I mostly play online these days but tonight I'm going to draft at a store I can walk to from work in downtown Denver (no car, puke). I've played at this store a few times before and table talk was pretty rampant.
ex: drafter A says to drafter B "Can't believe I'm passing this!", or "you're gonna love this!" and other stuff like that.
I think this kind of conduct is collusive and not good. Then again, it is an FNM draft for picks (Denver stores suck, with one exception).
My question is : if this happens, should I
A) say "hey, can you chill with the table talk, that doesn't seem quite fair to everyone" like I want to or
B) ignore it, and stop getting uptight about dorks at FNM
It really depends on your FNM. However, in my experience, more FNMs are just casual and fun instead of about serious competition. I think the kind of treble talk you're talking about is fine for an FNM if that's the atmosphere they're going for. If you're not comfortable with that, you might try a different shop...I know in my town each shop has its own identity and feel in terms of things like this: there's room for more than one atmosphere when it comes to playing Magic.
To directly answer your question: no,I don't think you should complain or comment on the table talk going on...that seems to be the environment they want there, and there's nothing wrong with that.
One of the things I dislike mos about online drafting is the lack of table talk. We all play magic for different reasons, though a part of it for almost everyone is the ability to get out and interact with friends and people. So for a casual get together like most FNMs are I think that table talk is a good thing and should be encouraged, not discouraged.
I recommend asking the tournament organizers about this. If the event is a sanctioned event, they may be required by WotC to follow certain rules (potentially including not allowing table talk) and they may take your concern seriously (or they may not). Regardless, they set the tone of the event and as long as you are okay with it then I would just go along with it (in general).
I mean, I'm not really ok with it, I want a fair competitive environment, but I'm at a disadvantage because it's the only store a reasonable distance from me, I don't drive, bike is broken, and I want to connect with players in the area because I want to have a play group to test and improve.
I value the opportunity to connect with skilled players who live near me higher than being a stickler to the rules at the lowest enforcement level and ruining my chance to connect with people locally.
Personally, I don't think there's much information to be gained from these kinds of non-specific comments. From experience, unless people are specifically calling out cards or colors, they are just about as likely to be dead wrong about what colors their neighbors are in, compared to no table talk. It's less about collusion and more about socializing.
If it bugs you though, you can try to change things without making a big deal about it. Every group draws the line somewhere, and you are part of the group after all. If someone says something you think is particularly egregious, give them an incredulous look or say something like 'come on, guys.' Baby steps.
I generally just smile and nod, or make some kind of non-committal comment like "Huh." That kind of table talk isn't really appealing to me even around the kitchen table with my friends. I don't really make the comments myself. People are basically giving away free information, so it doesn't hurt me in the least that they're doing it.
As an example of why I don't like it though, my playgroup has players who have been playing for two decades and players who have been playing for less than two years. If one of the experienced players flashes me a card and says, "Can you believe this is still here?" that person is basically calling out the newer players for not being as good. It's just not an environment that's conducive to non-judgmental learning.
On the other hand, we know each other well enough to know each others' preferences for colors and archetypes. It's not unusual for people to say, "Ooooh, this card is so cute, ____ is going to love it if it makes it around to her!" or "Well, you're sitting to the left of _____, so you won't be getting any blue."
All of that said, I don't expect your comment as a person who isn't a regular would carry much weight unless someone like the TO agreed with you and was just waiting for a person to complain to get the ball rolling. Also, I find playing for picks (I assume you mean re-drafting the rares at the end of the tournament in lieu of prize boosters or store credit) distasteful as a way of running a for-pay FNM draft at a shop. I would choose a different location based on that alone unless the entry fee was very low.
If you want to avoid table talk, you're probably going to need a higher rules enforcement level than you get at FNM. You get more of an advantage out of it than anyone actually doing it, in any case, so it's not like there's any strategic value in complaining. I understand the desire for a "pure" draft experience, but the REL of an FNM just isn't conducive to getting it. Maybe try drafting online if that's what you're looking for? That's even more convenient than walking.
I think a little chatter is good, as long as people aren't explicitly giving information that could be used strategically. Saying "wow, this pack is sick" or joking about how excited you are to get that last-pick Vessel of Volatility keeps things lively but isn't really helping anyone make decisions. I've done IRL drafts in silence and it really kills the fun of it. Especially towards the end of the draft people at my store start talking about what colors people were drafting and what colors seemed open, this is fine because at that point it's too late to make adjustments or anything.
B) ignore it, and stop getting uptight about dorks at FNM
There's also value in keeping your mouth shut. With the two examples you gave ("Can't believe I'm passing this!", or "you're gonna love this!") I wouldn't say anything. If you complain about every little thing people might just start ignoring you, so maybe wait until it's something a little bigger ("Yes! Erdwal Illuminator! So good!").
FNM is a super laid back environment. If you want to improve as a player you're better off just grinding off 8-4's on modo as the players are typically better than your average FNM drafter anyways. I can't remember a draft where table talk hasn't occurred except perhaps one where first prize was an FTV 20 and it was top 8/kind of a big deal relatively speaking where people were trying to win. I even passed a thoughtseize as it was theros draft, regretted it as I lost in the quarters but oh well I'm down a $20.
Not sure how Regular REL handles table talk, but I assume it's a slap on the wrist/nothing really meaningful.
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Its free information to take how you will. Its not illegal to reveal information in Magic, and outside of high level play where a grim and serious attitude is the order of the day, there's nothing wrong with a little. Its when people start asking "Should I take this or that?" that a line needs to be drawn, I think.
yeah mtgo is something I will do regardless. It's important to me to connect with other players in the area because I'd like to have a playgroup. Playing online will improve my skills but there are parts that it won't, where a playgroup will.
re : whichever poster said something about going somewhere else, drafting for picks is unfortunately the norm in Denver. There is only one store in the area that doesn't draft for picks, and they are amazing, but I don't drive and they are inaccessible to me as of right now. They even do $20 Sealed tourneys with 2 packs/player prize support!
Hey so I find that the best (and most respectful) way to handle this is to simply shut it out.
I understand not wanting to hear table talk so I usually will bring a pair of headphones and something with some music on it to my local FNM. If table talk gets bad, I just plug in, turn up the volume and coast.
If not being social is an issue for you, then I understand not wanting to do this, but it's not so bad. You can be social once the actual drafting process ends and deck building begins.
Basically, just find some way to shut it out.
Hope this helps.
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yeah mtgo is something I will do regardless. It's important to me to connect with other players in the area because I'd like to have a playgroup. Playing online will improve my skills but there are parts that it won't, where a playgroup will.
re : whichever poster said something about going somewhere else, drafting for picks is unfortunately the norm in Denver. There is only one store in the area that doesn't draft for picks, and they are amazing, but I don't drive and they are inaccessible to me as of right now. They even do $20 Sealed tourneys with 2 packs/player prize support!
Pretty sure you mean me. That's pretty sad for a decent-size city. Glad to hear you found an option, but it sucks that it'll take you an hour to get there. (Good LR listening opportunity though I guess! Download the episode in the morning and listen on the way to get in that limited frame of mind.)
Not listening to the table talk is not a solution to the problem as I understand it. The point I got from the post is that the table talk is illegal (if the rules enforcement were high) and could easily give someone an advantage which is unfair (by unfair I mean not intended through the rules of the game). Not listening to the table talk could be a competitive disadvantage.
However, it is up to the tourney organizer to decide what they will allow, so I would think that talking with them about it would be the most effective approach, either they would fix the issue or let you know that it is what it is and then you can decide what to do from there (play at this location or not).
Pretty typical at local drafts in my experience, where you have a lot of casuals who don't know better, or even more competitive players who are friends and just not taking the little local draft that seriously. Personally I'd ignore it (or listen and try to glean info too) unless it was the kind of collusive thing where guys were going beyond the typical generalizations. Example:
- "I can't believe I'm passing you this" or "I can't believe this is still here" - These are annoying but ultimately pretty harmless. Maybe they got something meaningful...or maybe they don't know what a good card is and are excited over a Dire Swine.
- "I can't believe I'm passing you card X" - Basically if they get too specific (or show each other cards) then I'd take issue with it, as that does make for a significant advantage. If that's what is happening then I'd talk to the TO about it.
I dunno why you care about table talk as if makes some drastic impact on your draft games. It doesnt really change very much in the long run since your going to just build your deck regardless of whatever everyone else is doing. FNMs arent GPs to where you have to be dead silent due to the high level rules presented to you.
If you want quiet, then just stay home and draft on MTGO. Most TO's arent going to care if people are talking at an FNM. A LGS isnt a library and people dont show up usually for GP/PT practice. Even when pros are playtesting they talk to each other. Also, people are already breaking high level rules at FNM drafts when they look at their decks while drafting or take way more time than your ever allowed a real event to make a pick, so any real practice you will ever get an FNM is inheritedly non-existent.
I mostly play online these days but tonight I'm going to draft at a store I can walk to from work in downtown Denver (no car, puke). I've played at this store a few times before and table talk was pretty rampant.
ex: drafter A says to drafter B "Can't believe I'm passing this!", or "you're gonna love this!" and other stuff like that.
I think this kind of conduct is collusive and not good. Then again, it is an FNM draft for picks (Denver stores suck, with one exception).
My question is : if this happens, should I
A) say "hey, can you chill with the table talk, that doesn't seem quite fair to everyone" like I want to or
B) ignore it, and stop getting uptight about dorks at FNM
Most people at my store, myself included, wait to comment towards the end of a pack..."14th pick Ancient Carp, fellas, I'm goin' deep!" I don't actually mind the talk--just another way to play mind games or gain an advantage.
This is pretty common where I've been as long as they'e not explicitly naming cards. It's fun and keeps things lively. I don't think I'd play at a store that's very strict on that.
I'm annoyed by it when it gives away information about what colors are open. Learning that your neighbor is not in red is really helpful, and a lot of the most common table talk helps give this away which hurts the spirit of draft IMO.
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ex: drafter A says to drafter B "Can't believe I'm passing this!", or "you're gonna love this!" and other stuff like that.
I think this kind of conduct is collusive and not good. Then again, it is an FNM draft for picks (Denver stores suck, with one exception).
My question is : if this happens, should I
A) say "hey, can you chill with the table talk, that doesn't seem quite fair to everyone" like I want to or
B) ignore it, and stop getting uptight about dorks at FNM
To directly answer your question: no,I don't think you should complain or comment on the table talk going on...that seems to be the environment they want there, and there's nothing wrong with that.
Basically just listen to Dorvan I guess.
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I value the opportunity to connect with skilled players who live near me higher than being a stickler to the rules at the lowest enforcement level and ruining my chance to connect with people locally.
If it bugs you though, you can try to change things without making a big deal about it. Every group draws the line somewhere, and you are part of the group after all. If someone says something you think is particularly egregious, give them an incredulous look or say something like 'come on, guys.' Baby steps.
As an example of why I don't like it though, my playgroup has players who have been playing for two decades and players who have been playing for less than two years. If one of the experienced players flashes me a card and says, "Can you believe this is still here?" that person is basically calling out the newer players for not being as good. It's just not an environment that's conducive to non-judgmental learning.
On the other hand, we know each other well enough to know each others' preferences for colors and archetypes. It's not unusual for people to say, "Ooooh, this card is so cute, ____ is going to love it if it makes it around to her!" or "Well, you're sitting to the left of _____, so you won't be getting any blue."
All of that said, I don't expect your comment as a person who isn't a regular would carry much weight unless someone like the TO agreed with you and was just waiting for a person to complain to get the ball rolling. Also, I find playing for picks (I assume you mean re-drafting the rares at the end of the tournament in lieu of prize boosters or store credit) distasteful as a way of running a for-pay FNM draft at a shop. I would choose a different location based on that alone unless the entry fee was very low.
I've done this before when I thought people were being way too open about stuff.
There's also value in keeping your mouth shut. With the two examples you gave ("Can't believe I'm passing this!", or "you're gonna love this!") I wouldn't say anything. If you complain about every little thing people might just start ignoring you, so maybe wait until it's something a little bigger ("Yes! Erdwal Illuminator! So good!").
I don't think I even had a draft where were all sat in silence and drafted "seriously", it feels wrong somehow.
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Not sure how Regular REL handles table talk, but I assume it's a slap on the wrist/nothing really meaningful.
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re : whichever poster said something about going somewhere else, drafting for picks is unfortunately the norm in Denver. There is only one store in the area that doesn't draft for picks, and they are amazing, but I don't drive and they are inaccessible to me as of right now. They even do $20 Sealed tourneys with 2 packs/player prize support!
I understand not wanting to hear table talk so I usually will bring a pair of headphones and something with some music on it to my local FNM. If table talk gets bad, I just plug in, turn up the volume and coast.
If not being social is an issue for you, then I understand not wanting to do this, but it's not so bad. You can be social once the actual drafting process ends and deck building begins.
Basically, just find some way to shut it out.
Hope this helps.
Mono-Black 8-Rack - Casual Modern B
Mono-Green Aggro - Casual Modern G
Mono-Black Aggro - Casual Modern B
Rainbow Dredge - Legacy R G B W U
Pretty sure you mean me. That's pretty sad for a decent-size city. Glad to hear you found an option, but it sucks that it'll take you an hour to get there. (Good LR listening opportunity though I guess! Download the episode in the morning and listen on the way to get in that limited frame of mind.)
However, it is up to the tourney organizer to decide what they will allow, so I would think that talking with them about it would be the most effective approach, either they would fix the issue or let you know that it is what it is and then you can decide what to do from there (play at this location or not).
- "I can't believe I'm passing you this" or "I can't believe this is still here" - These are annoying but ultimately pretty harmless. Maybe they got something meaningful...or maybe they don't know what a good card is and are excited over a Dire Swine.
- "I can't believe I'm passing you card X" - Basically if they get too specific (or show each other cards) then I'd take issue with it, as that does make for a significant advantage. If that's what is happening then I'd talk to the TO about it.
If you want quiet, then just stay home and draft on MTGO. Most TO's arent going to care if people are talking at an FNM. A LGS isnt a library and people dont show up usually for GP/PT practice. Even when pros are playtesting they talk to each other. Also, people are already breaking high level rules at FNM drafts when they look at their decks while drafting or take way more time than your ever allowed a real event to make a pick, so any real practice you will ever get an FNM is inheritedly non-existent.
Most people at my store, myself included, wait to comment towards the end of a pack..."14th pick Ancient Carp, fellas, I'm goin' deep!" I don't actually mind the talk--just another way to play mind games or gain an advantage.
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