Why? I assume you don't mean in combination with those cards themselves (playing it on either turn 6 isn't a hugely interesting prospect); I realise it could help stall while you look to draw them, but that seems pretty marginal.
The card is marginal in almost every situation, with the main highlight being using it with Burnished Hart to go to town and rid your deck of lands in no time.
In this pool, given the Gods Willing, Dauntless Onslaught, Scourgemark, Battlewise Valor, Erebos's Emissary, Observant Alseid, Baleful Eidolon, Cavern Lampad, and, to a lesser extent, the Pharika's Cure and double Archon, there's no need for it at all.
This pool can easily have an important creature die and just come back with more insane power to make up for it. Easily the type of pool that disappoints you if you don't X-0 with it.
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Alright, I'll admit that I like Gift of Immortality more than I should. I just see a lot of opportunity for amusing maneuvers with it in this deck. On Baleful Eidolon it shuts down the ground on turn 3; on Cavalry Pegasus it shuts down everything without trample on turn 3; on Gray Merchant it shuts down the ground with style.
But, all told, I'll grant that being amusing does not make a card optimal for a given deck. I like it, but this is not the hill I will choose to die upon.
Anyway, now that I've jabbered on about how easy this is to build, I guess I should actually put down what I'd actually do with it so everyone can tell me if I'm full of crap.
^ 95% of this was completely obvious, but the parts I'm slightly unsure about are:
Nothing happens until turn three. As long as you stick a Wingsteed, that's perfectly fine, but is it worth throwing Setessan Battle Priest in there as a backup plan?
Include Pharika's Cure? It's a great card, but it's also an early-game card, and we really want WW on the field, not BB.
Cavern Lampad? I feel like we'd rather play a 3-mana card than play this as a creature, and we'd rather play a 5-mana card than Bestow this, so I left it out.
There are so many double-mana symbols on these cards that I think 2 Traveler's Amulets is the correct choice. Others may disagree.
There's a lot going on at 5 mana. I think the ability to consistently land fliers justifies including both Celestial Archons and both Sentry of the Underworlds in addition to both Gray Merchants. Others may prefer to drop a Sentry.
Alright, I'll admit that I like Gift of Immortality more than I should. I just see a lot of opportunity for amusing maneuvers with it in this deck. On Baleful Eidolon it shuts down the ground on turn 3; on Cavalry Pegasus it shuts down everything without trample on turn 3; on Gray Merchant it shuts down the ground with style.
But, all told, I'll grant that being amusing does not make a card optimal for a given deck. I like it, but this is not the hill I will choose to die upon.
Anyway, now that I've jabbered on about how easy this is to build, I guess I should actually put down what I'd actually do with it so everyone can tell me if I'm full of crap.
^ 95% of this was completely obvious, but the parts I'm slightly unsure about are:
Nothing happens until turn three. As long as you stick a Wingsteed, that's perfectly fine, but is it worth throwing Setessan Battle Priest in there as a backup plan?
Include Pharika's Cure? It's a great card, but it's also an early-game card, and we really want WW on the field, not BB.
Cavern Lampad? I feel like we'd rather play a 3-mana card than play this as a creature, and we'd rather play a 5-mana card than Bestow this, so I left it out.
There are so many double-mana symbols on these cards that I think 2 Traveler's Amulets is the correct choice. Others may disagree.
There's a lot going on at 5 mana. I think the ability to consistently land fliers justifies including both Celestial Archons and both Sentry of the Underworlds in addition to both Gray Merchants. Others may prefer to drop a Sentry.
I don't think the amulets make any sense in this build. I would just play 17 lands and include the pharika's cure and the sip somehow. Stessan battle priest is not remotely playable in sealed.
I'd want another Read the Bones at least before I considered 18 land. Wingsteed Rider is a good card in the abstract but it isn't exactly a rock star when you're flooded.
In a pool this powerful, how many would consider running 18 lands just to reduce losses due to mulligans?
That's my thinking -- this deck is full of board-relevant cards, so long as you can actually play them. That's also (part of) why I believe that at least one Traveler's Amulet is an auto-include. (The other part is that one Traveler's Amulet is always an auto-include.)
The other reasons to run 18 lands are that (A) nothing important happens in this deck until you get a 3-mana creature on the field to start buffing, (B) you want to hit 5 mana as soon as possible in every single game, (C) there are plenty of mana sinks with Bestow creatures at 6-7 and Elspeth at 6, and (D) with combat tricks and instant-speed removal going up to 4 mana, there is value to be had in being able to play and still have mana up to react on the opponent's turn.
In short, I believe that this deck is definitely an 18-land deck.
The biggest problem with W/B in Theros is that all the good cards have double mana costs, so you're pretty much never going to be able to cast everything on time. That's less important in sealed, but I definitely think it's a good reason to run 18 lands. I'm not sure I would run more than 1 amulet though, the tempo hit is pretty big.
Uh I wish I had a pool as good at the past Premier THS. Thumbs up on the 3-0! Do you actually have the deck list? I wouldn't run Gift of Immortality as proposed above -- a Wingsteed Rider comes back without counters ;( so its even worse than Indestructibility aura (which didn't see much play either)
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The tempo hit from an amulet is tiny (pretty much the same as a come-into-play-tapped land) and well worth it to maximize the chance of hitting double white and double black by turn 5/6.
^ Basically this. Yes, it's possible that it will show up when you really need a basic right now, but in a deck with this many WW and BB costs there's no guarantee that the basic land you hit is going to help. You're much more likely to lose to the wrong mana than to a very small tempo hit.
If given the choice, I'd rather have the right mana on turn 6 than useable mana on turn 5 in this deck.
I wouldn't run Gift of Immortality as proposed above -- a Wingsteed Rider comes back without counters ;( so its even worse than Indestructibility aura (which didn't see much play either)
Yeah, which is why you don't see it in the decklist I put up above. Although I would dispute it's worse than Indestructibility, because it only costs 3 and it interacts with ETB effects.
Yeah, which is why you don't see it in the decklist I put up above. Although I would dispute it's worse than Indestructibility, because it only costs 3 and it interacts with ETB effects.
Not to mention that I'd almost certainly rather have someone use a removal spell/trade away a solid guy just to knock a counter off my Rider than have him just not be able to use them in the first place. It's more likely that someone plays wrong and you 2 for 1 them with it.
The biggest problem with W/B in Theros is that all the good cards have double mana costs, so you're pretty much never going to be able to cast everything on time. That's less important in sealed, but I definitely think it's a good reason to run 18 lands. I'm not sure I would run more than 1 amulet though, the tempo hit is pretty big.
I disagree about the tempo hit, but I wouldn't even consider running 18 lands AND two amulets. That's just plain too much land. Yes, you may avoid a getting hung up on mana requirements and slightly increase your odds of getting to 5 mana, but you're also increasing your odds of dead draws and floods by just as much. You can somewhat effectively use floods, but 20 mana sources in a deck like this is still too many. I'd probably do 18 and one Amulet.
Alright, I'll admit that I like Gift of Immortality more than I should. I just see a lot of opportunity for amusing maneuvers with it in this deck. On Baleful Eidolon it shuts down the ground on turn 3; on Cavalry Pegasus it shuts down everything without trample on turn 3; on Gray Merchant it shuts down the ground with style.
But, all told, I'll grant that being amusing does not make a card optimal for a given deck. I like it, but this is not the hill I will choose to die upon.
Anyway, now that I've jabbered on about how easy this is to build, I guess I should actually put down what I'd actually do with it so everyone can tell me if I'm full of crap.
^ 95% of this was completely obvious, but the parts I'm slightly unsure about are:
Nothing happens until turn three. As long as you stick a Wingsteed, that's perfectly fine, but is it worth throwing Setessan Battle Priest in there as a backup plan?
Include Pharika's Cure? It's a great card, but it's also an early-game card, and we really want WW on the field, not BB.
Cavern Lampad? I feel like we'd rather play a 3-mana card than play this as a creature, and we'd rather play a 5-mana card than Bestow this, so I left it out.
There are so many double-mana symbols on these cards that I think 2 Traveler's Amulets is the correct choice. Others may disagree.
There's a lot going on at 5 mana. I think the ability to consistently land fliers justifies including both Celestial Archons and both Sentry of the Underworlds in addition to both Gray Merchants. Others may prefer to drop a Sentry.
I recently got some advice from a Pro Tour player about Theros sealed. He said "play your curve". Meaning if you have a Bronze Sable, or a Battle Priest, you play them because you always play whatever curve you have in your pool, in your colors. He said that if you do that, you'll win a free game or two in a long tournament, but more importantly if you don't do that, you WILL lose a few games in a tournament due to bad draws.
You've got six 5 drop creatures. In a 5-9 round event, that will become a big problem.
Take out some of the 5 drops, add some curve, and let your pool be awesome. Don't beat yourself, in other words.
EDIT:
ALSO, Cavern Lampad is a MUST include. In Sealed, the Lampad straight up wins games. Intimidate is hugely valuable in Sealed.
I recently got some advice from a Pro Tour player about Theros sealed. He said "play your curve". Meaning if you have a Bronze Sable, or a Battle Priest, you play them because you always play whatever curve you have in your pool, in your colors. He said that if you do that, you'll win a free game or two in a long tournament, but more importantly if you don't do that, you WILL lose a few games in a tournament due to bad draws.
You've got six 5 drop creatures. In a 5-9 round event, that will become a big problem.
Take out some of the 5 drops, add some curve, and let your pool be awesome. Don't beat yourself, in other words.
EDIT:
ALSO, Cavern Lampad is a MUST include. In Sealed, the Lampad straight up wins games. Intimidate is hugely valuable in Sealed.
No one has ever won a free game with a stessan battle priest in recorded history. Bronze sable is actually fine. It's basically equivalent to a bear in the format that happens to be able to block cavern lampad which is good. Battle priest is just stone unplayable. Your friend can talk all he wants - no one is getting free wins with 1/3s.
This is kind of true but misleading. A curve with two turn two plays is not ideal, but it's not necessarily an overwhelming problem in sealed, and it certainly doesn't mean you should definitely include cards like the two you mention, which will win you almost no free games ever. They do give you a better chance of surviving against an out-and-out aggro deck, but those decks are rare in sealed; better to sideboard than maindeck against them. The crucial thing is having plenty of stuff at three, because not doing anything before turn 4 is much more of a problem than nothing before turn 3.
It's also just untrue that six five-drops is inherently a big problem in a sealed deck. That's probably about the max you want at 5+ (and you definitely want 18 lands here), but it's not overwhelmingly top-heavy.
I agree. This is why you sideboard - if you play against a deck where a 1/3 would be good, you can always side it in. G1 in sealed a 1/3 is going to be irrelevant against almost everyone, though.
Although that shouldn't put people off playing Omenspeaker, which I love (probably a little too much).
Well, with Omenspeaker the 1/3 body is just a pleasant bonus. The important thing is that you get the Scry 2 (which is relevant in early and late game) up front and unconditionally, whereas Battle Priest's only ability is a Heroic trigger that requires another spell that you should be using on your Wingsteeds anyway.
The real question of playing the curve vs. playing the power is evaluating the scenarios in which the cards in question are dead. The whole reason Triton Shorethief is unplayable is that it's basically never more useful than a too-expensive card sitting in your hand, and if you've got a bunch of mana then it's less useful.
For this pool, that's why I think Priest and Sable go at the top of the sideboard. There are matchups where the mere fact of having a 2-drop creature makes a huge difference, and in those matchups I'd side out a Sentry or two in a heartbeat and cut the curve down. But in the average matchup, I think the deck is better off just plodding along to its creatures that seriously affect the game, rather than slapping down something on turn 2 that stops mattering on turn 4.
Re: Cavern Lampad, it's not that I don't appreciate Intimidate; it's just that everything in this deck already has flying and is cheaper. I just don't think the more expensive evasion is that relevant here.
EDIT: Oh, and for the record, Traveler's Amulet counts as a land when adding up creatures and spells. That's why I refer to an 18-land deck when the decklist has 16 lands and 2 Amulets.
Definitely one of the craziest pools I've seen, I mean.. Elspeth with really good white to back it up, solid black with a ton of removal, 2!! on color gold cards and an on color temple to top it all off? I want this pool at the GP so I can sleepwalk my way into day 2, sheesh.
No one has ever won a free game with a stessan battle priest in recorded history. Bronze sable is actually fine. It's basically equivalent to a bear in the format that happens to be able to block cavern lampad which is good. Battle priest is just stone unplayable. Your friend can talk all he wants - no one is getting free wins with 1/3s.
Wingsteed Riders are AMAZING on offense and kinda crappy on defense. You need to capitalize a bit on this rather than be a wannabe ub control deck. To those bronze sable doubters, bronze sable gets in 4 damage early easy, it gets ignored. Then cavern lampad makes him unblockable and its gg real quick. Definitely auto include. I'm less sold on the setessan battle priest and my last card to make the deck was battlewise valor. I want the scry effect to smooth out draws in this powerful deck. If my deck was less powerful I would have opted to add the ordeal of erebos and try to get lucky nabbing their bomb out of hand, but I don't want to open myself up to 2-for-1s if possible. Also, I think the traveler's amulets are do nothings that only reverse the power of our scrys so I do not want them.
Pool:
1 Battlewise Valor
1 Cavalry Pegasus
2 Celestial Archon
1 Dauntless Onslaught
1 Divine Verdict
1 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
1 Gift of Immortality
1 Glare of Heresy
1 Gods Willing
1 Leonin Snarecaster
1 Observant Alseid
1 Ray of Dissolution
1 Scholar of Athreos
1 Setessan Battle Priest
3 Wingsteed Rider
Blue:
3 Annul
1 Benthic Giant
1 Coastline Chimera
2 Dissolve
1 Mnemonic Wall
1 Nimbus Naiad
1 Omenspeaker
2 Sealock Monster
2 Triton Shorethief
1 Vaporkin
1 Baleful Eidolon
1 Cavern Lampad
1 Dark Betrayal
2 Gray Merchant of Asphodel
1 Lash of the Whip
1 Ordeal of Erebos
1 Erebos's Emissary
1 Read the Bones
1 Pharika's Cure
1 Scourgemark
1 Sip of Hemlock
2 Viper's Kiss
Red:
2 Boulderfall
2 Dragon Mantle
1 Lightning Strike
2 Messenger's Speed
1 Peak Eruption
1 Priest of Iroas
1 Rage of Purphoros
1 Satyr Rambler
1 Spearpoint Oread
1 Stoneshock Giant
2 Two-Headed Cerberus
2 Wild Celebrants
1 Centaur Battlemaster
1 Defend the Hearth
1 Nemesis of Mortals
1 Nessian Asp
1 Pheres-Band Centaurs
1 Satyr Hedonist
1 Staunch-Hearted Warrior
1 Voyaging Satyr
1 Vulpine Goliath
Gold:
1 Anax and Cymede
1 Kragma Warcaller
1 Pharika's Mender
2 Sentry of the Underworld
1 Shipwreck Singer
Artifacts:
1 Bronze Sable
2 Traveler's Amulet
Land:
1 Temple of Silence
1 Unknown Shores
Yo, this pool builds itself.
EDIT: Sorry, I forgot to mention Baleful Eidolon.
The card is marginal in almost every situation, with the main highlight being using it with Burnished Hart to go to town and rid your deck of lands in no time.
In this pool, given the Gods Willing, Dauntless Onslaught, Scourgemark, Battlewise Valor, Erebos's Emissary, Observant Alseid, Baleful Eidolon, Cavern Lampad, and, to a lesser extent, the Pharika's Cure and double Archon, there's no need for it at all.
This pool can easily have an important creature die and just come back with more insane power to make up for it. Easily the type of pool that disappoints you if you don't X-0 with it.
:dance:Fact or Fiction of the [Limited] Clan:dance:
But, all told, I'll grant that being amusing does not make a card optimal for a given deck. I like it, but this is not the hill I will choose to die upon.
Anyway, now that I've jabbered on about how easy this is to build, I guess I should actually put down what I'd actually do with it so everyone can tell me if I'm full of crap.
1 Baleful Eidolon
1 Cavalry Pegasus
1 Observant Alseid
1 Scholar of Athreos
3 Wingsteed Rider
1 Erebos's Emissary
2 Celestial Archon
2 Gray Merchant of Asphodel
2 Sentry of the Underworld
Other Spells (8)
1 Gods Willing
1 Battlewise Valor
1 Scourgemark
1 Dauntless Onslaught
1 Ray of Dissolution
1 Read the Bones
1 Divine Verdict
1 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
9 Plains
6 Swamps
1 Temple of Silence
2 Traveler's Amulet
1 Unknown Shores
1 Dark Betrayal
2 Viper's Kiss
1 Glare of Heresy
1 Leonin Snarecaster
1 Ordeal of Erebos
1 Pharika's Cure
1 Setessan Battle Priest
1 Gift of Immortality
1 Cavern Lampad
1 Lash of the Whip
1 Sip of Hemlock
1: s
2: ccss
3: cccccssss
4: csss
5: cccccc
6: Elspeth
^ 95% of this was completely obvious, but the parts I'm slightly unsure about are:
I don't think the amulets make any sense in this build. I would just play 17 lands and include the pharika's cure and the sip somehow. Stessan battle priest is not remotely playable in sealed.
*DCI Rules Advisor*
That's my thinking -- this deck is full of board-relevant cards, so long as you can actually play them. That's also (part of) why I believe that at least one Traveler's Amulet is an auto-include. (The other part is that one Traveler's Amulet is always an auto-include.)
The other reasons to run 18 lands are that (A) nothing important happens in this deck until you get a 3-mana creature on the field to start buffing, (B) you want to hit 5 mana as soon as possible in every single game, (C) there are plenty of mana sinks with Bestow creatures at 6-7 and Elspeth at 6, and (D) with combat tricks and instant-speed removal going up to 4 mana, there is value to be had in being able to play and still have mana up to react on the opponent's turn.
In short, I believe that this deck is definitely an 18-land deck.
^ Basically this. Yes, it's possible that it will show up when you really need a basic right now, but in a deck with this many WW and BB costs there's no guarantee that the basic land you hit is going to help. You're much more likely to lose to the wrong mana than to a very small tempo hit.
If given the choice, I'd rather have the right mana on turn 6 than useable mana on turn 5 in this deck.
Yeah, which is why you don't see it in the decklist I put up above. Although I would dispute it's worse than Indestructibility, because it only costs 3 and it interacts with ETB effects.
Not to mention that I'd almost certainly rather have someone use a removal spell/trade away a solid guy just to knock a counter off my Rider than have him just not be able to use them in the first place. It's more likely that someone plays wrong and you 2 for 1 them with it.
I disagree about the tempo hit, but I wouldn't even consider running 18 lands AND two amulets. That's just plain too much land. Yes, you may avoid a getting hung up on mana requirements and slightly increase your odds of getting to 5 mana, but you're also increasing your odds of dead draws and floods by just as much. You can somewhat effectively use floods, but 20 mana sources in a deck like this is still too many. I'd probably do 18 and one Amulet.
I recently got some advice from a Pro Tour player about Theros sealed. He said "play your curve". Meaning if you have a Bronze Sable, or a Battle Priest, you play them because you always play whatever curve you have in your pool, in your colors. He said that if you do that, you'll win a free game or two in a long tournament, but more importantly if you don't do that, you WILL lose a few games in a tournament due to bad draws.
You've got six 5 drop creatures. In a 5-9 round event, that will become a big problem.
Take out some of the 5 drops, add some curve, and let your pool be awesome. Don't beat yourself, in other words.
EDIT:
ALSO, Cavern Lampad is a MUST include. In Sealed, the Lampad straight up wins games. Intimidate is hugely valuable in Sealed.
No one has ever won a free game with a stessan battle priest in recorded history. Bronze sable is actually fine. It's basically equivalent to a bear in the format that happens to be able to block cavern lampad which is good. Battle priest is just stone unplayable. Your friend can talk all he wants - no one is getting free wins with 1/3s.
*DCI Rules Advisor*
I agree. This is why you sideboard - if you play against a deck where a 1/3 would be good, you can always side it in. G1 in sealed a 1/3 is going to be irrelevant against almost everyone, though.
*DCI Rules Advisor*
Well, with Omenspeaker the 1/3 body is just a pleasant bonus. The important thing is that you get the Scry 2 (which is relevant in early and late game) up front and unconditionally, whereas Battle Priest's only ability is a Heroic trigger that requires another spell that you should be using on your Wingsteeds anyway.
The real question of playing the curve vs. playing the power is evaluating the scenarios in which the cards in question are dead. The whole reason Triton Shorethief is unplayable is that it's basically never more useful than a too-expensive card sitting in your hand, and if you've got a bunch of mana then it's less useful.
For this pool, that's why I think Priest and Sable go at the top of the sideboard. There are matchups where the mere fact of having a 2-drop creature makes a huge difference, and in those matchups I'd side out a Sentry or two in a heartbeat and cut the curve down. But in the average matchup, I think the deck is better off just plodding along to its creatures that seriously affect the game, rather than slapping down something on turn 2 that stops mattering on turn 4.
Re: Cavern Lampad, it's not that I don't appreciate Intimidate; it's just that everything in this deck already has flying and is cheaper. I just don't think the more expensive evasion is that relevant here.
EDIT: Oh, and for the record, Traveler's Amulet counts as a land when adding up creatures and spells. That's why I refer to an 18-land deck when the decklist has 16 lands and 2 Amulets.
Yes... someone has... ask ThrivingMagpie.