I'm getting really irritated at how often I see and lose to these Black/Red dash decks in the DDF drafts. They get way too much on the board way too fast and deal you too much damage before you can do anything about it. Other than being a sheep and forcing that archetype myself are there any other archetypes or cards I can draft so I stop losing so badly against these BS decks?
Does anyone have any tips or advice of how to beat these seemingly unbeatable decks?
Looking for serious, constructive feedback only please.
The main thing when you draft your deck, is that if you got a curve, so you can put a 2 and a 3 drop in play, in the first turns then you shouldnt have so big problems against dash decks.
except that they have removal for those things. or their dash creatures are too big to trade with my 2-3 drops. i.e. warbrute, screamreach, ambuscade shaman etc.. Also they can play 2+ creatures a turn which I can't seem to match. I wish there was instant speed mass removal in this format but their isnt.
RB Dash is probably the best deck in the format, but it's not unbeatable. (Except my round 2 opponent in an 8-4 last night who went turn 2 dash Reckless Imp, turn 3 dash Vaultbreaker, turn 4 Warbringer, turn 5 dash Imp dash Imp dash Vanguard dash Vanguard dash Vaultbreaker. That guy was probably actually unbeatable...)
What you basically want to do is to take advantage of the fact that dash guys are mostly a bit durdly when the time comes to hardcast them; you need to not die before the game gets to that stage. The important thing to recognize is that morphs are usually really bad against the dash deck, because 3 mana 2/2s are even more durdly than the average dash guy and it's really hard to trade one for any kind of value. Cards that trade with, say, Screamreach Brawler, are better than morphs; what's the absolute best, though, are cheap guys that have enough toughness to survive a tussle. That's your ideal situation; often the dash deck can gain a ton of tempo by dashing out its guys for trades, and then even if you have efficient guys to trade with, you end up behind because you paid retail for your guys and they didn't. However if you have a guy that survives to block again, they have to pay extra in dash costs to get around it.
Most of the common dash guys have 3 power or less, so if you have 4 toughness guys they're usually extra awesome against that deck.
Given the above advice, it should come as no surprise that Updraft Elemental and Colossodon Yearling will often be the best cards in your deck against R/B.
Don't try to play around combat tricks unless it will cost you a card; just block and make them trade their trick for your guy.
Try not to get burned out by Sarkhan's Rage; sometimes going below 5 is unavoidable, but if you do that then remember they probably have the inevitability, not you, and try to finish the game quickly. On a similar note, you basically only have to play around Atarka Efreet in terms of morphs; try not to get Lava Axed by it.
Warbringer and Ambuscade Shaman are both must-kill threats. Try not to blow your removal on anything until your opponent has at least had a chance to play one if he has one, ie don't panic blast that two-drop with an Ultimate Price or something.
Include good blockers, and unless you feel like you can race (an unlikely plan of victory) play conservatively with your attacks. Sideboard in good blockers if you have to. Include 2 drop creatures in your deck. Unless your opponent has close to a nut draw, if you can build up your blockers then it will be very difficult for a dash deck.
i'm irritated, too. i played a green splash blue deck chock full of 3 CMC 2/4s (three of them!), and i played a creature turn 2, 3, and 4. but the mixture of Atarka Efreet, Goblin Heelcutter, that R Instant +1/+0 First Strike spell, and a mid-game Lose Calm made my successful curve ineffective. i would block, and they would pump their creature. i would play a big blocker, but then Goblin Heelcutter made it useless. i would trade, but then i didn't have many creatures on board and so Lose Calm destroyed me.
and that was just one of the games. getting 2-for-1'd by Atarka Efreet killing your early 1-toughness drop (Frost Walker in my case.. which i sided in to deal with their 5/4 turn-four dash which indeed came online turn four) is brutal. it felt like there was no actual good card to side in: my 2/4s get Goblin Heelcutter'd out of relevance, and none of my non-one toughness green [!] creatures can't eat or even trade against a 5/4 on turn four.
i got so discouraged that i'm not sure i want to play another draft of this set. red just seems unfairly overpowered.
so this is my emotional impression. are all you saying that it's actually not that bad?
i'm irritated, too. i played a green splash blue deck chock full of 3 CMC 2/4s (three of them!), and i played a creature turn 2, 3, and 4. but the mixture of Atarka Efreet, Goblin Heelcutter, that R Instant +1/+0 First Strike spell, and a mid-game Lose Calm made my successful curve ineffective. i would block, and they would pump their creature. i would play a big blocker, but then Goblin Heelcutter made it useless. i would trade, but then i didn't have many creatures on board and so Lose Calm destroyed me.
and that was just one of the games. getting 2-for-1'd by Atarka Efreet killing your early 1-toughness drop (Frost Walker in my case.. which i sided in to deal with their 5/4 turn-four dash which indeed came online turn four) is brutal. it felt like there was no actual good card to side in: my 2/4s get Goblin Heelcutter'd out of relevance, and none of my non-one toughness green [!] creatures can't eat or even trade against a 5/4 on turn four.
i got so discouraged that i'm not sure i want to play another draft of this set. red just seems unfairly overpowered.
so this is my emotional impression. are all you saying that it's actually not that bad?
Yea, this format seems pretty terrible
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I don't think the format is bad. Sure, red is the best color, but that dosen't mean it's overpowered. I've played against red aggro, and, while it's strong, I have good records. You just need to acknowledge that when you're the controlling deck, the aggressor might get a better hand and win pretty easly, just like any format, not just limited.
I'm about 10 drafts in and I've yet to encounter this Dash menace. Maybe once I've seen a version that looked unbeatable. For me the key card appears to be Ambuscade Shaman. He shores up the weakness of Dash decks, which is that most Dash creatures are on the smaller side. He makes it completely lopsided. Shaman is just a 2/2 though, and if your deck can't remove a 2/2, you didn't build a sufficiently interactive deck. The only color combo that really struggles is Ojutai since they don't often get to deal direct damage.
If someone manages to get all the best Dash creatures AND all the red and black removal, the issue isn't with the design of the set. The issue is that someone else should have been in those colors. I've seen a lot of tables where red and black are split -- one deck that is all dash and no removal, and vice versa. It's only unbeatable when the colors are way too open, and that shouldn't happen often. (Also, any color that's too open plays well.)
I haven't had a problem either. The key to beating that deck is taking some dashed hits in order to get ahead on board and saving removal for the problematic enablers and top end. Dash isn't much more oppressive than regular aggro; it just happens to have better curve filler and reach than usual. Also, it's very easy to find opponents who misplay by only ever dashing and never actually developing their board, making their Heelcutters useless.
BTW, for the reasons Phyrre56 has pointed out, I've found Sprinting Warbrute to be one of the best commons for that archetype. Most dash creatures can be blanked on board, so having one big enough to demand an answer is a huge get for that deck.
I think that the dash deck is pretty unbeatable if they have a nut draw, but often times unless it's a deck with great cards overall the deck will just sort of fizzle and you can grind them out, or if you have an aggressive deck and their draw is average then you can just race them as defense is not their strong point to say the least. I think the red-black dash desk is probably the best archetype in the format but I don't think it's at all unbeatable unless they get a nut draw. Against the deck, when in doubt don't attack unless your aggressive deck is ahead in the game.
Like others have said, the dash decks are definitely not unbeatable. You need to make sure your decks have ways to gain tempo or steal tempo from the opponent. Best way to do this is through cheap combat tricks and smart use of removal. Incidental life gain is good as well. Cards like Butcher's Glee, Douse in Gloom, Honor's Reward, Student of Ojutai, etc are strong in this format. Simply playing more 2 drops also helps keep you alive.
It's important to realize when you have stabilized and can start attacking against these dash decks. They will probably have some form of reach so you can't just hold back forever.
I've seen a few comments like "Dash is unbeatable when they get the nut draw." Do you guys know what nut draw means? It means the best draw. Every deck should win when it gets a nut draw...by definition. The phrase comes from Poker where it means you have literally the best possible hand and you can't lose. It doesn't just mean a good hand.
I think some of the frustration here is that Dash wins quickly. You might be equally likely to lose against a great Dash draw or a great Exploit draw, but the Exploit draw takes a lot longer to play out. Makes you feel like you had a fighting chance when you really didn't. Dash just says...nope you lose, right now, pack it up. And that's frustrating because then the game wasn't even interesting.
Phyrre, i love slow durdly decks (so much love for 3xKhans!), and those don't seem to have a nut draw, in the sense that you know you 90% are likely to win when you see it? they seem to have the "awesome, i can definitely know i stay alive for the next 8 turns!" draw instead, right?
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Raging Goblin He raged at the world, at his family, at his life. But mostly he just raged.
I don't think the format is bad. Sure, red is the best color, but that dosen't mean it's overpowered. I've played against red aggro, and, while it's strong, I have good records. You just need to acknowledge that when you're the controlling deck, the aggressor might get a better hand and win pretty easly, just like any format, not just limited.
I'm not basing it on the strength of aggro, but on the fairly unbalanced color pair strengths which makes it feel a lot like AVR to me (Everyone going for one or two color pairs, and the others only being viable if they are wide open). I'm probably being harder on it because I don't like the way the mechanics play in limited for the most part. Dash is the biggest offender by far, but bolster and exploit don't do much for me, and rebound kind of sucks this time around compared to ROE.
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The Meaning of Life: "M-hmm. Well, it's nothing very special. Uh, try and be nice to people, avoid eating fat, read a good book every now and then, get some walking in, and try and live together in peace and harmony with people of all creeds and nations"
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Whether its blue players countering your spells, red players burning you out, or combo, if you have a problem with an aspect of Magic's gameplay, you can fix it!
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
I have actually found that Glade Watcher is a really strong SB card against the dash decks if you end up in green. One in the mainboard for the early presence is okay, but they are usually bad in G1 against other decks. However, it poses a 2 drop that their non-flying dashers cannot ignore. It's also not unreasonable to use one or two of them to close out a grindy game.
I've found custodian of the trove to be pretty good. I got stuck playing two when a draft kind of turned into a trainwreck and I ran out of playable cards (along with two vials of dragonfire...), but it was actually really good against the black/red decks.
I've done the dash deck a couple times. Neither time had heelcutters or shaman or warbringer. All you really need is a mass of decent dash (imps and warbrutes work) backed up by other low drops and some good removal.
silph: I agree with your point, there is such a thing as "close to a nut draw" for most any type of deck but for an aggressive deck it is much more devastating because the opponent has very little chance. That is not true in my view for a control-oriented deck if the draws after the initial 7 fizzle out.
Dash is strong, and very annoying. But it's beatable for sure.
As for the format itself, it's very mediocre. Not awful, but certainly nothing to write home about.
On a 1 to 10 scale, with 1 being Full block Theros draft (worst imaginable) and 10 being full Time Spiral Block (best ever), this is between a 4 and a 5.
I don't know that I agree since FRF common Goblin Heelcutter is another powerful key component, but it is interesting to see such a comment which goes against what many others seem to believe.
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Does anyone have any tips or advice of how to beat these seemingly unbeatable decks?
Looking for serious, constructive feedback only please.
What you basically want to do is to take advantage of the fact that dash guys are mostly a bit durdly when the time comes to hardcast them; you need to not die before the game gets to that stage. The important thing to recognize is that morphs are usually really bad against the dash deck, because 3 mana 2/2s are even more durdly than the average dash guy and it's really hard to trade one for any kind of value. Cards that trade with, say, Screamreach Brawler, are better than morphs; what's the absolute best, though, are cheap guys that have enough toughness to survive a tussle. That's your ideal situation; often the dash deck can gain a ton of tempo by dashing out its guys for trades, and then even if you have efficient guys to trade with, you end up behind because you paid retail for your guys and they didn't. However if you have a guy that survives to block again, they have to pay extra in dash costs to get around it.
Most of the common dash guys have 3 power or less, so if you have 4 toughness guys they're usually extra awesome against that deck.
Given the above advice, it should come as no surprise that Updraft Elemental and Colossodon Yearling will often be the best cards in your deck against R/B.
Don't try to play around combat tricks unless it will cost you a card; just block and make them trade their trick for your guy.
Try not to get burned out by Sarkhan's Rage; sometimes going below 5 is unavoidable, but if you do that then remember they probably have the inevitability, not you, and try to finish the game quickly. On a similar note, you basically only have to play around Atarka Efreet in terms of morphs; try not to get Lava Axed by it.
Warbringer and Ambuscade Shaman are both must-kill threats. Try not to blow your removal on anything until your opponent has at least had a chance to play one if he has one, ie don't panic blast that two-drop with an Ultimate Price or something.
and that was just one of the games. getting 2-for-1'd by Atarka Efreet killing your early 1-toughness drop (Frost Walker in my case.. which i sided in to deal with their 5/4 turn-four dash which indeed came online turn four) is brutal. it felt like there was no actual good card to side in: my 2/4s get Goblin Heelcutter'd out of relevance, and none of my non-one toughness green [!] creatures can't eat or even trade against a 5/4 on turn four.
i got so discouraged that i'm not sure i want to play another draft of this set. red just seems unfairly overpowered.
so this is my emotional impression. are all you saying that it's actually not that bad?
Goblins have poor impulse control. Don't click this link!!
some of my favourite flavour text:
Wayward Soul
"no home no heart no hope"
—Stronghold graffito
Raging Goblin
He raged at the world, at his family, at his life. But mostly he just raged.
Yea, this format seems pretty terrible
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
If someone manages to get all the best Dash creatures AND all the red and black removal, the issue isn't with the design of the set. The issue is that someone else should have been in those colors. I've seen a lot of tables where red and black are split -- one deck that is all dash and no removal, and vice versa. It's only unbeatable when the colors are way too open, and that shouldn't happen often. (Also, any color that's too open plays well.)
BTW, for the reasons Phyrre56 has pointed out, I've found Sprinting Warbrute to be one of the best commons for that archetype. Most dash creatures can be blanked on board, so having one big enough to demand an answer is a huge get for that deck.
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It's important to realize when you have stabilized and can start attacking against these dash decks. They will probably have some form of reach so you can't just hold back forever.
On the other hand, going into a draft thinking, "Well, I seem to lose to the Dash deck, so I need to be drafting white" is a recipe for a disaster.
I think some of the frustration here is that Dash wins quickly. You might be equally likely to lose against a great Dash draw or a great Exploit draw, but the Exploit draw takes a lot longer to play out. Makes you feel like you had a fighting chance when you really didn't. Dash just says...nope you lose, right now, pack it up. And that's frustrating because then the game wasn't even interesting.
Goblins have poor impulse control. Don't click this link!!
some of my favourite flavour text:
Wayward Soul
"no home no heart no hope"
—Stronghold graffito
Raging Goblin
He raged at the world, at his family, at his life. But mostly he just raged.
I'm not basing it on the strength of aggro, but on the fairly unbalanced color pair strengths which makes it feel a lot like AVR to me (Everyone going for one or two color pairs, and the others only being viable if they are wide open). I'm probably being harder on it because I don't like the way the mechanics play in limited for the most part. Dash is the biggest offender by far, but bolster and exploit don't do much for me, and rebound kind of sucks this time around compared to ROE.
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
True, true. I was just saying if black red seems dry, that might be your cue to nab some white defensive cards
The other problem is that sorcery-speed removal isn't going to cut it against them. Pacifism and Reduce in Stature are useless. Assuming you aren't able to get the good B or R removal because the dash player is taking it, you want Dromoka Dunecaster, which can easily blank most dash cards, Enduring Victory, Sandblast, and Vial of Dragonfire.
Just play cheap blockers, then hold back your removal for the bigger guys like warbrute.
As for the format itself, it's very mediocre. Not awful, but certainly nothing to write home about.
On a 1 to 10 scale, with 1 being Full block Theros draft (worst imaginable) and 10 being full Time Spiral Block (best ever), this is between a 4 and a 5.
I don't know that I agree since FRF common Goblin Heelcutter is another powerful key component, but it is interesting to see such a comment which goes against what many others seem to believe.