Gatecrash Mechanics Discussion

  • #26
    The new set of spoilers today finally got me excited about this set. Simic and Orzhov look like they're going to be ridiculously fun to play with.

    Does Extort seem somewhat overpowered to anyone else? In a defensive minded deck with maybe a few evasive creatures, mid-late game spells get nuts if you have 3+ extort cards on the board and available mana. Its a possible 6 point life swing almost every turn.

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  • #27
    Evolve - curving out is probably best to max this. GU either has a strong tempo strategy or some kind of "go big" strategy, I guess it's the former.

    Batallion - play lots of dudes (preferably smallish dudes), attack, profit

    Bloodrush - play dudes, attack, use bloodrush or play more dudes

    Cipher - play dudes (preferably evasive dudes), encode them, attack and profit

    Exort - play defense and ping


    I hope the removal (bounce) is strong and plentiful, because every guild except orzhov seems it wants to race and blocking does not seem like a good idea.

    Anyway, I'll be playing 5cc. Expect the unexpected.
  • #28
    Quote from Crypt Rat
    The simplest designs are the most obvious. There will be one with flying. Probably a 2/2 for 2WW.


    Please don't confuse this thread by wildly speculating and making up cards. It's hard enough to judge a mechanic from 2 or 3 real cards.
  • #29
    I'm expecting more +1/+1 token combat tricks in Simic. We've already seen (3?) spoilers which allow you to use the +1/+1 tokens on simic cards to gain extra abbilities such as drawing cards, regenerating, and redistributing to other cards. I don't think combat tricks are going to be scant in simic limited.
  • #30
    Quote from Everlastingwords
    I'm expecting more +1/+1 token combat tricks in Simic. We've already seen (3?) spoilers which allow you to use the +1/+1 tokens on simic cards to gain extra abbilities such as drawing cards, regenerating, and redistributing to other cards. I don't think combat tricks are going to be scant in simic limited.


    But drawing cards, regenerating, and redistributing counters to other cards are not combat tricks. Combat tricks are instants that change combat math in a way that surprises the opponent. None of those cards you mentioned do that.

    Perhaps what we'll see in lieu of combat tricks is flash creatures that can trigger Evolve during combat.
  • #31
    Quote from bji
    But drawing cards, regenerating, and redistributing counters to other cards are not combat tricks. Combat tricks are instants that change combat math in a way that surprises the opponent. None of those cards you mentioned do that.

    Perhaps what we'll see in lieu of combat tricks is flash creatures that can trigger Evolve during combat.



    Common Bond would be an example of a +1/+1 counter combat trick which synergizes with the printed abilities on Simic cards. No drawing cards isn't an effect that is a built-in combat trick. Though it is an effect which makes +1/+1 counter based combat tricks furthermore effective. Creatures with flash are also beneficial.
  • #32
    Bloodrush mechanic seems pretty strong. The fact that the creatures can used as board presence or combat trick is pretty strong in limited
  • #33
    So, basically:

    Level 1:

    Boros: wants to be aggressive, attacking with 3 or more creatures.
    Dimir: wants to connect with evasives
    Gruul: wants to be attacking, with lots of combat tricks making it hard to block
    Orzhov: wants to play the long game, never needing to attack
    Simic: wants to curve out perfectly or win the long game with massive dudes.

    Level 2:

    Boros: Red Gruul cards complement its strategy, but White Orzhov cards don't.
    Dimir: Black Orzhov cards help a bit because of the Cipher/Extort interaction. Blue Simic cards don't help much since Dimir won't be playing many creatures (especially big ones, since Dimir favors evasion over size).
    Gruul: Red Boros cards complements its aggressiveness. Playing lots of creatures means Green Simic cards with Evolve work well.
    Orzhov: White Boros cards don't complement its strategy. Black Dimir cards are a bit better, but aren't really a great fit.
    Simic: Green Gruul creatures complement Evolve. Blue Dimir cards don't.

    The winner here seems to be Gruul, with the other two guilds in its colors complementing its gain plan.

    Level 3:

    Esper: Cipher's copies are cast, which triggers Extort. There's potential here.
    Naya: Two aggressive decks synergizing. Gruul's high creature count makes it easy to turn Battalion on, then use any extra creatures to protect it.
    RBW: One guild want to be aggressive and the other doesn't.
    RUG: Gruul is synergistic with evolve. Blue provides evasion, which turns Bloodrush into damage.
    BUG: Antisynergy, since Simic wants lots of big creatures and Dimir wants a few evasive ones.

    Looks like the best is Naya, followed by RUG than Esper.

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  • #34
    Quote from Raver
    Bloodrush mechanic seems pretty strong. The fact that the creatures can used as board presence or combat trick is pretty strong in limited


    I agree. It's a huge advantage to stuff your deck with what are effectively Creature / Combat Trick split cards. It's also weird that the Gruul mechanic seems more reckless aggro than the Rakdos mechanic.

    The sheer amount of tricks available to an attacking Gruul player mean that most Gruul creatures might as well say "Can't be blocked." At least unless the defending player has a trick up their sleeve. Bloodrush turns instant speed removal and bounce into blowout cards.
  • #35
    Quote from Phyrre56
    It's also weird that the Gruul mechanic seems more reckless aggro than the Rakdos mechanic.


    Not at all. Unleash strategy is to simply beat the opponents down without regard for one's own life. Bloodrush is more calculated in choosing between continued board presence and one shot combat tricks.
  • #36
    Quote from Phyrre56
    Please don't confuse this thread by wildly speculating and making up cards. It's hard enough to judge a mechanic from 2 or 3 real cards.
    I'm basing my evaluation on Chasm Drake. Though to be fair, Chasm Drake was a fine body even without a friend.


    If Evolve dampens the use of combat trick, then so to will sorceries with Cipher. Interesting that Bloodrush is in a different guild.
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  • #37
    Quote from Phyrre56
    The sheer amount of tricks available to an attacking Gruul player mean that most Gruul creatures might as well say "Can't be blocked."


    Why is that? You can still block and they have to use their combat trick. They may gain a bit of tempo, but so far the combat tricks in Gruul actually look worse than those in Selesnya. So far the Bloodrush cards we've seen (only three of course) all cost 3 to Bloodrush. I don't think that will be the case for all of them, but at least for those three, we're not talking about a huge tempo gain for the Gruul player. I don't mind losing my creature to a three-mana combat trick that has no lasting advantage. The Selesnya tricks are so good because they all do something good and different: Giant Growth reliably gains you tempo by costing 1 mana; Swift Justice is less reliable but when effective it also gains tempo + life; Chorus of Might gives you extra damage to the face; Common Bond and Rootborn Defenses can both affect more than one block and leave something behind, thus creating card advantage.

    I think the strength of Gruul will be more based on the fact that their creatures will be large than on Bloodrush. It's not a bad ability to have, of course, but it becomes better once you already have huge monsters in play that they can't efficiently block. If they have efficient blocks for your guys, they can just trade 1 for 1 with Bloodrush cards. I also think people will be way too eager to Bloodrush. For example on turn 3, you could attack your two-drop into theirs and use Zhur-Taa Swine to win the combat. But why would you? You should probably want to keep the 5/4 because it's the sort of creature that is by itself hard to block.
    Last edited by Tahn: 1/1/2013 8:52:23 AM
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  • #38
    Quote from Tahn
    You can still block and they have to use their combat trick.


    That's true. You've changed my thinking about it. For the most part they're still just getting 1-for-1 trades, and not the "Giant Growth tempo boost" kind.

    I suppose the moral of the story is don't double block against Gruul! Then you're turning Bloodrush into a potential 2-for-1 ability. Double blocking always leaves you open to that risk, it's just that on average a Gruul deck will have many more combat tricks for attackers than we're used to.
  • #39
    Quote from Tahn
    But why would you? You should probably want to keep the 5/4 because it's the sort of creature that is by itself hard to block.
    The way I see it, if they don't block early, they have to block everything late because you can just unload a couple of Bloodrush cards on a creature they didn't block for less expensive Lava Axes.

    Dimir and Simic creatures seem like they will be too small to reliably trade with early Gruul threats anyway and Boros doesn't want to trade since it needs to have 3 creatures for Battalion.
    Last edited by Crypt Rat: 1/1/2013 12:38:18 PM
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  • #40
    Quote from Crypt Rat
    Dimir and Simic creatures seem like they will be too small to reliably trade with early Gruul threats anyway and Boros doesn't want to trade since it needs to have 3 creatures for Battalion.

    Do you know what the simic mechanic is?

    I respectfully suggest that they might be big enough.
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  • #41
    Do we know what the pack order will be? Triple Gatecrash?
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  • #42
    Quote from magicmerl
    Do you know what the simic mechanic is?

    I respectfully suggest that they might be big enough.
    Not as soon as they're played, no. And certainly not in top deck mode. I'm suggesting that the Gruul plan will be to get early beats in while Simic creatures haven't caught up to the value of their cost. In the late game, Bloodrush will be used as a finisher when possible, either through evasion (trample / intimidate) or through having more creatures than they have blockers. When it can't be used as a finisher or is too risky to do so, then the creature will be played out normally.

    I can always be wrong, though.

    The 0/1 is certainly about as all-in as a common can get for the Evolve mechanic. And not all the creatures in the UG decks will have evolve, thereby having normal P/T as soon as they're cast...
    Last edited by Crypt Rat: 1/1/2013 6:29:51 PM
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  • #43
    Quote from Hardened
    Do we know what the pack order will be? Triple Gatecrash?


    It will be triple Gatecrash until Dragon Maze comes out. Then it will be DGM/GTC/RTR.
  • #44
    I feel like from what we've seen mechanically, the guilds will have much more strategical identity in Gatecrash than they did in RtR. None of those mechanics had a pervasive effect on the game. Here, you'll be constantly leaving a blocker for dimir, keeping Boros below 3 creatures, calculating what combat tricks gruul could have, messing with simic's curve, and killing orzhov ASAP. The latest simic spoiler suggests there will be synergy between most all of the guilds too. Really looking forward to it.
  • #45
    WE haven't seen much, but Hands of Binding looks like our token way-overpowered common. I'm seeing Simic-splash-Dimir as the go to strategy, as Cloudfin Raptor is going to be a nutso common as well.
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  • #46
    Quote from bocephus
    It will be triple Gatecrash until Dragon Maze comes out. Then it will be DGM/GTC/RTR.


    Wait - what? It's not going to be GTC/RTR/RTR in online draft like in the past?

    Drat. And phew. I am definitely of two minds about this.

    ~M
  • #47
    No, since RTR featured different guilds then GTC does they are drafted separately. Once DGM comes out they'll be drafted all together because DGM will have cards from every guild.
  • #48
    Quote from Magister_Returns
    Wait - what? It's not going to be GTC/RTR/RTR in online draft like in the past?

    Drat. And phew. I am definitely of two minds about this.

    ~M


    I'm actually really excited. It'll give everyone a chance to really get into the Gatecrash guilds, with new color interactions and play strategies, nearly an entirely new format within the same block! Then we get to combine all the guilds and really start putting together mad scientist decks (well, at least until it becomes evident that certain color/guild combinations are just pants-on-head ridiculous and need to be avoided).
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  • #49
    Quote from Ferenczys
    I'm actually really excited. It'll give everyone a chance to really get into the Gatecrash guilds, with new color interactions and play strategies, nearly an entirely new format within the same block!


    I agree. The middle set of a block is usually the least exciting for Limited. When the format is still 2/3 the set from September, you just don't get enough impact from the new cards. Usually the archetypes only shift slightly.

    Now each draft format throughout the block will be unique and interesting.
  • #50
    Quote from Phyrre56
    When the format is still 2/3 the set from September, you just don't get enough impact from the new cards. Usually the archetypes only shift slightly.


    Indirectly, you do. For instance Dark Ascension destroyed a couple archetypes because the support wasn't there in 1/3 of the packs anymore.

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