My reasoning being that Athreos, god of dead would make a bad white god. We don't know his abilities yet, but his art looks more black than white to me. If this is accurate, then white is even better than it already is. Too bad that, so far, I prefer Keranos to Iroas. I also hope to like (!) Kruphix, but the U promo doesn't excite me in the least. Looks like a worse variation of the Theros kraken. I hope either Athreos or Pharika turn out good as their promos are decent.
It's not like white had gotten a spell that could multi-target for WX in BNG, was there?
And it's not like green got shafted in THS with the dual-targeting spells, where blue got a one-mana, toughness-pumping, untapping, freezing instant for U while green got a slightly-better than a do-nothing cantrip for the same mana, right?
It's not like Wizards ever seem to profoundly hate green while giving goodies to other colours?
It's not like white had gotten a spell that could multi-target for WX in BNG, was there?
And it's not like green got shafted in THS with the dual-targeting spells, where blue got a one-mana, toughness-pumping, untapping, freezing instant for U while green got a slightly-better than a do-nothing cantrip for the same mana, right?
It's not like Wizards ever seem to profoundly hate green while giving goodies to other colours?
I will say though that, as a guy who like green mana symbols, I can't be too hard on WotC. Nessian Asp is kinda of like everything I ever wanted in a card. Maybe the only thing better would be if Nessian Asp also had incidental life gain attached to it...
If you have a 4-power trample creature blocked by a 2-toughness creature, and you flash the Dictate in during declare blockers (or any time before damage, just if it's on the battlefield), your creature does 4 damage to the blocker and 4 to the opponent, not 2 to the blocker and 6 to the opponent. It works like that because trample applies when you assign the original 4 damage (so 2 to each), and it's only after that the damage is doubled by the replacement effect.
Ah, I see, so it's subtly different to double-strike. Of course, I imagine it also stacks with double strike which is, well, yikes.
As someone who just serendipitously bought rage reflection last week, I welcome our new instant-speed damage-doubling overlord. (I just wish I had bought more than one…) EOT 5, damage doubling, untap, land, rage reflection, attack for a gazillion.
(Of course, opponent chump block, untaps, kills me, but hey...)
As someone who just serendipitously bought rage reflection last week, I welcome our new instant-speed damage-doubling overlord. (I just wish I had bought more than one…) EOT 5, damage doubling, untap, land, rage reflection, attack for a gazillion.
(Of course, opponent chump block, untaps, kills me, but hey...)
What does everyone think about the uncommon bestow cycle spoiled tonight? (Sightless Brawler, Crystalline Nautilus, Gnarled Scarhide [already known], Mogis's Warhound, and Spirespine, to make it easier to find them in the spoiler)
The black one seems good, but obviously limited to aggro, and we'll have to see how B/x aggro looks in the format.
The red one looks like another brutal card for RW aggro. Sigh.
White's a little tough to evaluate. It's a great rate, but making your voltron need a Red Zone Buddy in order to keep attacking could be risky. How much will that matter in practice? I'm really not sure.
Spirespine (green) mostly seems like a moderate downgrade on Nyborn Wolf, which isn't terribly promising, but one thing the preview article glossed over is that you can use it as bad removal in a pinch, though only on untapped creatures.
I disagree pretty strongly with Marshall Sutcliffe's analysis of the blue one in his preview article. While acknowledging its drawbacks, he seemed pretty positive about it, and in some formats I'd agree. But combat tricks and cheap auras, i.e. things that kill the Nautilus at a mana advantage are so completely ubiquitous in this block that I think this creature is really bad. It could be a lava axe if you've got something your opponent can't block, and sometimes people will get mised by it, but it's incredibly fragile played early and often a major liability when bestowed. Again, you could use it as bad removal in conjunction with a combat trick (not technically card disadvantage since you do end up with a Nautilus at the end), but that's getting so expensive that I can't imagine it being good very often.
I'm curious to see what the common Bestow creatures will look like. I hope we're back to getting abilities on the common cycle, because I thought the vanillas in BNG were pretty bland, and it seemed like a weird decision to dial down the complexity in the second set.
What does everyone think about the uncommon bestow cycle spoiled tonight?
Strong, basically. The Red one's probably the best because the Bestow is so cheap. The Green one also seems pretty strong simply because you can cast it on something and immediately swing. Granted it's not so great if the opponent has a blocker or removal, but the upside if they don't is ridiculous. The Blue one is very similar to Green but even riskier because it's so easy to deal with (although putting it on a random 1/1 isn't bad because soaking up two targetting spells is quite good value). The Black one is obviously serviceable, but comparatively fair.
For me, the most interesting card by far is the White one. Like the other four I definitely want to draft it, but that drawback is potentially a big deal. Unfortunately I suspect what it comes down to is that this is just going to be horribly swingy. On some boards it has no drawback. On others - obviously - you won't want to cast it at all. As such it's sort of a "win more" card - albeit a very strong one - and I'm inclined not to pick it highly.
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Honestly, I was pretty shocked that Marshall didn't at all mention the possibilities in bestowing creatures from that cycle onto opponents' creatures. Not necessarily the primary option for a lot of those, but it adds a very interesting modality to them.
I'm curious to see what the common Bestow creatures will look like. I hope we're back to getting abilities on the common cycle, because I thought the vanillas in BNG were pretty bland, and it seemed like a weird decision to dial down the complexity in the second set.
I'm curious if we even get them. I've read several times that the goal with the second and third set is to go 'wide' (multiple creatures on the battlefield) instead of 'tall' (voltron up one guy).
The green one is removal, which leaves behind a 4/1 blocker, if you happen to have a deathtouch creature (bestow on opponents creature, attack with deathtoucher).
The blue one is removal, which leaves behind a 4/4 creature, if you have a trick/onboard targetting effect.
I think they are very, very strong, especially the red and blue ones.
I think people are over-evaluating how often the trick of playing the bestow on the opponent's creatures will come up. You need a specific board state and plenty of mana to make it work. For example, the black one needs that your opponent only has one relevant blocker and that you don't mind improving their creature if it back fires. The blue one requires tons of mana. Green, you better hope he doesn't have a pump or kill spell to get rid of your attacker. The argument that it isn't card disadvantage is weak for most of them since you'd be left with a weak body (except the blue one) with a draw-back.
As such, the upside of being playable on your opponent is more of a rare bonus than a weigh in how I'd evaluate each one. (The blue one might be the only one that truly is improved by it, but that's because it is also the one with the greatest potential downside…)
The BRG ones are the most interesting, as playing them on an heroic guy has little downsides if you're going to attack anyway. The others are risky. I guess they are still bestow, which mean resilient, thus will make your deck, but I would put other bestows from previous set in my deck before them.
Wait, if you bestow something on opponent's creature and then that creature dies does opponent get the bestow creature that falls off or do you?
You do. The permanent is always under your control, it's just attached to an opponent's creature.
That totally did not occur to me. That does make using the blue one on opponent reasonably tempting. It actually seems particularly dicey on your own creature in this format because there are so many instant tricks running around.
I don't know that anyone's actually overestimating the "Bestow your opponent's guy" aspect of this cycle. I agree it should be relatively rare for most of them, but having an extra mode is definitely worth including in your evaluation of the card. Except for possibly the black one, scenarios where it's worthwhile to bestow on your opponent's creature basically don't come up in typical game states, but even with good decks, weird draws leading to atypical game states come up plenty. The fact that you can use most of these as awkward removal definitely makes them a little better than they otherwise would be.
Having thought about it, the blue one might not be quite as awful as my first impression had it, though I still don't like it.
It seems like a miserable turn 3 play (it will get answered that early on, and quite possibly at a tempo loss for its controller), and late game you'll very rarely want to bestow it on anything good (Marshall Sutcliffe's suggestion of putting it on an evasive creature your opponent can't stop seems especially bad unless it's immediately lethal, as you're giving them a bunch of outs to something that was otherwise a big problem for them). On the other hand, as a way to turn an irrelevant 2-drop back into a threat on turn 5-6, it doesn't seem terrible. You're likely to gain some tempo and some virtual card advantage in that scenario, anyway.
That raises the question of whether there are likely to be irrelevant 2-drops in the environment. I mean, Omenspeaker sure, but otherwise if the format is fast, 2-drops won't be irrelevant (and will often be Voltron targets that you wouldn't want to give people outs to). If the format slows down a lot, then mana curves are going to start to rise, which means 2-drops are going to be a lot less omnipresent than they currently are.
That raises the question of whether there are likely to be irrelevant 2-drops in the environment. I mean, Omenspeaker sure, but otherwise if the format is fast, 2-drops won't be irrelevant (and will often be Voltron targets that you wouldn't want to give people outs to). If the format slows down a lot, then mana curves are going to start to rise, which means 2-drops are going to be a lot less omnipresent than they currently are.
Even in the format as it is, Nessian Asp, Nemesis of Mortals, and Keepsake Gorgon come down fairly often and make 2-drops fairly irrelevant.
In the current format, I frequently find myself with early drops sitting around doing nothing later in the game. Multiple aggressive creatures get played, but then a large blocker forces them to stop attacking, except for the best of the bunch which becomes the designated voltron. Or an early blocker has to stop blocking because an aura came down and left it without good blocks, so it's just waiting around until it's time to chump. If those situations continue to be common, they'll pretty much be the ideal scenarios for the Nautilus.
Dolphan raises a good point, i.e., in what percentage of those board states would a vanilla 4/4 (one that you can never use an aura or combat trick on, no less) also be largely irrelevant? I'm not sure; my gut says "a minority, but a significant one", though that's a guess.
Like I said, I still think the blue drawback bestow is bad. I just think it might not be as thoroughly awful as I did at first glance.
The black sweeper may be my new favorite card in terms of flavor.
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My Decks: EDH: Sygg, River Cutthroat , Road to Scion
Grimgrin, Corpseborn Modern: Polytokes IRL: Progenitus Polymorph , Goblins
That really isn't 'wasting a trick', and your 4/4 is pretty likely to die before you do much with it as well.
So they wasted two tricks to kill an Omenspeaker and one card. Sounds like you came out ahead, even assuming they can target your creatures twice, which is certainly not going to be the case every time. People who played illusions in the recent core sets know that they stick around far more frequently than you'd expect and plenty of the things that kill them would have killed them even without the drawback. Heck, sometimes they make removal worse, as anything tacked onto it doesn't resolve. Rage of Purphoros, for example, doesn't scry if used on it.
I think people are forgetting that some of the tricks can only target creatures you control, too. No one can use Warriors' Lesson to kill your illusion guy and target their own guy at the same time.
That really isn't 'wasting a trick', and your 4/4 is pretty likely to die before you do much with it as well.
So they wasted two tricks to kill an Omenspeaker and one card. Sounds like you came out ahead, even assuming they can target your creatures twice, which is certainly not going to be the case every time.
'Used' two tricks. Trading for one card each is precisely what tricks normally do. Yes, you hope to get something better than Omenspeaker, but you're barely behind there. And sure, sometimes they won't have the targeting effects (but they'll typically have at least one, and the base body, which is non-evasive and can't be suited up in any way, is hardly all that scary late game). But sometimes you won't have irrelevant creatures sitting around either, or they'll get value off a double-target trick or a heroic trigger or whatever. The downside is pretty dire, so it needs a corresponding upside to be good. It's not there.
The drawback really isn't that big as long as you're not playing against RW and UW heroic and the upside is far better than you're making it out to be. Illusionary Armor was a fine card and this is slightly better when played on your own guy and gives the added bonus of you being able to really get them with something like Hypnotist or Shipwreck Singer. There are only like three cards in GUB that people actually play that really do anything more than 1 for 1 against it. It's a perfectly playable card and I guarantee you'll lose games to it more often than you'll say "lol at that - Triton Tactics for free, Deepwater Hypnotist for free, gg."
This is a typical glass half full / half empty discussion.
The bestowed illusion makes what must be an irrelevant 1/3 into a threat. You also make them play a card to deal with it. You're ahead! They wasted a card on a creature they would otherwise ignore! And you still have a (fragile) 4/4 body they will have to deal with again. Genius!
OTOH…
You spent 5 mana to turn a solid creature into a fragile beast that dies to every trick or targeting ability. Had you bestowed and similarly costed card, say observant alseid, you'd have a decent attacker and a great blocker that would have necessitated a good removal spell to destroy. You wasted ton of mana and helped your opponent get rid of your guy. Possibly for free. And gods help you if you bestowed it on a good creature! What a dork you make.
There is no 'right'. Sometimes you'll get value. Sometimes they will have that temper aura out and and dead card for you. It's a swingy card.
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Goblins have poor impulse control. Don't click this link!!
some of my favourite flavour text:
Wayward Soul
"no home no heart no hope"
—Stronghold graffito
Raging Goblin
He raged at the world, at his family, at his life. But mostly he just raged.
W: Iroas
U: Kruphix
B: Athreos
R: Keranos
G: Pharika
My reasoning being that Athreos, god of dead would make a bad white god. We don't know his abilities yet, but his art looks more black than white to me. If this is accurate, then white is even better than it already is. Too bad that, so far, I prefer Keranos to Iroas. I also hope to like (!) Kruphix, but the U promo doesn't excite me in the least. Looks like a worse variation of the Theros kraken. I hope either Athreos or Pharika turn out good as their promos are decent.
It's not like white had gotten a spell that could multi-target for WX in BNG, was there?
And it's not like green got shafted in THS with the dual-targeting spells, where blue got a one-mana, toughness-pumping, untapping, freezing instant for U while green got a slightly-better than a do-nothing cantrip for the same mana, right?
It's not like Wizards ever seem to profoundly hate green while giving goodies to other colours?
I will say though that, as a guy who like green mana symbols, I can't be too hard on WotC. Nessian Asp is kinda of like everything I ever wanted in a card. Maybe the only thing better would be if Nessian Asp also had incidental life gain attached to it...
Ah, I see, so it's subtly different to double-strike. Of course, I imagine it also stacks with double strike which is, well, yikes.
(Of course, opponent chump block, untaps, kills me, but hey...)
Messenger's Speed. Do it!
The red one looks like another brutal card for RW aggro. Sigh.
White's a little tough to evaluate. It's a great rate, but making your voltron need a Red Zone Buddy in order to keep attacking could be risky. How much will that matter in practice? I'm really not sure.
Spirespine (green) mostly seems like a moderate downgrade on Nyborn Wolf, which isn't terribly promising, but one thing the preview article glossed over is that you can use it as bad removal in a pinch, though only on untapped creatures.
I disagree pretty strongly with Marshall Sutcliffe's analysis of the blue one in his preview article. While acknowledging its drawbacks, he seemed pretty positive about it, and in some formats I'd agree. But combat tricks and cheap auras, i.e. things that kill the Nautilus at a mana advantage are so completely ubiquitous in this block that I think this creature is really bad. It could be a lava axe if you've got something your opponent can't block, and sometimes people will get mised by it, but it's incredibly fragile played early and often a major liability when bestowed. Again, you could use it as bad removal in conjunction with a combat trick (not technically card disadvantage since you do end up with a Nautilus at the end), but that's getting so expensive that I can't imagine it being good very often.
I'm curious to see what the common Bestow creatures will look like. I hope we're back to getting abilities on the common cycle, because I thought the vanillas in BNG were pretty bland, and it seemed like a weird decision to dial down the complexity in the second set.
Strong, basically. The Red one's probably the best because the Bestow is so cheap. The Green one also seems pretty strong simply because you can cast it on something and immediately swing. Granted it's not so great if the opponent has a blocker or removal, but the upside if they don't is ridiculous. The Blue one is very similar to Green but even riskier because it's so easy to deal with (although putting it on a random 1/1 isn't bad because soaking up two targetting spells is quite good value). The Black one is obviously serviceable, but comparatively fair.
For me, the most interesting card by far is the White one. Like the other four I definitely want to draft it, but that drawback is potentially a big deal. Unfortunately I suspect what it comes down to is that this is just going to be horribly swingy. On some boards it has no drawback. On others - obviously - you won't want to cast it at all. As such it's sort of a "win more" card - albeit a very strong one - and I'm inclined not to pick it highly.
(I'm on on this site much anymore. If you want to get in touch it's probably best to email me: dom@heffalumps.org)
Forum Awards: Best Writer 2005, Best Limited Strategist 2005-2012
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For reference: Sightless Brawler, Crystalline Nautilus, Gnarled Scarhide, Mogis's Warhound, and Spirespine
I'm curious if we even get them. I've read several times that the goal with the second and third set is to go 'wide' (multiple creatures on the battlefield) instead of 'tall' (voltron up one guy).
The green one is removal, which leaves behind a 4/1 blocker, if you happen to have a deathtouch creature (bestow on opponents creature, attack with deathtoucher).
The blue one is removal, which leaves behind a 4/4 creature, if you have a trick/onboard targetting effect.
I think they are very, very strong, especially the red and blue ones.
As such, the upside of being playable on your opponent is more of a rare bonus than a weigh in how I'd evaluate each one. (The blue one might be the only one that truly is improved by it, but that's because it is also the one with the greatest potential downside…)
The BRG ones are the most interesting, as playing them on an heroic guy has little downsides if you're going to attack anyway. The others are risky. I guess they are still bestow, which mean resilient, thus will make your deck, but I would put other bestows from previous set in my deck before them.
That totally did not occur to me. That does make using the blue one on opponent reasonably tempting. It actually seems particularly dicey on your own creature in this format because there are so many instant tricks running around.
Having thought about it, the blue one might not be quite as awful as my first impression had it, though I still don't like it.
It seems like a miserable turn 3 play (it will get answered that early on, and quite possibly at a tempo loss for its controller), and late game you'll very rarely want to bestow it on anything good (Marshall Sutcliffe's suggestion of putting it on an evasive creature your opponent can't stop seems especially bad unless it's immediately lethal, as you're giving them a bunch of outs to something that was otherwise a big problem for them). On the other hand, as a way to turn an irrelevant 2-drop back into a threat on turn 5-6, it doesn't seem terrible. You're likely to gain some tempo and some virtual card advantage in that scenario, anyway.
Even in the format as it is, Nessian Asp, Nemesis of Mortals, and Keepsake Gorgon come down fairly often and make 2-drops fairly irrelevant.
Dolphan raises a good point, i.e., in what percentage of those board states would a vanilla 4/4 (one that you can never use an aura or combat trick on, no less) also be largely irrelevant? I'm not sure; my gut says "a minority, but a significant one", though that's a guess.
Like I said, I still think the blue drawback bestow is bad. I just think it might not be as thoroughly awful as I did at first glance.
My Decks:
EDH: Sygg, River Cutthroat , Road to Scion
Grimgrin, Corpseborn
Modern: Polytokes
IRL: Progenitus Polymorph , Goblins
Just a friendly reminder that I will drive this car off a bridge
So they wasted two tricks to kill an Omenspeaker and one card. Sounds like you came out ahead, even assuming they can target your creatures twice, which is certainly not going to be the case every time. People who played illusions in the recent core sets know that they stick around far more frequently than you'd expect and plenty of the things that kill them would have killed them even without the drawback. Heck, sometimes they make removal worse, as anything tacked onto it doesn't resolve. Rage of Purphoros, for example, doesn't scry if used on it.
I think people are forgetting that some of the tricks can only target creatures you control, too. No one can use Warriors' Lesson to kill your illusion guy and target their own guy at the same time.
The drawback really isn't that big as long as you're not playing against RW and UW heroic and the upside is far better than you're making it out to be. Illusionary Armor was a fine card and this is slightly better when played on your own guy and gives the added bonus of you being able to really get them with something like Hypnotist or Shipwreck Singer. There are only like three cards in GUB that people actually play that really do anything more than 1 for 1 against it. It's a perfectly playable card and I guarantee you'll lose games to it more often than you'll say "lol at that - Triton Tactics for free, Deepwater Hypnotist for free, gg."
The bestowed illusion makes what must be an irrelevant 1/3 into a threat. You also make them play a card to deal with it. You're ahead! They wasted a card on a creature they would otherwise ignore! And you still have a (fragile) 4/4 body they will have to deal with again. Genius!
OTOH…
You spent 5 mana to turn a solid creature into a fragile beast that dies to every trick or targeting ability. Had you bestowed and similarly costed card, say observant alseid, you'd have a decent attacker and a great blocker that would have necessitated a good removal spell to destroy. You wasted ton of mana and helped your opponent get rid of your guy. Possibly for free. And gods help you if you bestowed it on a good creature! What a dork you make.
There is no 'right'. Sometimes you'll get value. Sometimes they will have that temper aura out and and dead card for you. It's a swingy card.