Dragon's Maze 2HG Best Color Combo?

  • #1
    Hello,

    I am planning to participate in a 2HG Sealed Prerelease Tournament, where every player gets a prerelease guildpack.
    Just in terms of Color combination:

    What do you think is the wisest choise? Two packs sharing one color? Or 2 completely different guilds sharing no color, so that the chance to find a second "secret" Guildbooster which fits in the colors is hihger?

    Perhaps one should pick two guilds from different sets? Or better form the same Set?

    What do you think?
  • #2
    For 2HG I do think it would be a bad idea to select 2x of the same guild. You would likely end up with one amazing deck and one terrible deck. In 2HG, you need both decks to be contributing to the game.

    I think two guilds from different sets would be ideal. That way there's a chance you get matching guild packs. For example:

    If you select Dimir, your secret ally can be almost any guild from RTR:

    Azorius (Blue)
    Izzet (Blue)
    Rakdos (Black)
    Golgari (Black)

    The only guild pack you can't get is Selesnya. Therefore Dimir-Selesnya is a bad pairing. You want to maximize the chance that you and your partner open each other's guild packs and you just swap them and make strong decks.

    The pairings to avoid are:

    Selesnya-Dimir
    Rakdos-Simic
    Golgari-Boros
    Azorius-Gruul
    Izzet-Orzhov

    That still leaves you 20 different combinations of RTR-GTC guilds that have equal chance of lucking into double guild packs. It's impossible to say which of those 20 is the strongest, especially not knowing anything about Dragon's Maze. Even with a full spoiler the sheer number of combinations may make it impossible to identify the best ones. Especially for the prerelease just pick a combo that seems fun and hope you open the nuts (matching guild packs).

    Odds of hitting at least one matching guild pack using this strategy: 44%
    Odds of living the dream and hitting both: 6%

    BTW, those 6% of pools will likely dominate the 2HG tournaments. Having two decks each with two matching guild packs will be tremendously powerful. It almost doesn't matter how Dragon's Maze is designed.
    Last edited by Phyrre56: 4/2/2013 9:00:22 AM
  • #3
    I disagree, at both the RtR and GtC 2headed giant events the winners where I played used 2 of the same guild. Doing this allowed them to both have a very decent curve and a good amount of removal for each deck. I fought with my teammate for weeks about what we would play. We ended up using Dimir/Gruul, to no avail. My partner hoped that we would be able to give each other the cards they needed for their guild. But unfortunetly we ended up with a solid Dimir and a mediocre Gruul.

    I thoroughly believe that 2 Dimir, 2 Boros and 2 Orzhov are the best choices.

    With Dimir you can build a dedicated mill/removal deck and one that is more creature based. 2 Boros gives you a chance at a good aggro and a good midrange deck to work together. And 2 Orzhov (my personal favorite after seeing how damaging extort is in 2headed) let's both of you build a deck that curves nicely and can extort the hell out of someone.

    This is just from personal experience but having access to as many cards of one guild as possible is best.
  • #4
    Quote from Arcanis12
    This is just from personal experience but having access to as many cards of one guild as possible is best.


    Aren't you just throwing away 40-60% of your best cards from the non-guild boosters with this approach, because you're both using the same main colors of mana? It seems like that can't be optimal.
  • #5
    generally speaking two different ones is better, but meh, we don't know dragons maze yet. maybe the cards there support 1 or 2 guilds better.
  • #6
    Considering that the prerelease packs are 4/6 DGM, we can't say yet.
  • #7
    Anyone else concerned about the logistics of the DGM prerelease? There will be twice as many different guild packs, for the same number of players. In the past prereleases, there was a consensus best guild (based on internet writers / pros). There will now be less of the consensus best guild(s) to go around.

    Imagine walking into a prerelease like Gatecrash, where Boros had a huge advantage, and being told you had to play against Boros but you got there too late to run it yourself. Kind of a bad deal, right?
  • #8
    I thought you selected one guild from GTC and the other guild was one of the guilds that shared a color from RtR? Thus, only 5 choices again?
  • #9
    Thanks for the tipps so far.

    @ Phyrre56:

    I didn't see the case from yopur point of view till now, but it sounds logical. I thought in an other direction:
    Premise 1: We go four Color: In that way nearly any good card in the pool can potentially be played
    Premise 2: We both dislike Dimir just for flavor reasons.

    But that leaves open many guild combinations.
    Next question was: Would it be better to combine 2 Guilds from different sets, or would it be wiser to choose 2 from the same set. The Difference lies in the secret ally guildbooster.
    When choosing from different Sets, the secondary color of 2 of the 4 possible secret ally boosters in your guildpack fits the primary color of your colleague. When choosing Guilds from the same Set: 3 of the 4 secret ally guildboosters met that condition!

    So for our Prerelease we chose Gruul + Orzhov.

    Of course you can choose the guilds in a way that makes it possible to get your colleagues guildbooster as your secret pack, but that is only by a chance of 1/4. And only 1/16 of all Teams going that way have the luck to open two fitting ally boosters.

    And to the other posters: I don't think it's wise to choose two times the same guild. Normally you would get one godlike deck and one very suboptimal deck.
    But with one of your guildboosters and all the good cards from 8 to 10 other Boosters, it should be easier to shuffle to very good decks together.


    Quote from pierrebai
    I thought you selected one guild from GTC and the other guild was one of the guilds that shared a color from RtR? Thus, only 5 choices again?


    You choose one guild to play from GTC and RTR. So there are 10 different guildpacks. Each one contains a secret Guildbooster from an allied guild from the OTHER Set. But nevertheless there are 10 different Packs you can choose from..

    At my Prerelease they have 4 of each pack resulting in 40 players at a maximum. At the preregistration you choose your pack from the available ones. First come first serve.
  • #10
    Quote from KJaneway
    When choosing from different Sets, the secondary color of 2 of the 4 possible secret ally boosters in your guildpack fits the primary color of your colleague. When choosing Guilds from the same Set: 3 of the 4 secret ally guildboosters met that condition!


    Interesting. But I'm not sure if that analysis gets you where you want to go. Think about the structure of guild packs -- they have some monocolored cards, but the rare in the guild is definitely a gold card. It has the highest potential to be a bomb, so you want to be able to run it.

    Using your Gruul-Orzhov strategy, one of you will have to splash a 3rd color to play any gold card from RTR. Playing something like Rakdos, Lord of Riots is essentially impossible. (I don't even know if Rakdos is in guild packs but you get the point.)

    Your strategy seems to maximize utility. You're very likely to get some mono-colored cards in the guildpacks that you can run. My strategy is more swinging for the fences. The odds of it working perfectly are slim, but when it does work it would seem to be the best possible card pool. (It's not terrible even when it doesn't work.)
  • #11

    You choose one guild to play from GTC and RTR. So there are 10 different guildpacks. Each one contains a secret Guildbooster from an allied guild from the OTHER Set. But nevertheless there are 10 different Packs you can choose from..


    So basically it's like this:

    I go to the release event and select Simic as my guild.

    I get:
    - A GTC Simic Guildbooster
    - 4 Packs of DGM
    - A guildbooster from RTR that has either green or blue (which means, it can be anything but Rakdos).

    According the initial announcement at the MS, the guildboosters have the same contents as the original guildboosters, minus the special promo.

    So, at first thought, if you want to win with a boring deck, it's probably best to select either Boros or Rakdos and hope you get the other one as the random secret allied guild, as both those guilds were fairly dominant at their respective releases.

    Of course, if you want to have a good time at the prerelease and play wacky cards, you're probably better off picking Simic or Izzet and hoping for the other one as the secret guild ;). Or Dimir/Golgari =D
  • #12
    Quote from Phyrre56
    Interesting. But I'm not sure if that analysis gets you where you want to go. Think about the structure of guild packs -- they have some monocolored cards, but the rare in the guild is definitely a gold card. It has the highest potential to be a bomb, so you want to be able to run it.


    Are you sure with that goldcard info? My RTR Rare was the Green White Selesnya Leader, but my GTC Guildbooster Rare was a Frontline Medic which is mono white. So are only the RTR Packs golden? Because in GTC you can also get Monocoloured Rares.

    Edit: I you you added odds in your upper Post. I'm not that good in statistics: Can you clarify me your calculations resulting in 44 and 6 %.. Okay 6% is 1/16. Got it. But why 44%
    Last edited by KJaneway: 4/3/2013 9:45:40 AM
  • #13
    I thought that guild pack rares were always gold, because they are drawn from a subset of the rares that match that guild. I could be wrong in which case my argument is less strong.

    The 44% is (1-.75*.75) aka the inverse of the odds that you whiff on both packs you're trying to match.
  • #14
    Quote from Phyrre56
    Aren't you just throwing away 40-60% of your best cards from the non-guild boosters with this approach, because you're both using the same main colors of mana? It seems like that can't be optimal.


    Again just from personal experience the guild packs I saw, both mine and other peoples, there weren't many wasted cards certainly not around 50%. The people I saw that took the same guild had less unused cards than the ones that tried to build decks for 2 guilds. With me and my partner I had a very good Dimir deck but he had an almost unplayable Gruul one, even with the extra cards I had in his color. And he didn't have only 3 useful ones in my colors.

    Dragon maze is gonna be different since there are about 100 less cards in the set, and the fact that that we are getting a "secret" ally guild. I think either 2x Dimir or Orzhov is going to be the best idea. Take this with a grain of salt until we see the cards though.

    ? Do we know if all the keyword mechanics are coming back in DM?
  • #15
    If you want to maximize odds for doubling same guild packs, why don't go same guild? I mean, that''s like 100% instead of 44%, and then, you still have 6% of having another double....

    Edit: Also, I think deck picking may be different in DGM. It was quite clear double anything-but-simic was great in GTC. But that was when you can abuse 2 guild packs and 10 GTC packs for orzhov or dimir.

    Selesnya loses a bit when you go from 2gp+10RTR packs, to just 2 guild packs. Etc...

    So I guess you want a guild that does not rely on hitting X cards of the same type to remain efficient (if you play dimir without enough mill, it's quite sad).

    Edit2: Some number crunching for Orzhov says it averages around 2.713 extort cards per guild pack, hence you can expect an average of 5 extort cards in 2 guild packs. 0 being quite unlikely (under 2.5% for each pack to get 0 extort cards). Is 4-6 extort cards worth it to play Orzhov?
    With 5 Extort cards, you have a 64% chance of having at least one in your opening hand, and 57.7 after mulligan, which is not that bad. Probably not ideal if you rely on it to give you survivability, but you shall be getting some other shenanigans (like, removal). Chances drop to 55% with 4 extort cards in your deck.
    Last edited by Koalita: 4/11/2013 4:07:34 AM
  • #16
    Because I don't want to have a god like "I own you all" Deck and one that gets slayed by every other deck. We want to have two decent decks utilizing ALL the good cards in the boosters
  • #17
    Well, IMHO getting all the cards from 1 color from 8 DGM packs to choose from, add in probably 1 guild pack of said color, means you have quite a strong deck. Say you double Orzhov, and get allied packs Selesnya and Rakdos. All the blue cards in 8 DGM packs are open for you. You may splash whatever is strongest, and get some from the Rakdos if playing red, or Selesnya if going green.

    I want to attend to a 2HG event with a friend who has problems with deckbuilding, so if we finally go, I plan to double a guild, so he can pick whatever he wants from the pool, and I'll build with whatever is left. And I prefer to get the larger pool, tbh.
  • #18
    My Azorius guild booster from the RtR prerelease had Palisade Giant. I know Wild Beastmaster showed up either in Selesnya or Golgari (or both). So they don't need to be multicolored and they don't need to have the guild's watermark to be in the booster.

    I think the more important question as to the guild booster contents is whether Pack Rat was a possibility in either Rakdos or Golgari packs.

    As for 2HG, I don't know if I'd rather double up on something like Dimir, where you might get a powerful mill deck or a pile of unplayables*, or something like Boros, where you have a reasonable chance of getting a playable or bomb rare? I mean, if one of your decks has Aurelia and/or Firemane Avenger, then you should be able to construct something decent from 2 RtR guild boosters + 8 DGM boosters. Worst case scenario on doubling up Boros rares is probably something like the red Primoridlal + Legion Loyalist.

    *When my team doubled up on Dimir for GTC, we actually had more good Dimir cards than we could fit in one deck. However for DGM, you aren't guaranteed 2x Consuming Aberration with this strategy and your build strategy can change quite a bit.
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