Hi all. I was wondering what people's thoughts were on valley dasher now that we have had some time to play with KTK? When the set was first released, I heard some calling the card 'unplayable', 'horrible', etc., but now having played with it a lot I really like it. 2 drops are pretty good in a set with morphs, and this guy just blazes out of the gate on turn 2 to put your opponent on a fast clock. Even late game I find them useful to add to my horde in an alpha strike to give me an unforeseen numbers advantage out of nowhere. Maybe it's just my agro play-style preference?
Even played on turn 2, I basically always see this guy get in 2-4 damage and then suicide, sort of like a smaller Lava Axe that only works if you cast it on turn 2 (i.e., not the time you want to be casting Lava Axe). My current evaluation is basically, at the risk of sounding harsh, "not a Magic card."
Can you qualify your statement? I don't see this guy dying before turn 5 without trading with something, since the opponent will not have enough mana to unmorph anything before then and there are very few hill giants in the format. I see this guy as a 2 drop that does 2 damage before trading with a morph/kill spell/combat trick, which is a good deal for 1R mana.
Very deck dependent card is how I would say it. In an aggro-deck, you could do worse, but not much. If you are going very wide then it becomes OK, but still not great. Using the LR chart, I'd rate it about a D, D+ in the deck that wants to go wide.
Personally, I like it, it fits very well into the heavy morph format, especially when backed up by tricks / removal. But I'd try to side it out against most base white decks. Mardu Hordechief and Alabaster Kirin are basically its kryptonite.
Can you qualify your statement? I don't see this guy dying before turn 5 without trading with something, since the opponent will not have enough mana to unmorph anything before then and there are very few hill giants in the format. I see this guy as a 2 drop that does 2 damage before trading with a morph/kill spell/combat trick, which is a good deal for 1R mana.
Anything with 3+ toughness stops it, of which there are a few for 2-3 mana and lots at 4. It generally doesn't actually die until after the opponent's turn 4 or 5, barring Mardu Hordechief.
Anything with 3+ toughness stops it, of which there are a few for 2-3 mana and lots at 4. It generally doesn't actually die until after the opponent's turn 4 or 5, barring Mardu Hordechief.
I would argue that even if it's stopped by an Archer's Parapet or something like that, it can still help your other creatures get through for damage.
Of course, that assumes you're playing something aggressive that can curve out with reasonable consistency. He's basically an F in any other deck.
The card is fine in WRb tokens but it seems like Mardu and Abzan are overdrafted for now so that deck never comes together. If you can go wide enough and Trumpet Blast or Rush of Battle you can kill on turn 5, but I haven't done that outside of Mardu-seeded prerelease. In any other deck I don't like it and would prefer any other 2-drop.
Anything with 3+ toughness stops it, of which there are a few for 2-3 mana and lots at 4. It generally doesn't actually die until after the opponent's turn 4 or 5, barring Mardu Hordechief.
Don't agree with this statement. Let's examine commons:
alabaster Kirin 4cc
jeskai student 2cc
mardu hordechief 3cc
salt road patrol 4cc
embodyment of spring 2cc
monastery flock 3cc
disowned ancestor 2CC
sidisi's pet 4cc
unyielding Krumar 4
mardu warshrieker 4
summit prowler 4
archer's parapet 2
longshot squad 4
So, from this list there are only 7 cards that can kill a dasher (without trading) by turn 4, and 2 of those are red, so we can assume a lot less chance of them showing up. That's not a lot of things to worry about in the first 4 turns, and after that either you don't care or you have some kill/tricks of your own to help the dashers.
I dislike this card, but it can fit in a very focused aggro deck. Too often it just dies too quickly, but if you get lucky and face a slow deck and you are on the play, then it can get in enough damage to justify its temporary nature, if you have a deck which can finish.
The guy is playable in the situation where you can expect to get him through for 4 damage, because you wouldn't play him in any deck that wasn't actively looking to trade cards for damage. Unfortunately, since he must attack, blocking him with something like an Archer's Parapet is basically the same as removing him, making him a lot harder to justify.
I've seen him do good work, though I've also seen him get played on turn 6 and accomplish zilch. Not the kind of card I ever want to play for that reason (and happily I've never had reason to). I'd much rather run a card that actually gives me options once in a while.
I've played against Valley Dasher a fair bit, and I don't think it's ever been good against me. It's dealt some damage, sure. But then it typically gets eaten 1-for-0. It's like a Lava Axe that only works if it's in your opening hand.
I think aggressive Red decks should probably play it because it's still scary Turn 2 on the play, but I would never go out of my way to draft one. I consider it a late inclusion into a Red aggro deck.
I think the summary is that it can be played and can definitely see success. The more focused the deck the better they become. Though this is really true with any other deck/card. I think of just playing it as a one of is rather weak as was discussed earlier. That is why this card can tend to table and if you get enough of them and throw them in with some Trumpet Blast and Hordeling Outburst, you can have a pretty good deck. Though when comparing them to the other 2 drop creatures in the format, you pretty much would want all of the other ones...
In other words, KTK:All-in Aggro::most core sets:Mill.
Seriously though, you have to be really all-in to want Valley Dasher, and why would you ever want to play all-in aggro in a format with as much depth and as many decisions as KTK? Sure, it punishes some of the slower strategies and you can get some free wins that way, but you do it at the expense of having any interesting games. You may as well just roll the die to see who wins.
For me, it's barely a 23rd card as a one-of in Mardu and Jeskai decks if I don't have enough 2 drops.
It's both better and worse than Riot Piker from Dragon's Maze - haste vs. no first strike. It reminds me of Piker in that it helps to have a lot of combat tricks with these forced-attackers, both for value and as a "reverse" bluff of sorts (many times in DGR drafts people would be afraid of blocking the Piker with their better 3 and 4 drops). But there's fewer good combat tricks in KTK than in DGR, so I have to rate it as below playable.
Seriously though, you have to be really all-in to want Valley Dasher, and why would you ever want to play all-in aggro in a format with as much depth and as many decisions as KTK? Sure, it punishes some of the slower strategies and you can get some free wins that way, but you do it at the expense of having any interesting games. You may as well just roll the die to see who wins.
I highly disagree with the sentiment that playing aggressive decks leads to inherently uninteresting games. The depth of KTK comes not just from huge ground stalls, but from the variety of decks that can be drafted and played, including aggressive decks. Games may tend to be shorter, but they are full of tension and critical decisions that can each make the difference between winning and losing.
Long, grindy games could be oversimplified as a waiting game to see who can draw the first unanswerable threat. I think that would be a representation that is just as unjustified.
I didn't say that playing aggressive decks leads to inherently uninteresting games. I said playing all-in aggro with cards that remove choices from you leads to inherently uninteresting games.
When you play the sort of deck in which Valley Dasher is actually playable rather than a desperate 24th card, you're deliberately giving up any control over the game in hopes that your opponent can't deal. If he can, you probably lose. You're resting everything on that gambit, and it isn't an interesting one.
You know what isn't interesting? Losing with a slow durdly 5 colour monster that gets mana screwed. I find winning interesting and aggro just gives me the most wins for my playstyle.
I'm fine with that. I'm not personally a big fan, but I understand the appeal of aggro decks in general. What Valley Dasher does isn't contributing to just an aggro deck, though. It's more like a combo deck than anything, just one that happens to win through creature combat. You play out your hand and hope it sticks. 3 turns later, either you've won or else you've lost, and you've been kinda sitting there watching your cards do their thing the whole time without any actual input. Honestly, the game is actually more interesting for your opponent because at least he has to plan ahead and make choices about how aggressively to trade and stuff. All you're doing is cheering your cards on from the sidelines.
Then, I'd like to suggest that in a clear aggro vs. control matchup, it is in your best interest to be all-in. If your opponent can stabilize, you are likely to lose whether or not you have a long game plan, because theirs is definitely going to be better. So being as consistent as possible in the early game is ideal. Of course, you also play cards (removal, tempo, tricks) to help make sure your opponent can't deal, not just relying on hope.
I will concede that such a deck sacrifices choices against a similar speed deck though. There are definitely situations where you have to turn on the brakes because you got the slower draw or whatever, and Valley Dasher doesn't let you do that.
I don't like him, but he's definitely a fine creature in dedicated Rx Aggro / Mardu Aggro decks. Becomes better the more removal-heavy, the more fast-deploying, raid-loving, Trumpet Blasting type of a person you are.
Then, I'd like to suggest that in a clear aggro vs. control matchup, it is in your best interest to be all-in. If your opponent can stabilize, you are likely to lose whether or not you have a long game plan, because theirs is definitely going to be better. So being as consistent as possible in the early game is ideal. Of course, you also play cards (removal, tempo, tricks) to help make sure your opponent can't deal, not just relying on hope.
I will concede that such a deck sacrifices choices against a similar speed deck though. There are definitely situations where you have to turn on the brakes because you got the slower draw or whatever, and Valley Dasher doesn't let you do that.
If your draw is slow and you know you cannot keep up the pressure it's best to keep the dasher as a surprise attacker. Because it's so cheap it plays nicely with trumpet blast and act of treason to throw off your opponent's maths and get in that final hit to bring them to arrow storm range.
The thing about valley dasher is that one dasher in a deck is crap, but a whole deck of them with trumpet blasts/act of treason is terrifying. Imagine you going T2 dasher, T3 morph, T4 dasher dasher, while your opponent plays T3 morph, T4 morph, and when they get to the critical 5 mana you go T5 dasher trumpet blast/act of treason.
RBGLiving EndRBG
EDH
UFblthpU
BRXantchaRB
BGVarolzGB
URWZedruuWRU
I would argue that even if it's stopped by an Archer's Parapet or something like that, it can still help your other creatures get through for damage.
Of course, that assumes you're playing something aggressive that can curve out with reasonable consistency. He's basically an F in any other deck.
Don't agree with this statement. Let's examine commons:
alabaster Kirin 4cc
jeskai student 2cc
mardu hordechief 3cc
salt road patrol 4cc
embodyment of spring 2cc
monastery flock 3cc
disowned ancestor 2CC
sidisi's pet 4cc
unyielding Krumar 4
mardu warshrieker 4
summit prowler 4
archer's parapet 2
longshot squad 4
So, from this list there are only 7 cards that can kill a dasher (without trading) by turn 4, and 2 of those are red, so we can assume a lot less chance of them showing up. That's not a lot of things to worry about in the first 4 turns, and after that either you don't care or you have some kill/tricks of your own to help the dashers.
I've seen him do good work, though I've also seen him get played on turn 6 and accomplish zilch. Not the kind of card I ever want to play for that reason (and happily I've never had reason to). I'd much rather run a card that actually gives me options once in a while.
I think aggressive Red decks should probably play it because it's still scary Turn 2 on the play, but I would never go out of my way to draft one. I consider it a late inclusion into a Red aggro deck.
Seriously though, you have to be really all-in to want Valley Dasher, and why would you ever want to play all-in aggro in a format with as much depth and as many decisions as KTK? Sure, it punishes some of the slower strategies and you can get some free wins that way, but you do it at the expense of having any interesting games. You may as well just roll the die to see who wins.
It's both better and worse than Riot Piker from Dragon's Maze - haste vs. no first strike. It reminds me of Piker in that it helps to have a lot of combat tricks with these forced-attackers, both for value and as a "reverse" bluff of sorts (many times in DGR drafts people would be afraid of blocking the Piker with their better 3 and 4 drops). But there's fewer good combat tricks in KTK than in DGR, so I have to rate it as below playable.
I highly disagree with the sentiment that playing aggressive decks leads to inherently uninteresting games. The depth of KTK comes not just from huge ground stalls, but from the variety of decks that can be drafted and played, including aggressive decks. Games may tend to be shorter, but they are full of tension and critical decisions that can each make the difference between winning and losing.
Long, grindy games could be oversimplified as a waiting game to see who can draw the first unanswerable threat. I think that would be a representation that is just as unjustified.
When you play the sort of deck in which Valley Dasher is actually playable rather than a desperate 24th card, you're deliberately giving up any control over the game in hopes that your opponent can't deal. If he can, you probably lose. You're resting everything on that gambit, and it isn't an interesting one.
Then, I'd like to suggest that in a clear aggro vs. control matchup, it is in your best interest to be all-in. If your opponent can stabilize, you are likely to lose whether or not you have a long game plan, because theirs is definitely going to be better. So being as consistent as possible in the early game is ideal. Of course, you also play cards (removal, tempo, tricks) to help make sure your opponent can't deal, not just relying on hope.
I will concede that such a deck sacrifices choices against a similar speed deck though. There are definitely situations where you have to turn on the brakes because you got the slower draw or whatever, and Valley Dasher doesn't let you do that.
If your draw is slow and you know you cannot keep up the pressure it's best to keep the dasher as a surprise attacker. Because it's so cheap it plays nicely with trumpet blast and act of treason to throw off your opponent's maths and get in that final hit to bring them to arrow storm range.
RBGLiving EndRBG
EDH
UFblthpU
BRXantchaRB
BGVarolzGB
URWZedruuWRU