He dies to more readily played removal, cannot win off a top deck, cannot hold back Goblins or Merfolk in the slightest.
He dies to removal easier but the rest just isn't true. Firstly, in any tempo shell, RUG, Grixis, U/R, RUG - Lord of Atlantis > Tarmogoyf // Young Pyromancer.
Secondly, how is having more blockers worse than having less blockers? Sure goyf can take out one attacking Goblin, but ask goblin player if they really care. They're just going to vial in another lord and drop a ringleader next turn anyway.
Which creatures in legacy "win" off of a top deck? If that means anything then Delver is a worse top deck than Young Pyromancer.
Which creatures in legacy "win" off of a top deck? If that means anything then Delver is a worse top deck than Young Pyromancer.
stoneforge can be a game changer, windmill slam into a tutor; depending on the stage of the game, that you can hardcast into a 4/4 life link vigilance?
tarmogoyf can slam down as a 5/6 or 6/7, which can be a devastating play to your opponent, making them rethink a whole lot.
confidant, not so much, he simply helps ramp you back into the game by accelerating your CA
snapcaster mage is graveyard dependant and a mana hog, so i dont see him as quite as good a top deck, or an amazing top deck, depending on the game, your opponent, etc.
i dont think yp is bad, i just dont like to see him knee jerk reacted to be as good as these big 4. if you want to compare him to delver, thats something im much more willing to accept as a power compare
He's not at all in the same league as Delver of Secrets due to his mana cost. I don't see the point of getting started with cross-CMC comparisons, we'll never get anywhere with that.
Imposing Sovereign looks like the only "new" card with any potential, the rest are just "meh". This guy though, I wonder what the Death and Taxes players are considering & if they're testing him at all, though I don't know D & T decks enough to actually know the answer as to whether or not, this guy will see play in it.
As a D&T player, I see it as more of a card for standard. The ability just isnt that relevant without good haste creatures. D&T already has ways to ensure their attackers connect, such as removal, Jitte, Mom, etc. The only situation where I might want it is against Goblins, to stop them from swinging with hasted Piledrivers.
It might have a chance in WW variants with MD Meekstone, but that's going pretty deep.
I have heard vague rumors of a moustache-dispensing vending machine in a distant laundromat, across the street from a tattoo parlor. However, this information is shaky, and time is of the essence.
Well, I think the ideal situation for a DnT player with this card would be vs. Elves, on the off chance that the white deck is going first and will be able to deploy the Imposing Sovereign before the shenanigans starts.
Even in that case I'd rather have a Gut Shot, which is useful on the draw as well. The weakness of Sovereign is that he doesn't do enough against any of the fair decks and he's too narrow/slow against the combo field.
If I could get this effect for a 1 mana creature, though, I'd sleeve it up in a heartbeat.
stoneforge can be a game changer, windmill slam into a tutor; depending on the stage of the game, that you can hardcast into a 4/4 life link vigilance?
tarmogoyf can slam down as a 5/6 or 6/7, which can be a devastating play to your opponent, making them rethink a whole lot.
confidant, not so much, he simply helps ramp you back into the game by accelerating your CA
snapcaster mage is graveyard dependant and a mana hog, so i dont see him as quite as good a top deck, or an amazing top deck, depending on the game, your opponent, etc.
i dont think yp is bad, i just dont like to see him knee jerk reacted to be as good as these big 4. if you want to compare him to delver, thats something im much more willing to accept as a power compare
I don't think he's that great either, I just disagreed with that particular analysis.
He dies to removal easier but the rest just isn't true. Firstly, in any tempo shell, RUG, Grixis, U/R, RUG - Lord of Atlantis > Tarmogoyf // Young Pyromancer.
I assume you mean BUG for either the 1st or 2nd time you put RUG, unless your just the emphatic about comparing it in a RUG shell.
Anyways, yes, if your on the defensive, LoA is better than both of these guys if you're playing a Tempo shell. But how about on the offensive? What if they have a different lodr that isn't LoA. Would you attack into a Merfolk player with YP? Would you do it with Goyf? I'm willing to bet I know both answers to those questions.
Secondly, how is having more blockers worse than having less blockers? Sure goyf can take out one attacking Goblin, but ask goblin player if they really care. They're just going to vial in another lord and drop a ringleader next turn anyway.
Name me 3 creatures in Goblins that a YP token can block profitably. Hell, what creature in Goblins can YP block profitably?
I've won hands playing RUG against Goblins with Goyf because Goyf can attack head strong into Goblins without having to worry about much, and block if need be. YP and his tokens cannot do that.
Which creatures in legacy "win" off of a top deck? If that means anything then Delver is a worse top deck than Young Pyromancer.
Delver is a worse top deck that YP. However, which one is stronger at the beginning of the game? By the time YP can even attack and make tokens, Delver has dealt 6 damage, so it kind of weighs out the bad top deck later in the game.
Also, and I want to say this, I did not make these comparisons, especially to Delver, who is MUCH better.
I said the card was good, but not any where near the power level of the other 4, now 5, creatures mentioned.
His best spot is in U/R Delver, and even then I would take Grim Lavamancer and Goblin Guide over him for Red creatures.
I assume you mean BUG for either the 1st or 2nd time you put RUG, unless your just the emphatic about comparing it in a RUG shell.
Anyways, yes, if your on the defensive, LoA is better than both of these guys if you're playing a Tempo shell. But how about on the offensive? What if they have a different lodr that isn't LoA. Would you attack into a Merfolk player with YP? Would you do it with Goyf? I'm willing to bet I know both answers to those questions.
Name me 3 creatures in Goblins that a YP token can block profitably. Hell, what creature in Goblins can YP block profitably?
I've won hands playing RUG against Goblins with Goyf because Goyf can attack head strong into Goblins without having to worry about much, and block if need be. YP and his tokens cannot do that.
Delver is a worse top deck that YP. However, which one is stronger at the beginning of the game? By the time YP can even attack and make tokens, Delver has dealt 6 damage, so it kind of weighs out the bad top deck later in the game.
Also, and I want to say this, I did not make these comparisons, especially to Delver, who is MUCH better.
I said the card was good, but not any where near the power level of the other 4, now 5, creatures mentioned.
His best spot is in U/R Delver, and even then I would take Grim Lavamancer and Goblin Guide over him for Red creatures.
I'm not arguing about any of this. I was just disputing your criticism of YP's ability to block Merfolk and Goblins, and his usefulness as a top deck in comparison to other creatures. Nowhere do I mention that he's on the level of Snapcaster Mage or Stoneforge Mystic etc.
I don't even think he's that good. The lack of haste from the tokens and the weak 2/1 body is nowhere near the power level needed to be considered an auto include card in any legacy deck, let alone to be considered as the "5th" 2 drop creature in the cycle - hence why its an uncommon.
I'm not arguing about any of this. I was just disputing your criticism of YP's ability to block Merfolk and Goblins, and his usefulness as a top deck in comparison to other creatures. Nowhere do I mention that he's on the level of Snapcaster Mage or Stoneforge Mystic etc.
I don't even think he's that good. The lack of haste from the tokens and the weak 2/1 body is nowhere near the power level needed to be considered an auto include card in any legacy deck, let alone to be considered as the "5th" 2 drop creature in the cycle - hence why its an uncommon.
In every deck I've tried him (mostly SFM variants and U/R Delver), he's almost always given me at least +2/+1 more power/toughness than Goyf did. Of course the power/toughness is split-up but that works really well with SFM/equipment and is why Lingering Souls has made an impact in Legacy. Before those screaming... but there's no evasion (!)... no, but you are investing a total of 1R into a 2/1 token generating monster in a HUGE % of competitive Legacy decks.
Highly recommend trying the card before giving very detailed analysis or pronouncing him significantly worse/different than those other 4 2cc bombs. Like Goyf, Young Pyromancer rewards you for playing Magic in almost all Legacy lists being they're full of Instants/Sorceries. Coming from someone who has a bit of experience, he's damn good and in the class of Goyf/SFM/Snapcaster/Confidant or very, very close. The question is how many are willing to play/splash Red and does Young Pyromancer work very well (or better than say, Goyf) outside of all the Stoneforge Mystic decks.
It's an instant speed 5/5 trampler for 4. Wtf do you people want seriously? It has applications in populate/ above the curve beats decks, or in Bant control/ flash. I seriously think anyone mad at this card for any reason other than losing an attacker to instant speed wurm, should go home and make their own awesome card game and leave the rest of us alone.
In every deck I've tried him (mostly SFM variants and U/R Delver), he's almost always given me at least +2/+1 more power/toughness than Goyf did. Of course the power/toughness is split-up but that works really well with SFM/equipment and is why Lingering Souls has made an impact in Legacy. Before those screaming... but there's no evasion (!)... no, but you are investing a total of 1R into a 2/1 token generating monster in a HUGE % of competitive Legacy decks.
Highly recommend trying the card before giving very detailed analysis or pronouncing him significantly worse/different than those other 4 2cc bombs. Like Goyf, Young Pyromancer rewards you for playing Magic in almost all Legacy lists being they're full of Instants/Sorceries. Coming from someone who has a bit of experience, he's damn good and in the class of Goyf/SFM/Snapcaster/Confidant or very, very close. The question is how many are willing to play/splash Red and does Young Pyromancer work very well (or better than say, Goyf) outside of all the Stoneforge Mystic decks.
That is what I am saying. He's really really good. Sure he could be better like the tokens could have haste or he could have evasion or something stupid. But for what he is, he is very very strong.
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ActionJunkie, I doubt your YP results in Stoneblade. I tried him in BWR Stoneblade and he consistently produced only 1 token per game for me in an 18-instant/sorcery deck. Heck, Chandra, Pyromaster consistently felt like a significantly higher-impact card in my deck because she was a draw engine that killed some stuff (but being 4 cmc means that she was often as much of a flaming turd as Jace TMS or Elspeth 1.0 would have been).
He really needs to be in very heavy instant/sorcery deck. Similar numbers that you see in Delver decks, so think 25 and upwards for it to be worth playing. I think the fact that Legacy has the ability to run cantrip engines, and that YP actually gives you board position for casting cantrips every turn and potentially casting multiple cantrips in a single turn is what makes him playable. Where exactly he will see play is yet to be seen, but I doubt it will be in more creature heavy decks like Team Italia or Walking Dead like I've seen suggested here and there; they just don't have the instant/sorcery count needed to support him without significant rebuilding of the decks. Tempo decks can support him as is, but his raw powerlevel isn't quite high enough for them I suspect - I mean why play YP when Goyf just is so much more efficient at what a tempo deck is aiming to do?. Rather I think you need to build upon synergy with him, while still supporting a high enough instant/sorcery count which isn't exactly easy to tackle as it may seem.
He really needs to be in very heavy instant/sorcery deck. Similar numbers that you see in Delver decks, so think 25 and upwards for it to be worth playing. I think the fact that Legacy has the ability to run cantrip engines, and that YP actually gives you board position for casting cantrips every turn and potentially casting multiple cantrips in a single turn is what makes him playable. Where exactly he will see play is yet to be seen, but I doubt it will be in more creature heavy decks like Team Italia or Walking Dead like I've seen suggested here and there; they just don't have the instant/sorcery count needed to support him without significant rebuilding of the decks. Tempo decks can support him as is, but his raw powerlevel isn't quite high enough for them I suspect - I mean why play YP when Goyf just is so much more efficient at what a tempo deck is aiming to do?. Rather I think you need to build upon synergy with him, while still supporting a high enough instant/sorcery count which isn't exactly easy to tackle as it may seem.
Sounds like he should go in U/R Delver, like I already suggested in this thread.
However in that same post I said I would bother replacing Grim Lavamancer or Goblin Guide with him.
In a burn deck that does not run Fetches for fuel, he might find a place instead of Grim. But then we are talking budget sub optimal deck lists, not the strength of young.
I have been helping a friend playtest his list he is trying to build to optimally abuse pyromancer and it is incredible. The only matchups I feel good going into is when I am testing UW control against him. Everything else is about 50/50 or worse. I have yet to test a super aggressive deck against it, like goblins, but YP has a lot of potential.
I've heard mixed reactions so far... but the bottom line is he we're not going to know precisely how good he is until people test him out in competitive play, namely SCGO. I love Cockatrice as much as the next guy, but it simply isn't a reliable proving ground for a new card.
YP is looking better and better in Grixis Thresh. His token-making ability dodging Chalice of the Void and making Daze relevant late-game has been pretty good. (Well, my cantrips don't work, my Stifles are pretty conditional token-makers that still don't work, and Bolt won't work again, but at least they make tokens!)
I'm trying YP out in various Miracle Gro shells. It's been... Interesting so far.
The basic issue is that you need spells and mana to make him good. So it's a pretty bad late topdeck, which is why I don't think decks like Team Italia want him.
I do think he has a home in the UWR Control decks, though. With or without Delver.
I have heard vague rumors of a moustache-dispensing vending machine in a distant laundromat, across the street from a tattoo parlor. However, this information is shaky, and time is of the essence.
I've tried it (just random testing) in U/R Delver and it seems good, but its a horrible top deck. Playing it early gets the most value for him but sometimes hurts your tempo as you are tapped out turn 2 and did no damage that turn.
Young Pyromancer is good in RUG especially in the mirror. Honestly it provides virtual card advantage and a quick clock. It turns every can trip into a free 1/1. Sure its not as big as goyf without a hand full of spells but with the amount of graveyard hate floating around it may just be better in your local meta.
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He dies to removal easier but the rest just isn't true. Firstly, in any tempo shell, RUG, Grixis, U/R, RUG - Lord of Atlantis > Tarmogoyf // Young Pyromancer.
Secondly, how is having more blockers worse than having less blockers? Sure goyf can take out one attacking Goblin, but ask goblin player if they really care. They're just going to vial in another lord and drop a ringleader next turn anyway.
Which creatures in legacy "win" off of a top deck? If that means anything then Delver is a worse top deck than Young Pyromancer.
Legacy Burn
NO Combo Elves
Reanimator
Trades
Burn Primer
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stoneforge can be a game changer, windmill slam into a tutor; depending on the stage of the game, that you can hardcast into a 4/4 life link vigilance?
tarmogoyf can slam down as a 5/6 or 6/7, which can be a devastating play to your opponent, making them rethink a whole lot.
confidant, not so much, he simply helps ramp you back into the game by accelerating your CA
snapcaster mage is graveyard dependant and a mana hog, so i dont see him as quite as good a top deck, or an amazing top deck, depending on the game, your opponent, etc.
i dont think yp is bad, i just dont like to see him knee jerk reacted to be as good as these big 4. if you want to compare him to delver, thats something im much more willing to accept as a power compare
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Thor, Ragnar Röks!
Hela, and the Enemies of Asgard
Teferi, Temporal Archmage
Overall record: 139-98-15
Total number of matches: 252
Win percentage ignoring draws: 58.649789
Win percentage including draws: 55.158730
As a D&T player, I see it as more of a card for standard. The ability just isnt that relevant without good haste creatures. D&T already has ways to ensure their attackers connect, such as removal, Jitte, Mom, etc. The only situation where I might want it is against Goblins, to stop them from swinging with hasted Piledrivers.
It might have a chance in WW variants with MD Meekstone, but that's going pretty deep.
Even in that case I'd rather have a Gut Shot, which is useful on the draw as well. The weakness of Sovereign is that he doesn't do enough against any of the fair decks and he's too narrow/slow against the combo field.
If I could get this effect for a 1 mana creature, though, I'd sleeve it up in a heartbeat.
Overall record: 139-98-15
Total number of matches: 252
Win percentage ignoring draws: 58.649789
Win percentage including draws: 55.158730
I don't think he's that great either, I just disagreed with that particular analysis.
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I assume you mean BUG for either the 1st or 2nd time you put RUG, unless your just the emphatic about comparing it in a RUG shell.
Anyways, yes, if your on the defensive, LoA is better than both of these guys if you're playing a Tempo shell. But how about on the offensive? What if they have a different lodr that isn't LoA. Would you attack into a Merfolk player with YP? Would you do it with Goyf? I'm willing to bet I know both answers to those questions.
Name me 3 creatures in Goblins that a YP token can block profitably. Hell, what creature in Goblins can YP block profitably?
I've won hands playing RUG against Goblins with Goyf because Goyf can attack head strong into Goblins without having to worry about much, and block if need be. YP and his tokens cannot do that.
Delver is a worse top deck that YP. However, which one is stronger at the beginning of the game? By the time YP can even attack and make tokens, Delver has dealt 6 damage, so it kind of weighs out the bad top deck later in the game.
Also, and I want to say this, I did not make these comparisons, especially to Delver, who is MUCH better.
I said the card was good, but not any where near the power level of the other 4, now 5, creatures mentioned.
His best spot is in U/R Delver, and even then I would take Grim Lavamancer and Goblin Guide over him for Red creatures.
Thanks to Heroes of the Plane Studios for the amazing sig.
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Now all YP needs to do is not die to Goblin Sharpshooter...
I'm not arguing about any of this. I was just disputing your criticism of YP's ability to block Merfolk and Goblins, and his usefulness as a top deck in comparison to other creatures. Nowhere do I mention that he's on the level of Snapcaster Mage or Stoneforge Mystic etc.
I don't even think he's that good. The lack of haste from the tokens and the weak 2/1 body is nowhere near the power level needed to be considered an auto include card in any legacy deck, let alone to be considered as the "5th" 2 drop creature in the cycle - hence why its an uncommon.
Legacy Burn
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Hmmm... have most of you actually tried Young Pyromancer?
In every deck I've tried him (mostly SFM variants and U/R Delver), he's almost always given me at least +2/+1 more power/toughness than Goyf did. Of course the power/toughness is split-up but that works really well with SFM/equipment and is why Lingering Souls has made an impact in Legacy. Before those screaming... but there's no evasion (!)... no, but you are investing a total of 1R into a 2/1 token generating monster in a HUGE % of competitive Legacy decks.
Highly recommend trying the card before giving very detailed analysis or pronouncing him significantly worse/different than those other 4 2cc bombs. Like Goyf, Young Pyromancer rewards you for playing Magic in almost all Legacy lists being they're full of Instants/Sorceries. Coming from someone who has a bit of experience, he's damn good and in the class of Goyf/SFM/Snapcaster/Confidant or very, very close. The question is how many are willing to play/splash Red and does Young Pyromancer work very well (or better than say, Goyf) outside of all the Stoneforge Mystic decks.
That is what I am saying. He's really really good. Sure he could be better like the tokens could have haste or he could have evasion or something stupid. But for what he is, he is very very strong.
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FYI, I believe my I/S suite was this:
Heck, I tried YP for a bit in Modern Zoo with 20 I/S's, and he consistently produced only 1 token per game for me again.
Sounds like he should go in U/R Delver, like I already suggested in this thread.
However in that same post I said I would bother replacing Grim Lavamancer or Goblin Guide with him.
Thanks to Heroes of the Plane Studios for the amazing sig.
NO RUG: Primer
Tempo Thresh: Primer
Current decks of choice:
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Legacy: Lands.
Modern: Lantern.
Legacy Burn
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:symg:Free Gaea's Cradle:symg:
The basic issue is that you need spells and mana to make him good. So it's a pretty bad late topdeck, which is why I don't think decks like Team Italia want him.
I do think he has a home in the UWR Control decks, though. With or without Delver.
As opposed to yours, it also has Wasteland, Dismember and Daze, and doesn't have Bitterblossom, Thoughtseize, Cabal Therapy, Abrupt Decay and Jace, the Mind Sculptor.
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/legacy-type-1-5/661941-list-of-stores-that-support-legacy
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?28892-Compilation-Of-Legacy-Streams
a program of a slightly different strain.
Tonight my listeners, a new power will rise,
unleashed upon you all in this musical disguise.
Your cities turn to ash, for the broadcast is cursed.
The signal is peaking and can't be reversed.
If you choose my children, you can try to hide.
But I strongly suggest you run for your life."
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