Now that the full spoiler is up, we get to see all of the emerge cards, a mechanic that had me...hmm. Not pleased.
Looking at all of them, I'm really surprised they aren't more efficient. All of their hard mana costs are absolutely atrocious. Of course, some games everyone gets a bit flooded and you DO end up with nine mana, and then it's nice to have the option, but I certainly wouldn't play it for that. So it's relying pretty heavily on being able to sacrifice a creature to lower the cost.
Let's just look at the new insect one, it of the horrid swarm. How much would you pay for that creature, sans emerge? I'd estimate probably 5. At 5 it'd be quite good, at 6 it'd be a bit overcosted but still playable. The emerge cost is 7. So to get it down to 5, you're sacking a bear. Well, sacking a bear and replacing it with 2 1/1 tokens is a bit of a wash, so mostly you're paying 5 mana for a 4/4, and that's only if you've got a bear to sack in the first place. Otherwise you might have to trade something more valuable, at which point it starts looking more like you're paying 3-4 mana for a few tokens and maybe a minor upgrade to one of your creatures into a 4/4. Of course, flexibility is great, but that flexibility is predicated on having a selection of creatures to sacrifice, which often won't be the case. And worse, sometimes you won't have any creatures at all, and then you're just screwed.
Ok, so let's look at the blue common, wretched griff. Again, the cost is pretty prohibitive without emerge. So let's say you're sacrificing a bear. In this case, you get the card back, so that's a bonus. So basically you're now paying 5 mana to give a creature +1/+2 and flying (and summoning sickness). You do draw a card, but that effect is worth 2 mana tops, is 3 mana at all reasonable to pay just to add a card draw off of it? And if you're sacking a 3/3 for 3, now you're paying only 4, but only to give it +0/+1 and flying. And of course it looks worse if you start sacking anything bigger.
Granted, the sweet blowout here is to sacrifice a creature that's been unfavorably enchanted, and there is a new common pacifism in this set. But with sleep paralysis and bound by moonsilver relegated to just one pack, that hardly seems like an upgrade, especially since unlike those cards, the new one can exile the creature if the enchantment's controller gets bored. I daresay it'll be pretty rare to play against someone with more than 1-2 of those enchantments, so it seems like a board-in situation at best.
There are a few pretty decent enablers, granted. enlightened maniac and exultant cultist in blue, and foul emissary and primal druid in green. Unfortunately, enlightened maniac seems pretty awful if you're not going pretty deep on emerge, as does foul emissary. primal druid seems pretty bad if you can't reliably sac it either, and I suspect that the remainder - exultant cultist - will be a reasonably high pick for other decks, which means in order to make this deck work you'll have to commit to a bunch of cards that will suck if it doesn't come together.
Overall, the mechanic looks way too conservative to me - both costs seem ridiculously expensive, seemingly in the name of flexibility that only exists in the board-stall situation under which you can probably win with any number of other, more practical cards. I imagine once in a blue moon someone will have a deck stacked with enablers that manages to speed out eldrazi on turn 4-5, but even then they don't seem particularly overpowered.
Am I missing something here? Are they better than they look?
Emerge is a very good limited mechanic. You should essentially view it as a pump spell w/ sure fire benefits. I personally think the Gryff is the best one of the bunch overall when compared to the other non-rare/mythic Emerge cards. I cannot wait to play with them personally. Also, when a game reaches the point of a stalemate, you are happy to cash in your useless creature for one with some major upsides.
Give me an example of a normal creature (i.e. not the enabler creatures I mentioned) that you'd be happy to sacrifice for the griff. Are you happy sacking a bear? A centaur? a hill giant? At what point is it actually worth it? Because I don't see any point along the curve where I'm happy to sac for such a small bonus.
I was surprised that green doesn't seem to have good common enablers; with Emerge seemingly being the u/g draft archetype, it's kind of weird that you're so dependent on just one of the two colors to enable your centerpiece mechanic.
That said, the two common blue enablers seem really solid to me. I think Enlightened Maniac in particular may be a lot better than it looks. 4 mana makes literally any Emerge cost quite affordable. And while a 4-mana 3/2 isn't something you'd play on its own, it is large enough to trade with most 3-4 mana attackers, which means it negates most of the tempo cost of spending turn 4 setting up an emerge card.
Wretched Gryff seems good because it honestly doesn't need much enabling. If you have a good enabler it's obviously great, but with the cantrip and the relatively cheap Emerge, sacrificing a regular 2- or 3-drop that's not doing too much isn't bad, so it's unlikely to get stuck in your hand.
Emerge is a very good limited mechanic. You should essentially view it as a pump spell w/ sure fire benefits. I personally think the Gryff is the best one of the bunch overall when compared to the other non-rare/mythic Emerge cards. I cannot wait to play with them personally. Also, when a game reaches the point of a stalemate, you are happy to cash in your useless creature for one with some major upsides.
Give me an example of a normal creature (i.e. not the enabler creatures I mentioned) that you'd be happy to sacrifice for the griff. Are you happy sacking a bear? A centaur? a hill giant? At what point is it actually worth it? Because I don't see any point along the curve where I'm happy to sac for such a small bonus.
I would not put the Gryff in my deck with the intention of sacrificing a bear, but if I had a bear that wasn't doing anything, I'm not unhappy sacrificing it to cast the Gryff.
After looking at the spoilers, creatures are very small with the exception of werewolves and emerge creatures, so your emerge creature is likely to be the biggest thing on the board.
I think the emerge cards don't look great, but they are quite versatile. The ideal modes are sacrifice a synergy creature or hardcasting them late in the game, but if you have to you can sacrifice a real creature to help get them out. After playing a few test games they seem quite playable.
I am fairly certain they are better than they look, simply due to the sheer amounts of flexibility they offer. Its sort of like an X spell where even though any one of the modes isnt particularly efficient, the sum of the parts and flexibility of casting it whenever makes it pretty good. Here are a bunch of random thoughts about my impressions of the mechanic:
1. this being a small set means that youll see a lot of common enablers. Both common enablers in blue seem pretty playable and roughly along the same power level as the 1/1 owl in DTK for exploiting, so saccing one of them wont be an uncommon ocurrance. Green is more questionable, but has a decent payoff in the bloodbriar at common (no good enablers though, which is questionable)
2. this seems like a format where the removal is garbage and creatures are tiny, so emerging any of the fatty uncommons or even just the 4/4 on turn 4-5 will probably go a long way towards you the board. There seem to be a lot of 3/2s and 3/3s and not a lot of 4 power guys, so upgrading your 3 mana 3/2 into a 4/4 and 2 1/1s seems fine since the 1/1s trade with their 3/2 and the 4/4 is just bigger than most things in the format. That being said, the red 3 mana 4/3 common could end up being oppressive so maybe the 4/4 is too small.
3. The uncommons seem way better than the commons, as they generally have the critical 5 toughness to outfat every other non emerge creature in the format, and generally great etb triggers. Lashweed lurker is basically a roil spout, for instance.
The gryff seems like a card that is around the 2.5 level p1p1. 2 common enablers for it means that playing it is probably among the most powerful things blue can do at common, and most decks will want one as a mana sink late game anyways.
The green common is probably closer to a 2.0. Greens commons are far less exciting for this particular strategy, and the base cost is much more prohibitive than the gryff to make it a good lategame manasink. That being said, I wouldnt be surprised if im undervaluing just sacing a woodland patrol into this guy, since the 4/4 body is enormous in this format.
The uncommons like lashweed lurker and drownyard behemoth seem like easy 3.5s though, so dont count out the mechanic just yet!
I would be happy to sacrifice a Bear for most of them. It really depends on what the board is like as well. But most of the time, any outclassed creature will do. In the end you want to push through for damage and these Emerge creatures all force a reaction from your opponent. -- Let me just say though; Drawing two cards is not a small bonus.
Ah, I didnt address otherpoints you made so let me try to do that:
Not having creatures to sac makes flexibility worse - yes, but this card should be treated as a latw game play anyways. A random 6 mana creature would be rotting in your hand as well, and if you miss your 2/3 drop, i dont know if you were winning that gamr anyways.
I like to think of these cards more in terms of auras, so saccing a bear is like getting +2/+2 and 2 tokens, which is similarish to knightly valor and was a fine card. This is obviously weaker comparatibility, but clearly has a lot more flexibility.
Enlightened maniac being awful without emerge - not sure I agree. 3/2 seems like it generally trades with most things in this format, so 4 mana for a 3/2 and a 0/2 that ends up being roughly 3-4 life and a potential body for the equipment/other shenanigans in the format seems like its playable filler (1.5-2.0?)
Wretched griff - emerge costs 6, so saccing a bear makes the card cost 4 mana, not 5. 3 mana 3/3s are abive curve in this set, so youre looking more at saccing a 3 mana 3/2 or 2/3 for an extra 2 stats and flying. While this isnt great, the fact that it cantrips means that you are only spending tempo to improve your board state as opposed to cards. Its like a turn 4 true faith censer where while it isnt the most tempoy thing you can do, you still get enough value out of the transaction that its generally fine. Also worth noting that 4 toughness is key in this format, dodging all cheap common removal and blocking favoeably vs the swarms of hill giants and 3/2s in the format.
Blue in particular seems well positioned to use emerge (although the color seems pretty mediocre in general...), so im sure that archetype is a thing in some shape or form. Its probably like madness where it can only support 1.5 drafters, but it will at least have power plays and do things compared to something like UB zombies in SoI which just didnt do anything meaningful.
I mean, people happily played Youthful Scholar to enable Exploit, right? Enlightened Maniac is at lower rarity and, to me, seems at least as good. Yes, less raw card advantage, but the tempo hit you took from playing a 4-mana 2/2 that you didn't want to block with was atrocious, and this lets you actually use the relevant body while still getting the sacrifice enabler.
I mean, people happily played Youthful Scholar to enable Exploit, right? Enlightened Maniac is at lower rarity and, to me, seems at least as good. Yes, less raw card advantage, but the tempo hit you took from playing a 4-mana 2/2 that you didn't want to block with was atrocious, and this lets you actually use the relevant body while still getting the sacrifice enabler.
Youthful scholar was great with or without exploit, and I was super happy to block if I was trading or forcing a trick. Also there were a lot more exploit creatures. Enlightened maniac only seems good if you're sacking it for cmc value, which is only available on a few commons and uncommons. Just doesn't seem dense enough.
Ah, I didnt address otherpoints you made so let me try to do that:
Not having creatures to sac makes flexibility worse - yes, but this card should be treated as a latw game play anyways. A random 6 mana creature would be rotting in your hand as well, and if you miss your 2/3 drop, i dont know if you were winning that gamr anyways.
I like to think of these cards more in terms of auras, so saccing a bear is like getting +2/+2 and 2 tokens, which is similarish to knightly valor and was a fine card. This is obviously weaker comparatibility, but clearly has a lot more flexibility.
Enlightened maniac being awful without emerge - not sure I agree. 3/2 seems like it generally trades with most things in this format, so 4 mana for a 3/2 and a 0/2 that ends up being roughly 3-4 life and a potential body for the equipment/other shenanigans in the format seems like its playable filler (1.5-2.0?)
Wretched griff - emerge costs 6, so saccing a bear makes the card cost 4 mana, not 5. 3 mana 3/3s are abive curve in this set, so youre looking more at saccing a 3 mana 3/2 or 2/3 for an extra 2 stats and flying. While this isnt great, the fact that it cantrips means that you are only spending tempo to improve your board state as opposed to cards. Its like a turn 4 true faith censer where while it isnt the most tempoy thing you can do, you still get enough value out of the transaction that its generally fine. Also worth noting that 4 toughness is key in this format, dodging all cheap common removal and blocking favoeably vs the swarms of hill giants and 3/2s in the format.
Blue in particular seems well positioned to use emerge (although the color seems pretty mediocre in general...), so im sure that archetype is a thing in some shape or form. Its probably like madness where it can only support 1.5 drafters, but it will at least have power plays and do things compared to something like UB zombies in SoI which just didnt do anything meaningful.
The thing about the emerge creatures compared to other 7-8-9 mana creatures is that they sort of suck at that cost. You can't really compare them to 6 mana creatures since none of them cost 6, and even then some of the emerge creatures I wouldn't play if they cost 6.
Auras like knightly valor are imo better, because that creature doesn't have summoning sickness. In this case, you don't get the chance to attack right away. Compared to knightly valor, I'd take the 2/2 vigilance over 2 1/1s probably, and I'd take a vigilant 4/4 attacking this turn way over a non-vigilant 4/4 that can't.
I feel like the argument is "But you have more flexibility! you could sack something else if you need more/less mana, so even though it's worse than knightly valor on a 2/2, it might be cheaper if you sack something big, or be more powerful if you don't need to sack at all!" But the problem I have with that argument is that it doesn't take into account the times when you have no options at all. It's not really flexibility if it requires that you have a bunch of setup just to have options. Sometimes you won't have any creatures on board. Or your only creature will be thornhide wolves or something you don't want to sack. You only REALLY have flexibility if you're in a board stall, which is what blue-green was good at already, except with cards that sometimes weren't total garbage in other situations.
I mean, I don't necessarily think they're all totally unplayable. Sometimes you'll have a bunch of enablers and it'll be cool, and maybe a few of them (I think I like lashweed lurker the best?) are decent without support. But in terms of being THE blue-green strategy, it looks really really bad.
Ah. I misread Wretched Gryff then. Haha! My opinion of the Emerge creatures still stands however.
Dude, you just found out the creature draws one fewer card and you still like it? That's like finding out that jace's ingenuity draws 2 instead of 3 and still liking it o_O
Oh, and it case there was any doubt, none of these are actually colorless. There isn't a single one I'd ever want to play off-color; paying "full retail" for an emerge creature is an in-case-of-flood backup plan. I think the spot for these is that they're always played on-color, with ~ one emerge creature being okay if you're not drafting Emerge as an archetype, and more allowed only if you're actively enabling them, much like most of the Delve cards.
Too bad there weren't any cheaper Emerge creatures. It would have been a nice enabler for its own mechanic.
I agree the green guy that makes tokens looks kind of bad, but the rest look at least playable to me, and the rare ones are excellent. Usual caveats apply of not wanting too many 6+ mana creatures in your deck, of course.
The flexibility argument is meant mostly for the average case scenario where you play this card, where you have this in your hand with some sort of board state. Lets say you have this card and a 3 mana 3/2 in your opening hand. You can base your play around the fact that you want to emerge this, and not do something like trade your guy in order to get the emerge off if you want to cast it on turn 4 or whatever. I think the odds of this being completely stranded in your hand will not come up that often simply because you can play in such a way to mitigate the downside. There is definitely some amount of risk to the card being dead, but to me it feels low enough that the odds of these cards actually being useful is high enough for it to be worth playing at least 1 in most cases.
Regarding auras, I agree that auras are better as well due to not having summoning sickness, but there is some amount of upside with emerge, such as not being blown out by an instant speed removal spell (and therefore better protected vs cards such as the red shock and blue bounce spell).
I agree with you that I would only be comfortable playing 1 or 2 of these cards in an average deck, and looking at your posts, think that were probably on the same wavelength with these cards. Im guessing that you just had way higher expectations for the mechanic at common/uncommon than I did.
The arguments to make these emerge guys sound ok sound like "you either take 1 of these inconsistent emerge fatties, or you have no way to come out ahead on a stalled small creature board state ever."
Isn't there plenty of answers in the set that can solve that problem more reliably? Savage Alliance, Vildin Pack Outcast, hard removal, Shrill Howler, Ulvenwald Captive... etc. There's 5 and six butts in the set that don't totally blow up in your face. I'm sure the emerge archetype will work if you get enough of the pieces, just like anything works if it is underdrafted enough at the table, but "take one of these for your normal deck" seems like a pretty hard sell to me for all but the highest quality emergers, if that.
Most of the emerge cards seem very good to me, with the exception of the commons. Sacrificing a generic 3-drop to get just a bigger creature is similar to putting an enchantment on the 3-drop, which opens up to a 2-for-1, so I do not like that. However, the non-common ones have other effects which are much more than just making a big creature and those effects plus the big creature make emerge worth it if you are playing the color(s) for the card.
Most of the emerge cards seem very good to me, with the exception of the commons. Sacrificing a generic 3-drop to get just a bigger creature is similar to putting an enchantment on the 3-drop, which opens up to a 2-for-1, so I do not like that. However, the non-common ones have other effects which are much more than just making a big creature and those effects plus the big creature make emerge worth it if you are playing the color(s) for the card.
Well, out of the uncommons, abundant maw seems simply horrible, the etb is so lame and the body is so easy to block well for the cost, I don't think I would ever want to play it. drownyard behemoth is probably my favorite, it should be pretty easy to set it up as removal and should get value pretty easily. If you sac a 3 drop you're paying 4 to either get a 5/7 and probably trade 3-ish mana creatures, and possibly better. Lashweed lurker also seems pretty decent, easier to set up but generally less powerful in effect imo, however being both colors makes it more niche. mockery of nature seems sideboard at best, it's so overcosted and if there's no artifacts or enchantments to blow up, you get absolutely wrecked. vexing scuttler could be good in the right deck, although considering the body you really have to be getting pretty good value of it I think for it to be great. If you have a good removal spell or something to get back, say murder, then that's pretty sweet, but if you only have a few, and especially ones that are easier to play around, then it might not be good.
So overall, imo:
abundant maw: D- I would never want to play this card.
decimator of the provinces: C seems kinda niche, you basically need to win the game when this enters or it's not worth the games you'll never be able to cast it. Could be very good in the right deck, but totally unplayable in others.
distended mindbender: B- In the situation where you play a 3 drop into this, it seems pretty insane. When everyone's in topdeck mode, it's pretty meh. Overall I think it'll be good.
drownyard behemoth: B- Needs a little setup to be good, but for a defensive deck it should get value pretty easily.
elder deep-fiend: C+ Everyone else seems to love this guy, but personally I'm not that impressed. Tapping down 4 permanents is neat, but sacking a creature is going to make it harder to get lethal, and it could also be a total whiff in terms of CA. You can still flash for blocking value, but you might just get blown out by removal.
it of the horrid swarm: D+ Doesn't seem like enough value to want to play it. No matter what you're sacking, unless it's an enabler or a pacified creature, I don't think you can reasonably be worth it.
lashweed lurker: C+ The body itself is merely decent, but the effect is pretty powerful. Minus points for being 2 colors.
Mockery of nature: sideboard I don't ever want to mainboard this, it's just too awful if your opponent isn't playing artifacts or enchantments. Remember getting a 4/4 for 5 with the same effect, without sacking anything? Yeah, this card sucks.
Vexing scuttler: C+ If you've got enough powerful instants or sorceries, this could pretty easily be quite powerful. On the other hand, some decks won't really be able to use it reliably, since it's super awful without getting something good back.
Wretched Griff: C- One of my friends suggested a way of thinking of this card that I like: it's a split card between angelic gift and an overcosted cantrip flyer. My problem with this is that the latter is frequently going to be unplayable, and the former is only possible in the right circumstances. The other problem is the usual comparison of auras, namely that these creatures can't attack right away.
So that's where I'm at right now. None of them seem super awesome, and a lot of them seem pretty bad, but there are a few decent ones.
Your evaluations all seem like you're assuming the worst-case scenario, that enabling Emerge just won't be a thing* and any Emerge creature you cast is going to cost full price or involve sacrificing a relevant non-enabler creature. Given that Emerge is clearly meant to be the blue-green draft archetype and blue in particular is dedicating a lot of its card pool to supporting the mechanic, this amounts to assuming that R&D will prove to have just completely failed to execute on a central mechanical theme of the set. It certainly wouldn't be the first time that's happened, but I don't buy it as an assumption.
*Edit - Maybe I should clarify what I mean by this. For example:
Wretched Griff: C- One of my friends suggested a way of thinking of this card that I like: it's a split card between angelic gift and an overcosted cantrip flyer.
This analysis assumes that you literally never have an enabler or a creature locked under aura-based removal. Maybe you're pessimistic about how often enablers will matter or how playable an archetype based on enablers+Emerge will be, but to start from an assumption of complete irrelevance means you're being much too cautious.
Well, out of the uncommons, abundant maw seems simply horrible, the etb is so lame and the body is so easy to block well for the cost
Take a look at how many commons actually block with 4 power, and you'll find that there aren't that many of them, and they all cost 5 or more. Given how this card can come down on turn 4, I think you are underestimating how small the creatures in the format are compared to these emerge guys.
decimator of the provinces: C seems kinda niche, you basically need to win the game when this enters or it's not worth the games you'll never be able to cast it. Could be very good in the right deck, but totally unplayable in others.
When you cast this card on a 3 or 4 drop for 5-6 mana, you are attacking with a 7/7 trample haste that overruns your entire board. All you need to do to make this guy good is to have some semblance of a board when you cast it. This seems like one of the strongest bombs in the entire format.
elder deep-fiend: C+ Everyone else seems to love this guy, but personally I'm not that impressed. Tapping down 4 permanents is neat, but sacking a creature is going to make it harder to get lethal, and it could also be a total whiff in terms of CA. You can still flash for blocking value, but you might just get blown out by removal.
What removal? The only consistent instant speed answer to this is Murder and Unsubstantiate.
I don't think the emerge guys will be particularly insane for the most part, but they are certainly better than you are giving them credit for. I think they would be as bad as you say in a set with better removal and creatures, but that just doesn't seem to be what this set looks like.
I think most of them range from playable to good if you are in the emerge colors, even without drafting a bunch of enablers. I suspect these read worse than they play, kind of like bizarro punisher cards. Punisher cards present multiple powerful options, but your opponent gets to pick, which ends up making them play much worse than they read most of the time. Emerge cards present a variety of relatively inefficient casting modes, but in this case your ability to choose one on the fly likely makes them more effective than focusing on any single mode would suggest.
The exceptions for me, at this point anyway, are the black uncommon and the green common. Those I'd be hesitant to play outside of a deck that was set up to either enable emerge or get to 8 mana regularly.
Most of the emerge cards seem very good to me, with the exception of the commons. Sacrificing a generic 3-drop to get just a bigger creature is similar to putting an enchantment on the 3-drop, which opens up to a 2-for-1, so I do not like that. However, the non-common ones have other effects which are much more than just making a big creature and those effects plus the big creature make emerge worth it if you are playing the color(s) for the card.
Well, out of the uncommons, abundant maw seems simply horrible, the etb is so lame and the body is so easy to block well for the cost, I don't think I would ever want to play it. drownyard behemoth is probably my favorite, it should be pretty easy to set it up as removal and should get value pretty easily. If you sac a 3 drop you're paying 4 to either get a 5/7 and probably trade 3-ish mana creatures, and possibly better. Lashweed lurker also seems pretty decent, easier to set up but generally less powerful in effect imo, however being both colors makes it more niche. mockery of nature seems sideboard at best, it's so overcosted and if there's no artifacts or enchantments to blow up, you get absolutely wrecked. vexing scuttler could be good in the right deck, although considering the body you really have to be getting pretty good value of it I think for it to be great. If you have a good removal spell or something to get back, say murder, then that's pretty sweet, but if you only have a few, and especially ones that are easier to play around, then it might not be good.
So overall, imo:
abundant maw: D- I would never want to play this card.
decimator of the provinces: C seems kinda niche, you basically need to win the game when this enters or it's not worth the games you'll never be able to cast it. Could be very good in the right deck, but totally unplayable in others.
distended mindbender: B- In the situation where you play a 3 drop into this, it seems pretty insane. When everyone's in topdeck mode, it's pretty meh. Overall I think it'll be good.
drownyard behemoth: B- Needs a little setup to be good, but for a defensive deck it should get value pretty easily.
elder deep-fiend: C+ Everyone else seems to love this guy, but personally I'm not that impressed. Tapping down 4 permanents is neat, but sacking a creature is going to make it harder to get lethal, and it could also be a total whiff in terms of CA. You can still flash for blocking value, but you might just get blown out by removal.
it of the horrid swarm: D+ Doesn't seem like enough value to want to play it. No matter what you're sacking, unless it's an enabler or a pacified creature, I don't think you can reasonably be worth it.
lashweed lurker: C+ The body itself is merely decent, but the effect is pretty powerful. Minus points for being 2 colors.
Mockery of nature: sideboard I don't ever want to mainboard this, it's just too awful if your opponent isn't playing artifacts or enchantments. Remember getting a 4/4 for 5 with the same effect, without sacking anything? Yeah, this card sucks.
Vexing scuttler: C+ If you've got enough powerful instants or sorceries, this could pretty easily be quite powerful. On the other hand, some decks won't really be able to use it reliably, since it's super awful without getting something good back.
Wretched Griff: C- One of my friends suggested a way of thinking of this card that I like: it's a split card between angelic gift and an overcosted cantrip flyer. My problem with this is that the latter is frequently going to be unplayable, and the former is only possible in the right circumstances. The other problem is the usual comparison of auras, namely that these creatures can't attack right away.
So that's where I'm at right now. None of them seem super awesome, and a lot of them seem pretty bad, but there are a few decent ones.
Abundant Maw is actually one of my favorites BECAUSE I think the mechanic is so bad. Seems like the only time I'd be willing to two for one myself is for the sake of playing a really bad Lava Axe, since Lava Axes are something you 2 for 1 CA yourself with anyway.
They seem to be pretty decent if you have some good enablers and don't mind going a little late for them. After watching the pre-prerelease on LRR, (which granted is only a handful of games, so I know not a big sample size) I was really impressed mostly with Drownyard Behemoth. Killing something with 7 toughness is pretty tough to do, and with flash and hexproof that turn, it's almost always going to eat an attacker when you play it. The only other common/uncommon one I'm really interested in is the Gryff, which also seems decent.
The flash ones are great cause you can sac a dude who was about to die cause that cast a spell or you swung out and that was the one they blocked or they swung and you blocked.
Also, wanted to mention(in case no one else has), that the tap four permanents one is great for casting on their upkeep and tapping their lands. Especially if you are already ahead and just don't want them to catch up.
I think whether Emerge will be good will depend a lot on your deck's 3 drops. Many of the Emerge cards have an Emerge cost of 7, which means you can cast it as early as turn 4 if you have a 3 drop. Quite a few of the Emerge cards can be backbreaking if it comes out on turn 4 and they will demand an immediate answer . If you have good 3 drop Emerge-fodders, I think you can have good results with Emerge cards.
At least reading the thread clued me into the fact that I was misreading emerge. I had missed the mana reduction by the mana of the sac'd creature.
Went from being a horrible mechanic, to a so-so mechanic. Primarily evaluating from the sealed pre-release standpoint and not a draft. I think it's better in draft than sealed.
Best scenario, the cards have decent impact. Still require a 2 for 1 of yourself though to invoke in most cases. Most of them don't strike me a game ender especially in view of you just creature disadvantaging yourself.
Seems like to reap value from this they really need to hit on the curve. If they don't their value goes down.
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Looking at all of them, I'm really surprised they aren't more efficient. All of their hard mana costs are absolutely atrocious. Of course, some games everyone gets a bit flooded and you DO end up with nine mana, and then it's nice to have the option, but I certainly wouldn't play it for that. So it's relying pretty heavily on being able to sacrifice a creature to lower the cost.
Let's just look at the new insect one, it of the horrid swarm. How much would you pay for that creature, sans emerge? I'd estimate probably 5. At 5 it'd be quite good, at 6 it'd be a bit overcosted but still playable. The emerge cost is 7. So to get it down to 5, you're sacking a bear. Well, sacking a bear and replacing it with 2 1/1 tokens is a bit of a wash, so mostly you're paying 5 mana for a 4/4, and that's only if you've got a bear to sack in the first place. Otherwise you might have to trade something more valuable, at which point it starts looking more like you're paying 3-4 mana for a few tokens and maybe a minor upgrade to one of your creatures into a 4/4. Of course, flexibility is great, but that flexibility is predicated on having a selection of creatures to sacrifice, which often won't be the case. And worse, sometimes you won't have any creatures at all, and then you're just screwed.
Ok, so let's look at the blue common, wretched griff. Again, the cost is pretty prohibitive without emerge. So let's say you're sacrificing a bear. In this case, you get the card back, so that's a bonus. So basically you're now paying 5 mana to give a creature +1/+2 and flying (and summoning sickness). You do draw a card, but that effect is worth 2 mana tops, is 3 mana at all reasonable to pay just to add a card draw off of it? And if you're sacking a 3/3 for 3, now you're paying only 4, but only to give it +0/+1 and flying. And of course it looks worse if you start sacking anything bigger.
Granted, the sweet blowout here is to sacrifice a creature that's been unfavorably enchanted, and there is a new common pacifism in this set. But with sleep paralysis and bound by moonsilver relegated to just one pack, that hardly seems like an upgrade, especially since unlike those cards, the new one can exile the creature if the enchantment's controller gets bored. I daresay it'll be pretty rare to play against someone with more than 1-2 of those enchantments, so it seems like a board-in situation at best.
There are a few pretty decent enablers, granted. enlightened maniac and exultant cultist in blue, and foul emissary and primal druid in green. Unfortunately, enlightened maniac seems pretty awful if you're not going pretty deep on emerge, as does foul emissary. primal druid seems pretty bad if you can't reliably sac it either, and I suspect that the remainder - exultant cultist - will be a reasonably high pick for other decks, which means in order to make this deck work you'll have to commit to a bunch of cards that will suck if it doesn't come together.
Overall, the mechanic looks way too conservative to me - both costs seem ridiculously expensive, seemingly in the name of flexibility that only exists in the board-stall situation under which you can probably win with any number of other, more practical cards. I imagine once in a blue moon someone will have a deck stacked with enablers that manages to speed out eldrazi on turn 4-5, but even then they don't seem particularly overpowered.
Am I missing something here? Are they better than they look?
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
That said, the two common blue enablers seem really solid to me. I think Enlightened Maniac in particular may be a lot better than it looks. 4 mana makes literally any Emerge cost quite affordable. And while a 4-mana 3/2 isn't something you'd play on its own, it is large enough to trade with most 3-4 mana attackers, which means it negates most of the tempo cost of spending turn 4 setting up an emerge card.
Wretched Gryff seems good because it honestly doesn't need much enabling. If you have a good enabler it's obviously great, but with the cantrip and the relatively cheap Emerge, sacrificing a regular 2- or 3-drop that's not doing too much isn't bad, so it's unlikely to get stuck in your hand.
I would not put the Gryff in my deck with the intention of sacrificing a bear, but if I had a bear that wasn't doing anything, I'm not unhappy sacrificing it to cast the Gryff.
After looking at the spoilers, creatures are very small with the exception of werewolves and emerge creatures, so your emerge creature is likely to be the biggest thing on the board.
I think the emerge cards don't look great, but they are quite versatile. The ideal modes are sacrifice a synergy creature or hardcasting them late in the game, but if you have to you can sacrifice a real creature to help get them out. After playing a few test games they seem quite playable.
1. this being a small set means that youll see a lot of common enablers. Both common enablers in blue seem pretty playable and roughly along the same power level as the 1/1 owl in DTK for exploiting, so saccing one of them wont be an uncommon ocurrance. Green is more questionable, but has a decent payoff in the bloodbriar at common (no good enablers though, which is questionable)
2. this seems like a format where the removal is garbage and creatures are tiny, so emerging any of the fatty uncommons or even just the 4/4 on turn 4-5 will probably go a long way towards you the board. There seem to be a lot of 3/2s and 3/3s and not a lot of 4 power guys, so upgrading your 3 mana 3/2 into a 4/4 and 2 1/1s seems fine since the 1/1s trade with their 3/2 and the 4/4 is just bigger than most things in the format. That being said, the red 3 mana 4/3 common could end up being oppressive so maybe the 4/4 is too small.
3. The uncommons seem way better than the commons, as they generally have the critical 5 toughness to outfat every other non emerge creature in the format, and generally great etb triggers. Lashweed lurker is basically a roil spout, for instance.
The gryff seems like a card that is around the 2.5 level p1p1. 2 common enablers for it means that playing it is probably among the most powerful things blue can do at common, and most decks will want one as a mana sink late game anyways.
The green common is probably closer to a 2.0. Greens commons are far less exciting for this particular strategy, and the base cost is much more prohibitive than the gryff to make it a good lategame manasink. That being said, I wouldnt be surprised if im undervaluing just sacing a woodland patrol into this guy, since the 4/4 body is enormous in this format.
The uncommons like lashweed lurker and drownyard behemoth seem like easy 3.5s though, so dont count out the mechanic just yet!
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
Not having creatures to sac makes flexibility worse - yes, but this card should be treated as a latw game play anyways. A random 6 mana creature would be rotting in your hand as well, and if you miss your 2/3 drop, i dont know if you were winning that gamr anyways.
I like to think of these cards more in terms of auras, so saccing a bear is like getting +2/+2 and 2 tokens, which is similarish to knightly valor and was a fine card. This is obviously weaker comparatibility, but clearly has a lot more flexibility.
Enlightened maniac being awful without emerge - not sure I agree. 3/2 seems like it generally trades with most things in this format, so 4 mana for a 3/2 and a 0/2 that ends up being roughly 3-4 life and a potential body for the equipment/other shenanigans in the format seems like its playable filler (1.5-2.0?)
Wretched griff - emerge costs 6, so saccing a bear makes the card cost 4 mana, not 5. 3 mana 3/3s are abive curve in this set, so youre looking more at saccing a 3 mana 3/2 or 2/3 for an extra 2 stats and flying. While this isnt great, the fact that it cantrips means that you are only spending tempo to improve your board state as opposed to cards. Its like a turn 4 true faith censer where while it isnt the most tempoy thing you can do, you still get enough value out of the transaction that its generally fine. Also worth noting that 4 toughness is key in this format, dodging all cheap common removal and blocking favoeably vs the swarms of hill giants and 3/2s in the format.
Blue in particular seems well positioned to use emerge (although the color seems pretty mediocre in general...), so im sure that archetype is a thing in some shape or form. Its probably like madness where it can only support 1.5 drafters, but it will at least have power plays and do things compared to something like UB zombies in SoI which just didnt do anything meaningful.
The thing about the emerge creatures compared to other 7-8-9 mana creatures is that they sort of suck at that cost. You can't really compare them to 6 mana creatures since none of them cost 6, and even then some of the emerge creatures I wouldn't play if they cost 6.
Auras like knightly valor are imo better, because that creature doesn't have summoning sickness. In this case, you don't get the chance to attack right away. Compared to knightly valor, I'd take the 2/2 vigilance over 2 1/1s probably, and I'd take a vigilant 4/4 attacking this turn way over a non-vigilant 4/4 that can't.
I feel like the argument is "But you have more flexibility! you could sack something else if you need more/less mana, so even though it's worse than knightly valor on a 2/2, it might be cheaper if you sack something big, or be more powerful if you don't need to sack at all!" But the problem I have with that argument is that it doesn't take into account the times when you have no options at all. It's not really flexibility if it requires that you have a bunch of setup just to have options. Sometimes you won't have any creatures on board. Or your only creature will be thornhide wolves or something you don't want to sack. You only REALLY have flexibility if you're in a board stall, which is what blue-green was good at already, except with cards that sometimes weren't total garbage in other situations.
I mean, I don't necessarily think they're all totally unplayable. Sometimes you'll have a bunch of enablers and it'll be cool, and maybe a few of them (I think I like lashweed lurker the best?) are decent without support. But in terms of being THE blue-green strategy, it looks really really bad.
Dude, you just found out the creature draws one fewer card and you still like it? That's like finding out that jace's ingenuity draws 2 instead of 3 and still liking it o_O
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
I agree the green guy that makes tokens looks kind of bad, but the rest look at least playable to me, and the rare ones are excellent. Usual caveats apply of not wanting too many 6+ mana creatures in your deck, of course.
Regarding auras, I agree that auras are better as well due to not having summoning sickness, but there is some amount of upside with emerge, such as not being blown out by an instant speed removal spell (and therefore better protected vs cards such as the red shock and blue bounce spell).
I agree with you that I would only be comfortable playing 1 or 2 of these cards in an average deck, and looking at your posts, think that were probably on the same wavelength with these cards. Im guessing that you just had way higher expectations for the mechanic at common/uncommon than I did.
Isn't there plenty of answers in the set that can solve that problem more reliably? Savage Alliance, Vildin Pack Outcast, hard removal, Shrill Howler, Ulvenwald Captive... etc. There's 5 and six butts in the set that don't totally blow up in your face. I'm sure the emerge archetype will work if you get enough of the pieces, just like anything works if it is underdrafted enough at the table, but "take one of these for your normal deck" seems like a pretty hard sell to me for all but the highest quality emergers, if that.
So overall, imo:
abundant maw: D- I would never want to play this card.
decimator of the provinces: C seems kinda niche, you basically need to win the game when this enters or it's not worth the games you'll never be able to cast it. Could be very good in the right deck, but totally unplayable in others.
distended mindbender: B- In the situation where you play a 3 drop into this, it seems pretty insane. When everyone's in topdeck mode, it's pretty meh. Overall I think it'll be good.
drownyard behemoth: B- Needs a little setup to be good, but for a defensive deck it should get value pretty easily.
elder deep-fiend: C+ Everyone else seems to love this guy, but personally I'm not that impressed. Tapping down 4 permanents is neat, but sacking a creature is going to make it harder to get lethal, and it could also be a total whiff in terms of CA. You can still flash for blocking value, but you might just get blown out by removal.
it of the horrid swarm: D+ Doesn't seem like enough value to want to play it. No matter what you're sacking, unless it's an enabler or a pacified creature, I don't think you can reasonably be worth it.
lashweed lurker: C+ The body itself is merely decent, but the effect is pretty powerful. Minus points for being 2 colors.
Mockery of nature: sideboard I don't ever want to mainboard this, it's just too awful if your opponent isn't playing artifacts or enchantments. Remember getting a 4/4 for 5 with the same effect, without sacking anything? Yeah, this card sucks.
Vexing scuttler: C+ If you've got enough powerful instants or sorceries, this could pretty easily be quite powerful. On the other hand, some decks won't really be able to use it reliably, since it's super awful without getting something good back.
Wretched Griff: C- One of my friends suggested a way of thinking of this card that I like: it's a split card between angelic gift and an overcosted cantrip flyer. My problem with this is that the latter is frequently going to be unplayable, and the former is only possible in the right circumstances. The other problem is the usual comparison of auras, namely that these creatures can't attack right away.
So that's where I'm at right now. None of them seem super awesome, and a lot of them seem pretty bad, but there are a few decent ones.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
*Edit - Maybe I should clarify what I mean by this. For example: This analysis assumes that you literally never have an enabler or a creature locked under aura-based removal. Maybe you're pessimistic about how often enablers will matter or how playable an archetype based on enablers+Emerge will be, but to start from an assumption of complete irrelevance means you're being much too cautious.
Take a look at how many commons actually block with 4 power, and you'll find that there aren't that many of them, and they all cost 5 or more. Given how this card can come down on turn 4, I think you are underestimating how small the creatures in the format are compared to these emerge guys.
When you cast this card on a 3 or 4 drop for 5-6 mana, you are attacking with a 7/7 trample haste that overruns your entire board. All you need to do to make this guy good is to have some semblance of a board when you cast it. This seems like one of the strongest bombs in the entire format.
What removal? The only consistent instant speed answer to this is Murder and Unsubstantiate.
I don't think the emerge guys will be particularly insane for the most part, but they are certainly better than you are giving them credit for. I think they would be as bad as you say in a set with better removal and creatures, but that just doesn't seem to be what this set looks like.
The exceptions for me, at this point anyway, are the black uncommon and the green common. Those I'd be hesitant to play outside of a deck that was set up to either enable emerge or get to 8 mana regularly.
Abundant Maw is actually one of my favorites BECAUSE I think the mechanic is so bad. Seems like the only time I'd be willing to two for one myself is for the sake of playing a really bad Lava Axe, since Lava Axes are something you 2 for 1 CA yourself with anyway.
Also, wanted to mention(in case no one else has), that the tap four permanents one is great for casting on their upkeep and tapping their lands. Especially if you are already ahead and just don't want them to catch up.
Went from being a horrible mechanic, to a so-so mechanic. Primarily evaluating from the sealed pre-release standpoint and not a draft. I think it's better in draft than sealed.
Best scenario, the cards have decent impact. Still require a 2 for 1 of yourself though to invoke in most cases. Most of them don't strike me a game ender especially in view of you just creature disadvantaging yourself.
Seems like to reap value from this they really need to hit on the curve. If they don't their value goes down.