I just wanted to start and generate some discussion on what people are thinking about the draft and sealed formats now that the prereleases are over and now that DTK is on MTGO (only prerelease events so far).
Any thoughts on the best draft archetype? I know that's not the best question but perhaps it will lead to some conversation. I currently think people don't value Ambuscade Shaman highly enough. I see it go around rather late and I think it's the most important piece to a successful dash deck (which by the way I think is the best archetype).
I do think U/B Exploit is very good, though I think too many people are drafting it right now. I know Vulturous Aven and Gurmag Drowner are really important for the deck to sustain and maintain its card advantage. However, I'm starting to feel like Palace Familiar, Sultai Emissary, and Jeskai Sage are maybe more important (higher picks) than the exploit card themselves. With the success of R/B Dash and with White being so aggressive, I feel like early drops are so important.
Another thought, I think white is pretty weak. Actually I think Dromoka is weak. I've 3-0'd with RB Dash, UB Exploit, and RG Formidable, but whenever I play against a WG deck, I just steamroll them and feel like it's a weak deck. I'm sure you can build successful WG decks but anyone else feel this way?
Yeah you bring up a really good point. The 4cc slot tends to get a little crowded which makes Beastbreakers and similar 2 drops even more important. 2 drops in general have really gone up in my priority list. Because of this, I think all archetypes have to consider drafting their 2 drops earlier than before. Like if you're not exploiting a 2 drop for Vulturous Aven or Gurmag Drowner, then those cards really start becoming marginal.
I'm quickly learning to hate this format. It's all aggro all the time. Dash is too strong. It's ridiculous, linear, and boring.
Oh my god and the mulliganing. If you don't have at least two creatures casting cost 2 or less in your opening hand, it's nearly an auto mulligan. I have never seen so much mulliganing before, by me or my opponents. It's awful.
I'm quickly learning to hate this format. It's all aggro all the time. Dash is too strong. It's ridiculous, linear, and boring.
If it helps it should be (at least a little) better once the prerelease events are over. The seeded pack makes decks come together more consistently, and online doesn't have the availability balance, so everyone can pick the strongest clans. I'm avoiding online prerelease events, personally.
I'm quickly learning to hate this format. It's all aggro all the time. Dash is too strong. It's ridiculous, linear, and boring.
If it helps it should be (at least a little) better once the prerelease events are over. The seeded pack makes decks come together more consistently, and online doesn't have the availability balance, so everyone can pick the strongest clans. I'm avoiding online prerelease events, personally.
Yeah I agree with both of you. I think Dash is really strong, but like Locke_Daemonfire points out, I think the consistency will go down a bit after the prerelease once the seeded packs are unavailable. Yeah I'm not doing any online sealed prereleases, if anything just draft or wait till the release events start.
I think red is far and away the strongest color. aggressive creatures and just so many efficient removal spells. My favorite is BR, but I've even had the chance to play things like UR, which has some surprising synergies (exploit goblin fodder, collateral damage the owl or jeskai sage, etc)
Yes, clearly the best color is red. BR or RG especially. It's hard not to lose if you draft an even average RG deck. Still finding this format lacking; I don't see anything like as many viable strategies as I saw with KTK/FRF. Hard to recall when either I or an opponent wasn't playing one of UB, BR, or RG. And the player with red usually wins.
I think I'm going to dislike the fact there are basically just 5 decks now. Even before, when there were 5 clans, each deck could be different depending on the color balance, and the options for 4-color and 5 color were there. Now it's just straight 2-color decks and each one seems to be doing a very specific thing. Seems like it could get old real fast. Note I haven't done a single draft yet, just some sealed events, but I've watched some drafts and so far they've all followed the same 2-color pattern.
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Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
M15 was okay but there were a limited number of deck types and so drafts became not as much fun due to the lack of variety, and I am concerned that DTK may have a similar issue. In KTK I enjoyed the huge number of combinations of colors, not to mention deck types, and I also enjoyed the decisions of spell vs land during a draft. THS block decks were also usually limited to 2 colors but in the final draft format for that block there were 3 sets of cards so there was in my view enough variety there to be very enjoyable.
Still, I think DTK should be fun, more so than M15. I enjoy the dynamic of face down creatures being able to flip as that adds an element of strategy and variety.
Another thought, I think white is pretty weak. Actually I think Dromoka is weak. I've 3-0'd with RB Dash, UB Exploit, and RG Formidable, but whenever I play against a WG deck, I just steamroll them and feel like it's a weak deck. I'm sure you can build successful WG decks but anyone else feel this way?
I have played WGr and had success with it, but I think that there is only one way to play it. My decks center almost completely on counters and bolster. You can get a playset of Servant of the Scale pretty easily and I think a lot of people overlook it. Add the megamorphing, etc and stuff gets pretty big pretty fast. But even then white is only feeding G.
I think I'm going to dislike the fact there are basically just 5 decks now. Even before, when there were 5 clans, each deck could be different depending on the color balance, and the options for 4-color and 5 color were there. Now it's just straight 2-color decks and each one seems to be doing a very specific thing. Seems like it could get old real fast. Note I haven't done a single draft yet, just some sealed events, but I've watched some drafts and so far they've all followed the same 2-color pattern.
There is 10 decks, but yeah they are all two color. Most of the multi color dragons aren't even that good (Mythics excepting). I like GB and UR especially. Oh WB too. Not as big a fan of UG or WR though.
The format so far has played very cleanly. None of the archetypes are overwhelming or oppressive, and they all feature interesting play patterns. The only unbeatable bombs are the cards that are supposed to feel like unbeatable bombs (Dragonlords). The 5 factions reward you for going deep but aren't as all-or-nothing as something like Ravnica block. Even white, the worst color, is still very playable. Removal is ubiquitous, but never a catch-all. Megamorph hogties the format less than it did in KTK. In some ways, it's a pretty ideal format.
That said, I will echo the concern that there's not a lot of hidden layers to it. The format isn't absurdly fast, but it is demanding enough that durdling around with stuff like "toughness matters" and "multicolor dragons" just gets you outpaced or out-valued.
I think it sucks that they make cards like Dragonlord Dromoka. I hate beating my opponent down with a good curve and good play, and then having it not matter when they drop their huge bomb at 6 mana that just simply cannot be beaten without one of a few removal spells that could deal with it. One thing I can never understand is why Wizards feels the need to put huge stats on flyers. They're just so un-fun to play against. Go ahead and make a flyer with lifelink and "opponents can't cast spells during your turn", but for crying out loud, make it a 3/3 tops. It's like they have to push the cards on every possible dimension (casting cost, power, toughness, and multiple abilities). Yeah I know it's mythic but I don't like playing games where nothing that happens in the first 7 turns matters if my opponent had Dromoka in the top 15 cards of their deck.
Anyway, I still find red to be ridiculous, paired with black, or even better, green. The number of efficient removal spells available in those colors, combined with dash and beef, is just so strong. Sabertooth Outrider is a house and it's really easy to pick up at least one and usually more. I've noticed that people seem to be aware of this as red seems to be often drafted, but when it's open, it's imperative to go into it.
I disagree strongly with your complaints, particularly "never put huge stats on fliers". Big fliers are strong, but they're often slow, expensive, and much easier to interact with than noncreatures like Citadel Siege, Loxodon Warhammer, or the worst planeswalkers. If you lost to Dromoka alone, it's not because your opponent had it in the top 15 cards of their deck, it's because you didn't give yourself a way to beat it in top 18 of yours.
I disagree strongly with your complaints, particularly "never put huge stats on fliers". Big fliers are strong, but they're often slow, expensive, and much easier to interact with than noncreatures like Citadel Siege, Loxodon Warhammer, or the worst planeswalkers. If you lost to Dromoka alone, it's not because your opponent had it in the top 15 cards of their deck, it's because you didn't give yourself a way to beat it in top 18 of yours.
Did you miss the part where I said "without one of the few removal spells that can deal with it"?
If I have a relevant removal spell in my top 18 cards I have an answer to something that will win the game on its own, but the removal spell won't win the game on its own. Dromoka will win the game on its own, easily. It's not an equitable situation. I understand that Dromoka is mythic, but it's just not fun to play with, period. I don't know why they haven't made a card yet that says something like, "7: If your life total is higher than your opponent's, you win the game". Wouldn't that card be alot of fun to play against? Not at all, right? So someone would point out how un-fun it is, and someone else would come along and say, "you were supposed to have a counter spell, [dumb card that is no fun to play against] is fine".
With that there would be not much fun for constructed. Atarka (new one) isn't fun to play with either and if you don't kill it immediately you die. Whisperwood Elemental, Ugin, Wingmate Roc, any of the Titans, Baneslayer Angel, Pack Rat, etc. They're all great pushed constructed cards that pretty much auto win you in limited if you play them. Some more than others. That's why its good they put those cards at Mythic now. Makes it less likely to impact drafts. However if you took out all the cards that are unfun to play against in limited Magic it would ruin the rest of magic.
...I also don't think answers are as rare as bji is claiming. The following commons and uncommons can answer Dromoka:
Death Wind
Encase in Ice
Pacifism
Pinion Feast
Reduce in Stature
Ultimate Price
From Fate, we also have:
Reach of Shadows
Return to the Earth
Shifting Loyalties
Valorous Stance
Now, that's not a huge list, but I also didn't include more conditional removal (Tail Slash, Grim Contest, etc), or bounce/freeze effects.
Dromoka's a bomb mythic. It shouldn't be easy to deal with, but there are answers in the format, and a good deck will have picked up at least one or two of these along the way.
2-turn tempo cards such as Ojutai's Breath from DTK and Will of the Naga from FRF can give you the time to finish off your opponent, Goblin Heelcutter and some other cards can make it not block, and some combat tricks on offense can kill Dragonlord Dromoka if they block with it.
That said, I do not like having extremely bomby cards in any set, no matter the rarity. I like the idea of mythics being very powerful but not ridiculously powerful like Citadel Siege. The Dragonlords walk that line and I'm not sure yet where they fall. If you don't remove one right away then it could be quick curtains.
I disagree strongly with your complaints, particularly "never put huge stats on fliers". Big fliers are strong, but they're often slow, expensive, and much easier to interact with than noncreatures like Citadel Siege, Loxodon Warhammer, or the worst planeswalkers. If you lost to Dromoka alone, it's not because your opponent had it in the top 15 cards of their deck, it's because you didn't give yourself a way to beat it in top 18 of yours.
Did you miss the part where I said "without one of the few removal spells that can deal with it"?
If I have a relevant removal spell in my top 18 cards I have an answer to something that will win the game on its own, but the removal spell won't win the game on its own. Dromoka will win the game on its own, easily. It's not an equitable situation. I understand that Dromoka is mythic, but it's just not fun to play with, period. I don't know why they haven't made a card yet that says something like, "7: If your life total is higher than your opponent's, you win the game". Wouldn't that card be alot of fun to play against? Not at all, right? So someone would point out how un-fun it is, and someone else would come along and say, "you were supposed to have a counter spell, [dumb card that is no fun to play against] is fine".
By "beat it", I don't solely refer to a removal spell. Maybe you're running a Goblin Heelcutter or Glaring Aegis to tap it down and swing through it. Maybe you steal it with Lose Calm. Maybe your opponent is priced into blocking, where you can take it down with a timely Coat with Venom. Maybe you counter it. Maybe you bounce it. Maybe you kill your opponent before they are able to play it. Maybe you're running deathtouch or unblockable creatures that keep your opponent on the back foot. Maybe you build up a formidable enough board that your opponent can't afford to attack you. Maybe you just Sarkhan's Rage their face a couple times. Maybe you have an even bigger bomb than they do. Maybe you use a combination of removal spell + attacker to bring it down. Maybe you bolster up a creature that can actually compete with it in combat. Maybe you flip up a surprise Dirgur Nemesis after suckering them into blocking.
Point is, if you can't do any of these things, then it's not Wizards and fate out to get you, it's a deckbuilding cost you paid when you failed to pick up large creature removal for your durdle-tastic exploit deck. Are you not planning to face big dragons in the dragon set? If bombs were easy to beat, limited would be a much simpler (and less interesting) format than it is.
Every set has its rare bombs that people loves to complain about. Every set has ways to deal with its rare bombs, whether through removals (either good, general ones as well as ones you side in) or through building a deck or playing in an aggressive way to reduce the number of draws you give your opponent and kill him before he can get his bomb online. I've played limited for 10+ years, I find formats where big rare bombs can matter are a lot more fun than formats where the best cards are a bunch of one and two drops that can aggro someone to death by turn 5 (looking at you Gatecrash).
I've liked drafting UG a few times. Tap spells + fatties seems like a reasonable strategy. Also playing defensive ground creatures (like the 2/4) + Ojutai Interceptor is pretty nice.
Round 1 was against an amazing UB exploit deck. I won through a Rakasha Gravecaller exploiting Sultai Emissary using double Ethereal Ambush and my fliers to match his boardstate. He had a Silumgar Sorcerer that blew me out game 1, but games 2 and 3 I was able to play noncreature spells until he tapped out to avoid it.
Round 2 was against a fairly average BG deck. He had a lot of deathtouch creatures that he seemed reliant on to stop agressive decks, but most of my creatures had evasion so he wasn't able to do much.
Round 3 was agains a RW deck splashing for both Dragonlord Kholagan AND [/card]Dragonlord Ojutai[/card]. Game 1 he didn't see either one and I beat him. Game 2 he played both, winning pretty easily. For game 3 I sideboarded in a Contradict and a Neutralizing Blast, and countered his Kholagan.
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Any thoughts on the best draft archetype? I know that's not the best question but perhaps it will lead to some conversation. I currently think people don't value Ambuscade Shaman highly enough. I see it go around rather late and I think it's the most important piece to a successful dash deck (which by the way I think is the best archetype).
I do think U/B Exploit is very good, though I think too many people are drafting it right now. I know Vulturous Aven and Gurmag Drowner are really important for the deck to sustain and maintain its card advantage. However, I'm starting to feel like Palace Familiar, Sultai Emissary, and Jeskai Sage are maybe more important (higher picks) than the exploit card themselves. With the success of R/B Dash and with White being so aggressive, I feel like early drops are so important.
Another thought, I think white is pretty weak. Actually I think Dromoka is weak. I've 3-0'd with RB Dash, UB Exploit, and RG Formidable, but whenever I play against a WG deck, I just steamroll them and feel like it's a weak deck. I'm sure you can build successful WG decks but anyone else feel this way?
Oh my god and the mulliganing. If you don't have at least two creatures casting cost 2 or less in your opening hand, it's nearly an auto mulligan. I have never seen so much mulliganing before, by me or my opponents. It's awful.
If it helps it should be (at least a little) better once the prerelease events are over. The seeded pack makes decks come together more consistently, and online doesn't have the availability balance, so everyone can pick the strongest clans. I'm avoiding online prerelease events, personally.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
M15 was okay but there were a limited number of deck types and so drafts became not as much fun due to the lack of variety, and I am concerned that DTK may have a similar issue. In KTK I enjoyed the huge number of combinations of colors, not to mention deck types, and I also enjoyed the decisions of spell vs land during a draft. THS block decks were also usually limited to 2 colors but in the final draft format for that block there were 3 sets of cards so there was in my view enough variety there to be very enjoyable.
Still, I think DTK should be fun, more so than M15. I enjoy the dynamic of face down creatures being able to flip as that adds an element of strategy and variety.
I have played WGr and had success with it, but I think that there is only one way to play it. My decks center almost completely on counters and bolster. You can get a playset of Servant of the Scale pretty easily and I think a lot of people overlook it. Add the megamorphing, etc and stuff gets pretty big pretty fast. But even then white is only feeding G.
There is 10 decks, but yeah they are all two color. Most of the multi color dragons aren't even that good (Mythics excepting). I like GB and UR especially. Oh WB too. Not as big a fan of UG or WR though.
That said, I will echo the concern that there's not a lot of hidden layers to it. The format isn't absurdly fast, but it is demanding enough that durdling around with stuff like "toughness matters" and "multicolor dragons" just gets you outpaced or out-valued.
Cubetutor Link
Anyway, I still find red to be ridiculous, paired with black, or even better, green. The number of efficient removal spells available in those colors, combined with dash and beef, is just so strong. Sabertooth Outrider is a house and it's really easy to pick up at least one and usually more. I've noticed that people seem to be aware of this as red seems to be often drafted, but when it's open, it's imperative to go into it.
Cubetutor Link
Did you miss the part where I said "without one of the few removal spells that can deal with it"?
If I have a relevant removal spell in my top 18 cards I have an answer to something that will win the game on its own, but the removal spell won't win the game on its own. Dromoka will win the game on its own, easily. It's not an equitable situation. I understand that Dromoka is mythic, but it's just not fun to play with, period. I don't know why they haven't made a card yet that says something like, "7: If your life total is higher than your opponent's, you win the game". Wouldn't that card be alot of fun to play against? Not at all, right? So someone would point out how un-fun it is, and someone else would come along and say, "you were supposed to have a counter spell, [dumb card that is no fun to play against] is fine".
Death Wind
Encase in Ice
Pacifism
Pinion Feast
Reduce in Stature
Ultimate Price
From Fate, we also have:
Reach of Shadows
Return to the Earth
Shifting Loyalties
Valorous Stance
Now, that's not a huge list, but I also didn't include more conditional removal (Tail Slash, Grim Contest, etc), or bounce/freeze effects.
Dromoka's a bomb mythic. It shouldn't be easy to deal with, but there are answers in the format, and a good deck will have picked up at least one or two of these along the way.
That said, I do not like having extremely bomby cards in any set, no matter the rarity. I like the idea of mythics being very powerful but not ridiculously powerful like Citadel Siege. The Dragonlords walk that line and I'm not sure yet where they fall. If you don't remove one right away then it could be quick curtains.
By "beat it", I don't solely refer to a removal spell. Maybe you're running a Goblin Heelcutter or Glaring Aegis to tap it down and swing through it. Maybe you steal it with Lose Calm. Maybe your opponent is priced into blocking, where you can take it down with a timely Coat with Venom. Maybe you counter it. Maybe you bounce it. Maybe you kill your opponent before they are able to play it. Maybe you're running deathtouch or unblockable creatures that keep your opponent on the back foot. Maybe you build up a formidable enough board that your opponent can't afford to attack you. Maybe you just Sarkhan's Rage their face a couple times. Maybe you have an even bigger bomb than they do. Maybe you use a combination of removal spell + attacker to bring it down. Maybe you bolster up a creature that can actually compete with it in combat. Maybe you flip up a surprise Dirgur Nemesis after suckering them into blocking.
Point is, if you can't do any of these things, then it's not Wizards and fate out to get you, it's a deckbuilding cost you paid when you failed to pick up large creature removal for your durdle-tastic exploit deck. Are you not planning to face big dragons in the dragon set? If bombs were easy to beat, limited would be a much simpler (and less interesting) format than it is.
Cubetutor Link
Yeah, was going pretty quickly and spaced on that.
Round 1 was against an amazing UB exploit deck. I won through a Rakasha Gravecaller exploiting Sultai Emissary using double Ethereal Ambush and my fliers to match his boardstate. He had a Silumgar Sorcerer that blew me out game 1, but games 2 and 3 I was able to play noncreature spells until he tapped out to avoid it.
Round 2 was against a fairly average BG deck. He had a lot of deathtouch creatures that he seemed reliant on to stop agressive decks, but most of my creatures had evasion so he wasn't able to do much.
Round 3 was agains a RW deck splashing for both Dragonlord Kholagan AND [/card]Dragonlord Ojutai[/card]. Game 1 he didn't see either one and I beat him. Game 2 he played both, winning pretty easily. For game 3 I sideboarded in a Contradict and a Neutralizing Blast, and countered his Kholagan.