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My Decks: EDH: Sygg, River Cutthroat , Road to Scion
Grimgrin, Corpseborn Modern: Polytokes IRL: Progenitus Polymorph , Goblins
I mean, I can kind of understand Thassa, since she's less useful on average in a Draft deck than in a Sealed deck (there's less crap you want to scry away), but surely Purphoros should be ranked higher than his own Emissary? Unless you're playing R/W nuts Heroic, he at least hits your opponent in the face every time you play a creature, aka the thing you are already doing a lot of because that's how you win in Theros Limited.
I've had him... he wasn't much more than a slow Lava Axe for me. Unless you have devotion, he's not much of a topdeck, and as an early drop he's no good in aggro.
Favored Hoplite in the lowest tier of playable cards? Ooooookay, then.
From the comments: "In some decks [he's very good], sure. In other decks, it's unplayable. I played with and against it and, in my experience, it was more frequently the latter than the former. Then again, cards like these are difficult to rank because they're highly deck dependent. First-pick first-pack, I prefer to take more solid all-round cards over it---cards that are good in every deck.
In hindsight, Favored Hoplite should be ranked a bit higher. But I'm not going to first pick it over Lightning Strike or anything like that."
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My helpy helpdesk of helpfulness.
My Decks: EDH: Sygg, River Cutthroat , Road to Scion
Grimgrin, Corpseborn Modern: Polytokes IRL: Progenitus Polymorph , Goblins
Favored Hoplite is the kind of card that's really good in a certain archetype, and that is Heroic. T1 this into T2 Ordeal is good. If you're playing something else without anyway to trigger it, though, you're really just playing a white Triton Shorethief.
So I kind of understand why it's ranked that low. It needs a very specific set-up to be very good.
Overall this is good reference. Some of the Gods though I am surprised to find a bit low, Heliod in particular - guy just continues to pop out tokens every time. Slow, but good in grind-y games.
The two cards are very similar, but despite being slightly more expensive I'd rate Hythonia as stronger.
Technically he's not rating strength so much as "early-pick value without any other factors," but I get what you mean.
I presume the reasoning is that killing a specific creature on one turn is better than killing all creatures a turn later. And I can't really argue with that reasoning, although I'd still probably pick Hythonia because I like her. (It's a moot point, of course, since you're basically never going to have to choose.)
Overall this is good reference. Some of the Gods though I am surprised to find a bit low, Heliod in particular - guy just continues to pop out tokens every time. Slow, but good in grind-y games.
Yeah, but in a vacuum it's iffy. Consider that white in Theros as a whole tends to be faster and based on smaller creatures (that grow) with Heroic and combat tricks. If you're paired with another color that lets you build slow and grindy, then great, but if all you know is that you're in white (these are hypothetical first picks, after all), then there's a decent chance Heliod won't really help the deck you end up drafting.
I think he's probably just wrong about Hythonia's power level. But still, considering the article intentionally simplifies very complicated subject matter and is mostly pretty accurate I'm very impressed with it!
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Hoo boy, I couldn't disagree with ya more. On the play it blanks Wingsteeds and more, screws up combat math and wins any but the most unbeatable of races.
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My helpy helpdesk of helpfulness.
My Decks: EDH: Sygg, River Cutthroat , Road to Scion
Grimgrin, Corpseborn Modern: Polytokes IRL: Progenitus Polymorph , Goblins
While I disagree with a few card placements, that's inevitable. It's like when Rolling Stone releases a Top 50 Bands of All Time list. Good luck finding even a single person who agrees with the entire list other than the author.
The one I disagree most strongly with though is Nighthowler as a "nearly as good as top uncommons" rare. First, he only provides power and toughness compared to other Bestows that lend relevant abilities. Second, he's useless in your opening hand because creatures don't die in the early game very much. I consider that a high risk-reward card, not a top quartile rare.
I also struggle to see how Arbor Colossus is that much better than Nessian Asp. Sure it kills a flier but not every deck will have one. Meanwhile the casting cost is a real issue while Asp is no problem at all. Not saying it's a bad card, I just don't see it as a top rare like the others while tend to be card advantage machines and/or unblockable threats.
Lastly, surprised to see Stymied Hopes as a "playable."
I think he's probably just wrong about Hythonia's power level. But still, considering the article intentionally simplifies very complicated subject matter and is mostly pretty accurate I'm very impressed with it!
I agree. I played against Hythonia last night, and that was not a successful game. If it goes off, the game is essentially over. How am I supposed to beat a 7/9 when I've been holding creatures in my hand? And, Hythonia's almost impossible to remove in this format. Combat tricks ain't going to do it unless you're already ahead on board. Even then, they can probably see that coming and just hold her back from blocking and then kill you next turn.
Another thing that sticks out is Last Breath in the sideboard. It kills, what, two thirds of the common creatures? Why is it in the board? I also agree with the bulk of the comments suggesting that Whip is pretty underrated in the article. Having played with it, it is not necessarily win-more. All of a sudden, my swings for 5 against your swings for 7 don't look bad at all to me. The reanimate ability is great in black as many people mentioned as well. I had Abhorrent Overlord with it the other day.
And, as he has listed, Elspeth is indeed the champion of the format. After last night, I have decided that in all but the craziest scenarios, it is game over. Even with Mogis's Maruader I couldn't punch enough through because he could keep mana open for removal (really all you have to do after casting Elspeth). Both games actually saw me concede with Elspeth at 7 and him about to untap. And, no, you don't have to be drooling in the corner to "let" Elspeth get to 7. This is not constructed. He also was behind when he dropped her in both games... I think anybody that claims Elspeth is win more is dead wrong. It completely turned the tide and then took over against me.
The Bow is amazing when you're ahead on board and is able to force bad blocks or pushes through lots of damage. It's similarly excellent when the board is stalled and you can build up your team over a few turns. Lastly it has at least some utility when you're behind.
Not to mention the random upside of the graveyard and flyer hate. The versatility is what makes this card amazing.
I don't think I have the discipline to pass any of the gods for any of the uncommons listed as "top" in the article, although I understand the reasoning behind it.
Oh, if a God goes by me, I'm taking it. But it still behooves me to understand the degree to which it will be realistically helpful.
Oh, if a God goes by me, I'm taking it. But it still behooves me to understand the degree to which it will be realistically helpful.
Erebos is definitely not a high pick in Limited. "Can't gain life" is a matchup play, not something relevant in most games. Drawing a card for 2 life is OK but when you wasted your Turn 4 + future mana on it, you probably can't afford to be spending life. And as many have pointed out, it's a lot harder to achieve Devotion to a god than most people think.
The one I disagree most strongly with though is Nighthowler as a "nearly as good as top uncommons" rare...
...Lastly, surprised to see Stymied Hopes as a "playable."
Agreed on the Nighthowler.. you saw the draftcap I posted where I passed it for a card that might not even have been in my colors. I did see it do some work on a CF draft video the other day, but, who knows. I can find room in my heart to give it another shot.
Stymied Hopes, however, I like. By which I mean, I like to MD one copy and side it out. I'm having the most success in this format with tempo, and it screws up their tempo for the rest of the match once they see it- and in the opener it can be just beautiful. I've even cast it late just to scry (which, admittedly, is poor use of a card slot, but at least it's not totally dead.) I think I've already described it as perhaps my favorite 23rd card of all time.
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My helpy helpdesk of helpfulness.
My Decks: EDH: Sygg, River Cutthroat , Road to Scion
Grimgrin, Corpseborn Modern: Polytokes IRL: Progenitus Polymorph , Goblins
Phyrre: While I'm not saying that Erebos is a high pick, he is in the only color that has a Devotion deck archetype that works in Limited.
Of all the colors, devotion to black is the best one to go after.
That, however, is mainly a Second/Third pack thing. If I'm in the Devotion deck, Erebos becomes a nice pickup. It's not p1p1 force devotion kind of thing (that would be Gary, if anything).
I've drafted Nighthowler only once, but it was good. Black has removal and that milling centaur. It's main advantages are somewhat cheap bestow cost, provide a good pump and gets even bigger once the creature carrying it dies. It's not a bomb, but it's solid.
PS: my main beef with his ranking were bident and whip. I rated them both higher than he does. And I rate the lance much lower.
Arbor colossus's monstrosity is on curve with the casting cost , Asp is not( but still great)
The uncommon gorgon is better because it doesn't blow up all of your stuff too, blacks like having permanents, and it comes down a mana earlier, and monstronsity earlier. Stabilizing at 5 mana is way different that 6.
I strongly disagree with Magma Jet or Triton Tactics over Bow -- and I love those cards! I agree that Bow has its limitations, but it's so versatile and it can bail you out of a lot of different scenarios. It's the flexibility that is valuable, not the absolute power of any one ability.
The two cards are very similar, but despite being slightly more expensive I'd rate Hythonia as stronger.
I think the argument is: if either becomes monstrous, you most likely win the game, so pick the cheaper one. 8 is 2 or 3 turns slower than 7, reducing the likelihood you'll get there, as many games end Hythonia gets a chance to go super saiyin
Great stuff all around.
My Decks:
EDH: Sygg, River Cutthroat , Road to Scion
Grimgrin, Corpseborn
Modern: Polytokes
IRL: Progenitus Polymorph , Goblins
Just a friendly reminder that I will drive this car off a bridge
I mean, I can kind of understand Thassa, since she's less useful on average in a Draft deck than in a Sealed deck (there's less crap you want to scry away), but surely Purphoros should be ranked higher than his own Emissary? Unless you're playing R/W nuts Heroic, he at least hits your opponent in the face every time you play a creature, aka the thing you are already doing a lot of because that's how you win in Theros Limited.
Am I missing something?
From the comments: "In some decks [he's very good], sure. In other decks, it's unplayable. I played with and against it and, in my experience, it was more frequently the latter than the former. Then again, cards like these are difficult to rank because they're highly deck dependent. First-pick first-pack, I prefer to take more solid all-round cards over it---cards that are good in every deck.
In hindsight, Favored Hoplite should be ranked a bit higher. But I'm not going to first pick it over Lightning Strike or anything like that."
My Decks:
EDH: Sygg, River Cutthroat , Road to Scion
Grimgrin, Corpseborn
Modern: Polytokes
IRL: Progenitus Polymorph , Goblins
Just a friendly reminder that I will drive this car off a bridge
Keepsake Gorgon = top uncommon
Hythonia the Cruel = rare that is worse than top uncommons
The two cards are very similar, but despite being slightly more expensive I'd rate Hythonia as stronger.
Practice for Khans of Tarkir Limited:
Draft: (#1) (#2) (#3) (#4) (#5)
So I kind of understand why it's ranked that low. It needs a very specific set-up to be very good.
Overall this is good reference. Some of the Gods though I am surprised to find a bit low, Heliod in particular - guy just continues to pop out tokens every time. Slow, but good in grind-y games.
Technically he's not rating strength so much as "early-pick value without any other factors," but I get what you mean.
I presume the reasoning is that killing a specific creature on one turn is better than killing all creatures a turn later. And I can't really argue with that reasoning, although I'd still probably pick Hythonia because I like her. (It's a moot point, of course, since you're basically never going to have to choose.)
Yeah, but in a vacuum it's iffy. Consider that white in Theros as a whole tends to be faster and based on smaller creatures (that grow) with Heroic and combat tricks. If you're paired with another color that lets you build slow and grindy, then great, but if all you know is that you're in white (these are hypothetical first picks, after all), then there's a decent chance Heliod won't really help the deck you end up drafting.
(I'm on on this site much anymore. If you want to get in touch it's probably best to email me: dom@heffalumps.org)
Forum Awards: Best Writer 2005, Best Limited Strategist 2005-2012
5CB PotM - June 2005, November 2005, February 2006, April 2008, May 2008, Feb 2009
MTGSalvation Articles: 1-20, plus guest appearance on MTGCast #86!
<Limited Clan>
Hoo boy, I couldn't disagree with ya more. On the play it blanks Wingsteeds and more, screws up combat math and wins any but the most unbeatable of races.
My Decks:
EDH: Sygg, River Cutthroat , Road to Scion
Grimgrin, Corpseborn
Modern: Polytokes
IRL: Progenitus Polymorph , Goblins
Just a friendly reminder that I will drive this car off a bridge
The one I disagree most strongly with though is Nighthowler as a "nearly as good as top uncommons" rare. First, he only provides power and toughness compared to other Bestows that lend relevant abilities. Second, he's useless in your opening hand because creatures don't die in the early game very much. I consider that a high risk-reward card, not a top quartile rare.
I also struggle to see how Arbor Colossus is that much better than Nessian Asp. Sure it kills a flier but not every deck will have one. Meanwhile the casting cost is a real issue while Asp is no problem at all. Not saying it's a bad card, I just don't see it as a top rare like the others while tend to be card advantage machines and/or unblockable threats.
Lastly, surprised to see Stymied Hopes as a "playable."
I agree. I played against Hythonia last night, and that was not a successful game. If it goes off, the game is essentially over. How am I supposed to beat a 7/9 when I've been holding creatures in my hand? And, Hythonia's almost impossible to remove in this format. Combat tricks ain't going to do it unless you're already ahead on board. Even then, they can probably see that coming and just hold her back from blocking and then kill you next turn.
Another thing that sticks out is Last Breath in the sideboard. It kills, what, two thirds of the common creatures? Why is it in the board? I also agree with the bulk of the comments suggesting that Whip is pretty underrated in the article. Having played with it, it is not necessarily win-more. All of a sudden, my swings for 5 against your swings for 7 don't look bad at all to me. The reanimate ability is great in black as many people mentioned as well. I had Abhorrent Overlord with it the other day.
Some are dead on though, of course.
Agent of the Fates is indeed absurd. I felt like a troll last night when I was able to trigger him three turns in a row last night getting rid of Agent of Horizons, Nessian Asp, and then Nemesis of Mortals. Not even remotely fair. I think Sea God's Revenge might get my nod as numero uno uncommon over Keepsake.
And, as he has listed, Elspeth is indeed the champion of the format. After last night, I have decided that in all but the craziest scenarios, it is game over. Even with Mogis's Maruader I couldn't punch enough through because he could keep mana open for removal (really all you have to do after casting Elspeth). Both games actually saw me concede with Elspeth at 7 and him about to untap. And, no, you don't have to be drooling in the corner to "let" Elspeth get to 7. This is not constructed. He also was behind when he dropped her in both games... I think anybody that claims Elspeth is win more is dead wrong. It completely turned the tide and then took over against me.
That's because it's a top rare.
The Bow is amazing when you're ahead on board and is able to force bad blocks or pushes through lots of damage. It's similarly excellent when the board is stalled and you can build up your team over a few turns. Lastly it has at least some utility when you're behind.
Not to mention the random upside of the graveyard and flyer hate. The versatility is what makes this card amazing.
Yeah, that is a top rare in my book.
Oh, if a God goes by me, I'm taking it. But it still behooves me to understand the degree to which it will be realistically helpful.
Erebos is definitely not a high pick in Limited. "Can't gain life" is a matchup play, not something relevant in most games. Drawing a card for 2 life is OK but when you wasted your Turn 4 + future mana on it, you probably can't afford to be spending life. And as many have pointed out, it's a lot harder to achieve Devotion to a god than most people think.
Agreed on the Nighthowler.. you saw the draftcap I posted where I passed it for a card that might not even have been in my colors. I did see it do some work on a CF draft video the other day, but, who knows. I can find room in my heart to give it another shot.
Stymied Hopes, however, I like. By which I mean, I like to MD one copy and side it out. I'm having the most success in this format with tempo, and it screws up their tempo for the rest of the match once they see it- and in the opener it can be just beautiful. I've even cast it late just to scry (which, admittedly, is poor use of a card slot, but at least it's not totally dead.) I think I've already described it as perhaps my favorite 23rd card of all time.
My Decks:
EDH: Sygg, River Cutthroat , Road to Scion
Grimgrin, Corpseborn
Modern: Polytokes
IRL: Progenitus Polymorph , Goblins
Just a friendly reminder that I will drive this car off a bridge
Of all the colors, devotion to black is the best one to go after.
That, however, is mainly a Second/Third pack thing. If I'm in the Devotion deck, Erebos becomes a nice pickup. It's not p1p1 force devotion kind of thing (that would be Gary, if anything).
Okay, I'll bite. Why?
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PS: my main beef with his ranking were bident and whip. I rated them both higher than he does. And I rate the lance much lower.
The uncommon gorgon is better because it doesn't blow up all of your stuff too, blacks like having permanents, and it comes down a mana earlier, and monstronsity earlier. Stabilizing at 5 mana is way different that 6.
It does a lot of good things, I just think their are a lot of better rares and even non-rares that I would first pick over it.
You are rarely going to have a choice between two rares.
What uncommons would you take over it?
heliod's emissary
keepsake gorgon
magma jet
phalanx leader
sea god's revenge
thassa's emissary
triton tactics
I think the argument is: if either becomes monstrous, you most likely win the game, so pick the cheaper one. 8 is 2 or 3 turns slower than 7, reducing the likelihood you'll get there, as many games end Hythonia gets a chance to go super saiyin