Drafting RTR: How?

  • #1
    So never drafted a multi-color set and I'm really not sure where to begin. I know RTR is still pretty fresh so it's hard to say exactly what archetypes to go after and what cards are key but I'd like to know general tips.

    Things I'm wondering (and your opinions on):
    1)Guildgates are what pick #?
    2)Keyrunes are what pick #? Should you run off-color?
    3)Should you stay out of 3 colors unless one of those is green?
    4)BREAD? Maybe kinda?
    5)First picks outside of bombs would be what?

    Or just any other general tips you guys can think of. I'm sure it's going to be a lot of learning curve and on the go but if you guys have had experience with drafting the original Rav and Alara I'm sure you guys have some advice for multicolor drafting.
  • #2
    The one bit of insight I can provide is: keyrunes aren't correct unless you need both colours (they are pretty good for enabling splashes though). 3 mana acceleration that doesn't provide fixing isn't very good, and you won't be able to activate it. however, if you are splashing with one of the colours, then when you find another one of your splash sources, you'll also be able to animate it (which you don't care about doing till late game normally, anyway).

    Signets, in rav, were fine if they only had one of your colours, but that's because 2 mana acceleration is pretty good. In alara block, obelisks were only playable if you could use 2 of the 3 colours, and then just barely. Of course, if you were playing 5 colour control, you'd use all 3 colours they produced...
  • #3
    try to identify as early as possible if one of the guilds is open, especially Selesnya or Rakdos since they have the most linear gameplans and thus benefit the most from sticking to 2 colors. If you're getting fed strong cards for a 2 color deck then you don't have to prioritize the guildgates which gives you a slight edge on everything else; otherwise, you should be taking the mana fixing reasonably high since it will increase the range of powerful cards you can take in the later packs.
  • #4
    I think a good start would be to read through the RTR Draft's that people post in the Draftcap Discussion subforum. There's some great draft recaps in there on what the mindset of what direction the person was going, why they picked what they picked and what wheeled back to them and what didn't. I enjoyed reading through those and gained some RTR drafting tips I'll put in the back of my mind. There's some minor thoughts on Gates and Keyrunes and when they were picked, too.

    In general though, BREAD is always a good start. One "can't miss" card is Pack Rat, so if you see one on your first picks, you should probably take it, go Golgari or Rakdos and don't look back.
  • #5
    Obviously bombs will still be first picks...but after that, anything can be possible...i think BREAD will be hard to follow. i see many cases where fixers will be higher picks than some of the crappy removal like avenging arrow and launch party as one example.

    2-color drafting will be viable but with all the fixing and multicolored cards, 3-color just seems better and will probably be easier to draft. You also get to draft from a larger pool especially when p3 comes around.
    Last edited by TigerBlood: 10/3/2012 3:25:17 PM
  • #6
    Quote from qaid
    try to identify as early as possible if one of the guilds is open, especially Selesnya or Rakdos since they have the most linear gameplans and thus benefit the most from sticking to 2 colors. If you're getting fed strong cards for a 2 color deck then you don't have to prioritize the guildgates which gives you a slight edge on everything else; otherwise, you should be taking the mana fixing reasonably high since it will increase the range of powerful cards you can take in the later packs.


    Yep.

    My personal theory crafting about draft based on the pre-release is that golgari isn't even a guild.

    Azorius (tempo) - most likely to steal tricks from neighbours
    Easy to draft, since it follows the flyers.dec template that UW has always used. Detain is the best limited mechanic, being very good in small quantities and large quantities. Can very easily add red.

    Izzet (control) - can poach controlling cards from neighbours
    Hard to draft. Needs a balance between card draw, removal, blockers and win conditions. Will be good, but needs some time/experience to solve what is important. I look forward to watching LSV draft Izzet.

    Rakdos (aggro) - can poach controlling cards from neighbours
    Easy to draft. There are two ways to draft this deck, as 'all out' aggro (which is a little risky and requires you to luck into a critical mass of 2 drops) where the curve tops out at 4, and midrange, which goes 'over the top' with 5 and 6 drops.

    Golgari (crap) - will just be a bad version of neighbouring decks if splashing those colours.
    Easy to draft a clunky terrible deck. About the only card that seems best in a scavenge deck is Daggerdrome Imp

    Selesnya (tokens) - does not want to splash much, as must be devoted to populate theme
    Hard to draft. Selesnya looks like the most skill intensive deck to draft, what with constantly weighing the balance between token generators and populate cards, vs removal vs splashing.

    I find it very interesting that it seems like there could be two Grixis drafters happily sitting right next to each other, one drafting aggro and the other drafting control.


    Quote from Genghis Tron
    So never drafted a multi-color set and I'm really not sure where to begin. I know RTR is still pretty fresh so it's hard to say exactly what archetypes to go after and what cards are key but I'd like to know general tips.

    Things I'm wondering (and your opinions on):
    1)Guildgates are what pick #?
    2)Keyrunes are what pick #? Should you run off-color?
    3)Should you stay out of 3 colors unless one of those is green?
    4)BREAD? Maybe kinda?
    5)First picks outside of bombs would be what?

    Or just any other general tips you guys can think of. I'm sure it's going to be a lot of learning curve and on the go but if you guys have had experience with drafting the original Rav and Alara I'm sure you guys have some advice for multicolor drafting.

    Here's the biggest one: Hybrid cards are secretly 3 guilds, not 1. Frostburn Weird for example, is going to be useful as a UU wall in Azorius, a UR wall in Izzet and a RR attacker in Rakdos. Because 3 guilds want it, you need to pick it higher.

    Hybrid Cards > Mono-coloured cards > Gold cards

    To answer your questions:
    #1: Gates are ok but not awesome. Always coming in tapped means that some people want them and not others. 5-8th pick
    #2: Keyrunes are weak. Izzet and Golgari want them, but that is because they are slow and clunky guilds. 9-13th pick
    #3: Not necessarily. Selesnya can splash Bant (GWU) or Junk (GWB) fairly easily because of the extra fixing, but it doesn't really want to. Rakdos and Izzet can easily dabble in Grixis for entirely different reasons. I would try to stick to a single guild (NOT Golgari) for the first pack.
    #4: Yes. The rules of good drafting havn't been turned
    #5: The best commons are Dramatic Rescue, Hussar Patrol (Azorius), Voidwelder (Izzet/Azorius), Annihilating Fire (Izzet/Rakdos), Auger Spree (Rakdos), Stab Wound (Rakdos/Golgari), Towering Indrik (Golgari/Selesnya), Axebane Guardian (Golgari/Selesnya)

    It's hard to name any Selesnya commons because they are all so interdependant. Basically token producers and good populate cards are good.
    Last edited by magicmerl: 10/3/2012 8:56:46 PM
    magicmerls ~440 card powered cube, 180 card Winston stack, guild precons and girly pics

    let me state something - the things I tell you will not be wrong. It is you who will be wrong if you try arguing with me.
  • #7
    1) From 3rd pick in a very weak pack to 10th in an excellent one. I'm just making up those numbers. It depends on the number of colours/splashes you want to make and that's for you to decide. If you're straight 2 colours, I don't think you should feel guilty for passing them and in that case playing too many may actually be counterproductive. Transguild promenade is awesome at fixing your mana, but you may want to consider it as a 2 drop for your curve.

    2) I don't think I like them, in general. Like 6th/7th pick onwards? But I've been told I'm underrating them by a lot of people. IMO, you can't consider them as mana sources and cut lands, since you still need 3 mana to play them. And the creature side is just "too fair", if they're going to take a spell slot, just play a real creature. The slower the format is, the better they get and it actually looks slow.

    3) I think something like Grixis is totally doable (and much better than straight Izzet most of the time), but you can't make a 6/6/6 split of lands and call it a day, everytime you make a pick, consider what your manabase might look like and that may help you a lot in pack 3. If you realize soon 3 colours is where you're going, gates go much higher in value. I don't know if it's obvious, but if you go 3 colours try to be in 2 guilds at the same time, GWR doesn't get you anywhere. For me the big question is if 5 colors is anything real,I think not, but that's not going to stop me from trying Grin

    4) It has its issues. Bombs (you can cast) over anything, always. And then think about what the guilds do, your curve, how you plan to win... I don't think there's anything in BREAD that takes into account mana fixing and in this format that's something real. Pointless discussion about what the D in BREAD means incoming!

    5) Removal and good stuff. Thoughtflare, Guildmages, Skymark Roc, Gatecreeper Vine... I really don't know what to tell you.
  • #8
    bombs + stab wound seems like a good plan. In all seriousness, Stab Wound is pretty sick and will be a chase common for drafting. I would pursue variants that you are comfortable with. I am an aggro player at heart so that affects how I draft, if that means hard cutting or bypassing good stuff that i know I will not use properly.
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  • #9
    lobber crews + stab wounds
  • #10
    Yeah I'm wondering what to do about Golgari, other than just ignore it. Possible that if you're the only one drafting GB at a table of 8 you'll end up with a decent deck?
  • #11
    1)Pack 1? Pick 6+ (or if there's literally nothing better) Pack 2 and 3? If you still need them (don't run more than 2 or 3) pick them up as long as a bomb isn't also in this pack.
    2)Only take if they're both on color and they should be valued lower than the gates but the same pick #s and no more than 2-3
    3)3 colors is fine if you're picking up bombs in those colors and keyrunes/gates to support the extra color. 4 or 5 is a no go though.
    4)Bread is just as good as it is in other drafts here. (Although I'd up your mana fixing as a higher priority if you think you might go 3 color)
    5)Outside of bombs? Good Efficient removal and card advantage.
  • #12
    Quote from magicmerl
    Yep.

    My personal theory crafting about draft based on the pre-release is that golgari isn't even a guild.

    Azorius (tempo) - most likely to steal tricks from neighbours
    Easy to draft, since it follows the flyers.dec template that UW has always used. Detain is the best limited mechanic, being very good in small quantities and large quantities. Can very easily add red.

    Izzet (control) - can poach controlling cards from neighbours
    Hard to draft. Needs a balance between card draw, removal, blockers and win conditions. Will be good, but needs some time/experience to solve what is important. I look forward to watching LSV draft Izzet.

    Rakdos (aggro) - can poach controlling cards from neighbours
    Easy to draft. There are two ways to draft this deck, as 'all out' aggro (which is a little risky and requires you to luck into a critical mass of 2 drops) where the curve tops out at 4, and midrange, which goes 'over the top' with 5 and 6 drops.

    Golgari (crap) - will just be a bad version of neighbouring decks if splashing those colours.
    Easy to draft a clunky terrible deck. About the only card that seems best in a scavenge deck is Daggerdrome Imp

    Selesnya (tokens) - does not want to splash much, as must be devoted to populate theme
    Hard to draft. Selesnya looks like the most skill intensive deck to draft, what with constantly weighing the balance between token generators and populate cards, vs removal vs splashing.

    I find it very interesting that it seems like there could be two Grixis drafters happily sitting right next to each other, one drafting aggro and the other drafting control.

    Golgari will be VERY strong if you pull the good strong creatures. And table the rest of your deck because most people will pass on the weaker scavenge cards. I think you're seriously underestimating them. While also over estimating the value of detain cards. There are a lot of crappy detain cards that should be avoided.
  • #13
    Quote from Woocls
    Golgari will be VERY strong if you pull the good strong creatures.


    Which creatures are you referring to? Are you referring to commons?
  • #14
    Quote from naturax
    Which creatures are you referring to? Are you referring to commons?

    Who picks their colors/guild based on the commons you pull in the first few pulls? If you get a couple of the rare/uncommon creatures you'll table the common scavenge guys who are great late game that noone wants. Just make sure you're early picks are the evasive creatures and your late picks are scavenge. Seems pretty solid to me.
  • #15
    Who picks their colors/guild based on the commons you pull in the first few pulls?

    Uh, it's nice and all to start your draft with a powerful rare or uncommon, but I think it's a high variance strategy at best to DEPEND on getting them.

    I usually know what colours I am by about 5 picks into a draft. Or my main colour. With RTR I suspect I will know what guild I am in by about pick 5.

    Quote from Woocls
    Golgari will be VERY strong if you pull the good strong creatures.

    Which ones are those? We're talking about limited here. Please list for me the commons that pull you into Golgari (as opposed to Selesnya or Rakdos).

    Quote from Woocls
    over estimating the value of detain cards. There are a lot of crappy detain cards that should be avoided.
    Which ones are those? There are only 3 common detain cards, and I think that all of them will make every Azorius deck I ever draft. The Arrester is the weakest of them, but even then it's still quite respectable to play it on turn 5 to wave out their spider, swing with flyers, and chump on the backswing.
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    let me state something - the things I tell you will not be wrong. It is you who will be wrong if you try arguing with me.
  • #16
    Quote from magicmerl
    Uh, it's nice and all to start your draft with a powerful rare or uncommon, but I think it's a high variance strategy at best to DEPEND on getting them.

    I usually know what colours I am by about 5 picks into a draft. Or my main colour. With RTR I suspect I will know what guild I am in by about pick 5.

    So you're pulling commons with those first 5 picks? I don't see your point... Either you have the uncommons/rare to play your guild of choice or you don't.

    Which ones are those? We're talking about limited here. Please list for me the commons that pull you into Golgari (as opposed to Selesnya or Rakdos).
    None of them "pull you into golgari" that's why you'll table them if you're already IN golgari... Lifelink croc is a great one that will get passed a lot.

    Which ones are those? There are only 3 common detain cards, and I think that all of them will make every Azorius deck I ever draft. The Arrester is the weakest of them, but even then it's still quite respectable to play it on turn 5 to wave out their spider, swing with flyers, and chump on the backswing.
    Woocls's DeckMagic OnlineOCTGN2ApprenticeBuy These Cards
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    1 Azorius Arrester

    Look at all the past creatures who "detained" before this set. Kor Hookmaster and his friends and see how bad detain is. You have to literally hit one (outside of Marshal Law which is one of the good ones) every turn or risk getting over run with creatures you're not killing. And of those you listed I would only consider playing the draw a card one. That bird is a 6cmc flying 3/3?!? At 6 Rakdos is dropping 6/5s! Golgari is swinging in with it's scavenged upon 3/4 hexproof. Selesnya is about to drop 2 4/4 trample rhinos. Izzet is... probably casting 3 things that turn. (I don't really know izzet that well...) but you get my point. These cards are just over costed bad "removal" on a stick.
    Last edited by Woocls: 10/3/2012 6:54:37 PM
  • #17
    Quote from Woocls
    So you're pulling commons with those first 5 picks? I don't see your point... Either you have the uncommons/rare to play your guild of choice or you don't.
    Yes, I frequently draft nearly no rares and only a few uncommons in my decks. Commons are the backbone of any limited deck. I am more than happy to go into selesnya/rakdos/azorius based solely on commons, and be confident that my deck can 3-0. I don't think that that will be likely with either Izzet (which will be dependant on power uncommons) or Golgari (which has little inherent synergy).

    None of them "pull you into golgari" that's why you'll table them if you're already IN golgari... Lifelink croc is a great one that will get passed a lot.
    If I'm not pulled into golgari early, then I won't be drafting that guild. Why does it matter that weak golgari cards wheel? That's not good drafting, that's a trap. There's a reason why bad colour and archetypes are underdrafted. Because they don't deliver the results.

    Look at all the past creatures who "detained" before this set. Kor Hookmaster and his friends and see how bad detain is. You have to literally hit one (outside of Marshal Law which is one of the good ones) every turn or risk getting over run with creatures you're not killing.
    Kor Hookmaster was a good limited card. It's just that Zendikar block was completely unbalanced and warped around BR.

    And of those you listed I would only consider playing the draw a card one. That bird is a 6cmc flying 3/3?!? At 6 Rakdos is dropping 6/5s! Golgari is swinging in with it's scavenged upon 3/4 hexproof. Selesnya is about to drop 2 4/4 trample rhinos. Izzet is... probably casting 3 things that turn. (I don't really know izzet that well...) but you get my point. These cards are just over costed bad "removal" on a stick.

    Look, if I open a Vraska in my next draft, you can bet that I'll be taking it. And I'll more than likely be BG. But without some massive bomb to increase my deck quality and win percentage, I think that being pulled into golgari by picking average cards is going to be one of the things that separates not so good players from good ones.
    magicmerls ~440 card powered cube, 180 card Winston stack, guild precons and girly pics

    let me state something - the things I tell you will not be wrong. It is you who will be wrong if you try arguing with me.
  • #18
    Quote from magicmerl

    Golgari (crap) - will just be a bad version of neighbouring decks if splashing those colours.
    Easy to draft a clunky terrible deck. About the only card that seems best in a scavenge deck is Daggerdrome Imp


    I'd add Korozda Monitor. Selesnya will have other priorities and with GG casting cost nobody else is going to splash it. Its one of the better scavenge targets.

    You could also attempt to voltron up a Rubbleback Rhino with scavenge and a Deviant Glee splashing red for the trample. Getting Glee on your Imp early isn't too horrible even if it only hits once.

    I think your overall point is fairly sound though. There are nice BG rares and uncommons that might pull you into Golgari, but its not very attractive unless you do get those cards first/early.
  • #19
    You're right, those cards are good in a Golgari strategy too (except for Deviant Glee..).
    magicmerls ~440 card powered cube, 180 card Winston stack, guild precons and girly pics

    let me state something - the things I tell you will not be wrong. It is you who will be wrong if you try arguing with me.
  • #20
    First pack, take the strongest card you see. Then start to sense what your neighbor is picking and begin merging into a guild color. I'd take decent removals very highly since this set seems to have little quality removal. I would try hard to not go into a 3rd color but if you have to then I'd start looking at green fixers or gates in the mid 2nd pack. I haven't drafted yet so these are just thoughts.
  • #21
    Quote from magicmerl

    #5: The best commons are Dramatic Rescue, Hussar Patrol, Stab Wound (Azorius?), Voidwelder (Izzet/Azorius), Annihilating Fire (Izzet/Rakdos), Auger Spree (Rakdos), Stab Wound (Rakdos/Golgari), Towering Indrik (Golgari/Selesnya), Axebane Guardian (Golgari/Selesnya)


    Are you talking about a weird splash(since azorius will detain the creature/attack with flying so it doesn't chump) or did you mean a different card and get mixed up?
  • #22
    That's a copy/paste error, sorry.
    magicmerls ~440 card powered cube, 180 card Winston stack, guild precons and girly pics

    let me state something - the things I tell you will not be wrong. It is you who will be wrong if you try arguing with me.
  • #23
    Quote from magicmerl

    Golgari (crap) - will just be a bad version of neighbouring decks if splashing those colours.
    Easy to draft a clunky terrible deck. About the only card that seems best in a scavenge deck is Daggerdrome Imp


    Golgari still seems to me like the best control guild in the format. It has a mechanic which is inherent CA, making it the best control mechanic. It will be able to get good controlling black cards (since Rakdos players will tend to be aggro) and good non-token-themed green cards (since Selesnya players must value token and populate cards very highly).

    This didn't work quite as well as the prerelease since giving everyone an extra bomb doesn't help controlling strategies.

    Izzet seems to me like the "mess" guild. It has to spend draft picks to get the CA which Golgari gets for free. Overload seems like the weakest mechanic overall, and not really suited to a control strategy, unless you get one of the 2 rare bombs.

    Practice for Vintage Masters Limited:
    Draft: (#1) (#2) (#3) (#4)
  • #24
    I'm by no means excited by Deviant Glee, I just don't see too many ways for Golgari to avoid being chump blocked forever against Selesnya if they have scavenged up a 10/11 hexproof Rhino on the field.
  • #25
    Fixing is not great in the set. My working theory for now is, gates are not good for splashing. Rather put a basic since you will be wanting an untaped source as soon as you draw it. Gates are fine for the two main colors.
    Out of the door, line on the left, one cross each.
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