yeah, i know it's a rare and so doesn't have a huge amount of relevance to Limited strategy, but to Limited experience, i often find myself choosing what colours to play in Sealed solely by how excited i get by the rares [ie i'm 80% Timmy] ... so i hope you all might indulge me in discussing this card?
i LOVE the flavour of Demons-that-hurt-their-controllers. i always kind of always loved cards that griefed -- even ones that could grief my own self! [hence my love of Whims of the Fates and Capricious Efreet and Goblin Test Pilot]
i'm wondering how dangerous that drawback really is?
what kind of deck does this kind of card want to be in? if i want to build around this card if i got it in my sealed pool, what kind of deck should i be trying to put together?
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
----------------------------
Goblins have poor impulse control. Don't click this link!!
some of my favourite flavour text:
Wayward Soul "no home no heart no hope"
—Stronghold graffito
Raging Goblin He raged at the world, at his family, at his life. But mostly he just raged.
I think the card is quite good actually. The drawback looks scary, but it's a 5/5 Flying for 3 mana! If you land it Turn 3 on the play, your opponent has has to kill it quickly -- and the good news is, when they kill it, the drawback also goes away so it's less risky than some other punisher mechanics like Hunted Dragon where your opponent is way ahead if they have an immediate answer.
What you absolutely can't afford is to hold this guy back on defense. Assume it has text "Must attack each turn if possible."
It's great as a finisher too because it's still a 5/5 Flying, and if it only needs to connect once or twice to win the game, then your opponent doesn't get many free draws.
Yeah, I'm on the side of "quite good" for limited at least. As mentioned above, once the creature goes away, so does the advantage to your opponent. Even more than that, the trigger is on your upkeep, so if they answer it with a sorcery like Asphyxiate, it's just a straight 1-for-1. I'm much less clear on how good it will be in constructed...the more consistent the overall quality of decks, the worse the drawback is.
Removal is so bad these days that this seems excellent in limited. It's iffy against blue decks that can bounce it for value and tempo, but against pretty mcuh everyone else this is going to be a house that kills them before they can do a whole lot with it.
The biggest problem is if it can be dealt with without killing it. The blue keep-it-tapped spell (can't recall that name) would be devastating, and the white "can't attack alone" bestow creature could be as well, depending on the rest of the board. Weight of the Underworld could be pretty annoying too, since the drawback doesn't look so hot on a 2/3 flyer. Siren Song Lyre will also be a problem for it.
Worst case scenario with this guy is not your opponent removing it. Worst case scenario is Wingsteed Rider into Hopeful Eidolon. Then you just stare at each other while your opponent gets a pain-free Phyrexian Arena. I don't think it's bad, per se, but the risks are certainly real.
No doubt it's high risk, high reward. It's going to steal some games, and outright lose some games you could have won when your opponent has just the right answer. I still think on average that it's worth picking highly and playing, because I think it's more likely to just be a big threat your opponent has to deal with somehow. You could always board it out too, if your opponent has a lot of those great answers and you feel you can win without the Demon.
The two relevant questions are:
1) How many answers will a typical deck in the format have to a 5/5 flier?
2) How much will an extra card per turn allow an opponent to race a 5/5 flier in the format? (since it's obviously terrible on defense)
The first one is basically not a consideration. It's completely plausible that most decks will run zero answers to a threat like that. However, the second question is probably a bigger deal. Most good decks in this block have access to fairly fast kills, and when you (for the most part) remove the issues of mana flood/screw and let people dig through their decks, those kills are obviously going to be coming up a lot more.
The problem with the card is that it's extremely all-in. Once you have it on the board, your options for winning are going to narrow further and further every turn. It could be good, but would anyone really want to play in a format where this sort of card is anything but a trap? That kind of format would be shallow, and inconsistent, and frustrating. Losing to this card seems like a prime opportunity to get really pissed off at the game.
Yeah, the can't attack alone thing was kind of an edge case. Something that can keep you tapped (the blue enchantment and siren song lyre right now) are really the things that will make this from "opponent must find answer" to "oh crap do i have a way to kill my own thing?".
Yeah, the can't attack alone thing was kind of an edge case. Something that can keep you tapped (the blue enchantment and siren song lyre right now) are really the things that will make this from "opponent must find answer" to "oh crap do i have a way to kill my own thing?".
Yeah...both of the cards you mention are only barely playable though, things I might expect to come out of the sideboard, but likely to be maindecked. Certainly not enough to move the needle on my evaluation of it unless we see some better similar effects in Journey.
If this card is in the draft, the stock of blue goes WAAAAY up. Blue just has so many great ways to gain advantage from this guy, it's not even funny. Wavecrash Triton can single-handedly win you the game if they drop the Master. Sudden Storm becomes an even more massive beating. All of the instant speed bounce will basically cantrip off this guy. Even Coastline Chimera + any bestow has a chance of keeping this thing at bay (only a chance, since it requires them having nothing to finish it off). Or any flyer + Triton Tactics = free Divination.
That said, Master of the Feast is still a beating if they're not playing blue (or don't draw the answers) and I think we can expect many rageouts on MTGO due to this card.
This card is easily first pickable in my book. 3 mana for a 5/5 flyers is certainly worth the drawback especially in this set where the answers to it are few and far between. Removal in this set is bad and/or expensive and alot of the cards mentioned as problems for this card simply aren't that good. Blue can play a trick game vs it (with Wavecrash Triton or the like) but that's eating into their resources to do (somewhat negating the demon's drawback) plus Blue doesn't have a ton of permanent answer for this card.
Also people who are saying "Wow Eternity Snare would blow this card out" are crazy. No one plays Eternity Snare and even if it was in their deck they'll be dead before they can cast it.
To me, this is a massive bomb, third to Dawnbringer Charioteers and Setessan Tactics as best cards in the set. Theros is a format where tempo can easily make up for card advantage, and it's hard to conceive of a tempo play better than a 5/5 flier on turn 3. Outside of rares and unplayables, the only real blowouts are the blue bounce spells, and even then it's not the end of the world, since he still only costs 3. I'm more than happy to trade a couple cards to deal my opponent 10 and get the best removal out of his hand.
aw shucks. now i'm realising i might not like this card much -- it's far more swingy [and far more good] than i had first realized... .
I really doubt you'll have to worry about that.
I'm not saying the card is bad. It probably isn't. But the Master can't really make a good deck better, because if you had a good deck then he would be too risky. He's the sort of card that shines in decks that have no other real plan, because all of a sudden HUGE TURN 3 BEATSTICK becomes your plan, and if someone answers it, well, you probably didn't have anything else going on anyway.
Just for some perspective, how much would you pay for this?
Dangerous Feast
Enchantment
When ~ ETB, target opponent puts a 5/5 Demon with flying into play under his or her control.
At the beginning of your opponent's upkeep, draw a card.
I don't see how that card is a good comparison since the 5/5 token is easily removed via bounce leaving you with the arena part for the rest of the game while bouncing the demon here really isn't that great and only delays things a turn.
Anyway, I definitely disagree that he's too risky for a good deck to run. I would gladly play him in an otherwise "good" deck because if I draw him then yay I get an easy win if they fail to deal with him. If I don't draw him than my other good cards can still carry the day. Your good cards aren't made worse by his presence, especially since he's such a big cheap threat that he draws what answers your opponent does have away from your other good cards.
Something important that nobody seems to have mentioned so far: it's an enchantment, which expands the pool of cards that can deal with him (and several of them at instant speed) greatly. Dying to removal isn't too bad, but dying to removal while allowing it to cantrip is. Casting Ray of Dissolution, Artisan's Sorrow, Unravel the AEther or Destructive Revelry on this gives a huge advantage. Related to this: I'm expecting more enchantment removal to be played maindeck after the addition of JiN, because it seems (so far) to contain more enchantments than THS and BoG. In particular the instant speed enchantment removals will be probably close to 100% maindeckable, while they are more borderline right now.
You really just need to embrace the rage. I keep a small colony of hamsters next to my computer and every time I lose a match to mana screw I throw one against the wall.
Let's look at the common and uncommon answers to deal with or keep this at bay indefinitely (parentheses indicates multiple cards):
WHITE:
Divine Verdict
Ornitharch
(some combo of flyers, bestow/aura, pump, small removal)
BLUE:
Eternity Snare
Dissolve
(Stymied Hopes + crazy luck)
(Wavecrash Triton + chaining auras, enabled by Master itself)
(some combo of flyers, bestow/aura, pump, small removal)
GREEN
Nessian Asp (monstrous'd, or pumped)
Shredding Winds
(3/x creature + Leafcrown Dryad)
(big creature or Sedge Scorpion + Time to Feed)
RED
Uhm...
(2x burn spells)
BLACK
Sip of Hemlock
(some combo of flyers, bestow/aura, pump, small removal)
(2+ non-Sip removal spells)
It seems like 1-card answers have to be very specific (and some non-maindeckable), so it'll often take a combination of cards to really deal with this permanently. And note that every single one of these answers costs more mana than the demon, most by a significant margin, which means if it comes down turn 3, you could have the answer in hand and still not be able to cast it fast enough. This means I'd still rather be blue facing this thing down, as the lockdown effects (Wavecrash Triton, Triton Tactics, Sudden Storm) and bounce are pretty prevalent in good blue decks and are very good against the general field. With other colors, you have to pray you draw your specific answer(s) immediately, because this thing clocks you so fast starting on turn 4. And if you're mono-red, have fun racing.
Let's look at the common and uncommon answers to deal with or keep this at bay indefinitely (parentheses indicates multiple cards):
WHITE:
Divine Verdict
Ornitharch
(some combo of flyers, bestow/aura, pump, small removal)
BLUE:
Eternity Snare
Dissolve
(Stymied Hopes + crazy luck)
(Wavecrash Triton + chaining auras, enabled by Master itself)
(some combo of flyers, bestow/aura, pump, small removal)
GREEN
Nessian Asp (monstrous'd, or pumped)
Shredding Winds
(3/x creature + Leafcrown Dryad)
(big creature or Sedge Scorpion + Time to Feed)
RED
Uhm...
(2x burn spells)
BLACK
Sip of Hemlock
(some combo of flyers, bestow/aura, pump, small removal)
(2+ non-Sip removal spells)
It seems like 1-card answers have to be very specific (and some non-maindeckable), so it'll often take a combination of cards to really deal with this permanently. And note that every single one of these answers costs more mana than the demon, most by a significant margin, which means if it comes down turn 3, you could have the answer in hand and still not be able to cast it fast enough. This means I'd still rather be blue facing this thing down, as the lockdown effects (Wavecrash Triton, Triton Tactics, Sudden Storm) and bounce are pretty prevalent in good blue decks and are very good against the general field. With other colors, you have to pray you draw your specific answer(s) immediately, because this thing clocks you so fast starting on turn 4. And if you're mono-red, have fun racing.
Let's look at the common and uncommon answers to deal with or keep this at bay indefinitely (parentheses indicates multiple cards):
Because keeping the card at bay indefinitely is what would be needed? Every single spell you use to delay this for even a turn is suddenly a cantrip. You could spend six cards dealing with the Master and still come out ahead on cards over a long game. You can't evaluate this based on how hard it is to answer permanently (not that it actually is hard).
Ah thanks for the two BNG cards (knew I was forgetting something), and silly me, I totally didn't notice the Enchantment part. This card has suddenly become a bit more risky, though you're usually only giving the opponent a 2-for-1, though the problem is that the opponent may be willing to trade 5 damage or a chump blocker for another extra card and hold off casting their Ray of Dissolution until then.
Drooling in the corner, I suppose. I think this guy is well worth the drawback. Heck, it's even difficult for Wingsteed Rider to deal with this thing efficiently. Not to mention, what's to stop you from bestowing onto your Master of the Feast?
I think it's highly unlikely that we'll see Pacifism, Claustrophobia, etc. variants. Those would be absolute blowouts. As mentioned, you're already dead by the time you could Eternity Snare this guy.
I completely agree with Tahn's point about the enchantment removal. At the pre-release in particular, I'll run 2 maybe even 3 maindeck. Of course, that's a wonky sealed format. But, even in draft, it seems more viable now with the high number of Journey enchantment creatures.
It seems ridiculously good in non-control, i.e B/R, aggressive B/W decks and probably creature-y/rampy B/G decks. Ideally you curve 2 drop into this with a trick/removal/follow-up in hand and it's just game by turn 5. For control decks, well, you wouldn't play Goblin Guide in a control deck, would you?
For what it's worth, I think this block is the perfect home for this card and that it would be way worse in other limited sets. How often in Theros limited have you seen your opponent pop down a turn three Wingsteed, looked at your full grip and thought "If he triggers this next turn my deck can't beat that"? This one starts off triggered, no tempo loss involved...
If you spend six cards dealing with it, cantrips or no, what do you think the other player is doing the whole time?
Drowning under a flood of card disadvantage, honestly.
Opponent plays this and I bounce it after drawing an extra card. Is he seriously going to play it again? I'm down nothing and his "bomb" is only getting worse with every turn. Even if all I can do is tap it for a turn, I still have plenty of cards to do other things and try to race. It's hard not to win when you have twice as many cards as your opponent.
yeah, i know it's a rare and so doesn't have a huge amount of relevance to Limited strategy, but to Limited experience, i often find myself choosing what colours to play in Sealed solely by how excited i get by the rares [ie i'm 80% Timmy] ... so i hope you all might indulge me in discussing this card?
i LOVE the flavour of Demons-that-hurt-their-controllers. i always kind of always loved cards that griefed -- even ones that could grief my own self! [hence my love of Whims of the Fates and Capricious Efreet and Goblin Test Pilot]
i'm wondering how dangerous that drawback really is?
what kind of deck does this kind of card want to be in? if i want to build around this card if i got it in my sealed pool, what kind of deck should i be trying to put together?
Goblins have poor impulse control. Don't click this link!!
some of my favourite flavour text:
Wayward Soul
"no home no heart no hope"
—Stronghold graffito
Raging Goblin
He raged at the world, at his family, at his life. But mostly he just raged.
What you absolutely can't afford is to hold this guy back on defense. Assume it has text "Must attack each turn if possible."
It's great as a finisher too because it's still a 5/5 Flying, and if it only needs to connect once or twice to win the game, then your opponent doesn't get many free draws.
Fine side board card, but I couldn't take it before a normal 7-8th pick.
1) How many answers will a typical deck in the format have to a 5/5 flier?
2) How much will an extra card per turn allow an opponent to race a 5/5 flier in the format? (since it's obviously terrible on defense)
The first one is basically not a consideration. It's completely plausible that most decks will run zero answers to a threat like that. However, the second question is probably a bigger deal. Most good decks in this block have access to fairly fast kills, and when you (for the most part) remove the issues of mana flood/screw and let people dig through their decks, those kills are obviously going to be coming up a lot more.
The problem with the card is that it's extremely all-in. Once you have it on the board, your options for winning are going to narrow further and further every turn. It could be good, but would anyone really want to play in a format where this sort of card is anything but a trap? That kind of format would be shallow, and inconsistent, and frustrating. Losing to this card seems like a prime opportunity to get really pissed off at the game.
Yeah...both of the cards you mention are only barely playable though, things I might expect to come out of the sideboard, but likely to be maindecked. Certainly not enough to move the needle on my evaluation of it unless we see some better similar effects in Journey.
That said, Master of the Feast is still a beating if they're not playing blue (or don't draw the answers) and I think we can expect many rageouts on MTGO due to this card.
Also people who are saying "Wow Eternity Snare would blow this card out" are crazy. No one plays Eternity Snare and even if it was in their deck they'll be dead before they can cast it.
Goblins have poor impulse control. Don't click this link!!
some of my favourite flavour text:
Wayward Soul
"no home no heart no hope"
—Stronghold graffito
Raging Goblin
He raged at the world, at his family, at his life. But mostly he just raged.
Cubetutor Link
I really doubt you'll have to worry about that.
I'm not saying the card is bad. It probably isn't. But the Master can't really make a good deck better, because if you had a good deck then he would be too risky. He's the sort of card that shines in decks that have no other real plan, because all of a sudden HUGE TURN 3 BEATSTICK becomes your plan, and if someone answers it, well, you probably didn't have anything else going on anyway.
Just for some perspective, how much would you pay for this?
Dangerous Feast
Enchantment
When ~ ETB, target opponent puts a 5/5 Demon with flying into play under his or her control.
At the beginning of your opponent's upkeep, draw a card.
Anyway, I definitely disagree that he's too risky for a good deck to run. I would gladly play him in an otherwise "good" deck because if I draw him then yay I get an easy win if they fail to deal with him. If I don't draw him than my other good cards can still carry the day. Your good cards aren't made worse by his presence, especially since he's such a big cheap threat that he draws what answers your opponent does have away from your other good cards.
WHITE:
Divine Verdict
Ornitharch
(some combo of flyers, bestow/aura, pump, small removal)
BLUE:
Eternity Snare
Dissolve
(Stymied Hopes + crazy luck)
(Wavecrash Triton + chaining auras, enabled by Master itself)
(some combo of flyers, bestow/aura, pump, small removal)
GREEN
Nessian Asp (monstrous'd, or pumped)
Shredding Winds
(3/x creature + Leafcrown Dryad)
(big creature or Sedge Scorpion + Time to Feed)
RED
Uhm...
(2x burn spells)
BLACK
Sip of Hemlock
(some combo of flyers, bestow/aura, pump, small removal)
(2+ non-Sip removal spells)
It seems like 1-card answers have to be very specific (and some non-maindeckable), so it'll often take a combination of cards to really deal with this permanently. And note that every single one of these answers costs more mana than the demon, most by a significant margin, which means if it comes down turn 3, you could have the answer in hand and still not be able to cast it fast enough. This means I'd still rather be blue facing this thing down, as the lockdown effects (Wavecrash Triton, Triton Tactics, Sudden Storm) and bounce are pretty prevalent in good blue decks and are very good against the general field. With other colors, you have to pray you draw your specific answer(s) immediately, because this thing clocks you so fast starting on turn 4. And if you're mono-red, have fun racing.
You forget:
White:
Ray of Dissolution
Revoke Existance
Excoriate
Green
Artisans Sorrow
Unravel the Eather
Fade into antiquity
Black
Asphyxiate
Flyer + necrobite
Flyer + baleful Eidolon
Because keeping the card at bay indefinitely is what would be needed? Every single spell you use to delay this for even a turn is suddenly a cantrip. You could spend six cards dealing with the Master and still come out ahead on cards over a long game. You can't evaluate this based on how hard it is to answer permanently (not that it actually is hard).
Ah thanks for the two BNG cards (knew I was forgetting something), and silly me, I totally didn't notice the Enchantment part. This card has suddenly become a bit more risky, though you're usually only giving the opponent a 2-for-1, though the problem is that the opponent may be willing to trade 5 damage or a chump blocker for another extra card and hold off casting their Ray of Dissolution until then.
I think it's highly unlikely that we'll see Pacifism, Claustrophobia, etc. variants. Those would be absolute blowouts. As mentioned, you're already dead by the time you could Eternity Snare this guy.
I completely agree with Tahn's point about the enchantment removal. At the pre-release in particular, I'll run 2 maybe even 3 maindeck. Of course, that's a wonky sealed format. But, even in draft, it seems more viable now with the high number of Journey enchantment creatures.
For what it's worth, I think this block is the perfect home for this card and that it would be way worse in other limited sets. How often in Theros limited have you seen your opponent pop down a turn three Wingsteed, looked at your full grip and thought "If he triggers this next turn my deck can't beat that"? This one starts off triggered, no tempo loss involved...
Drowning under a flood of card disadvantage, honestly.
Opponent plays this and I bounce it after drawing an extra card. Is he seriously going to play it again? I'm down nothing and his "bomb" is only getting worse with every turn. Even if all I can do is tap it for a turn, I still have plenty of cards to do other things and try to race. It's hard not to win when you have twice as many cards as your opponent.