I know that it is obviously still quite early with tons of commons yet to be revealed, but I think that the overall picture of Shadows Over Innistrad is starting to become a bit clearer.
Based primarily on Investigate and the discard theme + Delirium, do you think that Shadows Over Innistrad is going to be an 18-land format? It seems to me like there are signs pointing to decks wanting extra lands with all sorts of colors having access to clues and being able to sink mana into being able to activate things by sacrificing clues. I suppose time will tell if this shakes out much at the common rarity, but so far there are a bunch of cool cards (particularly in U/G) that want you to sacrifice clues and use enchantments to put clues into play. For example, Briarbridge Patrol and Ulvenwald Mysteries are both uncommons with rewards for cracking Clues. Such cards seem like they would benefit from being able to get a good amount of lands in play to start the engine.
It also seems like the combination of the discard theme and Delirium could push in the direction of 18 lands as you will have insurance against mana flood in the form of being able to pitch otherwise useless lands to discard effects such as Heir of Falkenrath or Ravenous Bloodseeker. Granted, you'd prefer to pitch madness cards to these guys, but putting a land in the yard to help your delirium count seems like a decent fallback plan there. Such cards also can mean that late lands are not dead, similar to landfall.
Am I on the right track with these thoughts here, or not?
Possibly, investigate does reward you for hitting your land drops so you can utilize it more efficiently. We have to wait and see what the meat and potatoes of the set (commons and uncommons) bring to the table before we can really discuss this with much certainty though.
I wish all formats were 18-land formats. 18 land formats play so much better than 17 land formats, since fewer games are decided by mana screw and there are more ways to take advantage of mana flood. So it's a safe bet that I'll be trying out the format with 18 lands first, even if I have to eventually give in and start playing 17.
I'd say the existence of Clues is a pretty good indication that it is, but the commons with the mechanic so far are really low-impact. I'm not at all sure there's going to be a ton of Clues available on staple commons.
Unless the rest of the spoilers suggest a format that's just too fast for fiddling around with Clues and whatnot, I expect to start out playing 18 lands and see where things go from there. And while development could miss the mark and make the format too fast to give the Investigate mechanic room to breathe, I have to think they'd catch that problem if we could get it just by reading the spoiler.
In addition to Clues, werewolves will be bringing some mana sinks to green and red to help werewolf players transform their team without wasting their turn, just like last time (we've already seen Quilled Wolf). Also, if you're playing werewolves, "Pass your turn without doing anything" can actually turn into a good late game mana sink, so that archetype really gets punished less for being land flooded and can afford to play extra lands.
Obviously having worthwhile discard outlets makes playing more lands attractive, because if you're going to be pitching a few of the worst cards in your hand anyway, you may as well play more lands.
It's already been pointed out that Delirium rewards you for using extra lands to feed discard outlets, since they're a card type that doesn't usually get binned naturally (though if you're feeding Delirium with self-mill, "Creature" and "Land" should get taken care of automatically). There are also a couple green cards that regrow lands, which provides an extra incentive for using lands to feed discard abilities. (Self-mill may change that equation, too, though; if you're milling yourself pretty hard, then picking up some Stoic Builders could mean you actually need less land)
All in all, I feel pretty good about the idea of playing extra land in SOI, and I like that it feels as if development has really been taking the need for mana-smoothing mechanics in Limited seriously in recent blocks.
This is hard enough to predict after the whole set is spoiled, let alone when there are still dozens of unspoiled commons. Given madness, it might be more reasonable to chose to draw first.
I played 18 lands most of the time in original Innistrad because of the werewolf mechanic. If you missed your third land drop and didn't cast a spell and your oppoennt had a werewolf flip, you were just dead.
Now, that was one of the major flaws with original innistrad, so hopefully the common flip werewolves aren't so pushed. But it will certainly be a consideration again.
I was wondering what would be the effect of every color having access to card drawing via the clues?
Anyway, as others have said, I think it's too early to know what kind of formats we're dealing with. My impression so far is that with vampires and wolves, we have two tribes that look aggro, so it may not be a late-game format.
Oh, and you may want extra land to sac to the common white removal that requires you to sac a creature or a land.
Oh, and you may want extra land to sac to the common white removal that requires you to sac a creature or a land.
I somehow really doubt that's going to be a consideration. A card is a card, and 2-for-1ing yourself is 2-for-1ing yourself. As is the case with Bone Splinters, you only are going to play that card if you're desperate for removal or else have stuff that you really want to sac. In neither case does saccing a land sound like an important part of your plan.
Oh, and you may want extra land to sac to the common white removal that requires you to sac a creature or a land.
I somehow really doubt that's going to be a consideration. A card is a card, and 2-for-1ing yourself is 2-for-1ing yourself. As is the case with Bone Splinters, you only are going to play that card if you're desperate for removal or else have stuff that you really want to sac. In neither case does saccing a land sound like an important part of your plan.
I think that common white removal is going to be one of the most important cards of the set for limited. A land *isn't* a creature. Not saying that card single handedly makes it an 18 land format but it's a top pick card and if you have 1-2 in your deck (totally possible as it is a common) you'd love to have token makers, clue token makers, or be generous on lands.
There's no way to tell until you start drafting the set. Also I think it's detrimental to decide how many lands you want to play in any format before you have your deck built.
I think that common white removal is going to be one of the most important cards of the set for limited. A land *isn't* a creature. Not saying that card single handedly makes it an 18 land format but it's a top pick card and if you have 1-2 in your deck (totally possible as it is a common) you'd love to have token makers, clue token makers, or be generous on lands.
If you're playing extra lands just to enable that card, then you're just making sure it's always a 2-for-1 in your opponent's favor.
There's no way to tell until you start drafting the set. Also I think it's detrimental to decide how many lands you want to play in any format before you have your deck built.
I think that common white removal is going to be one of the most important cards of the set for limited. A land *isn't* a creature. Not saying that card single handedly makes it an 18 land format but it's a top pick card and if you have 1-2 in your deck (totally possible as it is a common) you'd love to have token makers, clue token makers, or be generous on lands.
If you're playing extra lands just to enable that card, then you're just making sure it's always a 2-for-1 in your opponent's favor.
Hes just saying that the more uses you have for extra lands in your hand/on the board, the less horrible it is to be mana flooded. that removal card obviously doesnt single handedly push you into 18 lands, but using your extra lands to enable such a powerful effect is obviously a bonus if youre playing 18 lands anyways. One major theme I see in this set is going to be 2 for 1ing yourself for some powerful effect and recovering the card disadvantage through clues or whatever, and unconditional removal is obviously something thats probably going to be worth 2 for 1ing yorself for in some decks.
Edit: misread and he was saying it single handedly pushes you into it, which i disagree with. A combination of cluemakers, this card, and delerium/discard cards pushes you into 18 lands, not just this alone. You would need to have a very high curve + this card for this card to singlehandedly push you into 18.
Based primarily on Investigate and the discard theme + Delirium, do you think that Shadows Over Innistrad is going to be an 18-land format? It seems to me like there are signs pointing to decks wanting extra lands with all sorts of colors having access to clues and being able to sink mana into being able to activate things by sacrificing clues. I suppose time will tell if this shakes out much at the common rarity, but so far there are a bunch of cool cards (particularly in U/G) that want you to sacrifice clues and use enchantments to put clues into play. For example, Briarbridge Patrol and Ulvenwald Mysteries are both uncommons with rewards for cracking Clues. Such cards seem like they would benefit from being able to get a good amount of lands in play to start the engine.
It also seems like the combination of the discard theme and Delirium could push in the direction of 18 lands as you will have insurance against mana flood in the form of being able to pitch otherwise useless lands to discard effects such as Heir of Falkenrath or Ravenous Bloodseeker. Granted, you'd prefer to pitch madness cards to these guys, but putting a land in the yard to help your delirium count seems like a decent fallback plan there. Such cards also can mean that late lands are not dead, similar to landfall.
Am I on the right track with these thoughts here, or not?
I'd say the existence of Clues is a pretty good indication that it is, but the commons with the mechanic so far are really low-impact. I'm not at all sure there's going to be a ton of Clues available on staple commons.
In addition to Clues, werewolves will be bringing some mana sinks to green and red to help werewolf players transform their team without wasting their turn, just like last time (we've already seen Quilled Wolf). Also, if you're playing werewolves, "Pass your turn without doing anything" can actually turn into a good late game mana sink, so that archetype really gets punished less for being land flooded and can afford to play extra lands.
Obviously having worthwhile discard outlets makes playing more lands attractive, because if you're going to be pitching a few of the worst cards in your hand anyway, you may as well play more lands.
It's already been pointed out that Delirium rewards you for using extra lands to feed discard outlets, since they're a card type that doesn't usually get binned naturally (though if you're feeding Delirium with self-mill, "Creature" and "Land" should get taken care of automatically). There are also a couple green cards that regrow lands, which provides an extra incentive for using lands to feed discard abilities. (Self-mill may change that equation, too, though; if you're milling yourself pretty hard, then picking up some Stoic Builders could mean you actually need less land)
There's also Merciless Resolve asking for excess lands.
All in all, I feel pretty good about the idea of playing extra land in SOI, and I like that it feels as if development has really been taking the need for mana-smoothing mechanics in Limited seriously in recent blocks.
Now, that was one of the major flaws with original innistrad, so hopefully the common flip werewolves aren't so pushed. But it will certainly be a consideration again.
Anyway, as others have said, I think it's too early to know what kind of formats we're dealing with. My impression so far is that with vampires and wolves, we have two tribes that look aggro, so it may not be a late-game format.
Oh, and you may want extra land to sac to the common white removal that requires you to sac a creature or a land.
I somehow really doubt that's going to be a consideration. A card is a card, and 2-for-1ing yourself is 2-for-1ing yourself. As is the case with Bone Splinters, you only are going to play that card if you're desperate for removal or else have stuff that you really want to sac. In neither case does saccing a land sound like an important part of your plan.
I think that common white removal is going to be one of the most important cards of the set for limited. A land *isn't* a creature. Not saying that card single handedly makes it an 18 land format but it's a top pick card and if you have 1-2 in your deck (totally possible as it is a common) you'd love to have token makers, clue token makers, or be generous on lands.
If you're playing extra lands just to enable that card, then you're just making sure it's always a 2-for-1 in your opponent's favor.
Hes just saying that the more uses you have for extra lands in your hand/on the board, the less horrible it is to be mana flooded. that removal card obviously doesnt single handedly push you into 18 lands, but using your extra lands to enable such a powerful effect is obviously a bonus if youre playing 18 lands anyways. One major theme I see in this set is going to be 2 for 1ing yourself for some powerful effect and recovering the card disadvantage through clues or whatever, and unconditional removal is obviously something thats probably going to be worth 2 for 1ing yorself for in some decks.
Edit: misread and he was saying it single handedly pushes you into it, which i disagree with. A combination of cluemakers, this card, and delerium/discard cards pushes you into 18 lands, not just this alone. You would need to have a very high curve + this card for this card to singlehandedly push you into 18.