yeah Enter The Infinite, my mind bursted with ways to abuse this cards after I read it, I can see it as a one of in Spiral Tide as drawing your deck for 12 is cheaper than Blue Sun's to draw your deck
So wizards finally made a spell that said "you win the game". I like how they actually succeeded in topping omniscience in ridiculousness. And that they made it blue, once again.
Would it be worth it to play a copy in the main of omnitell and then a set of personal tutors?
Possibly. I've seen some lists running personal tutor for Show and Tell, but the better one seems to be 3 Show and Tell maindeck'ed with Burning Wish main and one in the side. You can then put a copy in the board as a wish target, but is it really better than petals of insight?
I like the High Tide Idea. It saves a lot of time, and you can time spiral it all back in when you're done.
How is it not better than petals? With petals, you can tutor for any three cards in your deck. With this, you can tutor for every single card in your deck.
What would you win with? Emrakul and Grizzy? What if they have a humility or ensnaring bridge in play? Petals lets you storm out into a win. I suppose you could storm out with this card too, but that seems... weird.
Maindeck a bunch of bounce. Cast your wishes for answers. You have everything in your hand.
And if you want to storm, you got your entire deck in your hand and all your spells are free. There is no easier way to get storm.
No show and tell deck maindecks bounce spells as far as I know. They want their combo to be as streamlined and protected as possible. I'm not saying this spell is bad, I'm just putting some points out there.
The card is impressive, I'm somewhat surprised they had the gumption to print it directly after Omniscience. SnT came to mind when I saw it, though I doubt it's the kind of card one jams into a streamlined combo list to get an improvement.
I haven't been keeping up with Omnitell, what do I know. I thought Omniscience itself was overkill, and didn't think it would make it in over Sneak Attack. Oops.
What about that 3 mana planeswalker? Though in RG she seems to be card without a deck, 3 mana is worthy of consideration for a Walker, I'd say. Her +1 is a strong ability, particularly in a format with fetches, Sylvan Library, Mirri's Guile, Divining Top, and Green Sun's Zenith. Her removal ability is fairly weak, but not entirely useless. The -7 is totally irrelevant. That +1, though, is just exactly what I'd want to have on a Walker if a certain evildoer on the other side of the table kept trying to Terminus away all my pretties. Even just the information of what the top card is rather valuable when one has the choice to shuffle or not, maybe with Jace over there Fatesealing stuff.
Why, oh why couldn't she have been the first Goblin Planeswalker? That would be wicked!
That was the deck I am brewing with atm for the new walker I already play Garruk Relentless and Elspeth, Knight Errant in Zoo going to see, this new guy will fit nicely
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It looks that way, but in reality the card doesn't really fit. The -2 is redundant since Zoo already runs 12+ removal spells and the ultimate is almost never going to go off. And even if it did, if the game has gone this long for you to ultimate, Zoo has probably already lost.
That leaves the +1, which is nice, but is it really worth diluting your deck over? Zoo is all about consistency and overloading in efficient creatures and the best removal. Why add 2, 3 or even 4 of a Planeswalker that doesn't do the most important thing for Zoo, kill the opponent? Yes, it helps you find creatures, but why not just run more CMC efficient creatures instead? I could see why some mid-range Zoo decks ran Elspeth since she generated tokens and jumped your guys for (hopefully) lethal damage, but this planeswalker does neither. I think I'd rather have more dudes (that cost < 3) than this Planeswalker.
I really hope I'm wrong since Zoo is my pet deck and it's been bad for a long time, but I don't think this is what Zoo needs. What Zoo needs is something to get past the 8+ StP effects (with Snapcaster) or Terminus that many decks are running. Oh and then there's that whole Combo archetype. Like I said though, I hope I'm wrong since Zoo could use a bone here and there. However, I'd much rather see Wizards print the missing red two drop and have it fit perfectly in Zoo, but that's just wishful thinking.
If they don't counter Domri, they are in such a bad way...
I see him in a Jund deck too, a mid-range deck where he'll be great with Liliana of the Veil, tutoring creatures after the discard phase and destroying creatures before Liliana deals with the annoying ones.
Sensei's Divining Top and Sylvan Library certainly help Domri Rade's case in Legacy Jund, but how often can we make him he flip creatures in that deck, and how many cards do we have to take out for Domri, enough creatures, and maybe Top effects? I've tested a Legacy Jund deck with 20 creatures, 3 Tops, 3 Domri, and 8 discard spells (and yes, Domri flipped creatures a fair amount of the time with Top active), but in exchange, I had to take out removal, then make some of my creatures suboptimal to get the removal back (put it this way: I'm trying out 2 Gatekeeper of Malakir in a 3-coloured deck).
Unfortunately, it tends to lose to Maverick more often than it should because it forgot its removal (2 Abrupt Decay 1 Jitte may not be enough). I am seriously considering pulling out the 4 Deathrite Shaman 4 Bloodbraid Elf package to fit Grim Lavamancer and other creatures in, but beyond Lavamancer and sticking in the remaining Scavenging Oozes (the deck already has 4 Bob 4 Goyf), what are good Jund-coloured creatures? (Well, maybe Eternal Witness...)
Not true, I can see high tide using the card to great success.
Also, on a different note than that of hard casting it, This card completely replaces Conflux in Dream Halls combo, which is interesting.
So High Tide casts this when it's at the 15-mana or 20-mana range, then tries for enough Storm for Brain Freeze...then suddenly realizes it can cast only one card that says "Draw a card" on it and finds it can't cast Meditate afterwards.
Screw it, can we guarantee a 60+ card Blue Sun's Zenith with Enter the Infinite?
...Okay, fine, it can cast Time Spiral afterwards, and that will probably affect things in Enter the Infinite's favour. Is it more win-more than Mind over Matter or Palinchron, though?
It's true that Enter the Infinite does replace Conflux in Dream Halls, but if you want any win con you want afterwards, you still need 4 Progenitus in the deck unless you can get away with Cunning Wishing for Beacon of Immortality-False Cure. Even then, you still need a Progenitus or Conflux to cast the Beacon.
...Actually, the Cunning Wish route does remove two weaknesses of Dream Halls (dead cards maindeck and needing the worst Show and Tell fatty that's still playable), while still not removing its last weakness (Dream Halls combos with fewer cards than Omniscience does, and Enter the Infinite combos with fewer cards than Omni's Burning Wish). Maybe Dream Halls might come back?
Also, black splash versions just got better because they can potentially cast Griselbrand post-Dream Halls. Interesting, I'm shaking up my Dream Halls deck again...
I am far from a storm combo specialist but can't Enter the Infinite be used along with Show and Tell and Omniscience in order to fuel a new type of Cheerios storm combo deck? Like, cast all your zero dudes that you just got to your hand, then cast a lethal Tendrils of Agony/Grapeshot for the win. The deck can protect it's combo with counterspells and dodges Humility and Karakas like a boss.
I am far from a storm combo specialist but can't Enter the Infinite be used along with Show and Tell and Omniscience in order to fuel a new type of Cheerios storm combo deck? Like, cast all your zero dudes that you just got to your hand, then cast a lethal Tendrils of Agony/Grapeshot for the win. The deck can protect it's combo with counterspells and dodges Humility and Karakas like a boss.
Maybe I am missing something though.
Takes up more deck space and is more risky than than petals of insight kill. You can't cast cantrips after resolving because you deck yourself and you still need to cast enough spells for lethal grapeshot - heaven forbid your opponent has gained some life this game too. Petals kills to any life total and takes up fewer slots dedicated to the actual kill.
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Enter the infinite is a hilarious card, and as for attaining storm post enter the infinite it isn't remotely hard when you draw your whole deck. If you can't figure out how to count to 9 or 19, I'm sorry. You could also just sparkcaster the opponent out post enter the infinite, as that card just kills the opponent. Either way, interested in where enter the infinite shows up.
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"Yawgmoth," Freyalise whispered as she set the bomb, "now you will pay for your treachery."
As for Enter the Infinite replacing Petals of Insight in Legacy Omniscience, it probably can't generate infinite Storm in practice, but in testing with a multiple Emrakul and multiple Enter the Infinite chain, it can create absurd enough Storm for a Grapeshot at least a fair bit of the time.
Okay, challenge based on a post I made earlier in New Card Discussion:
Can you create an infinite Storm loop involving Enter the Infinite?
Assume you have Omniscience on the battlefield and Enter the Infinite in hand. Also assume there is nothing left in your graveyard and you play 3 Emrakuls, 4 Ponders, 4 Intuitions, and 4 Brainstorms (just in case). You may assume you play 1 Griselbrand but you are at 6 life or less (so you can't use his Draw 7 anymore).
My current best attempts to create such a loop involve playing double Emrakul, shuffling my graveyard and the Emrakuls into my library, digging through my library for two Emrakuls and/or Enter the Infinite again, and repeating. Sadly, my post-double Emrakul deck size keeps staying the same or increasing, and I'm not sure I can freeze the deck size.
I've been floundering around on Cockatrice trying to create such a loop; I am consistently generating 30+ Storm and somehow consistently getting over the Enter the Infinite loop's initial post-double Emrakul deck size hump, but I still can't figure out if I'll be dinged for slow play or not. Can anyone help me?
(This loop seems more resilient to permanents that need to be bounced and maybe more resilient to counterspells and Stifle, but it seems awfully Extirpate-weak, and a resolved Scavenging Ooze or Relic of Progenitus can disrupt it.)
@Lectrys - first, I cast Enter the Infinite with Omniscience, putting back Griselbrand. Then I cast the Petals of Insight I drew an infinite number of times.
Ta-da.
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That's probably the most elegant solution I've heard so far (put one Top back, keep looping Tops). I guess I should also put in the restriction that you can't play Petals of Insight (I'm trying to figure out if Enter the Infinite can actually replace it without making the deck suboptimal).
On the other hand, Top suffers from "Dream Halls win con cards" syndrome unless you run 3+ of them--if it gets discarded or countered, you can't use that Enter the Infinite combo anymore.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
In my quest to find win cons in Enter the Infinite black splash Dream Halls without sticking in Progenitus, I've found two more, likely shakier win cons--Neverending Torment (one dead card maindeck, will not work if you have fewer cards in hand than your opponent has cards in his/her library) and Insidious Dreams-Psychic Spiral (will not work if you put fewer cards in your graveyard than your opponent's library size, needs counterspells or bounce to deal with graveyard hate, needs Cunning Wish into Ravenous Trap to deal with milled Emrakuls, Cunning Wish into Opportunity only half-works against 4 milled Progenitus--you almost need to go into Game 2, board in all Leyline of the Voids, and Cunning Wish into Intuition for them if necessary).
I have yet to test them, so I'm not sure how well they actually deck opponents, but finally ditching the darn Progenitus is tempting.
OmniShow runs Burning Wish already right? S&T (Omni), Enter the Infinite, 2x Burning Wish, 2x Tendrils is game. Or just cast Sparkcaster. Why make it more complicated than that?
You have more counterspells in hand then the opponent has cards, so what's the problem?
All right, a little testing against Burn (a deck that tends to run no fetchlands and also runs no card draw or cantrips) shows that the decking-based win cons are not viable (one game had 49 cards in hand vs. 51 cards in Burn's library, another game had 48 cards in the graveyard to Insidious Dreams vs. 50 cards in Burn's library) in Dream Halls. Back to False Beacon, I guess.
A little testing with Omni against the same Burn deck also shows that Enter the Infinite into Neverending Torment will not work for Omni, either (47 cards in hand vs. 51 cards in Burn's library). Back to Petals-Storm spell.
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Similarly, I feel like Dream Halls would be able to abuse it as well.
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Also Laboratory Maniac is a card...
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Possibly. I've seen some lists running personal tutor for Show and Tell, but the better one seems to be 3 Show and Tell maindeck'ed with Burning Wish main and one in the side. You can then put a copy in the board as a wish target, but is it really better than petals of insight?
I like the High Tide Idea. It saves a lot of time, and you can time spiral it all back in when you're done.
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What would you win with? Emrakul and Grizzy? What if they have a humility or ensnaring bridge in play? Petals lets you storm out into a win. I suppose you could storm out with this card too, but that seems... weird.
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No show and tell deck maindecks bounce spells as far as I know. They want their combo to be as streamlined and protected as possible. I'm not saying this spell is bad, I'm just putting some points out there.
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I haven't been keeping up with Omnitell, what do I know. I thought Omniscience itself was overkill, and didn't think it would make it in over Sneak Attack. Oops.
What about that 3 mana planeswalker? Though in RG she seems to be card without a deck, 3 mana is worthy of consideration for a Walker, I'd say. Her +1 is a strong ability, particularly in a format with fetches, Sylvan Library, Mirri's Guile, Divining Top, and Green Sun's Zenith. Her removal ability is fairly weak, but not entirely useless. The -7 is totally irrelevant. That +1, though, is just exactly what I'd want to have on a Walker if a certain evildoer on the other side of the table kept trying to Terminus away all my pretties. Even just the information of what the top card is rather valuable when one has the choice to shuffle or not, maybe with Jace over there Fatesealing stuff.
Why, oh why couldn't she have been the first Goblin Planeswalker? That would be wicked!
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That was my first thought when I saw the new Walker, the -2 + Piledriver =
That was the deck I am brewing with atm for the new walker I already play Garruk Relentless and Elspeth, Knight Errant in Zoo going to see, this new guy will fit nicely
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obviously only way to cast it is cheating it in, wtf
Not true, I can see high tide using the card to great success.
Also, on a different note than that of hard casting it, This card completely replaces Conflux in Dream Halls combo, which is interesting.
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It fits with Niv Mizzet quite well, both functionally and flavourfully.
That, plus what Spooky said
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When sfm was looking degenerate in standard. They printed batterskull to push it over the top.
It looks that way, but in reality the card doesn't really fit. The -2 is redundant since Zoo already runs 12+ removal spells and the ultimate is almost never going to go off. And even if it did, if the game has gone this long for you to ultimate, Zoo has probably already lost.
That leaves the +1, which is nice, but is it really worth diluting your deck over? Zoo is all about consistency and overloading in efficient creatures and the best removal. Why add 2, 3 or even 4 of a Planeswalker that doesn't do the most important thing for Zoo, kill the opponent? Yes, it helps you find creatures, but why not just run more CMC efficient creatures instead? I could see why some mid-range Zoo decks ran Elspeth since she generated tokens and jumped your guys for (hopefully) lethal damage, but this planeswalker does neither. I think I'd rather have more dudes (that cost < 3) than this Planeswalker.
I really hope I'm wrong since Zoo is my pet deck and it's been bad for a long time, but I don't think this is what Zoo needs. What Zoo needs is something to get past the 8+ StP effects (with Snapcaster) or Terminus that many decks are running. Oh and then there's that whole Combo archetype. Like I said though, I hope I'm wrong since Zoo could use a bone here and there. However, I'd much rather see Wizards print the missing red two drop and have it fit perfectly in Zoo, but that's just wishful thinking.
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Sensei's Divining Top and Sylvan Library certainly help Domri Rade's case in Legacy Jund, but how often can we make him he flip creatures in that deck, and how many cards do we have to take out for Domri, enough creatures, and maybe Top effects? I've tested a Legacy Jund deck with 20 creatures, 3 Tops, 3 Domri, and 8 discard spells (and yes, Domri flipped creatures a fair amount of the time with Top active), but in exchange, I had to take out removal, then make some of my creatures suboptimal to get the removal back (put it this way: I'm trying out 2 Gatekeeper of Malakir in a 3-coloured deck).
Unfortunately, it tends to lose to Maverick more often than it should because it forgot its removal (2 Abrupt Decay 1 Jitte may not be enough). I am seriously considering pulling out the 4 Deathrite Shaman 4 Bloodbraid Elf package to fit Grim Lavamancer and other creatures in, but beyond Lavamancer and sticking in the remaining Scavenging Oozes (the deck already has 4 Bob 4 Goyf), what are good Jund-coloured creatures? (Well, maybe Eternal Witness...)
So High Tide casts this when it's at the 15-mana or 20-mana range, then tries for enough Storm for Brain Freeze...then suddenly realizes it can cast only one card that says "Draw a card" on it and finds it can't cast Meditate afterwards.
Screw it, can we guarantee a 60+ card Blue Sun's Zenith with Enter the Infinite?
...Okay, fine, it can cast Time Spiral afterwards, and that will probably affect things in Enter the Infinite's favour. Is it more win-more than Mind over Matter or Palinchron, though?
It's true that Enter the Infinite does replace Conflux in Dream Halls, but if you want any win con you want afterwards, you still need 4 Progenitus in the deck unless you can get away with Cunning Wishing for Beacon of Immortality-False Cure. Even then, you still need a Progenitus or Conflux to cast the Beacon.
...Actually, the Cunning Wish route does remove two weaknesses of Dream Halls (dead cards maindeck and needing the worst Show and Tell fatty that's still playable), while still not removing its last weakness (Dream Halls combos with fewer cards than Omniscience does, and Enter the Infinite combos with fewer cards than Omni's Burning Wish). Maybe Dream Halls might come back?
Also, black splash versions just got better because they can potentially cast Griselbrand post-Dream Halls. Interesting, I'm shaking up my Dream Halls deck again...
Maybe I am missing something though.
I'm not aware of sfm being degenerate until after batterskull. I don't see any of the current cards seeing top tables in legacy play consistently.
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Weirdly, standard has been BAD since JTMS was banned, it hasn't been fun, nor healthy since.
Takes up more deck space and is more risky than than petals of insight kill. You can't cast cantrips after resolving because you deck yourself and you still need to cast enough spells for lethal grapeshot - heaven forbid your opponent has gained some life this game too. Petals kills to any life total and takes up fewer slots dedicated to the actual kill.
Maverick -- Storm
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Okay, challenge based on a post I made earlier in New Card Discussion:
Can you create an infinite Storm loop involving Enter the Infinite?
Assume you have Omniscience on the battlefield and Enter the Infinite in hand. Also assume there is nothing left in your graveyard and you play 3 Emrakuls, 4 Ponders, 4 Intuitions, and 4 Brainstorms (just in case). You may assume you play 1 Griselbrand but you are at 6 life or less (so you can't use his Draw 7 anymore).
My current best attempts to create such a loop involve playing double Emrakul, shuffling my graveyard and the Emrakuls into my library, digging through my library for two Emrakuls and/or Enter the Infinite again, and repeating. Sadly, my post-double Emrakul deck size keeps staying the same or increasing, and I'm not sure I can freeze the deck size.
I've been floundering around on Cockatrice trying to create such a loop; I am consistently generating 30+ Storm and somehow consistently getting over the Enter the Infinite loop's initial post-double Emrakul deck size hump, but I still can't figure out if I'll be dinged for slow play or not. Can anyone help me?
(This loop seems more resilient to permanents that need to be bounced and maybe more resilient to counterspells and Stifle, but it seems awfully Extirpate-weak, and a resolved Scavenging Ooze or Relic of Progenitus can disrupt it.)
Ta-da.
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Maverick -- Storm
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That's probably the most elegant solution I've heard so far (put one Top back, keep looping Tops). I guess I should also put in the restriction that you can't play Petals of Insight (I'm trying to figure out if Enter the Infinite can actually replace it without making the deck suboptimal).
On the other hand, Top suffers from "Dream Halls win con cards" syndrome unless you run 3+ of them--if it gets discarded or countered, you can't use that Enter the Infinite combo anymore.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
In my quest to find win cons in Enter the Infinite black splash Dream Halls without sticking in Progenitus, I've found two more, likely shakier win cons--Neverending Torment (one dead card maindeck, will not work if you have fewer cards in hand than your opponent has cards in his/her library) and Insidious Dreams-Psychic Spiral (will not work if you put fewer cards in your graveyard than your opponent's library size, needs counterspells or bounce to deal with graveyard hate, needs Cunning Wish into Ravenous Trap to deal with milled Emrakuls, Cunning Wish into Opportunity only half-works against 4 milled Progenitus--you almost need to go into Game 2, board in all Leyline of the Voids, and Cunning Wish into Intuition for them if necessary).
I have yet to test them, so I'm not sure how well they actually deck opponents, but finally ditching the darn Progenitus is tempting.
You have more counterspells in hand then the opponent has cards, so what's the problem?
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A little testing with Omni against the same Burn deck also shows that Enter the Infinite into Neverending Torment will not work for Omni, either (47 cards in hand vs. 51 cards in Burn's library). Back to Petals-Storm spell.