I love how we seem split between people who think black potentially has the best commons/uncommons and people who think it has the worst. Gives us a proper controversy we can evaluate a month or so down the line.
Totally agree
And I'm a biased-towards-B player. We've just fallen so far from the days of Hideous End and Surrakar Marauder. How insane would Hideous End have been at common in M15?!
And I don't think Black is BAD at the high end of common/uncommon. It just seems that, in this set, every other color has one-up on Black. I may be underestimating the sac/recur "engine" that's available, but it seems really durdly and not especially resilient to pressure.
Sengir Vampire isn't in M15 booster packs/ sealed. It's only in the M15 intro decks.
Which sucks for black, but, we've still got some good 5-drops.
Are you sure!? It's part of M15 according to Gatherer (and this site's spoiler)
There are only 269 cards on the M15 sheets. All M15 cards with collector numbers > 269 are honorary set members that were printed specially for free sample decks for new players (technically in the set so they won't have a problem if they show up to FNM with them), but aren't on the sheets and can't be in boosters.
Sengir Vampire isn't in M15 booster packs/ sealed. It's only in the M15 intro decks.
Which sucks for black, but, we've still got some good 5-drops.
Are you sure!? It's part of M15 according to Gatherer (and this site's spoiler)
There are only 269 cards on the M15 sheets. All M15 cards with collector numbers > 269 are honorary set members that were printed specially for free sample decks for new players (technically in the set so they won't have a problem if they show up to FNM with them), but aren't on the sheets and can't be in boosters.
And I thought I couldn't read spoilers before...
Ok, so Black is even worse than I thought. LOL. It makes me so sad.
If it makes you feel any better about black, some of the cards you mentioned in other colors aren't in the set either. No Serra Angel, no Centaur Courser, for example.
Edit: To see which ones aren't "really" in the set, try looking at the MTGS spoiler again. At the end of each color, you'll notice that the alphabetization starts over for the last few cards; those are the "honorary" M15 cards (they'll have numbers like "280/269", as a double check).
I'm leaning towards Red. The promo is expensive, but there are tools in the set to power him out sooner, maybe even as a hasty 5/5 on turn 5. That's fine by me. Also, since everyone seems to like the Black promo so much, Red has the most ways of getting rid of him. I'll be banking my first Lightning Strike as soon as I see a Black promo box sitting across from me.
I'm now getting more excited for red. It really has all the tools of a main color. Good removal, good low drop creatures, and a premium finisher. Blue seems like a good candidate for a support color, especially if a few good artifacts make the team.
I do feel like Red is the other leading contender after black, with a large gap between those two and the rest.
I don't think white looks very promising for the prerelease specifically. I don't think a single one of its commons seems particularly good if you're not all-in on the Raise the Alarm/Triplicate Spirits token/convoke deck, which should come together less reliably in sealed than in draft. Its 7-drop promo also suffers from its commons lacking acceleration or good control tools; the 7-mana dragon is at least supported by red's superior removal and Generator Servant.
The interesting thing is that while I think Red and Black are the strongest colors, I don't know that they pair well together on the whole. Black has much slower cards than Red. White and Blue seem to go better with either color. However, the "gold" Red/Black card is insane as a curve topper. We'll see.
Black/Red aggro is so ridiculous in this format, though. If you can pull some lightning strikes, stab wounds, child of nights and that intimidate goblin, you're going to be tough to beat, especially if you have the black or red promo for the late game bomb after they've wasted removal on your weaker creatures because they had to.
I love how we seem split between people who think black potentially has the best commons/uncommons and people who think it has the worst. Gives us a proper controversy we can evaluate a month or so down the line.
Et cetera. This is how I'm looking at Black in M15 right now. I may be wrong.
All right, I disagree with you a lot here, so here goes: Stab Wound Anyone who played rtr knows how great this card is. Against slow decks, it wins the game. Against fast decks, it's removal. Not good removal, but it kills some key targets like the paragons, accursed spirit, and borderland marauder. Necrogen Scudder: Do you not get evasion? This format has no Air Elementals under rare, so aside from geist of the moors (Which dies to festergloom and crippling blight) This rules the skies. Absolutely killer card. Ulcerate: While it does compare poorly to lightning strike, it's still very, very good. Due to stuff like indulgent tormentor, kapsho kitefins, and miner's bane, this stays relevant into the lategame. Accursed Spirit: Again, do you not get evasion? Accursed spirit is way better than oreskos swiftclaw, and a completeley different beast from both it and the marauder. Intimidate prevents it from losing relevance in most matchups, although will-forged golem does make it weaker than usual. Oreskos Swiftclaw shouldn't be too good in this set due to all the 1/1 tokens, forge devil, and the aforementioned black removal.
Also with ulcerate remember that as a shrink effect and not a damage effect it doubles as a combat trick. You might not be able to kill a will-forged golem with it outright but you can get a 2/2 (or 3/2 intimidate as the case may be) in combat with it first then kill it, where something like lightning strike would require your creature to trade.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"A scrupulous writer, in every sentence that he writes, will ask himself at least four questions, thus: 1. What am I trying to say? 2. What words will express it? 3. What image or idiom will make it clearer? 4. Is this image fresh enough to have an effect? And he will probably ask himself two more: 1. Could I put it more shortly? 2. Have I said anything that is avoidably ugly?"
I originally thought black was the way to go, but I would be unexcited to pull 5/8 of blacks rares.
Green on the other hand also has a very strong promo and I would be happy with literally any of the rares from green. I know I will get one from the seeded pack, might as well make it a good one.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
member of clan [limited]
Thanks to mchief111 @ rising studios for the avatar/sig
I originally thought black was the way to go, but I would be unexcited to pull 5/8 of blacks rares.
Green on the other hand also has a very strong promo and I would be happy with literally any of the rares from green. I know I will get one from the seeded pack, might as well make it a good one.
You do realize phytotitan comes back on your next upkeep and enters tapped, right? I think the green one's pretty weak. And, on average, you're getting 1-2 rares for your seeded color. The black promo is better than most of them. I just think black will be consistently solid, if unexciting.
I do feel like Red is the other leading contender after black, with a large gap between those two and the rest.
I don't think white looks very promising for the prerelease specifically. I don't think a single one of its commons seems particularly good if you're not all-in on the Raise the Alarm/Triplicate Spirits token/convoke deck, which should come together less reliably in sealed than in draft. Its 7-drop promo also suffers from its commons lacking acceleration or good control tools; the 7-mana dragon is at least supported by red's superior removal and Generator Servant.
The Generator Servant + Siege Dragon combo looks so powerful on paper. Being able to get a quick dragon and swing immediately to wipe some creatures can devastate your opponent in short order.
Also you get to play the best card in the set, Cone of Flame.
It looks like PVDDR's article on channelfireball.com pretty much agrees with my conclusions about Red being the best and Black being the worst color (with the Promo being its one redeeming factor), so I'm feeling good about my read on this format. My sentiment about Black being the "jack of all trades, master of none" in this set is even echoed, there.
Ive jumpped back and forth between black and red for the last couple days..But I think I might actully go green.
Red has a lot of removal sure, but it flat out dies to triplicate spirit, im pretty sure the white promo also is almost insta game vs red. As how often does red win vs an oppoent who reset theie life total. Imo Red needs green for netcaster spiders and more beef
Black has the strongsst promo sure but dies to tons of removal. Also I feel like its weak vs red due to all the paying of life spellls and abilities. I think red may be the second most popular color.
Green just has big creatures and ways to deal with flyers with netcaster spider and plummet at common. Most well rounded? Only lacking removal (pair with red or black)
Also, although I dont think white is very good. Raise the alarm Into triplicate spirits +green convoke cards would make an insane deck (white has ok removal)
So by picking green I can hope for either a good red or black pool to pair with it. And maybe even white if I end up with 3 triplicate spirits.Imo green maybe not the best, but can deal with most threats through size or commons (plummet and spider). And imo pairs well with 3 other colors
In terms of Promo card, would you not think Master of Predicaments would be a better and wayyy more fun card? I personally think this would be a great promo, especially for the newer players to experience a fun and "powerful" card. I personally am choosing black simply because I want the promo for edh decks.
Red has a lot of removal sure, but it flat out dies to triplicate spirit, im pretty sure the white promo also is almost insta game vs red. As how often does red win vs an oppoent who reset theie life total. Imo Red needs green for netcaster spiders and more beef
If a White mage is tapping their blockers to cast 3 1/1s, the red deck will just keep beating down. Additionally, this is not M14s red deck. There are big things, evasive things, and even a decent amount of trample.
Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth (included since it seems to count as one of black's rares) - Not playable in Limited. It just isn't.
It replaces Swamp. You would always want to play this in sealed.
Pretty much this. The only situation I can see taking this out is if you are against an opponent playing black and you see a lot of double black on his/her card faces.
In terms of Promo card, would you not think Master of Predicaments would be a better and wayyy more fun card? I personally think this would be a great promo, especially for the newer players to experience a fun and "powerful" card. I personally am choosing black simply because I want the promo for edh decks.
WotC likes low complexity rares (relatively speaking) for prerelease promos. This one, I think, is just too much for a new player to be excited about.
WotC likes low complexity rares (relatively speaking) for prerelease promos. This one, I think, is just too much for a new player to be excited about.
They all have a ton of text on them. White is probably the simplest because it is the only one that has a single trigger. All the others have repeatable triggers that a new player could easily screw up.
I originally thought black was the way to go, but I would be unexcited to pull 5/8 of blacks rares.
Green on the other hand also has a very strong promo and I would be happy with literally any of the rares from green. I know I will get one from the seeded pack, might as well make it a good one.
You do realize phytotitan comes back on your next upkeep and enters tapped, right? I think the green one's pretty weak. And, on average, you're getting 1-2 rares for your seeded color. The black promo is better than most of them. I just think black will be consistently solid, if unexciting.
I do realize that. I also realize that in-color with the commons and uncommons it has a decent amount of support. It also just plain wins if the game goes long, and if you pull life's legacy... which is probably the worst rare... that is a mean combo :D.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
member of clan [limited]
Thanks to mchief111 @ rising studios for the avatar/sig
I originally thought black was the way to go, but I would be unexcited to pull 5/8 of blacks rares.
Green on the other hand also has a very strong promo and I would be happy with literally any of the rares from green. I know I will get one from the seeded pack, might as well make it a good one.
You do realize phytotitan comes back on your next upkeep and enters tapped, right? I think the green one's pretty weak. And, on average, you're getting 1-2 rares for your seeded color. The black promo is better than most of them. I just think black will be consistently solid, if unexciting.
I do realize that. I also realize that in-color with the commons and uncommons it has a decent amount of support. It also just plain wins if the game goes long, and if you pull life's legacy... which is probably the worst rare... that is a mean combo :D.
That's a big 'if' on Life's Legacy. In a very grindy match, Phytotitan has a big advantage, but it just plain dies and keeps dying to the red promo, doesn't generate nearly as much card advantage as the black promo, and a smart player in white will just hold onto Devouring Light. I'm not saying the combos not there, but I certainly hope a lot of players at my prerelease take green hoping to get it.
White removal, at least at common, is just putrid. Oppressive Rays is unplayable outside of very aggressive decks and unimpressive within them. Pillar of Light is basically Smite the Monstrous, which is not great.
Totally agree
And I'm a biased-towards-B player. We've just fallen so far from the days of Hideous End and Surrakar Marauder. How insane would Hideous End have been at common in M15?!
And I don't think Black is BAD at the high end of common/uncommon. It just seems that, in this set, every other color has one-up on Black. I may be underestimating the sac/recur "engine" that's available, but it seems really durdly and not especially resilient to pressure.
Looking at cards that I think go highly for Black:
Sengir Vampire: It's no Serra Angel
Stab Wound: As removal it's worse than Lightning Strike but the bleeder effect is useful.
Necrogen Scudder: I like this card but I'm not sure this is so much better than Borderland Marauder to say nothing of Centaur Courser - both commons.
Ulcerate: Lightning Strike is vastly superior, and common.
Accursed Spirit: I don't think I would want this over Oreskos Swiftclaw or Borderland Marauder.
Et cetera. This is how I'm looking at Black in M15 right now. I may be wrong.
Which sucks for black, but, we've still got some good 5-drops.
Are you sure!? It's part of M15 according to Gatherer (and this site's spoiler)
And I thought I couldn't read spoilers before...
Ok, so Black is even worse than I thought. LOL. It makes me so sad.
Edit: To see which ones aren't "really" in the set, try looking at the MTGS spoiler again. At the end of each color, you'll notice that the alphabetization starts over for the last few cards; those are the "honorary" M15 cards (they'll have numbers like "280/269", as a double check).
RBGLiving EndRBG
EDH
UFblthpU
BRXantchaRB
BGVarolzGB
URWZedruuWRU
I don't think white looks very promising for the prerelease specifically. I don't think a single one of its commons seems particularly good if you're not all-in on the Raise the Alarm/Triplicate Spirits token/convoke deck, which should come together less reliably in sealed than in draft. Its 7-drop promo also suffers from its commons lacking acceleration or good control tools; the 7-mana dragon is at least supported by red's superior removal and Generator Servant.
RBGLiving EndRBG
EDH
UFblthpU
BRXantchaRB
BGVarolzGB
URWZedruuWRU
All right, I disagree with you a lot here, so here goes:
Stab Wound Anyone who played rtr knows how great this card is. Against slow decks, it wins the game. Against fast decks, it's removal. Not good removal, but it kills some key targets like the paragons, accursed spirit, and borderland marauder.
Necrogen Scudder: Do you not get evasion? This format has no Air Elementals under rare, so aside from geist of the moors (Which dies to festergloom and crippling blight) This rules the skies. Absolutely killer card.
Ulcerate: While it does compare poorly to lightning strike, it's still very, very good. Due to stuff like indulgent tormentor, kapsho kitefins, and miner's bane, this stays relevant into the lategame.
Accursed Spirit: Again, do you not get evasion? Accursed spirit is way better than oreskos swiftclaw, and a completeley different beast from both it and the marauder. Intimidate prevents it from losing relevance in most matchups, although will-forged golem does make it weaker than usual. Oreskos Swiftclaw shouldn't be too good in this set due to all the 1/1 tokens, forge devil, and the aforementioned black removal.
Green on the other hand also has a very strong promo and I would be happy with literally any of the rares from green. I know I will get one from the seeded pack, might as well make it a good one.
member of clan [limited]
Thanks to mchief111 @ rising studios for the avatar/sig
Trade with me: http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=6993873#post6993873
new and updated list!
You do realize phytotitan comes back on your next upkeep and enters tapped, right? I think the green one's pretty weak. And, on average, you're getting 1-2 rares for your seeded color. The black promo is better than most of them. I just think black will be consistently solid, if unexciting.
The Generator Servant + Siege Dragon combo looks so powerful on paper. Being able to get a quick dragon and swing immediately to wipe some creatures can devastate your opponent in short order.
Also you get to play the best card in the set, Cone of Flame.
Indulgent Tormentor nothwithstanding, don't go Black!
Red has a lot of removal sure, but it flat out dies to triplicate spirit, im pretty sure the white promo also is almost insta game vs red. As how often does red win vs an oppoent who reset theie life total. Imo Red needs green for netcaster spiders and more beef
Black has the strongsst promo sure but dies to tons of removal. Also I feel like its weak vs red due to all the paying of life spellls and abilities. I think red may be the second most popular color.
Green just has big creatures and ways to deal with flyers with netcaster spider and plummet at common. Most well rounded? Only lacking removal (pair with red or black)
Also, although I dont think white is very good. Raise the alarm Into triplicate spirits +green convoke cards would make an insane deck (white has ok removal)
So by picking green I can hope for either a good red or black pool to pair with it. And maybe even white if I end up with 3 triplicate spirits.Imo green maybe not the best, but can deal with most threats through size or commons (plummet and spider). And imo pairs well with 3 other colors
Thoughts?
If a White mage is tapping their blockers to cast 3 1/1s, the red deck will just keep beating down. Additionally, this is not M14s red deck. There are big things, evasive things, and even a decent amount of trample.
RBGLiving EndRBG
EDH
UFblthpU
BRXantchaRB
BGVarolzGB
URWZedruuWRU
Pretty much this. The only situation I can see taking this out is if you are against an opponent playing black and you see a lot of double black on his/her card faces.
WotC likes low complexity rares (relatively speaking) for prerelease promos. This one, I think, is just too much for a new player to be excited about.
They all have a ton of text on them. White is probably the simplest because it is the only one that has a single trigger. All the others have repeatable triggers that a new player could easily screw up.
RBGLiving EndRBG
EDH
UFblthpU
BRXantchaRB
BGVarolzGB
URWZedruuWRU
I do realize that. I also realize that in-color with the commons and uncommons it has a decent amount of support. It also just plain wins if the game goes long, and if you pull life's legacy... which is probably the worst rare... that is a mean combo :D.
member of clan [limited]
Thanks to mchief111 @ rising studios for the avatar/sig
Trade with me: http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=6993873#post6993873
new and updated list!
That's a big 'if' on Life's Legacy. In a very grindy match, Phytotitan has a big advantage, but it just plain dies and keeps dying to the red promo, doesn't generate nearly as much card advantage as the black promo, and a smart player in white will just hold onto Devouring Light. I'm not saying the combos not there, but I certainly hope a lot of players at my prerelease take green hoping to get it.