What do you think of Inquisition of Kozilek (RoE spoiler) over duress.
Also, does skeletal scrying suggested above, eats too much life to warrant use?
Inquisition of Kozilek - Keeps them off their game early on. Definitely better than duress *or* thoughtseize against zoo/burn/any fast aggro. The problem is that it doesn't hit some of the bigger threats in the format: Force of Will, Natural Order, etc. However, it does take care of guys that our removal can't (as easily) touch: Dark Confidant, Phyrexian Dreadnought, Arcbound Ravager. I'd suggest taking note of what you hit off Duress/thoughtseize for a few matches; this should give you a good feel for what you most frequently hit (or would want to hit).
Skeletal Scrying - It's not a bad idea. I haven't been able to test it yet, but it does cover two important things: Offers an opportunity to eat crap out of the grave and offers us card advantage.
Puppeteer Clique is GREAT. I came back from certain death by stealing two Baneslayers three turns in a row. It's amazing with Corpse Dance, all of the discard, everything. Excellent.
I took out the Chrome Moxen and never looked back.
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Everything is true in some sense, false in some sense, meaningless in some sense, true and false in some sense, true and meaningless in some sense, false and meaningless in some sense, and true, false, and meaningless in some sense. Repeat this 666 times and you will reach enlightenment.
In some sense. The only good fnord is a dead fnord.
Puppeteer Clique is GREAT. I came back from certain death by stealing two Baneslayers three turns in a row. It's amazing with Corpse Dance, all of the discard, everything. Excellent.
I took out the Chrome Moxen and never looked back.
What did you take out the moxes for?
@Poppele:
Suffer the Past from the RoE seems also another way to stall for time/win con to fix your gy and gain life.
I'm interested in this deck and will test it more))
Do you think 4 Carrion Feeder as sac outlet enough to support Nightmare effect? May be add 2 Thoughtpicker Witch?
Upd.: And Krovikan Horror you want to see in hand or graveyard, not on the battlefield.
have you tested momentary blink for additional nightmare or being able to stablize with the horrors themselves. or have you tested phyrexian altar for a sac outlet and activation mana for TE
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currently playing:
legacy: Doomsday, Dredge, BUG (shard less and still)
modern: storm, woo dredge, U-tron
EDH: maelstrom wanderer, Gisela, krenko, lazav, sharrum, sheoldred/xiahou dun, norin the wary, Thrax, Mimeoplasm, GW legends
This last Sunday, I was unable to get any real testing in due to a swim function that got in the way. With any luck, I'll be playing in a local event this Sunday (the 18th) with results to follow.
I just started screwing around with the white splash, and it's kinda funny. Enlightened tutor seems fairly narrow, but it grabs some of the vital pieces early on. It also grabs Sculler in a pinch, and offers a new way to sideboard. Yosei is a test spot, but the ability to lock an opponent out can randomly end games. Angel of Despair takes Terastodon's spot, as it's fully castable in this build.
Here, you're able to abuse the brownscale loop in the main deck to offer a way to stall against zoo. The dredge offers an additional way to use Tortured Existence, and a way to (admittedly weakly) dig for a Corpse Dance target. Witness is a test slot, but a way to grab back countered Existences and Dances seems like a solid choice.
I haven't been able to fully test these builds, so [I'm willing to bet] they're not optimized. Testing to follow, as well as matchup analysis.
I think a good sideboard card for this deck could be Sundering Titan.
@ Poppelseed I have been testing a W/B version almost identical to the one you posted except I have been trying out two cards those being Karmic Guide and Nezumi Bone-Reader.
I think a good sideboard card for this deck could be Sundering Titan.
@ Poppelseed I have been testing a W/B version almost identical to the one you posted except I have been trying out two cards those being Karmic Guide and Nezumi Bone-Reader.
I looked at Karmic Guide and I'm still tempted to try it out, but why Bone-Reader? You can only use his ability as a sorcery:-/
As for Sundering Titan, I don't hate it. I'm always concerned with playing him, mostly because he eventually eats your own lands. At least with Terastodon, you can intentionally eat your own lands to make guys.
Didn't realize that it can only be played as a sorcery. That is my mistake. No one has called me on it. That is going to be taken out.
Unfortunately, every non-sliver creature permanent with an activated ability that causes discard is only played as a sorcery. You do have something like Thoughtpicker Witch, or can go with one of the artifacts. Although they don't give you a way to force discard, you do have other fun stuff to play with.
When I get time I will type the list I run, but I would also recommend run Phyrexian Tower and High Market.
This looks like an interesting card from rise.
Thought Gorger
Creature - Horror
Trample
When Thought Gorger enters the battlefield, put a +1/+1 counter on it for each card in your hand. If you do, discard your hand.
When Thought Gorger leaves the battlefield, draw a card for each +1/+1 counter on it.
2/2
It might be good as a one of for drawing purposes and it helps fill the graveyard.
As for High Market and Phyrexian Tower, seems possible to have a inclusion of 2 each, though the wasteland thing might or might not be an issue here.
True, but I a testing a W/B build. A smart player will go for the Dual Lands before he goes for the Utility lands, because those lands are useless if I can't cast anything. And if they do go for the utility land all they did was cancel a one for one and then I can still cast a the creatures. I was just looking for another form of sacrifice and this one is uncountable at that.
I run 2 High markets and one tower, I only run one tower because I have bad luck and I hate drawing two legendary lands.
Quote from TokoboTenkai »
Some folks might have pointed out before me, Volrath's Stronghold could be another inclusion in the deck.
I agree with this, I feel a one of this as well would be good. This also helps when we Corpse Dance as well.
I made a few small changes to my list, and I'm LOVING it so far. I added some different big theats to reanimate, in Kokusho, Angel of Despair, and Abyssal Persecutor, since I never liked Terastodon at all. Kokusho has been excellent, AoD sitting in the graveyard is already a threat, and I didn't get to try Persecutor yet. I also split up my Corpse Dances with Recurring Nightmare, to give it a try. I only got to use it once, and it was great. It's cheaper than Corpse Dance with buyback, and is an extra sac outlet for things brought back with CD and Puppeteer Clique. I don't know if it's GOOD or not, but it worked the one time I got it to go. Yosei looks like tons of fun.
I still hate Chrome Mox in this deck. I never really want FAST mana, I want consistency. I should add a 23rd land, actually, since I have some Bayous for green sb cards.
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Everything is true in some sense, false in some sense, meaningless in some sense, true and false in some sense, true and meaningless in some sense, false and meaningless in some sense, and true, false, and meaningless in some sense. Repeat this 666 times and you will reach enlightenment.
In some sense. The only good fnord is a dead fnord.
Without those chrome moxes, how are you faring against aggro MU? i never seem to be able to get enough mana to get the engine running, like some posts above, this deck doesn't do much in the early few turns.
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This should help people out who are addressing me in further posts: My name is Tenkai. It's not Tokobo. Thank you. =)
I hesitate to post a list because I haven't tuned much at all after changing a lot around. A fast start from a competent aggro deck is a problem without a great draw. Three mana is enough to Shriekmaw every turn, and Golgari Brownscale helps a LOT. I have two in the board.
I think Chrome Mox may just not fit my play style. This deck feels very controlling to me, and I always feel bad about giving up that card for such a minor advantage. Rarely was I able to do much earlier than I otherwise would with Chrome Mox. I'd usually rather just wait a turn and not lose the spell.
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Everything is true in some sense, false in some sense, meaningless in some sense, true and false in some sense, true and meaningless in some sense, false and meaningless in some sense, and true, false, and meaningless in some sense. Repeat this 666 times and you will reach enlightenment.
In some sense. The only good fnord is a dead fnord.
Well, bored out of my skull and attempting to stall studying/homework, I went through Rise of the Eldrazi and pulled out some notable cards that may or may not have a spot in this deck. This is not necessarily a complete list.
The Eldrazi - The eldrazi, if played, will be used almost entirely as a Corpse Dance target. Of these, I believe my favorite is It That Betrays. It has a decent body and anihilator 2 (which isn't the best out there, but isn't awful), but it's the other ability which I fell for. This effect also makes Fleshbag quite effective, and can both set up a quick ramp for us (them sacrificing lands, etc.) and offer a way to steal additional threats.
The other eldrazi that may fit is Pathrazer of Ulamog. It has a smaller body than It, but is harder to block and hits one more permanent. Also, though rarely relevant, it does cost 1 less.
The non-creature eldrazi have no place in this deck. The bigger eldrazi are much harder to abuse, as they have the graveyard raping clause, and the other non-grave hating ones are substantially worse than the ones listed above.
Inquisition of Kozilek - A big card up for discussion for legacy as a whole. Is it better or worse than duress/thoughtseize? I can't answer that for sure just yet.
Pelakka Wurm - Decent body (with trample), gains you life when it hits play, draws you a card when you sacrifice it... I'm quite intrigued, and I'm certainly going to be testing this one.
Those were the bigger ones that I noticed. I didn't see anything amazing to a point where it can replace any key parts of the deck, but some are actually half-decent. If I missed anything or you saw something that you want to mention, just post it up here.
Edit: I didn't get to play legacy yesterday; the prerelease overshadowed it. Some testing tonight, and tournament on Sunday.
I think Artisan of Kozilek and Thought Gorger are two other cards to look at.
Thought Gorger looks interesting, but I'm curious as to how Artisan of Kozilek is better than It or Pathrazer. Yes, it does have the "when you cast" ability, but how often will that feasibly happen?
I play tested with Artisan and Pathrazer a couple of nights (haven't tested It That Betrays) and I can say I prefer Pathrazer. Most games I don't actually get to hardcast Artisan, being that my GY doesn't have much stuff to grab something out, instead a Pathrazer with haste with being hard to block and annihilator, was quite good, however another thing to note is that our creature slots are already quite tight, replacing stuff/SB is also another issue)
As for thought gorger, I reckon we can find something more better for card draw than it.
Also, I'm having issues with StP/PtE in response to sac-ing the creatures (in addition to the gy hate that I'm playing against), what do you guys do in such scenario?
I also tried playing against thopter depths (extended) and jund (standard) and had quite some stalling issues too (maybe that's because i'm running the mono black builds, with utility lands+urborg, tomb of yawgmoth).
@poppeleseed: How goes your Tourney on Sunday?
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This should help people out who are addressing me in further posts: My name is Tenkai. It's not Tokobo. Thank you. =)
Thanks Darth Monkey
What do you think of Inquisition of Kozilek (RoE spoiler) over duress.
Also, does skeletal scrying suggested above, eats too much life to warrant use?
As for your SB with the green splash, is 4 kinda of little to grab the enchantment hate?
Legacy Competitive
BUReanimatorUB
RUSneaky ShowUR(Dismantled)
GBUReanimatorUBG(Retired)
(Pre-Mystical Tutor Banning)
{RIP:July 1, 2010}
Legacy Casual
UWBag Of TricksWU
GWEnchantressWG(Budget/In construction)
WSoul SistersW
Legacy Casual - Retired
UBT.E.S. - The EGG-pic StormBU
BGrave ExistenceB
Sig by Me =)
I haven't been able to test against zoo. I've only been doing my testing IRL (mostly due to my contempt towards
Inquisition of Kozilek - Keeps them off their game early on. Definitely better than duress *or* thoughtseize against zoo/burn/any fast aggro. The problem is that it doesn't hit some of the bigger threats in the format: Force of Will, Natural Order, etc. However, it does take care of guys that our removal can't (as easily) touch: Dark Confidant, Phyrexian Dreadnought, Arcbound Ravager. I'd suggest taking note of what you hit off Duress/thoughtseize for a few matches; this should give you a good feel for what you most frequently hit (or would want to hit).
Skeletal Scrying - It's not a bad idea. I haven't been able to test it yet, but it does cover two important things: Offers an opportunity to eat crap out of the grave and offers us card advantage.
Have any questions or concerns? Come take a dip in my pool.
I took out the Chrome Moxen and never looked back.
In some sense. The only good fnord is a dead fnord.
What did you take out the moxes for?
@Poppele:
Suffer the Past from the RoE seems also another way to stall for time/win con to fix your gy and gain life.
Legacy Competitive
BUReanimatorUB
RUSneaky ShowUR(Dismantled)
GBUReanimatorUBG(Retired)
(Pre-Mystical Tutor Banning)
{RIP:July 1, 2010}
Legacy Casual
UWBag Of TricksWU
GWEnchantressWG(Budget/In construction)
WSoul SistersW
Legacy Casual - Retired
UBT.E.S. - The EGG-pic StormBU
BGrave ExistenceB
Sig by Me =)
Do you think 4 Carrion Feeder as sac outlet enough to support Nightmare effect? May be add 2 Thoughtpicker Witch?
Upd.: And Krovikan Horror you want to see in hand or graveyard, not on the battlefield.
But all relevant cards I found is already mentioned Undead Gladiator and Dredge.
legacy: Doomsday, Dredge, BUG (shard less and still)
modern: storm, woo dredge, U-tron
EDH: maelstrom wanderer, Gisela, krenko, lazav, sharrum, sheoldred/xiahou dun, norin the wary, Thrax, Mimeoplasm, GW legends
Either Countertop Progenitus or Geddon Staxx.
But in all seriousness, probably something like this:
4 Scrubland
4 Marsh Flat
1 Plains
4 Chrome Mox
3 Shriekmaw
1 Yosei, the Morning Star
1 Puppeteer Clique
3 Krovikan Horror
1 Faceless Butcher
1 Fleshbag Marauder
4 Carrion Feeder
2 Tidehollow Sculler
2 Tombstalker
1 Angel of Despair
4 Tortured Existence
3 Corpse Dance
3 Buried Alive
3 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
I just started screwing around with the white splash, and it's kinda funny. Enlightened tutor seems fairly narrow, but it grabs some of the vital pieces early on. It also grabs Sculler in a pinch, and offers a new way to sideboard. Yosei is a test spot, but the ability to lock an opponent out can randomly end games. Angel of Despair takes Terastodon's spot, as it's fully castable in this build.
Or this
4 Bayou
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Forest
4 Chrome Mox
3 Shriekmaw
1 Terastodon
1 Puppeteer Clique
3 Krovikan Horror
1 Faceless Butcher
1 Fleshbag Marauder
4 Carrion Feeder
2 Mesmeric Fiend
2 Tombstalker
2 Golgari Brownscale
2 Eternal Witness
3 Corpse Dance
3 Buried Alive
3 Thoughtseize
3 Hymn to Tourach
Here, you're able to abuse the brownscale loop in the main deck to offer a way to stall against zoo. The dredge offers an additional way to use Tortured Existence, and a way to (admittedly weakly) dig for a Corpse Dance target. Witness is a test slot, but a way to grab back countered Existences and Dances seems like a solid choice.
I haven't been able to fully test these builds, so [I'm willing to bet] they're not optimized. Testing to follow, as well as matchup analysis.
-Jon Poppele
Have any questions or concerns? Come take a dip in my pool.
@ Poppelseed I have been testing a W/B version almost identical to the one you posted except I have been trying out two cards those being Karmic Guide and Nezumi Bone-Reader.
I looked at Karmic Guide and I'm still tempted to try it out, but why Bone-Reader? You can only use his ability as a sorcery:-/
As for Sundering Titan, I don't hate it. I'm always concerned with playing him, mostly because he eventually eats your own lands. At least with Terastodon, you can intentionally eat your own lands to make guys.
Have any questions or concerns? Come take a dip in my pool.
Unfortunately, every non-sliver
creaturepermanent with an activated ability that causes discard is only played as a sorcery. You do have something like Thoughtpicker Witch, or can go with one of the artifacts. Although they don't give you a way to force discard, you do have other fun stuff to play with.Have any questions or concerns? Come take a dip in my pool.
This looks like an interesting card from rise.
Thought Gorger
Creature - Horror
Trample
When Thought Gorger enters the battlefield, put a +1/+1 counter on it for each card in your hand. If you do, discard your hand.
When Thought Gorger leaves the battlefield, draw a card for each +1/+1 counter on it.
2/2
It might be good as a one of for drawing purposes and it helps fill the graveyard.
It could help for CA, not sure how it fares compared to scrying though.
As for High Market and Phyrexian Tower, seems possible to have a inclusion of 2 each, though the wasteland thing might or might not be an issue here.
Some folks might have pointed out before me, Volrath's Stronghold could be another inclusion in the deck.
Legacy Competitive
BUReanimatorUB
RUSneaky ShowUR(Dismantled)
GBUReanimatorUBG(Retired)
(Pre-Mystical Tutor Banning)
{RIP:July 1, 2010}
Legacy Casual
UWBag Of TricksWU
GWEnchantressWG(Budget/In construction)
WSoul SistersW
Legacy Casual - Retired
UBT.E.S. - The EGG-pic StormBU
BGrave ExistenceB
Sig by Me =)
True, but I a testing a W/B build. A smart player will go for the Dual Lands before he goes for the Utility lands, because those lands are useless if I can't cast anything. And if they do go for the utility land all they did was cancel a one for one and then I can still cast a the creatures. I was just looking for another form of sacrifice and this one is uncountable at that.
I run 2 High markets and one tower, I only run one tower because I have bad luck and I hate drawing two legendary lands.
I agree with this, I feel a one of this as well would be good. This also helps when we Corpse Dance as well.
Here is the list I am running,
[
2 Karmic Guide
3 Tidehollow Sculler
2 Faceless Butcher
1 Angel of Despair
2 Krovikan Horror
2 Thoughtpicker Witch
3 Shriekmaw
1 Yosei, the morning star
1 Puppeteer Clique
3 Thoughtseize
2 Duress
4 Corpse Dance
4 Buried Alive
3 Tortured Existence
1 Recurring Nightmare
6 Swamps
4 Plains
2 High Market
4 Scrubland
1 Volrath's Stronghold
4 Marsh Flat
1 Sundering Titan
1 Fleshbag Marauder
4 Sacred Ground
The only thing that needs explaining is the Sacred Ground. I deal with a lot of land destruction and so I run this. It also negates wasteland locks.
I still hate Chrome Mox in this deck. I never really want FAST mana, I want consistency. I should add a 23rd land, actually, since I have some Bayous for green sb cards.
In some sense. The only good fnord is a dead fnord.
What is the list you're running?
Without those chrome moxes, how are you faring against aggro MU? i never seem to be able to get enough mana to get the engine running, like some posts above, this deck doesn't do much in the early few turns.
Legacy Competitive
BUReanimatorUB
RUSneaky ShowUR(Dismantled)
GBUReanimatorUBG(Retired)
(Pre-Mystical Tutor Banning)
{RIP:July 1, 2010}
Legacy Casual
UWBag Of TricksWU
GWEnchantressWG(Budget/In construction)
WSoul SistersW
Legacy Casual - Retired
UBT.E.S. - The EGG-pic StormBU
BGrave ExistenceB
Sig by Me =)
I think Chrome Mox may just not fit my play style. This deck feels very controlling to me, and I always feel bad about giving up that card for such a minor advantage. Rarely was I able to do much earlier than I otherwise would with Chrome Mox. I'd usually rather just wait a turn and not lose the spell.
In some sense. The only good fnord is a dead fnord.
The Eldrazi - The eldrazi, if played, will be used almost entirely as a Corpse Dance target. Of these, I believe my favorite is It That Betrays. It has a decent body and anihilator 2 (which isn't the best out there, but isn't awful), but it's the other ability which I fell for. This effect also makes Fleshbag quite effective, and can both set up a quick ramp for us (them sacrificing lands, etc.) and offer a way to steal additional threats.
The other eldrazi that may fit is Pathrazer of Ulamog. It has a smaller body than It, but is harder to block and hits one more permanent. Also, though rarely relevant, it does cost 1 less.
The non-creature eldrazi have no place in this deck. The bigger eldrazi are much harder to abuse, as they have the graveyard raping clause, and the other non-grave hating ones are substantially worse than the ones listed above.
Inquisition of Kozilek - A big card up for discussion for legacy as a whole. Is it better or worse than duress/thoughtseize? I can't answer that for sure just yet.
Pelakka Wurm - Decent body (with trample), gains you life when it hits play, draws you a card when you sacrifice it... I'm quite intrigued, and I'm certainly going to be testing this one.
Conquering Manticore - We sacrifice ☺☺☺☺. He steals ☺☺☺☺.
Those were the bigger ones that I noticed. I didn't see anything amazing to a point where it can replace any key parts of the deck, but some are actually half-decent. If I missed anything or you saw something that you want to mention, just post it up here.
Edit: I didn't get to play legacy yesterday; the prerelease overshadowed it. Some testing tonight, and tournament on Sunday.
Have any questions or concerns? Come take a dip in my pool.
Thought Gorger looks interesting, but I'm curious as to how Artisan of Kozilek is better than It or Pathrazer. Yes, it does have the "when you cast" ability, but how often will that feasibly happen?
Have any questions or concerns? Come take a dip in my pool.
As for thought gorger, I reckon we can find something more better for card draw than it.
Also, I'm having issues with StP/PtE in response to sac-ing the creatures (in addition to the gy hate that I'm playing against), what do you guys do in such scenario?
I also tried playing against thopter depths (extended) and jund (standard) and had quite some stalling issues too (maybe that's because i'm running the mono black builds, with utility lands+urborg, tomb of yawgmoth).
@poppeleseed: How goes your Tourney on Sunday?
Legacy Competitive
BUReanimatorUB
RUSneaky ShowUR(Dismantled)
GBUReanimatorUBG(Retired)
(Pre-Mystical Tutor Banning)
{RIP:July 1, 2010}
Legacy Casual
UWBag Of TricksWU
GWEnchantressWG(Budget/In construction)
WSoul SistersW
Legacy Casual - Retired
UBT.E.S. - The EGG-pic StormBU
BGrave ExistenceB
Sig by Me =)