In what formats did you win with big piles of removal?
I remember this happening a lot in Mirrodin, felt this way in original Ravnica (clearly we remember that format differently), and definitely did not think this way in ROE (I mean I could have a pile of removal, but what does Flameslash do against the real threats in that format? Mostly in that format I was concerned about making the biggest threat - and invalidating all their other cards. Actually reminds me of a slower THS).
I think you are seriously misrembering Ravnica. If you were drafting with competent drafters you should not have been able to assemble anywhere near a critical mass of remvoval. And that format had some of the most interesting pick decisions of any format ever. Removal, vs. quality creatures, vs. bouncelands, vs. signets, vs. card advantage. Tons of complex decisions and room for decision making.
I think that if done correctly, weak removal leads to a better limited environment. AVR's central problem was not weak removal but total lack of it, and Theros's biggest flaw is that certain aggressive draws can't be reasonably punished; in either case steps could have been taken to better balance out the weak removal, and Theros is still an enjoyable draft environment.
Too strong removal gives you M14. M14 was awful: it was both horrifically unbalanced and glacially slow. There were some fun archetypes, but all I can remember anymore is a format where Staff of the Mind Magus was a reasonable pickup.
I think that if done correctly, weak removal leads to a better limited environment. AVR's central problem was not weak removal but total lack of it, and Theros's biggest flaw is that certain aggressive draws can't be reasonably punished; in either case steps could have been taken to better balance out the weak removal, and Theros is still an enjoyable draft environment.
Too strong removal gives you M14. M14 was awful: it was both horrifically unbalanced and glacially slow. There were some fun archetypes, but all I can remember anymore is a format where Staff of the Mind Magus was a reasonable pickup.
Couldn't possibly disagree more - M14 was, as far as I'm concerned, easily the best Core Set format to date (though there are limits to how interesting a Core Set can be, even if it's the best of the lot), and one thing all the formats I consider to be the best (TPF, RGD, RoE, MMA) have in common is removal aplenty.
But I suppose it's a subjective thing, so I'm not telling you you're wrong, just that I don't share your opinion.
I think that if done correctly, weak removal leads to a better limited environment. AVR's central problem was not weak removal but total lack of it, and Theros's biggest flaw is that certain aggressive draws can't be reasonably punished; in either case steps could have been taken to better balance out the weak removal, and Theros is still an enjoyable draft environment.
Too strong removal gives you M14. M14 was awful: it was both horrifically unbalanced and glacially slow. There were some fun archetypes, but all I can remember anymore is a format where Staff of the Mind Magus was a reasonable pickup.
M14's problem was a lack of relevant creatures, not too strong removal (the removal wasn't particualrly strong). The problem was that there were so few relevant creatures that you could save all your removal for the few that mattered. Having 1 of the 5 colors be completely unplayable idnd't help anything.
Phyrre's comment about removal = time goes back to basic Magic theory: the player with the most unanswered threats wins. Phyrre's example is actually an interesting way to test the different ways a threat can be neutralized: with removal, or with another threat. The results of doing it with removal result in smaller, less complex boards while doing it with creatures results in either a more complex board state when creatures can block or a faster game when they don't block. I don't like complex board states where it's armies facing armies, nor do I like a game that is so short that my opening hand determines my fate, so I prefer a set with good removal.
When I evaluate how fun a set could be for limited, I look at the various mechanics and possible strategies. I look at the cost to power ratio of the average common creature as well as the average cost for removal. If the cost to power ratio is too low and there is no low cost removal to counterbalance that, such as in Zendikar or Gatecrash, I know I will be forced to play a fast, offensive deck every time, and I will consider it a terrible limited environment. If the cost for power is high I simply put more lands in my deck or try for an offensive deck if it's available*.
For me, a fun limited environment is one where I can try out various different strategies and feel like I had a viable chance with them. Memorable limited formats are ones where you not only select a strategy in drafting, but where you also have to execute it as well. The most memorable formats I remember were Lor/Mor/Mor (2 Mor packs made all decks supercharged with power, so all strategies were powerful and you had to judiciously use your removal), Time Spiral (so many versatile cards, so many ways to win), and Rise of the Eldrazi (the versatility of Eldrazi tokens made every strategy viable).
I do want to comment about Theros block. It's a weak limited environment because while there may be distinct strategies, not all of them are viable, and even the viable ones are not skill testing. The decision to Bestow is based on whether or not I have another creature (not skill testing). Monstrosity costs too much to be skill testing. Devotion comes up rarely and even when it does it is not skill testing (mostly because Wizards didn't print cards with heavy color commitments, such as a 2/3 for BBB - a sadly wasted opportunity).
*Very rarely have I considered the cost for power to be too high; the only cases I can think of were Coldsnap and perhaps Shards of Alara. In those cases, the game was a little too slow for me.
Heroic was the strongest deck in a vacuum in TTT, sure, but it didn't have to be the go-to strategy. BTT made it a 1-dimensional format.
The idea that removal=time=decisions is interesting, but I think games have plenty of potential to go much longer than the decisions do, when removal is too good, and those are absolutely my least favorite games of Magic. Ideally, the game should end right around the time interesting decisions stop happening, and really good removal tends to make the end come much later. Really bad removal tends to make the end come too soon, of course, so the only reasonable answer is to make perfectly balanced removal.
i dunno. i kind of like the feeling of out-attritioning my opponent, and then attacking with my evasive 2/1 ten times to end the game, or something. i kind of even enjoy losing to those situations, because it gives me ten turns to hope and pray that i topdeck a miracle to save me from that little evasive 2/1
[oh .. no .. wait. i think i'm thinking of trying to mill my opponent out with three-eyed merfolk after pillowing a fortress against them. similar feeling, or something, i bet.]
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Goblins have poor impulse control. Don't click this link!!
some of my favourite flavour text:
Wayward Soul "no home no heart no hope"
—Stronghold graffito
Raging Goblin He raged at the world, at his family, at his life. But mostly he just raged.
i kind of even enjoy losing to those situations, because it gives me ten turns to hope and pray that i topdeck a miracle to save me from that little evasive 2/1
sigh. i'm already missing them, lol!
but don't mind me. i LOVE to stall and durdle (and be stalled against and out-attritioned).
but Theros and Born of the Gods swung (as everyone seems to be in consensus in) wa~~y too far on the other end, that even aggro-lovers probably aren't enjoying things.
but yeah, if games never more were to get drawn out the ways i experienced them in M12 (and M14), but still were long enough that, like, interaction and interesting decisions were made, i'd be happy enough.
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Goblins have poor impulse control. Don't click this link!!
some of my favourite flavour text:
Wayward Soul "no home no heart no hope"
—Stronghold graffito
Raging Goblin He raged at the world, at his family, at his life. But mostly he just raged.
Bestow exists to prevent removal from becoming a 2 for 1. There was no reason to make removal that bad to make bestow good in limited. Heroic is the same, particularly since most ways to pump them are cantrip enchantments (which are only very rarely 2 for 1s), Bestow (which never is) and combat tricks (which you play in any format, even if you play a few more on average here).
This is a highly contentious point and probably depends on your playstyle but I hate formats with weak removal. Removal keeps the game in check. It means you don't lose to lucksack T1 dude T2 buff openers. It means you don't lose to a single 2/2 flyer for 4-5 mana. It means players have more outs. It makes the game more strategic, more focused on tempo. Formats with bad removal become more about seeing who's stick can get bigger first and durdling with it.
One of my unexpectedly favorite draft formats was m10. This was probably because I expected a core set to be awful and m10 was signficantly better than previous core sets. But it was also because Lightning Bolt and Doom Blade at common. Zendikar block was similarly filled with loads of cheap removal.
The hard removal in Theros is laughable. But at least there are some removal-like effects. Retraction Helix is amazing. The game just needs some ways to interact with T1 Favored Hoplite, T2 Ordeal. I'd be happier though if cards like Asphyxiate never ever saw print again.
I'm not the biggest fan of Theros limited (TTT or BTT), but it's probably getting a bad rap here. As I'm looking back, the thing a lot of my non-heroic winning decks had in common was ways to deal with the broken start (turn 2 Ordeal, or perfect curve out with stuff like Arena Athlete, Skullcleaver, aura + 2 drop, etc.). Either early removal like Lightning Strike or Pharika's Cure, bounce/Sudden Storm, or good early blockers like Returned Phalanx and Baleful Eidolon. People seem to pass these up for more powerful options, but I'm taking them higher and higher. Pharika's Cure over Lash, easily now. Pharika's Cure over a Pharika's Mender or even Nemesis of Mortals, sure, if my curve is too high. Retraction Helix over Siren of the Fanged Coast, yes, sometimes.
I think control is still easily a possibility in Theros, as I've won a number of 8-4s with controlling builds of < 15 creatures. Sometimes the nut draw just kills you, or sometimes you don't have your answers, but you mitigate the broken crap by drafting a curve just as aggressively as the heroic aggro players (it's telling that my most drafted card in Theros block is... Fleshmad Steed). You can still value out with Read the Bones and stuff like that, but those durdles have to be balanced by ways to stop RW from just blitzing you in 5 turns. If it means taking the faster, weaker, and less fun card, so be it.
I think people here have got it all wrong. The reason limited is so funky right now is that we are experiencing a swing in archetypes that hasn't been completed yet. R/W is soooo strong in BotT because of (relatively) powerful instant speed removal like Bolt, and Hammer, plus very strong white creatures, that too many players are encouraged to play that archetype. Then this deck type doesn't get what it needs at all in Theros. Meanwhile B/G is super strong, partly because of how underdrafted it is, and yet there is no indication as to why. It works because the B and G cards play off of each other well, but there is no indication in mechanics or gold cards that this would happen. The cards that encourage the color combo don't look like they have support, i.e. Nemesesis of Mortals and Graverobber spider don't have a lot of options to feed the graveyard. Still, B/G often works very well. B/W heroic, which was a major player in Theros has taken a backseat in support in BotG, despite seeming to have great cards like Akroan Skygaurd. Plus with the overplaying of R/W heroic, the only color combo that seems to work consistently is B/W, which is similar to B/G in not having as obvious a synergy in this limited environment. JiN cards clearly change things up again, but now archetypes are much clearer, and there's more of them before. It's very clearly pushing in two main directions, each with smaller threads: weenie, and voltron/monsters. You go wide, or you go tall. Each of those strategies has downsides and the removal deals with it. Power is always relative, so asking whether weak or strong removal is good for the environment is the wrong question. Usually some other imbalance will lead to problems with removal, and saying removal is too week or too strong is overlooking the underlying issue.
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I think you are seriously misrembering Ravnica. If you were drafting with competent drafters you should not have been able to assemble anywhere near a critical mass of remvoval. And that format had some of the most interesting pick decisions of any format ever. Removal, vs. quality creatures, vs. bouncelands, vs. signets, vs. card advantage. Tons of complex decisions and room for decision making.
Too strong removal gives you M14. M14 was awful: it was both horrifically unbalanced and glacially slow. There were some fun archetypes, but all I can remember anymore is a format where Staff of the Mind Magus was a reasonable pickup.
Cubetutor Link
Couldn't possibly disagree more - M14 was, as far as I'm concerned, easily the best Core Set format to date (though there are limits to how interesting a Core Set can be, even if it's the best of the lot), and one thing all the formats I consider to be the best (TPF, RGD, RoE, MMA) have in common is removal aplenty.
But I suppose it's a subjective thing, so I'm not telling you you're wrong, just that I don't share your opinion.
M14's problem was a lack of relevant creatures, not too strong removal (the removal wasn't particualrly strong). The problem was that there were so few relevant creatures that you could save all your removal for the few that mattered. Having 1 of the 5 colors be completely unplayable idnd't help anything.
When I evaluate how fun a set could be for limited, I look at the various mechanics and possible strategies. I look at the cost to power ratio of the average common creature as well as the average cost for removal. If the cost to power ratio is too low and there is no low cost removal to counterbalance that, such as in Zendikar or Gatecrash, I know I will be forced to play a fast, offensive deck every time, and I will consider it a terrible limited environment. If the cost for power is high I simply put more lands in my deck or try for an offensive deck if it's available*.
For me, a fun limited environment is one where I can try out various different strategies and feel like I had a viable chance with them. Memorable limited formats are ones where you not only select a strategy in drafting, but where you also have to execute it as well. The most memorable formats I remember were Lor/Mor/Mor (2 Mor packs made all decks supercharged with power, so all strategies were powerful and you had to judiciously use your removal), Time Spiral (so many versatile cards, so many ways to win), and Rise of the Eldrazi (the versatility of Eldrazi tokens made every strategy viable).
I do want to comment about Theros block. It's a weak limited environment because while there may be distinct strategies, not all of them are viable, and even the viable ones are not skill testing. The decision to Bestow is based on whether or not I have another creature (not skill testing). Monstrosity costs too much to be skill testing. Devotion comes up rarely and even when it does it is not skill testing (mostly because Wizards didn't print cards with heavy color commitments, such as a 2/3 for BBB - a sadly wasted opportunity).
*Very rarely have I considered the cost for power to be too high; the only cases I can think of were Coldsnap and perhaps Shards of Alara. In those cases, the game was a little too slow for me.
Black devotion was a potential thing in TTT, but the format was always about Heroic decks.
The idea that removal=time=decisions is interesting, but I think games have plenty of potential to go much longer than the decisions do, when removal is too good, and those are absolutely my least favorite games of Magic. Ideally, the game should end right around the time interesting decisions stop happening, and really good removal tends to make the end come much later. Really bad removal tends to make the end come too soon, of course, so the only reasonable answer is to make perfectly balanced removal.
Obviously.
[oh .. no .. wait. i think i'm thinking of trying to mill my opponent out with three-eyed merfolk after pillowing a fortress against them. similar feeling, or something, i bet.]
Goblins have poor impulse control. Don't click this link!!
some of my favourite flavour text:
Wayward Soul
"no home no heart no hope"
—Stronghold graffito
Raging Goblin
He raged at the world, at his family, at his life. But mostly he just raged.
Would you miss them if they were gone?
but don't mind me. i LOVE to stall and durdle (and be stalled against and out-attritioned).
but Theros and Born of the Gods swung (as everyone seems to be in consensus in) wa~~y too far on the other end, that even aggro-lovers probably aren't enjoying things.
but yeah, if games never more were to get drawn out the ways i experienced them in M12 (and M14), but still were long enough that, like, interaction and interesting decisions were made, i'd be happy enough.
Goblins have poor impulse control. Don't click this link!!
some of my favourite flavour text:
Wayward Soul
"no home no heart no hope"
—Stronghold graffito
Raging Goblin
He raged at the world, at his family, at his life. But mostly he just raged.
This is a highly contentious point and probably depends on your playstyle but I hate formats with weak removal. Removal keeps the game in check. It means you don't lose to lucksack T1 dude T2 buff openers. It means you don't lose to a single 2/2 flyer for 4-5 mana. It means players have more outs. It makes the game more strategic, more focused on tempo. Formats with bad removal become more about seeing who's stick can get bigger first and durdling with it.
One of my unexpectedly favorite draft formats was m10. This was probably because I expected a core set to be awful and m10 was signficantly better than previous core sets. But it was also because Lightning Bolt and Doom Blade at common. Zendikar block was similarly filled with loads of cheap removal.
The hard removal in Theros is laughable. But at least there are some removal-like effects. Retraction Helix is amazing. The game just needs some ways to interact with T1 Favored Hoplite, T2 Ordeal. I'd be happier though if cards like Asphyxiate never ever saw print again.
I think control is still easily a possibility in Theros, as I've won a number of 8-4s with controlling builds of < 15 creatures. Sometimes the nut draw just kills you, or sometimes you don't have your answers, but you mitigate the broken crap by drafting a curve just as aggressively as the heroic aggro players (it's telling that my most drafted card in Theros block is... Fleshmad Steed). You can still value out with Read the Bones and stuff like that, but those durdles have to be balanced by ways to stop RW from just blitzing you in 5 turns. If it means taking the faster, weaker, and less fun card, so be it.