I'm very curious to know what you guys think of this card. In my first draft a couple of days ago (which was JJJ not JBT, to be fair), I played UG and had two of these guys in my pool. I played both of them, and left the draft very, very conflicted. There were games where these guys were the sole reason I won, and games where they were the sole reason I lost.
I originally rated this card very highly. I expected that my opponent would need to spend a card to answer this, mitigating the drawback significantly. I discovered that, in practice, this isn't the case. Triggers were flying around left and right to knock these guys down. I quickly realized that unless I was alpha striking, bestowing onto my own creature was a recipe for disaster. As an on-curve 3cc 4/4, it wasn't terrible, but not exciting. And yes, there were a couple of cute interactions with bestowing it onto my opponent's creatures and using a constellation trigger to turn this into a 3UU kill spell that left behind a body, but I doubt I would be able to draft a deck where that's a regular occurrence.
I've gone from thinking this card is "very good" to "marginally playable," but I may be overreacting to the results of a single draft. What do you guys think about the shy Nautilus?
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It's not your job to win games of Magic where you're mana screwed.
It's your job win every game of Magic where you're not.
This seems too harsh. The effect is powerful enough in either of its forms to be playable -- it just has high variance. Obviously you can't run it onto the board on your own creature if your opponent has a targeting effect out. Other than that situation, your opponent has to have an instant speed trick to avoid taking 6+ damage or chump blocking. Either way you're getting a 1-for-1 out of your Nautilus or hitting for a bunch of damage. (Not to mention you get a 4/4.) Sometimes your opponent won't have any effects and it will just win the game.
If your opponent does have a free trick on the board, then just wait until you can put it on something of theirs and kill it. Not an ideal use of a card but like I said, it has high variance. Sometimes it will steal games, sometimes it will cost too much for what it can realistically do against a specific board state. It's pretty hard to get blown out by it though since there aren't that many free targeting effects in Theros block.
I would draft it over most filler cards just because of the upside.
I've gotten beaten down by this card and I've had it die to an enters the battlefield ability. It's so high variance I would generally rather play something else.
I've gotten beaten down by this card and I've had it die to an enters the battlefield ability. It's so high variance I would generally rather play something else.
That was exactly my experience. Where I stand on it now (I think) is that this guy is a late first-pack pick. If he's still sitting in the pack around 8th, and I'm definitely in blue, I'll probably take him and stick him in my sideboard pile. If I end up needing to make playables, he's not bad. Otherwise, I'll only play him if I think that the rest of my deck can, a reasonable amount of the time, use him as a removal spell (bestowing him onto another player's creature with an Oakheart Dryads on the battlefield is pretty sweet).
I am also firmly of the opinion that you never bestow him onto your own stuff unless it's guaranteed lethal.
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It's not your job to win games of Magic where you're mana screwed.
It's your job win every game of Magic where you're not.
I ran across an interesting corner case this weekend. I was in a race situation, I had lethal power of tapped fliers, I was at 3, and he had a 2/2 with Nautilus previously bestowed on it plus another lethal creature. I discovered the hard way that there was no point at which I could cast Glimpse the Sun God in order to not die.
In general the card is really swingy as everyone else has said. At this point I think I don't like playing it unless I have at least two or three sources of free targeting. I imagine that some small percentage of the time it's the best card in the deck though.
I ran across an interesting corner case this weekend. I was in a race situation, I had lethal power of tapped fliers, I was at 3, and he had a 2/2 with Nautilus previously bestowed on it plus another lethal creature. I discovered the hard way that there was no point at which I could cast Glimpse the Sun God in order to not die.
In general the card is really swingy as everyone else has said. At this point I think I don't like playing it unless I have at least two or three sources of free targeting. I imagine that some small percentage of the time it's the best card in the deck though.
This card is significantly better if you consider it a removal spell that leaves behind a fragile 4/4 body. Play it with any of those aforementioned common cards (or any number of uncommons), blow up their best creature with Nautilus and then get a 4/4 body to show. That puts pressure on them to have an immediate answer, otherwise you get to attack with your "bonus" from your removal spell.
This card is significantly better if you consider it a removal spell that leaves behind a fragile 4/4 body. Play it with any of those aforementioned common cards (or any number of uncommons), blow up their best creature with Nautilus and then get a 4/4 body to show. That puts pressure on them to have an immediate answer, otherwise you get to attack with your "bonus" from your removal spell.
Yep. Or wait for a tap out and play a blue lava axe on your early drops.
I like it. I think it is versatile but dangerous. You have to respect a blue kill spell. If nautilus was black it would be terrible
Or wait for a tap out and play a blue lava axe on your early drops.
I think this is the component that people are underestimating. Anyone saying you should never cast Nautilus on your own creature is being far too risk averse. It's a Lava Axe Plus, considering it's in a color with plenty of evasion. Yes, you have to be careful how you play it but isn't that true of any creature enhancing spell? You don't really want to Bestow anything against a bunch of open mana.
Can it backfire? Obviously. But you should not assume it will backfire. That's too conservative of an interpretation of the card.
Likewise, you should not assume that it can function as a removal spell. Sometimes you won't be able to target that thing you want to suit up with the Nautilus.
This is a skill testing card because it offers a very complex set of probabilities, and proper use is going to vary by situation. Don't be afraid of skill testing cards, embrace them! If you wait to get a Nautilus 8th pick or whatever -- you're never going to get one. Smarter players are going to scoop them up and beat you with them.
I predict this card is going to rise in popularity significantly once we have more experience with it in play, in the full format. I bet it's a 3rd or 4th pick on average in a couple of weeks. It reminds me a bit of Hopeful Eidolon in that it looks pretty bad on paper but just plays a lot better than it looks in this type of format. Remember back when everyone said Hopeful Eidolon was an unplayable trap?
I don't remember people calling Hopeful Eidolon "unplayable" (but it was certainly underrated in this format).
I think it will be perfectly possible to pick this up 8th pick if blue is reasonably open. I understand why Eidolon was better than it initially looked. This seems, if anything, worse than it might otherwise be in this format because there are a zillion combat tricks.
I will be surprised if using this as removal ends up being anything than a desperation play. It's 2-for-1ing yourself unless you have a way to target without spending a card that you can afford after casting a 5 mana spell. That's a lot of conditions.
I played Illusionary Armor armor in M14. This is that with upside (you can suit up a weenie and be left with a 4/4). Now, there were waaay less targeting effects in M14, so balance you rating accordingly. I'm picking this up in the 7-9 range, and almost always planning on bestowing it on my creature.
Illusionary armor was playable in M14, but not exactly exciting. It would also be better in this block than Nautilus.
I still think the jury's out on whether Nautilus is a great card, but I take issue with your assertion that Illusionary Armor would be better in this block than Nautilus. Nautilus is a strictly better version of Armor (except for the extra blue in the bestow cost). They both give +4/+4 and the illusion ability for 5 mana, but Nautilus can be played for 3 mana as a creature and it leaves behind a 4/4 when the enchanted creature dies.
[quote from="masterplum" url="http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/limited-sealed-draft/556548-crystalline-nautilus?comment=11"]This is a skill testing card because it offers a very complex set of probabilities, and proper use is going to vary by situation. Don't be afraid of skill testing cards, embrace them! If you wait to get a Nautilus 8th pick or whatever -- you're never going to get one. Smarter players are going to scoop them up and beat you with them.
On the flip side, don't fall into the trap of picking the card too highly because you put too high of a premium on your own skill to play the card correctly. Even if you play it correctly, you're still taking on the risk of having a dead card in hand (because not playing it is correct) and giving up a pick for a potentially more useful card (not that significant of a downside, but not irrelevant).
I tend to value consistency in my cards, and while I appreciate and respect the power of swingy effects, I don't think the upside of this card mitigates its downside enough to pick it over more consistently effective cards early in the draft. This card won't push me into blue, but if I know I'm blue, I'm willing to have it in my pool. This means that I'll often pick something else in picks 1-5, and unless this guy falls to the middle of the pack, I won't end up with it that often. Obvious if the second pick is a bunch of garbage and a Nautilus, I'm not going to arbitrarily pass it, but there's a good chance I end up valuing this guy less than others. And I'm of course willing to change my mind if evidence starts piling up in its favor, but I'm going to start lower on this card.
I guess I'm just saying I'm not willing to spend a top draft pick on a Manziel if I can get a Clowney instead, but if he falls late in the first round I'd happily snatch him up (a little NFL draft reference for those who care :)). It's about getting the right value for your pick.
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It's not your job to win games of Magic where you're mana screwed.
It's your job win every game of Magic where you're not.
I played last weekend with crystalline nautilus, it did do work, but overall Im leaning towards the bad card. This card has several modes, but are all bad:
1. As a fragile 4/4 for 3. Not a very good card in a meta filled of bestow, combat tricks,etc. Personally I think its the "best" mode as it forces your opponent to use a card on it, but, generally is not great.
2. As a 4/4 Bestow card for your team. This is comparable to mischief and mayhem, which on the right deck could end as a finisher, but generally was not great. The advantage is that it leaves a 4/4 body (see #1). The bad side is....bestow mode gives your opponent almost a "free" kill spell, and in a format that lacks kill spells, this is not great.
3. As pseudo-removal. This is a "living the dream" mode. You need to have at least 6 mana, 5 for the bestow and 1 more minimum to be able to target your opponents creature. In a slower/sealed it can do work, but effectively there are better things that can be done for 6 mana...AND you need to spend one of your combat trick or kill spells anyway (unless you have activated abilities). WAY too situational
So overall...Wayyy too situational...maybe a sideboard card.
My buddies and I drafted triple-JOU over the weekend and I had a couple of these in a UW midrangey deck with a little Constellation theme.
I agree with the OP that the card can leave you very conflicted.
If you're on curve and you're playing an aggressive deck, I think the Nautilus fills an ok role as your three-drop. This is especially good when you have a solid 4 drop to follow it up.
I used him once to act as a removal (a very expensive one at that) for my opponents' Hero's Bane.
As a Constellation-enabler, I guess you can do better but 4 power on board is still pretty ok. He also only has one U in his casting cost which makes him relatively easy to cast.If he gets ignored, smashing with 4 power is always good.
If you're opponent has cards that RoadsarePoison mentioned (especially the tapping dog) then he's really bad. If not, I think he's ok at best and will always make your opponents think if they want to waste a combat trick / removal to get rid of him.
Yeah I agree the best way to use this card is as a 5-drop, so it should be drafted accordingly (aka not that highly because 5-drops are easy to load up on).
Yeah I agree the best way to use this card is as a 5-drop, so it should be drafted accordingly (aka not that highly because 5-drops are easy to load up on).
And Mode 3 (bestowing on opponent's creature) is more than likely going to require some more mana (and maybe a card) to target it, so practically that mode is more akin to a 7-drop or so.
@Dolphan
You're absolutely right! Still, Armor leaves behind the original creature and Nautilus leaves behind a 4/4 (with a drawback). In many situations the Nautilus would still be preferable depending on the size of the enchanted creature.
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I'm very curious to know what you guys think of this card. In my first draft a couple of days ago (which was JJJ not JBT, to be fair), I played UG and had two of these guys in my pool. I played both of them, and left the draft very, very conflicted. There were games where these guys were the sole reason I won, and games where they were the sole reason I lost.
I originally rated this card very highly. I expected that my opponent would need to spend a card to answer this, mitigating the drawback significantly. I discovered that, in practice, this isn't the case. Triggers were flying around left and right to knock these guys down. I quickly realized that unless I was alpha striking, bestowing onto my own creature was a recipe for disaster. As an on-curve 3cc 4/4, it wasn't terrible, but not exciting. And yes, there were a couple of cute interactions with bestowing it onto my opponent's creatures and using a constellation trigger to turn this into a 3UU kill spell that left behind a body, but I doubt I would be able to draft a deck where that's a regular occurrence.
I've gone from thinking this card is "very good" to "marginally playable," but I may be overreacting to the results of a single draft. What do you guys think about the shy Nautilus?
It's your job win every game of Magic where you're not.
This seems too harsh. The effect is powerful enough in either of its forms to be playable -- it just has high variance. Obviously you can't run it onto the board on your own creature if your opponent has a targeting effect out. Other than that situation, your opponent has to have an instant speed trick to avoid taking 6+ damage or chump blocking. Either way you're getting a 1-for-1 out of your Nautilus or hitting for a bunch of damage. (Not to mention you get a 4/4.) Sometimes your opponent won't have any effects and it will just win the game.
If your opponent does have a free trick on the board, then just wait until you can put it on something of theirs and kill it. Not an ideal use of a card but like I said, it has high variance. Sometimes it will steal games, sometimes it will cost too much for what it can realistically do against a specific board state. It's pretty hard to get blown out by it though since there aren't that many free targeting effects in Theros block.
I would draft it over most filler cards just because of the upside.
its kinda good.
Akroan Mastiff
Bloodcrazed Hoplite
Harvestguard alseids
Oakheart Dryads
Satyr Grovedancer
Stonewise Fortifier
Supply-Line Cranes
I've gotten beaten down by this card and I've had it die to an enters the battlefield ability. It's so high variance I would generally rather play something else.
That was exactly my experience. Where I stand on it now (I think) is that this guy is a late first-pack pick. If he's still sitting in the pack around 8th, and I'm definitely in blue, I'll probably take him and stick him in my sideboard pile. If I end up needing to make playables, he's not bad. Otherwise, I'll only play him if I think that the rest of my deck can, a reasonable amount of the time, use him as a removal spell (bestowing him onto another player's creature with an Oakheart Dryads on the battlefield is pretty sweet).
I am also firmly of the opinion that you never bestow him onto your own stuff unless it's guaranteed lethal.
It's your job win every game of Magic where you're not.
In general the card is really swingy as everyone else has said. At this point I think I don't like playing it unless I have at least two or three sources of free targeting. I imagine that some small percentage of the time it's the best card in the deck though.
In general the card is really swingy as everyone else has said. At this point I think I don't like playing it unless I have at least two or three sources of free targeting. I imagine that some small percentage of the time it's the best card in the deck though.
Yep. Or wait for a tap out and play a blue lava axe on your early drops.
I like it. I think it is versatile but dangerous. You have to respect a blue kill spell. If nautilus was black it would be terrible
I think this is the component that people are underestimating. Anyone saying you should never cast Nautilus on your own creature is being far too risk averse. It's a Lava Axe Plus, considering it's in a color with plenty of evasion. Yes, you have to be careful how you play it but isn't that true of any creature enhancing spell? You don't really want to Bestow anything against a bunch of open mana.
Can it backfire? Obviously. But you should not assume it will backfire. That's too conservative of an interpretation of the card.
Likewise, you should not assume that it can function as a removal spell. Sometimes you won't be able to target that thing you want to suit up with the Nautilus.
This is a skill testing card because it offers a very complex set of probabilities, and proper use is going to vary by situation. Don't be afraid of skill testing cards, embrace them! If you wait to get a Nautilus 8th pick or whatever -- you're never going to get one. Smarter players are going to scoop them up and beat you with them.
I predict this card is going to rise in popularity significantly once we have more experience with it in play, in the full format. I bet it's a 3rd or 4th pick on average in a couple of weeks. It reminds me a bit of Hopeful Eidolon in that it looks pretty bad on paper but just plays a lot better than it looks in this type of format. Remember back when everyone said Hopeful Eidolon was an unplayable trap?
I think it will be perfectly possible to pick this up 8th pick if blue is reasonably open. I understand why Eidolon was better than it initially looked. This seems, if anything, worse than it might otherwise be in this format because there are a zillion combat tricks.
I will be surprised if using this as removal ends up being anything than a desperation play. It's 2-for-1ing yourself unless you have a way to target without spending a card that you can afford after casting a 5 mana spell. That's a lot of conditions.
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I still think the jury's out on whether Nautilus is a great card, but I take issue with your assertion that Illusionary Armor would be better in this block than Nautilus. Nautilus is a strictly better version of Armor (except for the extra blue in the bestow cost). They both give +4/+4 and the illusion ability for 5 mana, but Nautilus can be played for 3 mana as a creature and it leaves behind a 4/4 when the enchanted creature dies.
On the flip side, don't fall into the trap of picking the card too highly because you put too high of a premium on your own skill to play the card correctly. Even if you play it correctly, you're still taking on the risk of having a dead card in hand (because not playing it is correct) and giving up a pick for a potentially more useful card (not that significant of a downside, but not irrelevant).
I tend to value consistency in my cards, and while I appreciate and respect the power of swingy effects, I don't think the upside of this card mitigates its downside enough to pick it over more consistently effective cards early in the draft. This card won't push me into blue, but if I know I'm blue, I'm willing to have it in my pool. This means that I'll often pick something else in picks 1-5, and unless this guy falls to the middle of the pack, I won't end up with it that often. Obvious if the second pick is a bunch of garbage and a Nautilus, I'm not going to arbitrarily pass it, but there's a good chance I end up valuing this guy less than others. And I'm of course willing to change my mind if evidence starts piling up in its favor, but I'm going to start lower on this card.
I guess I'm just saying I'm not willing to spend a top draft pick on a Manziel if I can get a Clowney instead, but if he falls late in the first round I'd happily snatch him up (a little NFL draft reference for those who care :)). It's about getting the right value for your pick.
It's your job win every game of Magic where you're not.
1. As a fragile 4/4 for 3. Not a very good card in a meta filled of bestow, combat tricks,etc. Personally I think its the "best" mode as it forces your opponent to use a card on it, but, generally is not great.
2. As a 4/4 Bestow card for your team. This is comparable to mischief and mayhem, which on the right deck could end as a finisher, but generally was not great. The advantage is that it leaves a 4/4 body (see #1). The bad side is....bestow mode gives your opponent almost a "free" kill spell, and in a format that lacks kill spells, this is not great.
3. As pseudo-removal. This is a "living the dream" mode. You need to have at least 6 mana, 5 for the bestow and 1 more minimum to be able to target your opponents creature. In a slower/sealed it can do work, but effectively there are better things that can be done for 6 mana...AND you need to spend one of your combat trick or kill spells anyway (unless you have activated abilities). WAY too situational
So overall...Wayyy too situational...maybe a sideboard card.
GW Aggro
RW Devotion
Testing with:
WUB Control
I'm not sure what I'm missing, care to elaborate?
I agree with the OP that the card can leave you very conflicted.
If you're on curve and you're playing an aggressive deck, I think the Nautilus fills an ok role as your three-drop. This is especially good when you have a solid 4 drop to follow it up.
I used him once to act as a removal (a very expensive one at that) for my opponents' Hero's Bane.
As a Constellation-enabler, I guess you can do better but 4 power on board is still pretty ok. He also only has one U in his casting cost which makes him relatively easy to cast.If he gets ignored, smashing with 4 power is always good.
If you're opponent has cards that RoadsarePoison mentioned (especially the tapping dog) then he's really bad. If not, I think he's ok at best and will always make your opponents think if they want to waste a combat trick / removal to get rid of him.
And Mode 3 (bestowing on opponent's creature) is more than likely going to require some more mana (and maybe a card) to target it, so practically that mode is more akin to a 7-drop or so.
You're absolutely right! Still, Armor leaves behind the original creature and Nautilus leaves behind a 4/4 (with a drawback). In many situations the Nautilus would still be preferable depending on the size of the enchanted creature.