That would be true if this were a game of perfect information. But it's not, so it isn't.
Oracle of Bones is a good example of this. Which choice is better depends on what is in your hand, which your opponent generally doesn't know. So you will get the better option sometimes.
Oracle of Bones is probably the best of the Tribute cards BECAUSE the choice involves hidden information. Thunder Brute, by contrast, doesn't really give the opponent as much room for error. The ramifications of his choice are much more clear-cut. Nessian Demolok is probably middle-ground; your opponent doesn't know what you'll destroy if he doesn't pay the tribute, but he can probably make an educated guess.
That would be true if this were a game of perfect information. But it's not, so it isn't.
Oracle of Bones is a good example of this. Which choice is better depends on what is in your hand, which your opponent generally doesn't know. So you will get the better option sometimes.
Yes, okay, you're semantically correct. I'm pretty sure it's a distinction without a difference, though. Oracle of Bones' tribute ability being unpredictable doesn't make him any more difficult to play against. It's still usually going to be statistically obvious which choice is better. Its unpredictability just makes it higher variance, not higher quality.
Wit's End is the PERFECT answer to your opponent's Monomania however.
Just hold on to your Wit's End when they Monomania, so you can Wit's End them on your next turn!!!
I think this is fairly reminiscent of the "Jace Battles" we have seen in past standards.. My guess is we will soon witness the great Monomania-Wit's End battles.
That would be true if this were a game of perfect information. But it's not, so it isn't.
Oracle of Bones is a good example of this. Which choice is better depends on what is in your hand, which your opponent generally doesn't know. So you will get the better option sometimes.
The times when you actually get the better option are going to be severely outnumbered by the times you get an overcosted 3/1 and don't have a spell to cast or you get a 5/3 that trades off for any of the numerous 3/x's in the set, and you'll be kicking yourself.
We've had these punisher cards before; they were bad then and I bet they'll be bad again.
This is a good point. Helix might not be as good as Voyage's End in a vacuum, but it stones an otherwise fine removal spell AND provides tempo. Also, bounce becomes a lot better now that we're getting one fewer pack of Lightning Strikes and are replacing them with Fall of the Hammer.
Helix is actually pretty useful vs several spells. In addition to asphyxiate, it counters the green "must block" spell, as well as Shipwreck Singer.
Helix is actually pretty useful vs several spells. In addition to asphyxiate, it counters the green "must block" spell, as well as Shipwreck Singer.
Let me get this straight: it's good because it makes you unable to block when your opponent was tryign to lure so that he could alpha strike you?
It's good because if you're behind and being ripped by the siren, you avoid the effect once?
I'm still not understanding the interest the card has. I still haven't read anyone explain away why I don't like it: that you need an untapped, capable of tapping guy for it to do anything at all. You only get tempo by not using a creature as an attacker, so you either untempo'ed yourself or were already losing. Will you keep a guy back just to play this if you're ahead?
Basically, helix is card that, if your losing, you'll be losing a slightly bit less for a turn. I suppose voltrons will dominate enough that it will still be playable nonetheless.
Let me get this straight: it's good because it makes you unable to block when your opponent was tryign to lure so that he could alpha strike you?
It's good because if you're behind and being ripped by the siren, you avoid the effect once?
I'm still not understanding the interest the card has. I still haven't read anyone explain away why I don't like it: that you need an untapped, capable of tapping guy for it to do anything at all. You only get tempo by not using a creature as an attacker, so you either untempo'ed yourself or were already losing. Will you keep a guy back just to play this if you're ahead?
Basically, helix is card that, if your losing, you'll be losing a slightly bit less for a turn. I suppose voltrons will dominate enough that it will still be playable nonetheless.
triggers heroic for a low cost, is common, and has a somewhat relevant ability.
Let me get this straight: it's good because it makes you unable to block when your opponent was tryign to lure so that he could alpha strike you?
It's good because if you're behind and being ripped by the siren, you avoid the effect once?
I'm still not understanding the interest the card has. I still haven't read anyone explain away why I don't like it: that you need an untapped, capable of tapping guy for it to do anything at all. You only get tempo by not using a creature as an attacker, so you either untempo'ed yourself or were already losing. Will you keep a guy back just to play this if you're ahead?
Basically, helix is card that, if your losing, you'll be losing a slightly bit less for a turn. I suppose voltrons will dominate enough that it will still be playable nonetheless.
Sorry, I wasn't clear. I didn't mean the Lure creature (Noble Quarry). I meant Culling Mark but didn't look up the name. it 100% counters Culling Mark.
Basically, helix is card that, if your losing, you'll be losing a slightly bit less for a turn.
Is this the bounce spell equivalent of "dies to removal"?
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Basically, helix is card that, if your losing, you'll be losing a slightly bit less for a turn. I suppose voltrons will dominate enough that it will still be playable nonetheless.
Now I'm not going to say that it is better than voyage's end because it is not. But I think it'll be much better than you are giving it credit for.
In triple theros, I found that the majority of the time, I didn't swing with every single creature I had on board. Usually there's at least one creature that it wouldn't be profitable for me to attack with, either because of blockers my opponent might have, or blockers I might need on my opponents turn. And that creature is often a very good creature to use at the end of my opponents turn to target with helix. I have a feeling that the majority of the time you won't have to jump through too many hoops in order to use this card.
Now, unfortunately it does lack scry, which is a very big downside, but it somewhat makes up for it by being a heroic and inspired enabler (and the rare but nonetheless important counter-asphyxiate). And the 1 cmc less is quite nice as well.
I think the best tribute card is Ornitharch. Both modes are fantastic in Limited.
I think so too. Even then, your opponent chooses if he is better equipped to handle a single 5/5 flyer (removal, monstrous asp) or a 3/3 and 2 1/1 flyers (spider, other mid-size flyers on the board).
Now I'm not going to say that it is better than voyage's end because it is not.
I'll go even further and say that there will be a number of times where it is much better than Voyage's End. Wavecrash Triton is a card that combos with this powerfully, for example.
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I'd think there are more situations where VE is better though...
Certainly. I do think VE is the better card, but to me it looks like this: VE will more often be a little better than Helix, but a decent number of times Helix will be much better than VE. It's also worth noting that Helix will occasionally be a dead draw, but VE probably wouldn't do much for you then, either.
My biggest problem with it is that it's not named Banishing Knack. I hate functional reprints.
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Leaning towards not liking it. It's slow removal that can be played around and doesn't solve the Robot Lion problem.
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Yeah, it's pretty good. Don't think of it as removal, but as a 1-drop that stalls very well. It'd be pretty bad if it didn't cost 1 mana, but it does, and so it requires an aggressive deck to have a dedicated answer for your 1-drop, which slows them down a bunch and makes all your later stuff better.
Wit's End is the PERFECT answer to your opponent's Monomania however.
Just hold on to your Wit's End when they Monomania, so you can Wit's End them on your next turn!!!
I think this is fairly reminiscent of the "Jace Battles" we have seen in past standards.. My guess is we will soon witness the great Monomania-Wit's End battles.
Yeah, it's pretty good. Don't think of it as removal, but as a 1-drop that stalls very well. It'd be pretty bad if it didn't cost 1 mana, but it does, and so it requires an aggressive deck to have a dedicated answer for your 1-drop, which slows them down a bunch and makes all your later stuff better.
Fair points. Perhaps I like it less than most because I like the format's variouspings more than most.
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I'm not sure that even those are cards that trade productively with Vortex Elemental. In the first couple turns, if you aren't curving out, then the control deck that likes to run that sort of thing is happy. Maybe Spark Jolt is a better answer than most things, but if you're trying to break a board stall, that's still one less card you'll have to do it with, once they have an Omenspeaker or whatever else on the field.
Wit's End is the PERFECT answer to your opponent's Monomania however.
Just hold on to your Wit's End when they Monomania, so you can Wit's End them on your next turn!!!
I think this is fairly reminiscent of the "Jace Battles" we have seen in past standards.. My guess is we will soon witness the great Monomania-Wit's End battles.
Vortex elemental is kind of like a blue sedge scorpion with a monstrous ability.
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Vortex elemental is kind of like a blue sedge scorpion with a monstrous ability.
To me, Vortex Elemental is kind of like the blue Void Stalker, but at uncommon! I think it looks awesome. If I'm playing a blue control deck, I will take as many as I can. I could be completely wrong though. The ability to stop super fast heroic starts (1 drop --> ordeal) makes it great, and it's still relevant in the late game as a mana sink to get rid of their best creature.
In a UW heroic deck, I would still probably play it for the lure effect, but I could definitely see cutting it in that deck.
Fair points. Perhaps I like it less than most because I like the format's variouspings more than most.
A counterpoint is that pings aren't as good in this format as they have been in others. You don't often see people maindecking them without a good reason.
A counterpoint is that pings aren't as good in this format as they have been in others. You don't often see people maindecking them without a good reason.
Oh, I don't think I've discovered some secret tech. I get high mileage out of them because no one plays around them. I do think Kiss is a bit underrated.
For the record, I think KISS is highly overrated.
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Wave Crash Triton and Retraction Helix seems like an awesome combo, so I understand why people are jazzed about it, but honestly, Helix seems closer to a fringe playable, archetype enabler than to 'best blue common in the set.'
Anyone whose played with convoke can tell you, tapping a creature as a cost is not free. You don't just have extra dudes lying around always, and this card is pretty weak during the early turns against an aggressive start. you probably aren't going to be able to stop your opponents heroic horse on turn 4 with this card.
Also, I really don't know how happy I am with an unsummon that actually 'dies to removal.' Getting your creature murdered in response to this can actually be back breaking.
This is a card I'd be happy to play if I had a plethora of tough heroic guys. Even the inspire dudes don't inspire me to play this. Unlike heroic, most inspired creatures want to be tapped repeatedly (because tapping is much easier to do than target), so you are hardly getting close to a cards worth of value tapping your inspired creature. sure, the common thieving magpie does draw you a card when it untaps, but it's also a 2 power flier, so the preferred method of tapping it is swinging for 2.
Again, this card isn't unplayable, but it's archetype dependent, and should never be picked above the cards required to turn it on. It's also quite unsynergistic with any of the aggressive heroic creatures.
Wit's End is the PERFECT answer to your opponent's Monomania however.
Just hold on to your Wit's End when they Monomania, so you can Wit's End them on your next turn!!!
I think this is fairly reminiscent of the "Jace Battles" we have seen in past standards.. My guess is we will soon witness the great Monomania-Wit's End battles.
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Oracle of Bones is probably the best of the Tribute cards BECAUSE the choice involves hidden information. Thunder Brute, by contrast, doesn't really give the opponent as much room for error. The ramifications of his choice are much more clear-cut. Nessian Demolok is probably middle-ground; your opponent doesn't know what you'll destroy if he doesn't pay the tribute, but he can probably make an educated guess.
Yes, okay, you're semantically correct. I'm pretty sure it's a distinction without a difference, though. Oracle of Bones' tribute ability being unpredictable doesn't make him any more difficult to play against. It's still usually going to be statistically obvious which choice is better. Its unpredictability just makes it higher variance, not higher quality.
We've had these punisher cards before; they were bad then and I bet they'll be bad again.
Helix is actually pretty useful vs several spells. In addition to asphyxiate, it counters the green "must block" spell, as well as Shipwreck Singer.
Let me get this straight: it's good because it makes you unable to block when your opponent was tryign to lure so that he could alpha strike you?
It's good because if you're behind and being ripped by the siren, you avoid the effect once?
I'm still not understanding the interest the card has. I still haven't read anyone explain away why I don't like it: that you need an untapped, capable of tapping guy for it to do anything at all. You only get tempo by not using a creature as an attacker, so you either untempo'ed yourself or were already losing. Will you keep a guy back just to play this if you're ahead?
Basically, helix is card that, if your losing, you'll be losing a slightly bit less for a turn. I suppose voltrons will dominate enough that it will still be playable nonetheless.
triggers heroic for a low cost, is common, and has a somewhat relevant ability.
Sorry, I wasn't clear. I didn't mean the Lure creature (Noble Quarry). I meant Culling Mark but didn't look up the name. it 100% counters Culling Mark.
Shipwreck Singer was a stretch though, I'm sorry.
Is this the bounce spell equivalent of "dies to removal"?
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Now I'm not going to say that it is better than voyage's end because it is not. But I think it'll be much better than you are giving it credit for.
In triple theros, I found that the majority of the time, I didn't swing with every single creature I had on board. Usually there's at least one creature that it wouldn't be profitable for me to attack with, either because of blockers my opponent might have, or blockers I might need on my opponents turn. And that creature is often a very good creature to use at the end of my opponents turn to target with helix. I have a feeling that the majority of the time you won't have to jump through too many hoops in order to use this card.
Now, unfortunately it does lack scry, which is a very big downside, but it somewhat makes up for it by being a heroic and inspired enabler (and the rare but nonetheless important counter-asphyxiate). And the 1 cmc less is quite nice as well.
I think so too. Even then, your opponent chooses if he is better equipped to handle a single 5/5 flyer (removal, monstrous asp) or a 3/3 and 2 1/1 flyers (spider, other mid-size flyers on the board).
I'll go even further and say that there will be a number of times where it is much better than Voyage's End. Wavecrash Triton is a card that combos with this powerfully, for example.
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Certainly. I do think VE is the better card, but to me it looks like this: VE will more often be a little better than Helix, but a decent number of times Helix will be much better than VE. It's also worth noting that Helix will occasionally be a dead draw, but VE probably wouldn't do much for you then, either.
My biggest problem with it is that it's not named Banishing Knack. I hate functional reprints.
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Leaning towards not liking it. It's slow removal that can be played around and doesn't solve the Robot Lion problem.
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Fair points. Perhaps I like it less than most because I like the format's various pings more than most.
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To me, Vortex Elemental is kind of like the blue Void Stalker, but at uncommon! I think it looks awesome. If I'm playing a blue control deck, I will take as many as I can. I could be completely wrong though. The ability to stop super fast heroic starts (1 drop --> ordeal) makes it great, and it's still relevant in the late game as a mana sink to get rid of their best creature.
In a UW heroic deck, I would still probably play it for the lure effect, but I could definitely see cutting it in that deck.
A counterpoint is that pings aren't as good in this format as they have been in others. You don't often see people maindecking them without a good reason.
Oh, I don't think I've discovered some secret tech. I get high mileage out of them because no one plays around them. I do think Kiss is a bit underrated.
For the record, I think KISS is highly overrated.
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Anyone whose played with convoke can tell you, tapping a creature as a cost is not free. You don't just have extra dudes lying around always, and this card is pretty weak during the early turns against an aggressive start. you probably aren't going to be able to stop your opponents heroic horse on turn 4 with this card.
Also, I really don't know how happy I am with an unsummon that actually 'dies to removal.' Getting your creature murdered in response to this can actually be back breaking.
This is a card I'd be happy to play if I had a plethora of tough heroic guys. Even the inspire dudes don't inspire me to play this. Unlike heroic, most inspired creatures want to be tapped repeatedly (because tapping is much easier to do than target), so you are hardly getting close to a cards worth of value tapping your inspired creature. sure, the common thieving magpie does draw you a card when it untaps, but it's also a 2 power flier, so the preferred method of tapping it is swinging for 2.
Again, this card isn't unplayable, but it's archetype dependent, and should never be picked above the cards required to turn it on. It's also quite unsynergistic with any of the aggressive heroic creatures.
Heroic Synergy U
Instant
Target creature.