing super exciting. In most of the meld combos you're losing 2 creatures to get one monster back. Ok, I'll just exile it. And another one you're losing a creature and a land. So either way just to meld it puts you behind. Creatures in most cases, lands, or both. I don't see this set being super amazing but it definitely has some stuff I want. I'm going to draft it at my lgs and most likely buy a fat pack but then I'll stick to singles of stuff I need.
2/4s feel really good in this format with all the 3/2s, 2/1s, and 2/2s running around. It doesn't feel particularly fast to me from what I've played, but I don't think aggro decks are bad if you get a good start. I think that even defensive decks want to curve out though. Early game cards in this set remain reasonably relevant late game in most decks, as there aren't a ton of big, stompy creatures, plus there are a lot of effects that want you to sac a creature (emerge, various white cards.) Between the transforming werewolves, emerge, and sac effects, and cards that keep growing, your early game eventually becomes your late game.
I'd probably disregard everything Navyat said. I'm not really sure what he's talking about. The only meld you're going to see in limited (barring ridiculous luck,) is Graf Rats + Midnight Scavenger. Chittering Host is a great way to alpha strike, even if it gets immediately removed, and both its components are great on their own. As for meld in standard...well, you go ahead and get back to me after losing a few games to Brisela, Navyat. But according to you, a 4/3 flying, first strike, lifelink for 4, and a 5/7 vigilance flier that reanimates the other component of its meld on cast trigger are nothing exciting I guess. *shrugs* I smell a spoiled eternal formats player.
As for emerge being "dumb," I'm not even sure what that's supposed to mean. Emerge is a fine mechanic, and pretty much all the emerge cards in limited range between good and backbreaking, especially if you can sac one of their "enablers," or something that was hit by Choking Restraints or another enchantment-based removal.
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Trolljutai, YOLOghan, Swagumgar, Bromoka, and Derptarka, the Elder Dragons.
Looks pretty medium, probably a step slower than SOIx3 with less explosive werewolf/vampire/human draws, with you less likely to get punished for missing your 2-drop.
Meld will only see play and maybe get triggered every once in a while in limited and maybe some casual decks for newer players that like the idea. There's entirely too much that goes into it. Yes there is the angel that can regenerate her other half to meld into brisela but I don't see it being as effective as you think it will be given that one of them costs 5 and the other costs 7 to play. For a lot of players those are going to be hard to get into play and you don't want too many of them in your deck, especially if you're already running 2-3 avacyn. The only meld I see useful and easy to consistently pull off is the one with the land. Emerge might be useful sometimes but you're either over paying for the creature or sacrificing one of your other creatures to play it at what it should've costed to begin with. It's dumb for that exact reason. And no, I'm not spoiled, but I did come up in a time where slivers were the archetype to run and rancor was relevant in standard. And I'm not talking m14 either. I'm talking about tempest block thru masques block. After tempest block rotated out of standard it was all enchantments or big stompy things and occasionally you'd run across a goblin deck that was fast as *****.
Gisela costs 4, not 5, and is a very pushed creature all on her own. Yes, Bruna costs 7, but she reanimates any angel or human on cast trigger, so even if she's countered or immediately removed, she'll bring back a Gisela. Count on seeing many decks with 3-4 Gisela and 2-3 Bruna.
Anyway, I digress, this topic is about limited, and the speed of the format. I'm in agreement with Golden; pretty medium speed.
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Trolljutai, YOLOghan, Swagumgar, Bromoka, and Derptarka, the Elder Dragons.
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So is EMN a slow format or not? I've heard mixed reports based mostly on theory-crafting. I wanted to start a real discussion on this going into (and hoping expanding further after) the in-store events.
Just from my basic analysis the format looks reasonably fast, mostly based on the CMC and size of creatures. Obviously some colors got luckier than others in this regard, but I don't think it's gonna be unreasonable to see people reliably hitting their two drops in basically the majority of decks/games. I also don't think the big mana payoffs are quite as good here, unless you count the Eldrazi stuff (much of which you won't actually need to pay full price for upfront).
Thoughts?
I'm officially proposing we retire the word "insane" from the MtG vocabulary.
"The best way to be different is to be better" - Gene Muir
Cubes:
Modern Banlist Cube
Monocolor Budget Cube
Based on spoilers to me it looks like a format where you want to be the curving out into a falter or charge, but you might get disappointed out of that and end up building a deck that triple blocks with 3 pikers so it can survive to rule the board with a 5/7 instead.
I'm a below average player that hasn't played the proxy games yet.
I'd probably disregard everything Navyat said. I'm not really sure what he's talking about. The only meld you're going to see in limited (barring ridiculous luck,) is Graf Rats + Midnight Scavenger. Chittering Host is a great way to alpha strike, even if it gets immediately removed, and both its components are great on their own. As for meld in standard...well, you go ahead and get back to me after losing a few games to Brisela, Navyat. But according to you, a 4/3 flying, first strike, lifelink for 4, and a 5/7 vigilance flier that reanimates the other component of its meld on cast trigger are nothing exciting I guess. *shrugs* I smell a spoiled eternal formats player.
As for emerge being "dumb," I'm not even sure what that's supposed to mean. Emerge is a fine mechanic, and pretty much all the emerge cards in limited range between good and backbreaking, especially if you can sac one of their "enablers," or something that was hit by Choking Restraints or another enchantment-based removal.
Anyway, I digress, this topic is about limited, and the speed of the format. I'm in agreement with Golden; pretty medium speed.