I really don't understand the people who claim the sky is falling every spoiler season when cards don't hit Eternal's VERY HIGH standards. We've if anything been having an abnormal rate of Eternal playables lately and it seems without fail people complain when a set is more normalized with MAYBE a couple of playables. This seems to happen every set lately until a pushed card is spoiled. There's still a LOT of set to go before you can start making wild claims.
+1, I know right?
When there are a lot of cards that have a Legacy impact, we're treated to complaints that the format is unrecognizable or that Wizards is pushing X or Y strategy, as a result some beloved archetype or pet deck is going the way of the Dodo bird.
There's such a thread on the subject of Prison decks already.
It's the Internet. Moaners gonna moan. Far as I'm concerned, the format is pretty cool right now as-is. Any big shakeup is more likely to come from an unbanning than a new card IMHO.
Here's how I look at it. Magic is like what, ~13000 cards at this point? How much of the cardpool can actually claim to be a Legacy staple? Maybe 1-2%?
I think ~2 playables in a set sounds about right when you think of it like that. And if those playables aren't as impactful as what we've been getting lately (some of the format's most warping strategies have come out of the past couple years), I'm more than okay with that.
I don't expect anything gamebreaking like DRS. But it would be nice to see something that is legacy playable besides Ashiok potentially.
Fleecemane lion is not legacy playable. Watchwolf hasn't been good enough for years due to power creep. As for that 5 mana monstrous ability? That doesn't make a card playable. Look at figure of destiny. For one more mana you can make it an 8/8 and before that it's a 4/4 on turn 3. Sure a 5/5 indestructible hexproof is good, but costing 7 to get that is not so good. And even if that is achieved, it still dies to liliana of the veil. Not to mention stifle turns into time walk against it.
Heliod can be played in enchantress as it stands. But it doesn't help the deck in any significant way; it's basically centaur glade that works well with serra's sanctum, and that's not what enchantress needs. Agreed with the boggle idea, if you want aggro enchantress build boggles/hexproof.dec with the best aura's in the game like daybreak coronet, unflinching courage, rancor, etc. etc.
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"Yawgmoth," Freyalise whispered as she set the bomb, "now you will pay for your treachery."
Can the two mana sorcery that digs for either an enchantment or a creature fit into the enchantress deck?
As an enchantress player I wouldn't dream of running it. The tempo loss is huge and the tutor effect is far too limited. I'd sooner run Enlightened Tutor.
This last group of cards is what Legacy players like to see. Not necessarily a lot at once, but one or two in any given set. In fact a reasonable case could be made that any set without at least one such card is total garbage not a very good set.
Theros was particularly promising being the "enchantment block". We've been starved for decent enchantments lately (mostly from Newb world order forward) as enchantments have lost much design space to hate-bears and walkers. Can you blame people for being disappointed when we see nothing good?
Also there was obviously much hope on the part of enchantress players. The last time we had an artifact block (New Mirrodin) artifact decks got tonnes of new toys! Nothing "game breaking" - these decks are hardly tier one - but lots to play with. For an enchantment block to seemingly give nothing at all to enchantment decks is quite a let down by comparison. Can you blame enchantress players for being a bit disappointed?
Got to agree. Enchantress needs the boost and if an entire "Enchantment" block can come out with no change to the price of Serra's Sanctum then something went wrong.
the fact that it might see some play in pox is a given. im more interest if even at 3 cmc if this will see play in other decks that splash black for control.
really what it comes down to is a 1 cmc stall card like pithing needle still better then a straight up answer at instant speed.
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"If there is such a thing as too much power, I have not discovered it." --Volrath BGBGBGBGBGBGBGBGBGBGBGB
let me elaborate some. im currently playing a GB control deck that is fairly strong across the board considering all the possible match ups. its a bit more difficult to win in some situations depending on drawing the right answer but it does have an answer for pretty much everything. so casting a BB spell is a none issue really even more so if i have urborg, tomb of yawgmoth.
one of the decks soft spots though is efficient answers for man lands and planeswalkers, i can stall with a pithing needle but i usually get a abrupt decay in response and at that point the game swings in the opponents favor. being able to pilot around the more evasive permanents like lands and planeswalkers would really bring this deck up a notch. but 1BB is still alot.
TLDR i wasn't really considering this a good card for more then a 2 color deck. but if it is a good card for a 2 color deck could we see a surge in these types of decks over things like loam and Blue/BUG based tempo/control decks
I like Hero's Downfall, and I think it will find its home in BUG Jace decks looking for a good answer in the mirror. The edge this has over Maelstrom Pulse is instant speed, but particularly the ability to hit their Planeswalker while leaving yours in play thanks to the new legend rule - I think this ability is something that BUG has been wanting with the new legend rule especially when the other Jace decks already have access to cards that do this be it Vindicate, Bolts, or Pyroblasts.
i dont think BUG will want this they already have the strongest control options with FOW/DAZE etc if they do want an answer to PW its probably from the SB in which case they would rather reach for pithing needle for its cheaper cost unless its against another BUG deck in which case its MORE counterspells since CS will beat targeted removal all day everday.
this card will probably find a home in B/and mono B decks only. i doubt it will find a home in other 3 color decks as well since those tend to be more on a aggro clock rather then a control clock. so this card is niche the real question is it efficient enough at 1BB for the decks where it is worth considering.
i could see this as a strong option if you can find a way to 2 for 1 with it such as hitting this with cascade from bloodbraid elf.
what ever the outcome black really needs this card, the only problem now is that blacks engine is still too slow to make use of it efficiently outside of standard and the negative card advantage of dark ritual.
now if black got a creature that could tutor it trinket mage style that could be the begining of something interesting, of course it would need some restrictions such as none blue instant whose mana cost is equal to or less then 3........ something along those lines
i dont think BUG will want this they already have the strongest control options with FOW/DAZE etc if they do want an answer to PW its probably from the SB in which case they would rather reach for pithing needle for its cheaper cost unless its against another BUG deck in which case its MORE counterspells since CS will beat targeted removal all day everday.
My comment was directed towards BUG decks that run Jace and Liliana, be it Shardless BUG or some variant on classic BUG Control.
They value a card like FoW very differently than something very heavily tempo driven like Team America, and as such they are going to side out FoW in the pseudo mirror match (and basically against any deck doing fair things) because losing two cards, especially when one of those cards you are losing is something like Brainstorm or Jace, is just bad in those matchups. They also don't run Daze to begin with as it's just not something that fits their gameplan of a strong mid to lategame. As far as countermagic that is good in the pseudo mirror you have Counterspell actually being very solid, and Spell Pierce and Spell Snare being decent. Shardless BUG can't play them because of deck constraints, and BUG Control only has room for so many of those cards (not that Spell Snare is relevant when it comes to Jace or Liliana). Discard can hit them preemptively but doesn't do anything to stop their ability to topdeck or cantrip their way into a Planeswalker.
Up until now, this didn't matter all that much because you just had Maelstrom Pulse to fall back on, but Maelstrom Pulse loses value because you can and will run into situations where you both have a Jace out and you can't deal with just theirs. Pithing Needle is in a similar position to Maelstrom Pulse, in that you can't just hit their Jace or Liliana. It's either both players get Jace or nobody gets Jace.
So the fact that this hits their walkers no questions asked at instant speed while also hitting anything from Delver to Griselbrand... I just can't see this not being played in BUG for the reasons I listed. Will every BUG player play it? No... but it's certainly a card to look at when you expect the metagame to be Jace heavy and need a way to get the leg up on them.
fair points but this is still niche within a niche its only relevant as a SB option against mirror matchs and only if they are using jace which as you stated most bug variants dont. maelstrom pulse can at least be a 2 for 1 if they are trying to grind you down quickly with multiple delvers. but i dont see it being heavily wanted for none bug match ups and slightly wanted for mirror match ups as maelstrom although slower is more flexible.
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"If there is such a thing as too much power, I have not discovered it." --Volrath BGBGBGBGBGBGBGBGBGBGBGB
I want the card to be good, but it doesn't seem to be the case.
The card is basically only good when you're forcing a combo through--and at that point, you may as well be playing Pact of Negation.
Half the combo decks still can't play counters because they play LED, and the other half can already play a card that is only good on your combo turn--this spell basically only has the upside not killing you immediately like a Pact would if you end up being forced into casting it on a turn when you're not winning.
I came here specifically to see if people were justifying Swan Song.
AND YOU ARE!
Shame. What combo deck could possibly want this? You gonna side it in against all those decks that have Enchantments and Sorceries that stop your combo? What are these cards you would rather give them a 2/2 Flier to beat you with rather then have the spell resolve?
+1, I know right?
When there are a lot of cards that have a Legacy impact, we're treated to complaints that the format is unrecognizable or that Wizards is pushing X or Y strategy, as a result some beloved archetype or pet deck is going the way of the Dodo bird.
There's such a thread on the subject of Prison decks already.
It's the Internet. Moaners gonna moan. Far as I'm concerned, the format is pretty cool right now as-is. Any big shakeup is more likely to come from an unbanning than a new card IMHO.
Overall record: 139-98-15
Total number of matches: 252
Win percentage ignoring draws: 58.649789
Win percentage including draws: 55.158730
We've had so many new Legacy cards in the last 3 years, we need a break *phew*
I think ~2 playables in a set sounds about right when you think of it like that. And if those playables aren't as impactful as what we've been getting lately (some of the format's most warping strategies have come out of the past couple years), I'm more than okay with that.
Fleecemane lion is not legacy playable. Watchwolf hasn't been good enough for years due to power creep. As for that 5 mana monstrous ability? That doesn't make a card playable. Look at figure of destiny. For one more mana you can make it an 8/8 and before that it's a 4/4 on turn 3. Sure a 5/5 indestructible hexproof is good, but costing 7 to get that is not so good. And even if that is achieved, it still dies to liliana of the veil. Not to mention stifle turns into time walk against it.
Heliod can be played in enchantress as it stands. But it doesn't help the deck in any significant way; it's basically centaur glade that works well with serra's sanctum, and that's not what enchantress needs. Agreed with the boggle idea, if you want aggro enchantress build boggles/hexproof.dec with the best aura's in the game like daybreak coronet, unflinching courage, rancor, etc. etc.
Currently Playing:
Retired
Lightning Strike looks ok but its still no bolt and never will be.
Ashiok is ok only cause of the 3 cmc.
Underworld Cerberus is intresting to say the least.
Xenagos i like but thats about it, not legacy playable.
Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx, could be a new lotus of sorts imo, get this land, wish it helped artifacts.
Temples suck.
Decks I play and stuff.
Legacy Burn
Modern Mono U Tron
As an enchantress player I wouldn't dream of running it. The tempo loss is huge and the tutor effect is far too limited. I'd sooner run Enlightened Tutor.
https://fieldmarshalshandbook.wordpress.com/
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UBR EDH Artificer Prodigy
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There's a difference between "game-breaking" and playable.
Jace, the Mindsculptor, Delver Of secrets, Deathrite Shaman, etc have had profound effects on Legacy; shifting the meta and even creating new archetypes. Very few people want to see this happening often.
Then there are cards like Sigil Of The Empty Throne, Master Of The Pearl Trident, Cavern Of Souls, Past In Flames, Craterhoof Behemoth, Faithless Lootinng, etc which do not shake up the meta but do give a little boost to a couple decks.
This last group of cards is what Legacy players like to see. Not necessarily a lot at once, but one or two in any given set. In fact a reasonable case could be made that any set without at least one such card is
total garbagenot a very good set.Theros was particularly promising being the "enchantment block". We've been starved for decent enchantments lately (mostly from Newb world order forward) as enchantments have lost much design space to hate-bears and walkers. Can you blame people for being disappointed when we see nothing good?
Also there was obviously much hope on the part of enchantress players. The last time we had an artifact block (New Mirrodin) artifact decks got tonnes of new toys! Nothing "game breaking" - these decks are hardly tier one - but lots to play with. For an enchantment block to seemingly give nothing at all to enchantment decks is quite a let down by comparison. Can you blame enchantress players for being a bit disappointed?
https://fieldmarshalshandbook.wordpress.com/
RUGLegacy Lands.dec
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UBR EDH Artificer Prodigy
B EDH Relentless Rats
Current decks of choice:
Vintage: Shops.
Legacy: Lands.
Modern: Lantern.
https://fieldmarshalshandbook.wordpress.com/
RUGLegacy Lands.dec
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UBR EDH Artificer Prodigy
B EDH Relentless Rats
Current decks of choice:
Vintage: Shops.
Legacy: Lands.
Modern: Lantern.
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/legacy-type-1-5/661941-list-of-stores-that-support-legacy
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?28892-Compilation-Of-Legacy-Streams
Yes, I would say.
Any Dredge decks currently running Angel of Despair in the board will be switching up.
https://fieldmarshalshandbook.wordpress.com/
RUGLegacy Lands.dec
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UBR EDH Artificer Prodigy
B EDH Relentless Rats
"If there is such a thing as too much power, I have not discovered it."
--Volrath
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i think it is to much mana,though it could be in board to kill jace in stuff like the rack or pox
Shout out to commandercast for keeping me entertained.
I think Hero's Downfall will definitely become a board card for Monoblack Pox. It does two things Pox wants done.
really what it comes down to is a 1 cmc stall card like pithing needle still better then a straight up answer at instant speed.
"If there is such a thing as too much power, I have not discovered it."
--Volrath
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one of the decks soft spots though is efficient answers for man lands and planeswalkers, i can stall with a pithing needle but i usually get a abrupt decay in response and at that point the game swings in the opponents favor. being able to pilot around the more evasive permanents like lands and planeswalkers would really bring this deck up a notch. but 1BB is still alot.
TLDR i wasn't really considering this a good card for more then a 2 color deck. but if it is a good card for a 2 color deck could we see a surge in these types of decks over things like loam and Blue/BUG based tempo/control decks
"If there is such a thing as too much power, I have not discovered it."
--Volrath
BGBGBGBGBGBGBGBGBGBGBGB
this card will probably find a home in B/and mono B decks only. i doubt it will find a home in other 3 color decks as well since those tend to be more on a aggro clock rather then a control clock. so this card is niche the real question is it efficient enough at 1BB for the decks where it is worth considering.
i could see this as a strong option if you can find a way to 2 for 1 with it such as hitting this with cascade from bloodbraid elf.
what ever the outcome black really needs this card, the only problem now is that blacks engine is still too slow to make use of it efficiently outside of standard and the negative card advantage of dark ritual.
now if black got a creature that could tutor it trinket mage style that could be the begining of something interesting, of course it would need some restrictions such as none blue instant whose mana cost is equal to or less then 3........ something along those lines
"If there is such a thing as too much power, I have not discovered it."
--Volrath
BGBGBGBGBGBGBGBGBGBGBGB
My comment was directed towards BUG decks that run Jace and Liliana, be it Shardless BUG or some variant on classic BUG Control.
They value a card like FoW very differently than something very heavily tempo driven like Team America, and as such they are going to side out FoW in the pseudo mirror match (and basically against any deck doing fair things) because losing two cards, especially when one of those cards you are losing is something like Brainstorm or Jace, is just bad in those matchups. They also don't run Daze to begin with as it's just not something that fits their gameplan of a strong mid to lategame. As far as countermagic that is good in the pseudo mirror you have Counterspell actually being very solid, and Spell Pierce and Spell Snare being decent. Shardless BUG can't play them because of deck constraints, and BUG Control only has room for so many of those cards (not that Spell Snare is relevant when it comes to Jace or Liliana). Discard can hit them preemptively but doesn't do anything to stop their ability to topdeck or cantrip their way into a Planeswalker.
Up until now, this didn't matter all that much because you just had Maelstrom Pulse to fall back on, but Maelstrom Pulse loses value because you can and will run into situations where you both have a Jace out and you can't deal with just theirs. Pithing Needle is in a similar position to Maelstrom Pulse, in that you can't just hit their Jace or Liliana. It's either both players get Jace or nobody gets Jace.
So the fact that this hits their walkers no questions asked at instant speed while also hitting anything from Delver to Griselbrand... I just can't see this not being played in BUG for the reasons I listed. Will every BUG player play it? No... but it's certainly a card to look at when you expect the metagame to be Jace heavy and need a way to get the leg up on them.
"If there is such a thing as too much power, I have not discovered it."
--Volrath
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I think Spell Pierce does it better.
Modern
WUBRG
The card is basically only good when you're forcing a combo through--and at that point, you may as well be playing Pact of Negation.
Half the combo decks still can't play counters because they play LED, and the other half can already play a card that is only good on your combo turn--this spell basically only has the upside not killing you immediately like a Pact would if you end up being forced into casting it on a turn when you're not winning.
AND YOU ARE!
Shame. What combo deck could possibly want this? You gonna side it in against all those decks that have Enchantments and Sorceries that stop your combo? What are these cards you would rather give them a 2/2 Flier to beat you with rather then have the spell resolve?
I'm at a loss really.
Thanks to Heroes of the Plane Studios for the amazing sig.
NO RUG: Primer
Tempo Thresh: Primer